La Cabra de Mayo (May 2024 scapegoat blame thread)

@xobzoo Wait, I have to do something? Is it too late to blame you retroactively for giving me another job?

@DLPanther Well, you were voted in under my reign, so I guess it’s probably my fault.

But since someone was nice enough to help me figure out what my job was, I should go ahead and pass it along to you, too. (I guess I have to make a link to it, don’t I.)

@DLPanther @xobzoo I will note that there have been goats that basically ghoatsted their way through their reign. It’s not unheard-of. But some heckling should be expected for anyone who’s actually visible on the forums but missing from their Goat thread. And our Mediocrebot has also been the Goat once, courtesy of some hastily written code to autogenerate its responses to Blames and Unblames. But nobody thinks you’ll be exactly like any prior Goat.

@werehatrack why would we call them a bastard? Thats not very nice

@tinamarie1974 There are many translations of the title, and yours is well down into the slang area - and pretty far off of the most common usage that I have personally seen. “Oye! Cabrón! Como esta?” is a very common greeting among men who know each other well. If the negative connotation is intended, it is conveyed by the manner of expression. As a strictly literal translation, “cabrón” is very explicity “male goat”, and “cabra” is female, which our esteemed scapegoat is not. But the other terms for a male goat are far less recognizable to English speakers with only a smattering of Spanish; of them, chivo and macho cabrio are probably the most common, would you recognize either? Particularly given that “cabrio” is best known as a synonym for “convertible”?

However, your point is precisely why I opened the debate. I know which way my experience tells me to vote, but I’m not the only one here. Input is important.

@tinamarie1974 @werehatrack “Cabra” would be more accurate by your definition, @tohar1 can vouch for that via my somewhat stalkerish Meh gift exchange card.

@werehatrack well, I am well aware of everything you said. Having worked in MX for a few years I heard the slang and proper utilization of the word.

But a spade is a spade.

It means bastard and in an informal setting it is a greeting amongst friends. I dont feel that I know our new goat, or most of the people on this site for that matter, well enough to use that type of informal slang with them. If someone here referred to me in that way I would be offended.

A cabrio (m)/cabria(f) would be the correct term for goat. Why would we call the current scapegoat anything different?

@DLPanther @tinamarie1974 @tohar1 Ah. Cabra it is, then!

@DLPanther @tinamarie1974 @tohar1 @werehatrack Well now I’m wondering about “cabrio” vs “cabro” (and similarly cabria/cabra). Are they equal? Not equal? Regional?
My quick search online has not yielded very meaningful results…

@DLPanther @tohar1 @werehatrack @xobzoo where I worked it was cabrio/cabria. Could be regional. I can check w a few friends I am still in touch with to see if they know.

@DLPanther @tohar1 @werehatrack sorry for the delay in response. Just been super busy over here getting ready for Charlie’s surgery tomorrow

So I was able to speak w a friend who was born and lived in Mexico near the Nuevo Laredo border until just before she was a teenager. She and her family immigrated to TX. She and I use to work together in Mexico.

1. So as it relates to El Cabron, she stated that if the person is a a close friend or family member it is acceptable slang. Beyond that she would neve use it, as it would be seen as an insult.

2. All the various goat translations. She has no idea why there are so many, coming from N Mexico she would use Chivo/chiva. So there is some more confusion for you. She said it could be a regional thing, but she was not sure.

Not sure if that helped, but

/giphy the more you know

@tinamarie1974 That pretty much lines up with what I had found digging around, and yeah, it looks like the chiva/chivo translation is somewhat regional. So are some of the others. This does not surprise me, given the number of terms that are perfectly innocuous in one regional dialect of Spanish and rather not innocuous in others. There’s even a popular candy which has two different names depending upon the nation in which it’s going to be sold, because the original one turns out to be a regional synonym for genitalia in another one. I forget what it is, and it was in one of those lists of questionable assertions, but that one checked out.

@werehatrack well as long as someone learned something it was worth it I guess

@tohar1 There are tons of Anglos in Texas who are convinced that the only thing they really need to know in Spanish is “Dos mas.” Some of us think that’s a trifle short-sighted. A slightly greater number believes that it is also wise to know “Donde estas los baños?”, which is useless if the reply cannot be comprehended.

@werehatrack Apparently I am fluent in Spanish! “Two More?” & “Where’s the damn bathroom?” both came to mind reading your statement…Sammy Hagar’s song “Mas Tequila” is how I remembered the first one, but not sure how the second translation came to be…

@tohar1 @werehatrack I mostly know swear words in Spanish. That was from years ago taking kids in jail canoeing across the state of FL. I guess the torture from that was bad enough that over half of them did not commit a crime again .

Actually we worked on a lot of life skills such as actions have consequences, personal growth issues, giving them a feeling of accomplishment when doing things like ropes courses, starting fires in the rain, etc. A lot of that “training” was useful when I adopted a kid nearly 10 who came with a ton of issues (actually still has a ton of issues).

@Kidsandliz @werehatrack Dude! That is awesome! Seriously, my hat’s off to those who can do this kind of almost “Scared Straight” activities, hopefully making a difference in their lives! Good On You!!!

POPSOCKETS! SPROCKETS! DAVY CROCKETT! AWESOME!

@tohar1 As my old pappy used to say, just don’t call me late for dinner.

@Kidsandliz I don’t recall where it was done or exactly when, but I know that there was a study that concluded that the more you could keep kids out of jail, but in a supervised environment that included productive activities, the more likely they were to straighten up and not be a problem in the future. Jail, on the other hand, hardened them into repeat offenders reliably. So, really, you were just doing a good job of getting them involved with the rest of the world instead of being on an adversarial footing with it all the time.

@werehatrack A lot of what we did was try to make them willing to try what they perceived as hard things that they couldn’t do; that they are afraid to try to do; that has a scary “unknown” factor, etc. and not just give up due to negative self talk, fear of failure… You break down things like that into achievable pieces and their sense of accomplishment skyrockets as they are successful with each step - each step they thought was impossible so didn’t even want to try to begin with.

They then look back and realize, for example, they canoed across the entire state of Florida, or climbed a 35’ cliff, or saw alligators and poisonous snakes up close and personal and lived. Many of the kids would talk about how they felt like they were failures at everything and didn’t want to even try; that the problem helped them figure out how to make themselves to do things they were scared of, or didn’t want to do or even try and how good it felt when they actually did them.

The catch, of course, is that real life is not set up with the kinds of supports/training wheels we had in place. If they weren’t placed into a post jail setting after the program that reinforced the “lessons” they learned and worked with them to continue strengthening those fledgling skills we taught them the let down after “graduating” from our program was pretty severe.

We had one kid recidivate on purpose because she wanted placed back into our program due to how good it made her feel about herself. Unfortunately our program was a one shot deal. That was really sad.

@Kidsandliz @werehatrack
Well that study all makes SO MUCH SENSE, and hits home hard!
It’s much easier for that pre teen/teenage brain to get into trouble, go to jail/juvenile detention and fall in line with the other kids delinquent mindset rather than make that other choice of working through their tough issues and DO THE HARD WORK in order to get through to the other side of those terrible ugly feelings that are making them act out in the first place! This whole subject hits home hard.
I can still remember the smell of standing in the grossest water up to my knees on the hottest August days cleaning out weeds one by one.
I could write a book here! No worries, I’ll spare you!

BTW… KUDOS to @Kidsandliz for taking a chance and choosing to love and adopt!

They’re safe to handle but frightened, and there may be a third and/or fourth that I have not caught yet. The momcat is in the other trap, and she’s a brownish agouti, and nonaggressive but terrified. I suspect that the dadcat is an orange bullseye, but there’s at least one other strong contender (and it could be both, these are cats.) Anyway, the kittens are weaned, so mom goes to get spayed ASAP. I think the kittens are about 8 weeks old. Hunched up, they are just a handful. I’ve handled both of them with no damage.

@werehatrack So what is it technically called when you have a hoard of cats and kittens?

@Kidsandliz A damn nuisance, of the self-inflicted nature? A dumbass move? More work than I need right now?

@Kidsandliz And now I have confirmed the existence of Kitten3 and Kitten4, but neither has been trapped yet. Working on it. Multiple dammits. I need to find an adoption system to hand these off into, but I know that the nearest one that’s not overloaded already is probably going to be no farther south than Kansas.

@Kidsandliz @werehatrack
Well, @unksol is probably going to feel a little better not being the only one …

@werehatrack yeahhhh…. Kitten season is late this year.

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @werehatrack I hear New Hampshire is always short. Maybe North instead of South?

My issue was obviously not getting them to the vet. The original litter would have been fine here if the boys had lost their balls. Mom would still walk around me but that’s ok. So I’m far worse.

That being said, I don’t see anything wrong with TNR if in the country/everybody’s fixed/Mom has the skills to teach them and they are already functional. Or better a farmer who could use some barn cats/will provide food/water/shelter. Not every cat needs to be inside. They do need to stop reproducing since across the country we have a bit of an excess.

This all started cause I thought I was going to catch a ground hog or possum coming out from under the garage and didn’t want to block them in to die. But needed to close the hole. Wasnt expecting cats. Then didn’t know if they were alone.

@unksol I’m in Houston. We get litters pretty much year-round, so the shelters are always oversupplied. My grouse is that to find a shelter that would affirmatively want these, I’m probably looking at someplage in Iowa or farther north at this point in the year.

@werehatrack but Texas is large. If everyone got fixed. Cats on a farm good. At that point they are just farm animals that like skritches. Hopefully no one wants to shoot them

There should probably be some sort of network for that

@unksol The problem is coyotes.

@werehatrack mmm yes. We don’t have that issue. There are no predators. Although hence the “shelter” part. You know if there was a place in the pole barn for them to go. They would find it. I’m sure they can outrun one. But with both preferring nocturnal activities…

Outdoor cats are always going to have a reduced lifespan though. Can’t catch them all/make everyone be responsible. I’m clearly on the side of take in a stray but… When everything is overloaded. IDK

@unksol Coyotes catch and kill feral cats with disturbing ease, and nonferals even more so. There was one doing a particularly disturbing job of it nearby for a while, until the coyote “mysteriously vanished”. That happened not long after one family found half of their beloved pet on their front lawn one afternoon. (I will admit to being prepared to deal harshly, summarily, and very quietly with a coyote should one make the mistake of showing up here. They may have been native to the Texas forest, prairie and desert ecosystems long before European settlers arrived, but the modern urban ecosystem is emphatically NOT one in which they are native; here, they are a de facto invasive species.)

@werehatrack never had to deal with predators although everyone is inside anyway. I would have thought cats would be faster/more aware. I knew they are a problem for small dogs but… They are more domesticated and slower.

Technically cats are an invasive species too. But id probably have a rifle by the door. Cyotes in urban areas would be worse than cats.

@unksol I will not deny that cats are an invasive species, particularly given that there’s one trying to invade my lap as I type this.

@unksol @werehatrack Over the years we’ve had both inside cats and outside cats. At least a couple of the outside cats have been taken by coyotes, and one inside cat (who thought he wanted to be an outside cat) stayed out one night and also became a Happy Meal. Quite a few of our chickens wound up coyote or raccoon fodder. Country Living.
I’ve dispatched a couple of coyotes since we’ve been here, but they are wily buggers.

@macromeh @werehatrack

Google says coyotes hit 42 MPH vs 30 MPH for a cat. I did not expect that. Although if they had shelter or a tree near by… Still. That’s not good

Other than the .45 ACP I’m supersonic. But I’m sure by the time someone hears something it’s too late. And most of the time they won’t…

I guess it they cooperate/were trained to come in for food you could shut them in the barn at night.

That is how you do chickens

Cats are huge predators though. So I guess food chain? Uncomfortable reality

@macromeh @werehatrack also… At this point despite how cute they are. They are technically feral. Unless you can find someone who wants to “domesticate” or you’re going to do it. With the mom. It might be best to get her fixed and let her go. If you’re going to separate them.

They were still nursing some. But she just keeps a radius from me still so she exists but I don’t see her much/try not to bother her/she would not be a good pet so no chance to adopt her out. I tried to convince her at first with chicken etc. But she was just hungry.

Obviously lisavilolet had a different experience so. Who knows.

@macromeh @unksol The momcat is not as aggressive as most of the feral moms that I’ve had to deal with, so she might be willing to socialize. It’s all up to her, though. The kittens were immediately safe to handle when I caught them, and I doubt that I’m going to have any trouble with them as they get a few weeks older. When they get to the point where they can be fixed, then I start publicizing for adoption.

@werehatrack
WOW, what a surprise THAT must’ve been! For the BOTH of you!
At first, before I zoomed in, I was wondering how they got into a dishwasher, and how on earth did they survive a wash cycle? Not having newborn kittens for 30 years and forgetting just how tiny they are, my first thought was that they were born in there. Duh, silly me! So how old do you think they are?

@Lynnerizer I’m guessing 7 to 8 weeks; they’re weaned, and eating both gooshy and kibble, but they aren’t much bigger than Bean was when he went to his new home after I bottle-raised him. The floofy one with the white chin and feet is the friendliest, and doesn’t flinch away from scritches. The other one’s not so sure, and the momcat is still very, very unsure - but has yet to spit or swat, so there’s hope for socialization and placement. I’ll try to get a group shot later.

@tinamarie1974 Oh, yikes! When is the surgery? Poor guy. Toby is terrified of his crate too.

@Kyeh I drop him at the surgery center tomorrow for surgery and pick him up Wednesday.

@tinamarie1974
I hope it all goes very well.

@Kyeh

@tinamarie1974 Awww. I send hugs and belly rubs.

@Kyeh @tinamarie1974 Mine run when I get out the cat carrier too. I hope his surgery goes well and he heals up quickly.

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery thanks! Dropped him off this morning. He trotted right back there w the employee, which is good.

I explained the anxiety again and what I dealt w last night. For the record the crate was in the official “spot” for less than one minute and three hours later he was still on edge. The nurse was like, “oh yeah he will need sedatives. Ill make a note!”

Should get an update between 2 and 5, Im calling by 3 if I dont hear anything. Sigh…

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery I made it until 230 and decided to call. He finished surgery around 130 and is in recovery. Surgeon should be calling me after 6 to give me the particulars and to schedule his discharge for tomorrow. Sounds like he did ok!

@Kyeh @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 That’s great!!! But they should have called you when he was out of surgery like they said they would.

@Kidsandliz @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 So glad the news is positive!

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery well, they said the Vet would call likely between 2 and 5. When I called I was told that apparently he does his calls after he finishes all his surgeries for the day so likely closer to 5 or 6. We all know I am not that patient!!

@tinamarie1974 Yay. Part one check. Now breathe and get some sleep tonight.

@speediedelivery I need sleep

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery spent the evening moving my stuff downstairs as Charlie wont be able to go upstairs for a week or two. Ill sleep on the couch next to him. Everything is more or less ready.

Surgeon called. Said Charlie was a champ! Surgery went well to remove the bone, pad and some callouses that had formed. Said his foot went back together beautifully. Feeling a bit lighter after the news but I need him home with me!

Going to collect him at 11 tomorrow. It was the earliest appt I could get! Have my parents going so my dad can lift him in and out of the car. Im afraid I could drop him and hurt his foot if he wiggles

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery new GIANT crate. Hopefully this will be well received w his favorite pillow and blankets

It’s so big I think I could sleep in there with him if necessary

@Kyeh @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 That is huge! I have a photo of a then 3 or 4 year old crammed inside of a medium cat carrier. A friend of mine has a photo of his son at about 8 or 9 inside a crate that was probably close to that side. If you ever go somewhere in the car and need to crate him (well and have room for it) he will travel in comfort. I have one about 3’ tall, 4’ long and 3 or so feet wide. I put a shelf in there and my cats travel in my minivan in that (with food and dirt box).

@Kyeh @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 Glad he did well and hopefully he will heal quickly and be back to normal soon.

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery

@Kidsandliz @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 Wow! That’s a deluxe crate! I wondered if you’d have help because he’s not a small dog and you’re a small lady. Glad your Dad will be there. So nice that you’ll sleep on the couch next to Charlie. And super glad the surgery went well!

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery Thanks!!!

I have great parents. They came over tonight to help me get everythig set up. They will both go with me to collect him and be here tomorrow to make sure everything goes ok. Then nothing until the bandages come off. He gets too excited and wiggly when someone shows up ESPECIALLY my dad.

And I have to sleep down there with him. He would not do well down there in the crate alone. Would be a bad situation and I dont want him to hurt himself.

@Kidsandliz @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 Is Charlie boy home now? Is he doing okay?

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 I can empathize with poor Charlie, I will be recovering from surgery starting the afternoon of the 17th myself, and while I will probably be a less fractious patient than he is, I will be in perfect agreement with him about the desirability of having the right person at hand. My problem lies in the fact that for the first 5 days after the surgery, I will still be in the hospital. I am not looking forward to that. There are so many things about this to look forward to, but the five day stretch in the hospital isn’t any of them. Charlie, at least, will have his favorite person nearby, which I’m sure will be a great boon to him and a great comfort to both of you. May the recovery be as swift as possible and as free of hiccups as you could hope.

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery @werehatrack sorry for the delay in updates. In addition to dealing w my patient we had severe storms, tornado warnings and crazy hail. Luckily only crazy rain and wind here, but by my sister… GRAPEFRUIT sized hail and tornados!!!

Charlie improved as the day went on. He is on four different medicines and they have his foot wrapped spectacularly. As long as I can keep his bandage dry there is no need to have it changed. Will be 2 weeks and then a visit to remove the bandage and hopefully the stitches. Once the stitches come off then a soft bandage for a week or so before he is up and running again.

And he did hang with his favorite person all day, my dad. Dad was a lifesaver, carrying charlie up and down the stairs to potty all day until he was doing well enough on his own. Took a bit for him to get the hang of it.

@Kidsandliz @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 @werehatrack

his favorite person

More favorite than YOU?!!
I’m glad it went well and he seems to be recovering okay. I did wonder about the weather there - sounds like the middle of the country is all getting a beating!

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery @werehatrack he adores my dad, it is crazy. They both took a nap together on the couch today

@Kyeh @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 @werehatrack He looks like a poor sad little puppy between his bandage and head cone. Glad he is otherwise ok at home and with his favorite people. Glad you missed the worst of the storms though. You wouldn’t have needed that on top of dealing with your pup.

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery @werehatrack thanks! He is pretty chipper today. Starting to get the hang of his wrapped foot

@Kidsandliz @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 @werehatrack
Handsome as ever …

@tinamarie1974 I predict that when the dressing comes off, Charlie is going to be one hyperhappy puppy.

@werehatrack I am sure you are right, but he is already hyper and he is on sedatives. Boy has SO MUCH energy!!!

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @speediedelivery @tinamarie1974 @werehatrack
As usual, late to the party!
I hadn’t even seen our beloved CharlieDoggo was going for surgery.
Poor Charlie, I’m sorry! I’m so glad everything went well and he’s settling into recovery mode. He’s lucky to have such a good momma, sleeping on the couch by his side, prepared to jump in if necessary isn’t something everyone would do! Jus sayen…
Your family is wonderful! It’s terrific how CharlieDoggo is treated and LOVED just like any two legged grandson!
I’ll be saying prayers for a seamless recovery, for both of you!

BTW…
Even with the dreaded cone of shame he’s still as handsome as ever!

@tinamarie1974 suggest putting a T-shirt or something with your scent in it inside the crate. That always makes an animal feel more comfortable in a scary environment.

@Lynnerizer, thank you from both Charlie and myself! He seems to be doing pretty good and although he doesnt like the crate he is a good boi once I get him in there!

So sorry to hear about your colonprep debacle. Absolutely terrible. Hoping second time is a charm!!

@StORMcAT444 thanks for the recommendation. The only thing that seems to help is my physical proximity. Charlie is a rescue and something happened before I adopted him. He is very triggered by crates. As long as I am right there he will fall asleep. His anti-anxiety meds dial it back, but do not resolve the issue.

@Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 @kyeh @speedydelivery Taking Charlie in bright and early tomorrow to get rebandaged. How does he already have a hole?!?!??!?!

The surgery was like, well he has an appt on the 20th to have them removed. Maybe just wait. It might be ok

Then, we’ll the techs have left. You can come to the ER but you will be waiting up to five hours.

My response was if that was my only choice to be on the lookout, I’ll be there in 30 min or less!!!

An elusive tech (remember they already left) called me back as I was jumping in the car to ask if I would wait until tomorrow morning and she would make an appt and do it personally.

Let’s hope this next bandage lasts more than 2 days

@Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 @tinamarie1974 Oh, no!!! They’d better put on more layers or some sort of a guard this time, huh? Sorry to hear about this but hope it all goes well.

@Kyeh @Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 yeah they cant do a guard because dogs sweat through their feet so it needs to be breathable. More layers, however, seems like a great idea.

@Kyeh @Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 @tinamarie1974 This sounds like it will be a fun 10 days if you need to do this every 2 days.

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 K&L that is my exact concern!!!

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 and we woke up to diarrhea. Cleaned him up as best I could to get him to the vet. They gave him a bath and rebandaged him. Mom came over and helped me disinfect the house top to bottom and all that is left is the sheets, blankets, pillows that were soiled.

I am tired

@Kidsandliz @Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 @tinamarie1974 Oh noooo. I hope that isn’t going to last! Was it from the medications?

@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Lynnerizer @StORMcAT444 they think so. Had me stop giving him capeofen and he is taking pepcid ac now to help get his gut right.

@tinamarie1974 I sure hope that helps, for both of you.

@werehatrack thank you

@werehatrack Hope it all goes well and the insurance problem really does get solved.

@werehatrack
Hope you have internet while in the hospital so you can keep up with the inevitable Mehrathon then, plus keep us updated.
Also, Is your crate ready for when you get home?

@phendrick I’m still working on the virtual crate, and I’m told that the hospital has wifi. We shall see. What I am less than thrilled about is five days of that hospital’s food. If it’s the same as the provender at the identically-branded facility nearest my house, it will be incredibly flavorless. I swear, they must have hired the reincarnation of the person who ran the Dade County Schools lunch program in the '60s, as that is the only other place I’ve seen beef that approached the level of cardboardiness they regularly exceeded while my now-deceased partner was there. The fare at the county hospital was better. The county’s grub was just obviously low-bidder, but the stuff my S.O. was fed clearly was the result of paying extra to do the work to extract everything from it that might have made it pleasant to eat. I’m planning to smuggle seasonings in my laptop case in self-defense. I’m hoping to be the beneficiary of some cake hidden inside a gift package of machinist’s files and chisels, as well.

@phendrick @werehatrack Can you get family and friends to just bring things in for you? Will you be on a restricted diet? If not, it seems like they shouldn’t object to some care packages.

@werehatrack Recommended (not necessarily from A’zon)
https://www.amazon.com/Cholula-Original-Sauce-Gallon-64oz/dp/B00I335BY6/ref=sr_1_6_pp

https://www.amazon.com/Tony-Chachere-Creole-Seasoning-Original/dp/B00YS8UG0E/ref=sr_1_1_sspa
Those sizes should do it and make you a hero to others incarcerated there.
I use one or the other on just about every meal.
And keep the bed pan handy or at least have a
walker within reach.

@werehatrack To fight boredom, you can follow my lead, as an inquiring mind and born button-pusher. More than a dozen years ago, they held me hostage for almost two weeks and had me on monitors and i.v. drips (antibiotics). The drip was from a formidable piece of equipment at my bedside that was running a program. i noticed it had quit long before it ran out. Figured it was a programming error. Looking it over, there was a user manual inside its bowels. Pretty simple to reset the timer program and get it going to deliver the whole bag to me. Nurses gave me a good scolding when they figured out what i had done, but admitted there had been an error. What are they gonna do, kick a patient out?

@Kyeh @phendrick In theory, according to the surgeon, I should have no dietary restrictions after the surgery. In practice, unless I can get something smuggled, I’ll be on a “nothing edible” diet until I get out of that place. (The surgeon seems to think that the hospital’s food is okay, but I suspect that this reflects his having the staff cafeteria food as an option rather than any direct experience with what is foisted off on the captives.)

@phendrick @werehatrack Hospital food… When I had my second breast cancer surgery I had no interest in food and so mom was going to eat it for dinner instead. Except it was not possible to cut the pork chop. You could have broken a window with it. I am sure it if was dropped it would have clattered or bounced.

@Kidsandliz I have to wonder if the potential for damage from dropped food is part of why the floor in most of the rooms seems like it’s armored. I think I encountered that same pork chop while Lee was in the hospital.

@phendrick A smaller bottle of Cholula is probably a good idea, and I have a shaker of Tabasco salt that I think I can get past the sentries as well. Also, I’m going to bring a shaker of TrueLime and one of TrueLemon to make the icewater less boring. Maybe a few packets of my favorite drink mix, too.

@werehatrack I use those, except for the “Tabasco salt” that I hadn’t ever noticed. Does it taste like the actual Tobasco sauce (which I don’t care for the flavor of - that’s why I’m keen on the Cholula)? And agree on the TrueLs when not wanting a sweetened beverage.

This’ll also be a good time for you to figure out the Rubik’s cubes, if you’ve yet to master those, even the Skewb (which is simpler than the Rubiks, but for some reason really messed with my head spatially). And of course to re-read all the 900+ page Great Books of Literature such as Moby Dick, Don Quixote, War and Peace, Crime and Punishment, and the whole Harry Potter series. Take your e-reader. Or just figure out quantum mechanics and of course follow with quantum computers.

Else if excessive page-turning isn’t in your future, just lie back and contemplate and solve either the Twin Prime Conjecture or Goldbach’s Conjecture. How hard can these be, they just involve integers like we use every day! (Probably) don’t even need to work with so-called imaginary numbers. (Thinking Fermat’s technique of infinite descent might be the key to one of these.) Fame & possibly fortune await, for just a few days’ efforts.

@phendrick I have already committed the egregious error of rereading most of the Discworld books over the past month, and all of the Vorkosigans over the last couple of months. There’s always Charlie Stross to revisit, of course. And Seanan McGuire, both under that name and the other one, and I’ll probably bring along the hardcopy stuff by T. Kingfisher (the text-efforts nom de voyage of Ursula Vernon.)

@phendrick @werehatrack The last time I spent time in a hospital bed (>30 years ago), I was on a pain killer IV drip (morphine or similar) and it made my vision blurry enough that I had a hard time reading. Fortunately (I guess) it also caused me to sleep a lot, but there were still many boring hours with nothing but crappy daytime TV to distract me.

@macromeh @werehatrack “crappy daytime TV” – what were you being punished for?

@macromeh @phendrick The TV’s resolution has gotten better and the content has gotten even worse.

@phendrick @werehatrack
Apparently
TV’s resolution x constitution = a constant

@phendrick @werehatrack

“crappy daytime TV” – what were you being punished for

Attempting to defy the Law of Gravity.

@macromeh That’s what roofers and tree trimmers are for.

@werehatrack Unfortunately, there weren’t any of either around to catch my fall.

@macromeh @phendrick @werehatrack

The TV’s resolution has gotten better and the content has gotten even worse.

That’s why streaming was invented!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@chienfou @phendrick @werehatrack
So we can watch crappy content in better resolution?

@macromeh
No… so you can watch whatever you want (including old shows if that’s your thing) pretty much whenever you want. If you can’t think of ANYTHING that has EVER been on TV that you like I am sorry for your loss.

@Lynnerizer On Thursday at noon, I will have the privilege of starting that same prep. It’s required for the surgery that I’m going to have on Friday morning. I’m so thrilled. I’m sure you can tell.

@Lynnerizer too late for you but for someone else in the future, if you get the big jug of prep ask for unflavored. It’s better to drink the ocean than the worlds worst margarita.

@DLPanther @Lynnerizer And don’t get tempted by those giant horse pills Sutab because you only drink water. I was given them as a default once. While they work fine and drinking, I think it was 3L of water each time you take 12 of them (and they are incredibly hard to swallow as they are huge, and if I remember correctly, not coated) the cramps, gas, and horrific nausea and extreme stomach pain was the worst I had ever had. I was having an endoscopy at the same time and the entire lining of my stomach was incredibly irritated (which was not on the potential diagnosis list for why I was having that done). Some people like them but clearly they have not experienced much from the side effect list like I had.

@DLPanther Actually, it’s not too late so I THANK YOU for the BEST ADVICE EVER!
YAY GOAT!
Since the prep was a total fail I have to go through the whole thing again as I STILL NEED to have my colonoscopy. I can’t believe I didn’t even think about asking for the non flavored drink, I’ve been stressing about being able to get that stuff down!

@DLPanther @Kidsandliz
Oh no, that sounds awful! You also get a big THANK YOU! I WAS planning on asking or inquiring about the pill option but now that I know (thanks to our goat) to request the unflavored drink (like I had last time) I should be all set!

@DLPanther @Lynnerizer Well you may not get those side effects, many don’t but I did. I may have had a more “sensitive” stomach. If you don’t have a lot of GI/stomach issues they may work well for you.

@DLPanther @Kidsandliz @Lynnerizer At my last colonoscopy I also had an endoscopy (reflux issues). Before they put me under, I asked if they could please check my intake before they did my output. (That got a chuckle. )

@DLPanther @Kidsandliz @Lynnerizer @macromeh when I did mine they had me mix miralax into my favorite flavor of gatorade. It was not bad.

@DLPanther @Kidsandliz @Lynnerizer @macromeh Har. My friend who has both done due to having had cancer in more than one place said they do them simultaneously.

@Kidsandliz @Lynnerizer Oh, I did the pills last time and I found the water easier, but my insurance had them on the highest tier! With my history, I am fine sucking it up (ha) and doing the salt water.

@StORMcAT444
So very true!

@werehatrack That has to be a relief.

@Kidsandliz Oooooooh, yeah. The surgeon’s people had said that they were confident that they could get everything together in time, but there’s nothing that reduces the nervousness like actually having the confirmation in hand. And now I do.

The next 90 days are going to be interesting. Many new things to learn and do.

And now I’m down to three days, and the anticipatory nerves are starting up. Still not feeling any uncertainty, but definitely getting the rest. By Friday morning, it may even be getting close to squee territory, except that’s way outside my range.

This is yet another thing that’s new for me.

Possible oh-shit.

At 2PM today, Wednesday, 39 hours before I am supposed to check in at the hospital, and already at the deadline for the documents required by the anesthesiologist, I got a phone call telling me that the cardiologist’s office had not faxed the clearance letter or my records despite having had them requested daily since April 9th. Two hours of desperate messaging and phone calls later, I was assured that they would be faxed tonight without fail. And if they aren’t, I am prepared to be at the cardiologist’s office when they open in the morning to obtain the hardcopies in person and hand-carry them to the hospital. Of course, if the specific cardiologist didn’t come back to the office after emergency surgery this evening, and doesn’t get there in the morning until after 10AM, I’m toast. It has taken two and a half years of work to get to this point, and if it all comes down to the wire without that clearance, I’ll be forced to reschedule to late January or sometime in February - or worse.

If that happens, I will be sorely tempted to say the hell with it. That will not be done lightly, I know that I would regret giving up, but I am just not sure that I can make myself start over from the beginning and go through all of this crap yet again, which is exactly what will almost certainly be required because the existing paperwork will all be as stale as an open box of 1997 Girl Scout cookies in another few months. Maybe the surgeon’s office can magic the rules somehow on the basis of force majeure (subtype “idiot specialist can’t be arsed to sign a form letter that he’s had more than a month to do”), but I will find it difficult to believe that every deck will not be stacked against me if we get to that point.

It could still all go right. But every time I have thought I had everything lined up, something has come along to knock it back down, and we’re past the end of my ability to cope. I am literally down to one last chance on something over which I have zero actual control, and nobody who actually has control actually gives a f=&^%$ f@#+.

@werehatrack I sure hope this gets straightened out in time.

@werehatrack Sorry for all you’re going through. With records being computerized, it should be a simple thing to send your records instead unneeded additional stress.

@werehatrack If you show up this morning and still have the mess talk to patient advocacy/patient experience at the hospital and cardiologist’s practice if it isn’t an independent practice. Also ask for the office manager at the cardiologist’s practice to try to light a file under butts.

@werehatrack Prayers for everything to go well and happen on tomorrow as planned.

The promised fax did not happen. I am parked in the cardiologist’s waiting room so that when he arrives, we can get this handled. Assuming he arrives, is in time, and doesn’t decide that my paperwork can wait until he has cleared his morning calendar.

I am too burned out to be hopeful

@werehatrack hope this ends well. Let us know if and/or when you are able.

@Kidsandliz I obtained the paperwork. I took it to the anesthesia people at the hospital. The anesthesiologist examined it, and was not satisfied. She has additional questions that she needs to ask the cardiologist, and has attempted to call and speak to him, without success. My experience with this cardiologist has been that calls are never returned. Unless they are willing to just accept his signed clearance for my surgery and go forward, I’m toast. And if they were going to accept that signed clearance, I think they already would have. This looks very much like failure.

@werehatrack That beyonds sucks big time.

@werehatrack I am so sorry about what happened. It would be hard to deal with this after having this planned for so long - especially since the medical people didn’t discuss this in a timely manner. I’d say off hand find another cardiologist so you don’t have to go through lack of communication problems again - not to mention a second opinion about whether or not you need something is usually worthwhile. Meanwhile get on their cancelation list. You might get back in sooner. Somebody likely “lucked in” with your surgery cancelled.

@Kidsandliz The cancellation happened after the hard deadline to begin prep, so it’s just an OR session gone and unrecoverable. Worse, what they want me to do could make me ineligible for any elective or non-emergency surgery for possibly as much as two years. There is no up-side for anyone in this. None.

@Kidsandliz @werehatrack
Oh wow that’s tough, I’m so sorry that happened. That sure is some big disappointment you’ve got to deal with. Better safe than sorry.
Acceptance.

Many trees down, chainsaw getting a workout.

The most recent update I found, from before dawn today (Friday), puts the number of customers without power in the Houston area at around 750,000. I’m going to be spending the next hour or so unearthing my generator and setting it up.

@werehatrack current number says more like a million.

More bitching. Continuing to help her pack every day this week (along, now. with two others). She had a second U-haul go there yesterday late afternoon. I was there until 9pm dealing with contractors and people picking up stuff (I am the only one in town with a key). And she came back this morning to deal with the remaining stuff. Why the hell she didn’t just keep the uhaul one more day is beyond me. Then she could have finished yesterday or this morning and then she could have made the drive there today and be done with it. Cleaners are coming Friday morning at 8:30. Anything not gone is on the curb. Plenty is still in the house.

On the UNBLAME SIDE - I found a home for her cat. She told me if she didn’t have time to deal with her cat to bring him he was mine. She was just going to leave it behind if she had to. HUH? So I asked her if she wanted me to find it a home. She said yes. I did within minutes (a friend had her cat die recently), delivered him and if she changes her mind too bad for her. The cat is far better off. He is a sweet, loving, friendly never met a stranger cat who will be adored in his new home.

She is out by the skin of her teeth, two uhaul trips and two car trips later to take crap, along with someone she knows bringing down a trailer worth of junk this weekend. Why she just didn’t stay over the night before last with the uhaul, extend the rental by a day, finish loading yesterday morning I will never know (it was suggested more than once). Cost far more in money to drive there and back and of course far more in time too. Never mind refusing mostly to downsize she now is renting a storage unit and a pod.

Then she hadn’t taken enough money out of the bank to pay the kids helping her but she knew how much it would cost her. She had decided to pay me (I hadn’t asked) and apparently used the money she was going to pay one of them and gave it to me. So I had to “loan” it back. I mean seriously? What the FUCK??? Likely I’ll never see it again, including the gas money I had asked her for, but those kids helping her shouldn’t be innocent victims. I used up nearly a tank of gas going back and forth from her house and my HUD letting in contractors, people she had given stuff too, etc. when she was driving to/from and at her new place. I really needed the gas money. At 8:30 this morning the people who are cleaning up the mess are coming… I am letting them in and then locking up after they have left so I am not involved in the “where is our money” question if there is going to be that question.

And of course I was doing this instead of cleaning up my shit for the HUD recertification that starts today. Hopefully I will not be one of the 25 apartments they randomly pick to inspect (124 apartments in this building). I doubt they are going to start with inspecting our places when they first show up which will buy me a couple of hours this morning (well and they will either start on 1 or start on 5 and I live on 4 which buys time). And of course I am wasting time bitching now. They are here a total of 5 days.

Fortunately they were coming 2 weeks ago but cancelled the day before and I had done the majority of what needed done then. My minivan is the extension of the garage I don’t have and I just left stuff in there - hopefully the homeless who hang out in the parking out don’t break into my car - am down to 1 hubcap - the scratched up one - due to them; a lot of people were busy last night stashing stuff in their cars so we don’t get written up for not being extreme minimalists in 525 sf. This happens at night when the staff have gone home so they are not seen doing this. Sigh.

At least her cat is settling in nicely and its new owner is over the moon with happiness with how loving, gentle and sweet that cat is.

UNBLAME - I was not one of the “chosen” to be inspected.

@Kyeh thanks, appreciate all the help!

@Ignorant Thank YOU!

@narfcake After many years of DIY, I learned that having the right tool for the job makes all the difference.
I have several Milwaukee M12 tools and all have performed beyond my expectations (with the possible exception of the Hackzall which I rate at only mediocre, but maybe I expected too much of it).

@macromeh
That sucks. 4 days is a long time to be sitting waiting for your turn to be called. Bring a good book and wear some comfy clothes or the old one ear piece and run through entire seasons of podcasts.

@macromeh
i did an internship at a courthouse for a year and spent 6 months working for a judge and the other 6 months interning in the parole department. The judge wanted me to sit in court and follow a couple different trials to see how they were different from tv and what really happened. So I spent days upon days just sitting in court watching trials. Thankfully one was a murder trial and actually very interesting. The other was child custody cases and that was entertaining on a whole other level bc you’ll never see two people try and shame and outmaneuver the other like in there. I had to walk out a couple time bc I was laughing so hard.

@Star2236 @Kidsandliz
Unblame: The company’s attorney emailed me to say that the trial has been postponed because of a shortage of judges (or a surplus of trials?).

Reblame: Really that just means that it will be hanging over my head for a longer time.

@macromeh @Star2236 well that is a drag to have that still hanging over your head.

@Kidsandliz @macromeh
Years ago I had a few surgeries in a two year period and got to use it as a get out free pass from jury duty. It seems that didn’t suffice the jury duty gods bc I got called 4 times in those two years. My doctor couldn’t believe it, every time I handed him yet another jury duty note for him to sign off on (so I didn’t have to go), he thought I was fucking with him. I would joke that someone there really hated me and kept personally picking my name. It was also federal court each time. Some people go their whole life without every being called and I’ve already severed once and gotten called 4 times in two years, that’s unheard of.

@Kidsandliz @Star2236 I’ve been selected for jury duty once. I went from the initial winnowing process of the entire pool of all the prospective jurors for that term directly into the first trial on the same day. The case was a father-daughter molestation and it was as horrible as you might imagine. The teenage victim was the same age and attended the same high school as my daughter. I think we were at trial for 8 days of detailed, disturbing testimony. It was grueling. We gave a unanimous guilty verdict on all charges. After that experience, I hope I never get called again.

@Kidsandliz @macromeh
That sounds horrible. I don’t understand why some people choose to go to trial. That father must had zero emotional connection towards his daughter to abuse her and then make her relive it and testify against him. How disgustingly awful.
Mine was about a drunk driver, it was one afternoon and we found him guilty. If I could actually sit through jury duty I’d love to do a federal court case, I just couldn’t be on time to save my life and sit through it bc of pain.

@Kidsandliz @macromeh @Star2236 I know several women who underwent that sort of thing in their family, either at the hands of their father or another male in the household. In one case, there was a trial, and she ended up having to change her name and move out of state before she got away from the recriminations of the rest of the family. It was absolutely horrible.

DIPLOMAT! RAT-A-TAT! FAT CAT! AWESOME!

@pakopako Huh - a good friend of mine just had a bout of flu, too. She said they’re calling it “festival flu” - It’s a combination of many bugs that float around at festivals like Coachella. Feel better soon!

@Kyeh @pakopako Weird. Two of my friends who still sell stuff at conventions have both come down with something like that recently. They both tested negative for the plague, but they both said that this flu was worse than any dose of covid that they’d had to deal with. Flu has never been a joke, of course.

@tinamarie1974 Oh, how beautiful! I had a faun hiding in my yard once too, while its mother grazed at the side of my house.

@Kyeh its still there, I peek out a window every once in a while to check. Trying to avoid taking the dogs out. Charlie is more or less ok because of the sedatives and he is on leash, but my moms dog… Well, he is a spunky dachshund mix who would 100% CHARGE AND BARK!!!

@tinamarie1974 Oh, I’ll bet! Have you seen the mother deer in your yard?

@Kyeh not yet. The baby is on the other side of the fence (fence is 6’ tall). Im sure mom will come back later today to collect the baby. Guessing mom is frolicking in the woods

@tinamarie1974 Probably just chowing down so it can make more milk for the baby! Do you live near woods?

@Kyeh surrounded by them!! And there are loads of critters last week Charlie and I were outside sitting on the deck at dusk. We were lucky enough to watch TEN deer (mature and juvenile) walk past.

@tinamarie1974 That IS lucky! I just hope they don’t eat your flowers!

@Kyeh they wont. The flowers I plant outside my fence are deer resistant. Inside my fence the only requirement is non poisonous to doggos.

Bet you didnt know I had flower chriteria based on planting location. (Clearly I am old)

@tinamarie1974 Good for you!
Wise, not old.

@tinamarie1974 @Kyeh Nice. For a while, we had a doe and twin babies who came to our backyard regularly to graze. They got fairly tame, to the point that we could sit outside on our 2nd level deck and talk to them and they would just look up and go back to munching. Haven’t seen them recently though - we had to become party-poopers once the vegetable garden started growing tasty treats.

@Kyeh @macromeh @tinamarie1974 I have seen them in some neighborhoods around here nibbling on whatever is growing in yards. And I have seen them where mom lives (well and on the family farm but that doesn’t count). Looking out her window you often see deer families crossing behind the high schools stadium. Not so sure where they think they are doing because going in that direction sends them to a busy commercial street. I am reasonably sure they are coming from the large park several blocks “behind” them. Always so nice to see.

Once when I was working in outdoor adventure we came across a baby deer on the hillside all curled up waiting for mama. We steered clear so we wouldn’t scare it.

@ironcheftoni so sorry glad you are ok

@ironcheftoni since when does anyone need an excuse to make more bacon?

@ironcheftoni Oh, no! I’ve been wondering how all the Texans of Meh have been faring in the recent storms. I’m so sorry it hit you hard, but glad you’re okay.

@ironcheftoni BG is stable at RT. We keep ours in a Mason Jar near the stove. I use from it daily and replenish with fresh, filtered BG (to remove the lumps mostly). So why in the world did you discard this?

In the days of yore, before megacapacity fridges (I grew up with ice boxes with actual ice), BG was the olio not only of choice but of necessity. We never heard of things like Canola oil or EVOO. Do you think your grandparents or great grands and before kept their BG in the fridge that they didn’t have?

Do you keep those “modern” oils in the fridge? So what is the rationale for the BG?

@Jackinga I’m kinda overzealous when it comes to food safety. Even more so now when entering cooking contests. Growing up, my mom was lacking in it severely and bouts of food poisoning, aka stomach bugs in our house were common. So my usual mantra is when in doubt, throw it out.

@ironcheftoni If it looks off and smells off, then don’t eat it. That is the first line of defense against food poisoning, that and heating or reheating things.

We grew up in the 40s and 50s and I don’t think anyone in our family ever had a case of food poisoning. We had minimal refrigeration and little money. So food often sat in a covered pot overnight or longer. Of course the pot was hot before being left covered, which kept the contents sterile as long as the lid wasn’t lifted, and reheated before being consumed.

Leftovers were the order of the day, but were usually reheated and eaten within a few days. Things were never left in cans in the icebox. Can coatings were not then what they are now. (You do know that all cans are coated inside with an epoxy film including beverages so that there is no contact with metal surfaces.) We didn’t have plastic containers or cling film either, so things that were to be saved were in glass or in the pot that they were cooked in.

Much of what we ate was pressure canned by us in Mason jars, including meat as well as vegetables and fruits. We didn’t have a freezer either, which should go without saying for it wasn’t until the early 1950s that we had electricity.

We had a dug well and a bucket in the back yard, so the water wasn’t treated either (we’re paying the price for that late in life at the dentist as the water wasn’t fluoridated–who knew that the hydroxyapatite in tooth enamel is many times more resistant to decay when there is sufficient fluoridation?)

We weren’t daredevils nor cavalier about food safety, but had a common sense about what worked and what didn’t. Subsequent generations don’t have that background or judgement, I think.

Bacteria and pathogen growth need a food source and moisture to grow. While I am sure that there are molds that can grow on bacon grease, there is precious little moisture present–at least in our Mason Jar, which is part of the reason that we have never had an issue. Besides the BG is always reheated as part of the base in whatever one is cooking, so 99.9999% of pathogens don’t stand a chance.

We live in an ocean of bacteria and mold spores, most of which our digestive systems can handle. Cooking food just enhances that basic protection, though most of us eat salads, greens, fruits, and some vegetables uncooked without issue.

If you’re scared, lack training, ignorant, or don’t have the knowledge and experience base nor judgement, then continue to do what you are doing. I fully support that course of action and decision making without condemning any actions as a result.

But know that from my 80+ years on this mortal coil, I have a somewhat looser set of guidelines and cutoffs based on decades of experiences, a better understanding of the dangers and danger signs as well as the underlying factors that an make foods-any foods-- unsafe if mishandled.

YMMV

@ironcheftoni @Jackinga

The family farm (I didn’t grow up on it but spent a lot of time on it; it’s about 10 miles as a crow flies from where the 911 plane went down in PA) has well water from a freezing mountain spring where we (before running water was finally put in in the late 1960’s) got water from the pit in the ground next to the stream (so not the “traditional” standing well). We also used the well to keep watermelon (it floats) and other fruit, stuff in water tight containers, etc. (in nets) in there to keep that stuff cold (there was electricity so a fridge in the house but not big enough when 22 people were there). The stream started on the property and was dammed to make a pond which was equally as freezing.

Heat was (and still is) a giant wood stove in the living room so open holes in the ceiling/floor above for heat to escape to and in the room above the living room had an exposed pipe to the roof to both let the smoke out and radiate heat in that room. There were no doors to bedrooms due to the heat situation, rather room divider screens you unfolded to put across the doorway for privacy. These days there are a few electric, oil filled radiators but because of the electricity situation at the farm we have to be careful not to plug in too much. I don’t think there was electricity there until the early 1960’s as well when an uncle paid to run the wires a mile to put it in.

Since the farmhouse and cabin are in a mountain valley there was no cell service there until recently when Version put in a tower. Many times people would hike up the mountain (which is part of the farm) or walk up the 1 miles one lane farm owned dirt road for 1 to 2 bars to use the phone, the farm has a landline. The farm road also goes uphill to the track and a half main road which was only widened to one lane each direction and finally paved in the 1980’s; the farm road is still dirt and as kids (although now someone is paid to do that and keep up the fences) we’d spend a day or so keeping clear the side of the road rain run off ditches, taking big rocks that washed into that out of there as well as fill in gullies in the road from rain run off that overflowed the side of the road ditches.

This was how we (kids as I am sure the adults knew and didn’t tell us on purpose to keep us away from it) discovered the mine entrance on the property (following an overgrown path while hauling rocks away from the road). It’s entrance was totally flooded and as kids we’d endless speculate how to get the water out so we could get the gold. I suspect it was likely a small coal mine (there are coal mines around there) for heating the farmhouse and cabin but as kids we endless speculated about gold and perhaps bodies thrown in there.

There were lots of deer on the property (much is now wooded rather than open cow fields, although even as kids there was a lot of forest as there were only 32 cows) along with muskrats, fox, etc. and as kids we’d be in awe seeing some of those animals. In the pond we’d fish from the dock for dinner with a stick with string and a hook (my uncle stocked it although there were also a ton of blue gills that would nibble you when you’d swim in there) and spend time in the row boat capsizing is and then being under it in the air pocket talking. Great experiences as a kid.

The outhouse was the location of many kid on kid pranks - mostly trapping other kids in there with the outside door piece of wood you’d put in the slot to keep the door shut when not in use. We also be on the roof (it was attached to the log cabin; the log house had nothing attached to it, these building were build in the late 1800’s) and bang around on it. We didn’t dare do anything to the adults. Since we all lived in cities having to use outhouses and having no running water/indoor plumbing was ‘novel’ (I think to the adults it was more in the ‘this is a giant pain’ category and they invented indoor plumbing for a reason) and of course endlessly entertaining to us kids.

As city kids this created a wonderful childhood when we were there of adventures on the 90 acres, little in the way of modern conveniences (still no TV reception or cable TV, your phone needs to be the hot spot for wifi) which we didn’t miss (although I am sure the adults did), and “chores” like counting cows twice a day to make sure none escaped, sneaking on to the goat field of the farm next door to eat wild blueberries or onto the cattle corn fields (also not ours) to swipe corn on the cob (it’s not all that tough if eaten immediately after picking). We’d make dams in the small stream to “capture” tadpoles and small fish, pick blackberries to eat from all the bushes or fruit off of the couple of fruit trees… There is something to be said for exposing kids to a life like that on a regular basis while they are growing up.

My mom and her siblings did a lot of canning - for my mom mostly of fruit, and she made jam from grapes (and sometimes other fruit) so we had a fruit fly “farm” as well at our house. That is how I learned, the hard way, if you are going to vacuum them out of the air take the vacuum outside immediately to liberate them because if you don’t they quickly escape and you get to vacuum them up again.

On the fluoridation issue - the first nearly 5 years of my life there was none in the city water supply. Then we moved were there was some. A huge difference between my teeth and those of the youngest two who had it from conception on. Those of you who drink only bottled water - you need to be aware that it is removed from most bottled water. Drink only that at your teeth’s peril.

@Jackinga i grew up in the country too. Both grandparents had farms. My parents also grew up during the depression. Cattle and hogs were raised and everything but the moo and oink were used. But I err on the side of caution now as I cook for a lot of friends, a couple that are immune compromised. I don’t want to make them sick.

@ironcheftoni @Kidsandliz Wow, what a wonderful story of what seems to be an idyllic childhood that many today could only dream of and would be in envy, if they only knew.

Underlying it all, as you tell your story, I think, is an air of innocence and adventure of a free-range childhood in a world that has all but vanished.

These are qualities that are missing in most children’s upbringing and environment today, I think.

Of all the things I have lost, in addition to my vanishing vitality, the loss of innocence was one of those unrecognized things at the time, which was taken for granted–a precious thing that once gone can never be recaptured.

I, for one, miss that aspect of life more than one can know.

Kids today have a word that has more dimensions than one initially appreciates in a casual hearing, that captures some of this. That word is “adulting.”

Adulting is akin to tasting the “forbidden fruit.” For once tasted, so to speak, with the steep, steep price of loss of innocence, the world is changed forever for those that have crossed that line.

A fantastic story. Thanks for sharing as I know it took a long, long time to create, to compose and to to share.

@ironcheftoni @Jackinga Yes the kind of free range childhood that more had in the past than have today is a lost dimension of today’s society for so many. I also think it is to the detriment of kids as well. You develop in so many more dimensions following curiosity, speculating on what would happen if… you did X and then you, for example, dug into an ant hill and got yourself over run with ants. Or caught the chipmunk that lived under the back porch in a butterfly net when it ran out the hole and then put it in a paper grocery bag (don’t worry we liberated it as we were afraid it would bite us, gave that poor thing a major scare I am sure, but not enough of oa one it moved out). Or what happens when you take a pile of dry ice (got there by bike, dry ice was in a paper grocery bag) and toss it over the bridge into the lake right where all the fish were gathering thinking they were going to be tossed food (they scatter at high speed and the water boils up creating white “smoke”) or put it on the floor to see what happens (it vibrates itself across the floor)… Kid curiosity answered with kid “science”.

I think adult fear (not just what happens when kids spend more time in front of TV’s, computers, smart phones, etc. that are used by kids for hours on end) about crime and safety of kids is behind some of that loss of that kind of childhood. It isn’t that crime against kids (or any kind of crime) is happening at higher rates, it is just that we hear about it more. Psychological bias research has documented that what you hear about more you then think happens more often than it actually does and what you hear about over and over you are far more likely to believe is true even when it isn’t true. I think that affects what adults do with/how they raise their kids even if some of their childhoods were more free range.

I think a lot is lost when kids don’t have the kind of childhood some of us talked about in this thread.

@ironcheftoni @Jackinga @Kidsandliz My parents never tried to have a full-on vegetable garden, but they occasionally would plant a row of something edible. Mostly it was more work than it was really worth from a work-vs-grocery-cost standpoint, and sometimes they grew regrettable things like kale (ugh!) or endive (different ugh) or okra (ogodneveragainAAAARRRGH!). What I learned was that home-grown or u-pick tomatoes and corn are vastly superior to store-bought, it’s only going to work if you have the time to check them daily for watering and pest control issues, you really need to plant lots of rosemary and marigolds in with the veg, and anything that a raccoon or possum or marauding bird can reach (except most peppers) will be destroyed. I hope to have a real veg garden next year when I’m putting a total blackout on travel from early February through the end of July.

@xobzoo Miles of writing - yeeeah. Two above in this thread (not yours): 512 words, 2,849 characters; 1,093 words, 5,588 characters. TL;DR!

@Kyeh @xobzoo So what do we win for long posts??? Which one is mine? Did I come in first??? I am too lazy to do what you did.

@Kidsandliz @xobzoo You DID win. I guess I could (pretend to) promise you a future trophy for it to go with your non-existent goat trophy!

@Kyeh @xobzoo Oooh oooh I used bigger words too. 5588/1093 > 2849/512. I win again!

/showme unblame

/showme goodbye blame

Gooodbbye Blame. Gooodbbye indeed.