"Amazon is where overachievers go to feel bad about themselves."
9Thanks @snapster for leaving a place where employees "...learn how to diplomatically throw people under the bus..." and creating a place where we truly revel in ".... the mediocrity [Bezos] feared."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
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Corporations often think that this is a brand new strategy never tried before. The post office did it in the 80's-tremendous pressure and abuse by mgmt led to the "going postal era", David Eisner and Katzenberg at Disney... at some point the really talented people learn to steer clear.
@naropa Michael Eisner single-handedly ruined Disney. Walt rolled over in his grave.
It's strange how people describe working there. They strive to achieve approval and success from this seemingly abusive system. It's disturbing.
I have a love/hate relationship with Amazon. I love the end user experience. I hate the way they get it done.
Wow. Fascinating article. Thanks.
It's a (mostly) free country and companies should be free to operate the way they desire, with in the law. While I'm sure many employees thrive and enjoy the environment at Amazon, it appears their treatment of employees (no personal life, minimal respect for personal life challenges like health or ailing relatives, etc...) walks right up the line of abuse.
We vote with our feet and wallets.
While we used to default to buying on Amazon, in the future we will search out alternative sources. Perhaps they won't miss us. But we'll sleep better knowing we are less a part of the way they treat humans.
@RedOak
We vote with our feet and our wallets, but nine times out of ten, we demonstrate that our brains are connected to neither.
I try to avoid Amazon like the plague. There's something in me that just hates the big guys; like Walmart, Amazon, and Sears and friends. Sears predates the first 2, and in my opinion has always been pure evil.
There are a lot of very successful businesses who can manage a decent bottom line and happy employees. Why is everyone so fucking greedy these days?
To be fair, after reading the NY Times article you should read this Amazon employee rebuttal: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-nick-ciubotariu
Both pieces are mostly collections of anecdotes and it's impossible to say that either is the one true representation of Amazon.
My first 18 months were more like the Amazon employee rebuttal. My last 18 months were more like the NY Times article.
@shawn What did you do at Amazon? Did you specifically work on Woot related projects, or on Amazon projects as a whole? I'm think that since you came from Woot, you were granted some impunity.
However, Amazon has set the bar very high and they'll never be satisfied (as they should be). I don't think it's such a bad thing that Amazon is asking for the best out of each employee, even if it pushes people beyond their limits. That's how they got to be the best at what they do.
@shawn Thanks for posting an alternative view. I don't doubt that both sides of the story are correct. Amazon could not be the success it is if it weren't for a large number of loyal, hardworking and fulfilled employees. But when a company is so large and driven, there is bound to be a proportionately large body of employees who feel that the demands placed on them are unfair, and if they leave (voluntarily or not) they are likely to be bitter. I wonder how the majority, working between the rising superstars and the burnt-out employees, feel? Unfortunately, with Amazon's restrictions on talking to the press, we aren't likely to hear from that portion of the company.
@Kevin
Again, to be fair, Amazon is the "best" based on weird Wall Street analytics that have nothing to do with making a profit.
At the end of the day, their claim to fame is that they ship someone else's hard work.
@shawn Thanks for that counter. Surely both sides do have truth. This counter story from someone there for 18 months is a sample size of one, and a manager. Not being anonymous and from a manager, it is likely to tow the company line.
Of course the NY Times is not likely to publish a story simply saying Amazon is a nice, average company - gotta have some edge.
"Everyone cried at Amazon" even you @shawn?
@Kevin @gio @saodell @RedOak @caffeine_dude you might be interested in my proposed SXSW talk: https://meh.com/forum/topics/fucking-amazon--how-to-reboot-after-an-acquisition
tldr
...because it's after midnight on the east coast and i gotta get to sleep. waaaaaaahhhhh.
A company whose policy was rate all employees constantly on ever expanding metrics, and to get rid of anyone near the lower end of the rating system was that all around winner, Enron.
Many wall street companies are known to use similar employee ratings today, but in some of them the focus is on improving coaching, training, teamwork, brainstorming, confidence, interaction, etc. In others it's all more "eat our young and anyone rlse who looks gameable or vulnerable."
@f00l Microsoft recently got rid of their employee stack ranking, but I'm not sure they stopped trying to eat their young and vulnerable.
@f00l stack ranking is extremely common in professional services firms, from law to accounting to consulting. Most of the new hires will never make partner, but that's the brass ring that keeps so many working 60, 80, 100 hours per week. Salaried.
I get a random and small sample size of (mostly) devs that worked at Amazon but are applying to work for my small company. We hear about needing work-life balance and wanting to have an impact. Most of them seem burnt out and don't want to be part of such a large machine; they seem to stick it out until they get their their sizable signing bonus at the 2 year mark and then bail.
On the other hand, when trying to poach current Amazon employees, if its before that 2 year mark we've never had any luck, and after a certain point if someone is still there, they seem to enjoy it enough to stay (i.e. I've not had anyone give in and come to work for me).
Like many large companies, I'm sure there are teams at Amazon that are just awful to work for, and some teams that are pretty great.
From the article:
So Mr. Bezos fears Meh?
Did @snapster know this when naming his new website or is this a happy coincidence?
Nawwww. 'Tis all good, Jeff B said it was falsehood and slander.
It's a difficult article to read, and makes me glad Amazon never hired me, but it doesn't surprise me either.
Personally, it makes me thing of how I responded to people asking me about Blackfish & SeaWorld.
In the end, I recommend you do your own research. Ask current and past Amazon employees about how their experiences were. Do your own research over listening to an author/director with an agenda.
Remember, people who are upset are more likely to speak out against something than someone who is happy/satisfied.
@Bogie - I keep thinking all the denials from SeaWorld make them sound more guilty.
Considering the compensation potential, it's not unreasonable for Amazon to expect employees' work-life balance to tip heavily toward work. It's clearly not the right environment for everybody and that's OK.
People with different values can find a different place to work, if their expectations are reasonable. On the other hand, if their expectations are unreasonable, the greatest blessing of capitalism is those people are free to start their own companies based on their values, if they truly believe.
Couple weeks ago I submitted a potential SXSW talk about my experience, from a technical perspective, taking Woot through the Amazon acquisition.
The talk isn't going to focus on the types of anecdotes found in the NY Times article, but it'd be hard to do a talk like this without touching on some of the horror stories: https://meh.com/forum/topics/fucking-amazon--how-to-reboot-after-an-acquisition