Where do you shop for a used car?
3TL;DR? Where do you shop for used cars other than CL or car lots?
I’ve bought plenty of new and used cars (and trucks) over the years. Of course, for new cars I go to the dealer. But shopping for used cars… that system has really changed in the many years I’ve been owning vehicles.
Back in the day, the primary source for my used car purchases was roadsides and street corners. For a more targeted search, I’d hit up the Auto Trader and metro newspaper classified ads.
Over the years, private owner ads in Auto Trader has dramatically declined, and the entire publication is pretty much a 60 page ad for various new and used car lots and “buy-here-pay-here” joints. Same with the metro newspaper. VERY few private party listings… all car lots of some variety.
Over the years my city and county have also cracked down on street corner and roadside sales, towing any vehicles advertised for sale (city and county ordinances).
So for the last few years I’ve relied on CL. In the early days of CL, it was less-inundated with the scammers. Sure, there has always been a fair share of what I call “Craig’s List Flakes”… people who call (or text actually) at 2AM to ask “how much?” when the price is clearly stated in the headline and body of the ad. And of course the constant line of “I’ll be there in an hour” only to be delayed several hours, or most often… never show up at all.
So CL has always had it’s challenges. But it seems the scammers have basically taken over the CL auto ads. TONS of Nigerian scams, lots of dealers advertising as “by owner” or shade tree dealers who run a car lot out of their back yard.
Almost always these dealers massively misrepresent the vehicle… intentionally taking photos of 3 sides of the vehicle, and never once mentioning the rear fender is caved in. Or posting “Clean CarFax!”, but they can never produce one, and offer to stand by while you run it on your own dime.
Best of all are the stories about how this car was purchased new by my Grandmother in 1996 and she didn’t drive much. But somehow the car now has 280,000 miles on it. Boy, Granny got around! Then to see on the vehicle title certificate that there have been 11 titles issued over the years, and the last owner was “Affiliated Auto Auctions” it’s pretty clear the seller picked up the car at a dealer auction and is “flipping” vehicles they know nothing about.
Anyhoo… now that CL has become 80% scammer ads, and I’m shopping for an older used SUV, I’ve become totally disgusted with the whole CL experience.
Where else IS there to shop for a used vehicle? Backpage is not very active in my city, nor is LetItGo. Cars.com and autotraderonline is primarily dealer ads. The KBB listings seem to be affiliated with Cars.com and also primarily dealer ads, or API collected ads from CL and other sales sites.
Any tips, short of sucking it up and paying for dealer markup and 10% sales tax?
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My mechanic points me to them.
@f00l I do my own repairs, so no mechanic, but I’ve spread the word around friends, family and coworkers.
@ruouttaurmind
So make some friends with good local honest mechanics or small garage owners. You’re looking for someone who works at a locally owned place, not a chain. Or better yet, the owner. A warm person, not someone who is so “all business” that they pay no attention to people as individuals. Pick out shop people who are open to liking and caring personally.
There must be a few repairs that are a PITA for you to do yourself. Or just pay them a few times to change your oil.
Chat them up and connect to them. Once they like you and you bring them sandwiches or cookies or iced tea are few times, they’ll look out for vehicles matching what you want. Or other stuff.
You want a place that has repeat customers in a decent neighborhood where people take care of belongings.
Individuals are gonna be the best source. Try driving around decent residential areas looking for signs or cars marked for sale in driveways or shopping centers.
@f00l Oh yeah. I had forgotten about that. There is a Honda shop here that lets people post cars for sale and they keep a book of their customers that want to sell their car. I talked with them when the ghetto van died and they looked at their list, thought about my constraints and referred me to two of the cars. Gave me insider info on true condition of the cars, how flexible they thought the people were on price and how desperate they were to sell (which also tells me if I ever listed a car through them I need to be careful what to share about, say desperation or bottom line price).
I use craigslist, around here it’s mostly Russians flipping cars from the insurance auction. Got my prius that way and the Matrix. The truck I got off craigslist was a towing lot selling a police impound.
@cranky1950 Here on CL it’s mostly Mexican nationals flipping the auction vehicles and “vehicles of dubious origin” which were laundered in Mexico. In fact a large portion of the ads are posted in Spanish.
The lions share of ads are scammers of one sort or another. A popular scam is to get a high mileage vehicle, go to salvage yard and get the odometer (or ECU for CAN-Bus or all digital cars) and transplant low miles into high mileage vehicle.
Another popular scam is to disable the SES indicator (check engine light) on a vehicle with several failure codes, and sell to unsuspecting buyers who are then unable to pass vehicle inspection/smog tests and can’t register it without completing costly repairs.
Another scam is to visit the motor vehicle office and claim “lost title”. They are issued a duplicate, which they take to the local “title loan” store and get a secured loan. Next, they sell the vehicle on CL, using the original (now invalid) “lost” title signed over to the buyer. Of course the unsuspecting buyer can’t transfer into their name until the title loan lien is satisfied.
In the last couple months I’ve looked at 8 used SUVs from CL. 6 of the 8 were varying levels of scam. It’s disheartening.
@ruouttaurmind
How did you detect the dup title thing?
@f00l That has not happened to me personally. An acquaintance, a police detective, who heard I was shopping, contacted me to suggest I stay aware. So now I plan to ask the seller to meet me at the MVD office, or a neighborhood “authorized MVD agent”. I will hand over the cash once the title is verified to be legit. An honest seller shouldn’t hesitate. If the seller is unwilling to take an extra 30 minutes to do this, well… thankfully Detroit made thousands more cars just like that one. I’ll go find another.
I have encountered the disabled SES light a few times, and the odometer swap 5 or 6 times (Carfax to the rescue). I’ve listened to the lies about family history more times than I care to remember, and the crap about how a vehicle title doesn’t really need to be notarized. “They just put that part on there so if you want to have it notarized you can”. Really?
Few things cause me to question humanity as much buying a used car. If the cream rises to the top, the average CL used car seller is surely the dregs at the bottom of a pint.
If you’re set on something particular, enthusiast forums. You’ll know about any of their good and not-so-good driving/car ownership habits also.
@narfcake Good suggestion. I appreciate the tip.
When my 1990 ghetto van blew an engine bearing 18 mo or so ago I knew what I wanted and so joined a community that talked about that particular car. I bought one used, two states away, from someone on that site. It had complete, dealer no less, maintenance records (it was 10 years old as I couldn’t get anything older and still get a car loan). I paid to have it checked out independently. I then rented a car to go get it. There was one intermittent, undisclosed problem I discovered on the way home that cost me close to $500 to fix but even with that I still got a good deal. It had around 158,000 miles on it when I bought it. No repairs needed since then although I do need to resurface the rotors.
My kid, on the other hand went against everything I told her she needed to do and got royally screwed by ignoring me. She bought one from a dirt used car lot, didn’t get it checked out and didn’t check the price online. She paid double what it was worth and just about every sensor was out to the tune of $8000 (none of which has been repaired). It is still running, but only just.
Their scam was accept cash for what the car was worth (well presuming it didn’t have all those problems, I presume it had been in a flood as they got it from a a FL auction when I did an car fax check - actually used auto something or other but the same thing), give them a store front loan for the rest, give her the loan despite no visible means of support, put a tracker in the car, then know they could repossess it as she had no way to make payments, rinse and repeat. Rip off artists, although it was on her for not checking it out and ignoring what I told her she needed to do not to be burned. Someone paid off her balance - would have been smarter to use that $2600 to find something else since she had already lost her original $2500, but then again I was told to fuck off.
I’d also suggest go to the upscale retirement communities and see if they have a board where you can post you want to buy a car. Lots of cars get sold when folks no longer can drive. I would limit this to the upscale ones since the odds of them being taken care of are higher than in a hud one.
@Kidsandliz Fly-by-night auto lots are a scourge! They don’t do any favors for the already tarnished rep of car dealers.
@Kidsandliz Also if ypu have any military bases, get their paper or look at their message boards.
@moondrake I’ve heard this before. Folks who are being transferred overseas tend to liquidate most of their big stuff I’ve heard.
@ruouttaurmind Yes, especially the young, single soldiers who are stationed far from home and are now headed overseas for years. They’ve got no place to store the car they bought when they got their first real paycheck, so they sell them locally, often just to take over payments on a partly paid for vehicle. You can get some good deals, especially since they often splurge on custom sound, custom rims, etc as well.
I found my last used car on EBAY motors, but it was a local seller. They had paid $22,000 for the car a year previous, she drove it for a week before being crippled for life in a medical malpractice incident. It had been garaged for a year before they decided they no longer had a use for it. So I got a 1 year old pristine Chevy Cavalier with 112 miles on it for $10,000. My credit union requires a physical inspection prior to writing auto loans, and the inspector leaned over and whispered in my ear “I cannot believe the deal you are getting.”
I find most of my cars on cars.com and cargurus.com. Cargurus is cool. It compares the advertised price with prices of similar models to show you how good a value the price is.
@jsh139 I’ve looked at cars.com, but the selection there, at least in my city, is 99% dealers. I am unaware of Cargurus. I’ll check it out!
You can try enthusiast sites, (i.e. subaruforester.org if you are looking for a Subaru Forester).
Last used car I purchased was certified pre-owned, which costs a premium vs. regular used car in the lot (and definitely a premium vs private sale) but the extra cost paid for itself when a CV-boot had to be replace and it was still under warranty. CPO also came with 2 years of road-side assistance which I used once when my battery died because my dog switched on the home light of the cargo area.
As has been mentioned already, there are 1,001 websites that’ll help in your used car search. Carfax is even in on the game. Don’t overlook ebay. I’ve had friends have good luck with that. Also, Beepi.com is a relatively new site/system to buy/sell used cars.
@huja Looks like Beepi.com is on the rocks and may not be in business much longer.
TL;DR: We’ve had really good results searching for cars online, but buying thru dealers. They can often make a pretty good deal after getting a car as trade-in, yet still have corporate/business reputations to protect.
@compunaut I’m hoping to avoid the sales tax required when going through a dealer. In the price range I’m shopping, will add up to a fair amount. $700-$900. Even if purchasing from an out of state dealer, my state will collect tax when transferring title and registration.
I owned a '72 Cutlass for a few years! Convertible, sapphire blue metallic with white upholstery. Man I miss that car. I sold it to get a '74 Stingray. Most car guys will admit to wanting a Vette. The rest are liars.
The Vette was fun, but the Cutlass was fun AND practical. Ever try to pack suitcases for a couples weekend into a C3 Vette?
@ruouttaurmind
I knew a guy - long gone now, unfortunately - who could fix anything.
He used to watch for used 1-2 owner very old Beemers from nice zip codes. The owner had to live on a decent street. He wouldn’t go look at the car otherwise unless there was something extra attractive about it.
If it needed stuff, better still. He was always really polite and friendly and would listen forever to the stories the often elderly owners would tell. He always paid a v low, but decent price, considering that he was purchasing something not in good shape.
If he liked the owner, sometimes he would visit them again to thank them and chat, and bring cupcakes. He made a few serious friends that way.
Then he would fix the Beemer up and drive it for a year or two. Then he would sell it, now in great condition, for 2-4 times what he paid for it.
The owners got to like him so much that they would call him when their friends or neighbors wanted to sell something decent. That way he would wind up finding a number of cars for his friends and family members.
@ruouttaurmind I think they check for sales tax based on the amount in the bill of sale on title transfer in Texas. One of the reasons I went to a NM Honda dealer to buy my new car is because their sales tax is 3% lower, which is a lot of money on a $20k purchase. But they charged me Texas sales tax as I am a TX resident and the title would be registered there.
@moondrake
Here the assessor-collector office changed to KBB value. So that it doesn’t matter if you “sell” a car for $1. Buyer gotta pay tax based on KBB.
@f00l Similar thing here. The Assessor sets value on the vehicle (the same chart used to assess registration fees), and sales tax is collected according to that amount, no matter the actual sales price. This is for any dealer purchase, but also applies to private party sales for vehicles newer than ? years, or with value greater than $?.
@f00l So if someone buys a damaged or non-running car for dirt cheap, they’re still taxed/licensed on the KBB value? That’s fucked up.
They don’t even do that here in
TaxCalifornia.@narfcake
I don’t know all the details of the sales tax on “pre-owned” vehicles. Am one of those who has no clue and can’t change the oil
Just know about registering my last two cars, which were functioning well at purchase. I might go see one of my mechanics (got one gas vehicle, one diesel vehicle) this weekend. If so I’ll ask more about how the sales tax works here.
@f00l Found it.
http://www.txdmv.gov/spv-calculator
@narfcake @f00l
#eyeroll Nothing wrong with raising additional revenue, but I’m pretty sure there’s no provision in TX law/Constitution that allows for certain taxes (or $$ from the state lottery) to be earmarked specifically for certain expenses. Revenue all goes into the general fund, and is then parsed out (by Comptroller) as specified by law.
@compunaut
If something is earmarked (lotto to a degree, for ex.) then they just cut other funding to that item by that much or more. Or use accounting tricks. So any new $ effectively winds up as General fund revenue.
“Education” and “Highway” earmarks are just marketing terms to get the voters to approve whatever or not protest whatever.
Washington figured out decades ago how to “wash” bribery $ into legality. Consultancies, board of director slots, fat jobs after you leave your post, odd investment opportunities for your relatives, speaking fees, invitations to special conferences, educational travel, contributed staff and other admin resources, etc.
In Austin they do some of all that. But a lot of it’s a little more traditional Frontier-to-Prohibition style influence, according to journalists I’ve spoken to.
Basically, important serious stag hotel and business-retreat conferences focused heavily on The Three Important B’s of Gub’ment: Booze, Broads, and Bags Of Cash.
It’s all very Whoop-Em Old School.
Nothing to fear from the Texas Rangers at those parties. The Rangers might be the ones escorting the ladies of the evening and the cash.
@compunaut In several states I have lived in no sales tax for a private sale if the car is 10+ years old.
@narfcake I’m surprised they don’t do it that way in CA. My car has a rebuilt title, but I still had to pay tax (or in NH as they call them “fees” since that’s somehow better for the live free or die state) based on KBB-type value in GA, NH, and ME.
@Pantheist Shhhhh!
Also, California as a whole is not the most sales taxing state. That surprises me.
https://taxfoundation.org/state-and-local-sales-tax-rates-2016/
I have bought my last 5 cars (Retired 1994, 1999, 2005, 2004, 2010 Highway Patrol Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptors) from the State Surplus Auction.
I just picked up a 2010 Patrol car with 108k Miles (and 2045 Idling Hours) for $3750 + Tax & License, sight unseen from my states online auction. This unit is in good shape; only needing the usual work of enabling the Interior Lights and installing the rear door handle rods, so they can open from the inside. A Minivan floor console is also a good addition as there are no center armrests.
Just be prepared for people to drive stupidly around you; though this is less of an issue, since manufacturing of this model was discontinued after 2011.
@rcgrams The local PD in my city drive mostly white Chevy Impalas. When I first got my current car (a white Impala) I noticed the same phenomenon. Particularly common when I rode with the sunroof open because at a glance in your rear mirrors it closely resembles one of those low profile LED police light racks.
I’m looking for a relatively specific vehicle right now. A mid-size SUV (GMC Envoy, Honda Pilot, Toyo Highlander, etc) or 4-door pickup (Chevy Colorado, et al). When one is being choosey, one must be prepared for a greater challenge I suppose.
@rcgrams I used to drive retired police cars when I worked for the city, they’d put them in the general employee motor pool. Big engines, lots of get up and go, but no radios.
@moondrake I have purchased a couple in the past from state auction. The drive trains are excellent for my hot rod projects. Often high miles, but usually well maintained, with regular fluid changes and professional tune-ups, repairs, etc. Gut the engine, trans and rear diff, sometimes the brake calipers, etc, and the rest goes off to scrap for a few hundred bucks.
@ruouttaurmind Had to buy our Highlander Hybrid in FL because there were so few available here (TX).
Unless you have some sort of personal transportation crisis, the best deal requires some decent patience.
I wish you could help me with an RV hot rod project: I’d like to drop an GM/Buick L67 supercharged V6 3800 into one of those ‘mini’ motorhomes with underpowered engine…
@compunaut if you are thinking the nissan and toyota class C’s join the yahoo group minitruckcampers. Several people on there have swapped out engine, turned them into 4x4’s…
@compunaut
@compunaut Fortunately I’m not over a barrel and have the luxury of time. My daily driver, the '08 Impala, runs great and gets reasonably good gas mileage. The SUV will be replacing my second vehicle, a '98 S10. I like the little truck, but even though it’s extra-cab, interior space is limited and inconvenient to access (only a 2-door S10, not a 3-door or crew cab). So I can keep shopping until the right deal finds me.
I’m heading over tomorrow to have a look at a GMC XUV. Interesting and unique buggy:
It’s often a crap shoot, but sometimes it pays to check the back lot of the new car dealers. Once in a while you can get a deal on a trade-in they haven’t even cleaned up yet. (I’m pretty sure they still get more money from you than they would from wholesaling it.)
I live in kind of a rural area, and around here CL still works pretty well. The last car I bought off CL was from a guy that turned out to be my sister’s friend’s uncle. But then, almost everyone around here is somebody’s sister’s friend’s uncle.
@walarney as long as it isn’t your brother is your uncle… (grin)
@walarney I used to have great success buying autos on CL. But like most things, as it became more popular and well known, the scammers figure out ways to work the system. Anywhere there’s an easy mark, scammers won’t be far away.
Beepi.com (I think they recently went under)
Shift.com
Frontier Toyota in Santa Clarita.
TL;DR? Bought a truck; see pic below.
Much thanks to all who offered advice on my question. In the end I persevered the Craig’s List flakes and charlatans. After driving all over town, being stood up half a dozen times, looking at maybe 15 trucks and getting more and more frustrated… I finally lucked into an elderly couple in a little retirement community about 70 miles south of home.
I went down there Friday morning to see the truck. After a thorough briefing by the couple about vehicle history, maintenance schedules, all repairs, and a step-by-step explanation of every receipt and work order in their rather thick paperwork binder, we went on the longest test drive I’ve ever been through.
Back at their place 40 minutes later we negotiated a price, did the paperwork, and they handed me the keys.
As fate dictated, the sellers live about 6 miles from Dads new house. Sellers generously assisted by delivering the truck to Dads, where I left it while I drove back to town to visit the DMV to transfer paperwork to my name and get a new license plate. Then back to Dads to beg his assistance and shuttle the truck back home. I was delighted to discover the sellers had stopped to fill the tank on the way to Dads house!
It was a very LONG day, but extremely gratifying.
And because no pics, didn’t happen:
It’s a 2002 Chevrolet Blazer, 4x4, 4.3L Vortec V6, loaded to the teeth with nearly every option available. A beautiful truck in remarkable condition. Mind you, not “great for its age” or whatever, but remarkable condition for any used vehicle. Excellent exterior condition, truly “as new” on the inside. Runs and drives perfectly. New set of $800 BFGoodrich tires, 4 month old battery, new windshield and 4 wheel brake job 2 weeks ago at the dealer (the majority of their service receipts were from the dealer where the truck was purchased), and on and on. Sellers invested almost as much into making the truck ready for sale as the final price we settled on.
I put a ton of time and effort into finding just the right truck, and it paid off in the end. I am a happy boy!
/giphy cartwheels
@ruouttaurmind Sweet people who sold that to you. And by allowing them to talk and talk and talk they are probably pretty happy selling this to you (and likely why they also filled up the tank). I find with my elderly mom, it is far easier for her to part with things when I am willing to listen to her talk about it first. The used car I bought also had almost all its work done at a dealer. So nice when you can buy something with complete maintenance records.
@ruouttaurmind Nice! You should feel right at home coming from a S10 too.
My '95 S10 is the opposite, with nearly every option unavailable! 2.2L, manual transmission, manual windows, manual door locks, non-functional HVAC …
@Kidsandliz You are correct, they were a very pleasant couple, and I think they started to feel comfortable with me, and wanted me to be comfortable with the purchase. I’ve made new car purchases that took less time, but I’ve never bought a car and felt more at ease about it.
@narfcake My current S10, a '98, is only a little better equipped than yours. V6, automatic, working A/C, but none of the other creature comforts. Honestly, in a pickup you don’t really need power windows because the distance to that window crank on the passenger door is barely an arms reach. Though I do miss the convenience of power door locks when my hands are full of groceries and have to fumble with a key.
@ruouttaurmind
Congrats! Looks good.
Honestly, I’ve never had that many issues with craigslist- I’m surprised you have. I ask for the carfax report or the VIN to run it myself, and have always been very successful. I get cars I buy checked out by a mechanic, but every car I’ve physically gone to see was always the same as represented. I did sell one car on autotrader, but that was a somewhat rare model that I sold to someone from out of state.
@Pantheist I experience a lot of sellers not wanting to have people to their homes… which I totally get. So they tell me (usually via text because, Craig’s List apparently would evaporate without SMS?) “Meet me at the convenience store on (whichever location)”. I show up, usually 5 minutes early, seller never shows. No response to calls or text. This has happened more than I wish.
The other common experience is “runs perfect” and when I get there it has a check engine light on the dash and a loud clanking from the engine, or the car won’t run at idle, etc. Or the “doesn’t leak a drop” but when I check the undercarriage it’s drenched in oil from the engine all the way back to the tailpipe.
And those are just the liars/flakes. There are also the scammers who disable dash warning lights, change mileage, or pull the title loan scam.
@ruouttaurmind yuk. Sorry you’ve had that experience. I guess I’ve just been lucky or it’s very location sensitive.
@Pantheist
The bigger the urban area, the worse the scamming attempts.
@Pantheist, @f00l, It’s so common here I actually had to buy a ODBII diagnostic tool a couple of weeks ago so I could plug into the dash and get the true story from the vehicle directly. If a seller refused to let me connect and scan they were probably hiding something, so adios and on to the next.
@ruouttaurmind Insanity. At least they’re cheap and not vehicle specific, so you could use it even after you’ve bought the car.
@Pantheist I’ve been wanting one for a while, so, ya, opportunity knocked. As far as “cheap” it’s all relative. The $10 Harbor Freight scanners won’t tell you much more than a trouble code. A better scanner will do anything from giving you VIN and odometer mileage to live scanning and performance graphing/recording while the engine is running or even vehicle speed and shifting patterns while driving. Still relatively inexpensive, I spent $50 and got some bells and whistles.
@ruouttaurmind
Link to a good one in the deals thread!
There seem to be parking lots everywhere full of 'em. Just pick one you like.
@DaveInSoCal Ah, the days of the totally politically incorrect ‘In Living Color’ …