The Sleep Experiments
13I wrote a while back about the sleep issues I had been experiencing and the community provided a number of good things to try. Since my vacation (where I did get some quality slumber) things have degraded and once again, I find myself awake at stupid o'clock (read: 3:30AM) with no hope of returning to sleep before work.
The zombie has returned. 
Grrrr. Aaarg.
Meditation, white noise, reading and similar distractions have not yielded any results, so I've decided to try some other approaches. Foods, such as cherries, almonds, and milk have been said to help, but since my issue is staying asleep -- falling to sleep is not my problem -- these don't seem to do much for me either.
My latest sleep experiment is with melatonin, which was recommended by a few in the prior thread. Speaking with a Pharmacist prior, up to 5ml would be a safe start. I opted for the liquid form, with a 2ml dosage my first night.
Mind you I was up at 3:45 that day, so I can't say for sure the 8:00 melatonin treatment made me more tired, but I did hit the sack around 9pm.
I slept pretty soundly, but once again woke up early, around 3:30am. I had my usual bout of anxiety around not getting back to sleep, but here's where it gets a little interesting. About an hour later, I fell back to sleep, albeit on and off. I was semi-conscious when my alarm went off at 6:20, but I felt like I could have slept more, given the chance, and that's definitely new. I feel slightly more rested today, but I can't say for certain that because I took the melatonin or because I had exhaustion from lack of sleep the night before.
I plan on repeating the 2ml dosage this evening and seeing if I have similar pattern from the previous night. If I wake again, I will likely up the amount to 3ml and go from there.
TL;DR: I wake up at night. Melatonin might be helping. Stay tuned.
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I've tried Melatonin in the past but it gives me somewhat of a hangover feeling the next day - probably more my fault than the medicine though. Really any type of sleep aid does. I'm like you in that I have some pretty substantial, at least to me, sleeping issues.
I've tried taking a few medications but I've found that I'm super stubborn and actually tend to mentally fight the medications thus rendering me a complete zombie the next day.
@MEHcus I don't feel any more sluggish than usual for using it (and actually a little better than yesterday, as noted) so I guess that's a good thing. I don't have any prior experience with sleep meds, so this is entirely new to me. In fact, I felt a little strange/uncomfortable asking about and purchasing it. Like I was doing something illicit. I know that sounds weird, but yeah. That.
@MEHcus My husband has been taking Ambien for at least fifteen years (night shift) and he does the same thing. If he'd take it, eat, and immediately put on his sleep mask and ear plugs, he'd fall right to sleep for the day. However, he gets that mini burst of energy right when it hits and decides he needs to get up on a ladder, or pay bills, or work on his car, or binge watch three shows. He fell asleep a little while ago in the middle of Gotham, sitting up with a full beer in his hand. No ear plugs or mask, so the dogs will wake him up when the mail runs. That or the kids will when they get home from school. I take my sleep too seriously for that. I may be up half the night due to insomnia, but when I do get sleepy, I try not to fight it. Anyway, I hope you and @ACraigL get some quality sleep soon.
@MEHcus That hangover feeling goes away with regular use for most people. I find it goes hand in hand with the sleep loss I'm making up.
@MEHcus
Had v slight am hangovers on early use, years ago. Fixed by coffee and 1 hour of being awake. Now no hangovers.
Went thru bad insomnia prob berhapa 10 years ago, used a lot of it. Then prob receded.
You cant OD on melatonin. I use the tablets from walmart. Perhaps once a month. Usually 2 will fix my prob, if i had a late latte or something, will ingest as much melatonin as it takes, 2 more every 20-30 min. No serious probs in the am.
@ACraigL have you tried having kids. Then you will be on the proper schedule no adjustments...
I've had luck with the occasional benadryl, but I wouldn't make a habit of that one. I take it about 9 hours from when I want to wake up, and 1 hour from when I want to be asleep. Too much less time than that and I'm super groggy in the AM.
@DaveInSoCal
Benadryl works but will cause hangiver. Partly because most ppl tak time-release pellets and its still hitting your bod 12 hours later.
Try opening tablet, using a pill crusher on the little pellets, then taking a bit w liquid. Hits you a bit harder immediately, less after effect in am because you ground down the time release coating.
I use Midnite - it can be taken in the middle of the night to help you fall back asleep.
@hallmike Also a melatonin product (with some extra stuff). I do like the idea of having it handy in case you do need to take it at night. Thanks for the link.
I take Alteril. It has melatonin, tryptophan, and a proprietary blend of other natural items that really seem to work. There's no hangover feeling even if I take more when I wake up and don't seem to be able to go back to sleep. Walmart has the best price so far that I've found.
@mehbee I saw that brand and thought it sounded to close to Adderall (and maybe that's the point). One of my experiments will be to try different brands and solutions of melatonin. I'll keep this one in mind.
This is gonna sound odd, but have you tried a clock that ticks in the room?
@thismyusername On particularly restless nights, I try to nap in my basement, which has a ticking clock. I tend to find it distracting; white noise is better for me and I think why I sometimes sleep better in hotel rooms. Unfortunately it does not translate at home. :(
I am a light sleeper and also have that problem of I can fall asleep but wake up and then can't get back to sleep too. A sleep mask helped as found I sleep better in a completely dark room. I tried black out curtains but they can gap (and that gap is helped along by cats). Ear plugs are sometimes needed (the foam kind seem less irritating) due to barking dogs, construction... Kicking the cats out helps as then they don't walk on me in the middle of the night, but right now I can't do that since I am living in the shed and it is just one small room. Oh - the other thing I found that seemed to help is being in the sun enough during the day. Not sure why but perhaps it has something to do with our internal clock... as light helps set that. Good luck.
@Kidsandliz Noise tends not be a problem, but I do wear a sleep mask if I hope to sleep past sun-up. On the sunlight point -- I'm definitely NOT getting enough sun, and I think that's a key point (and maybe why I slept so well on vacation). I'm considering a desktop light box -- do you have any experience with those?
@ACraigL I have thought about them but have not bought one. If you buy one let me know how it goes with that.
@ACraigL I was going to suggest trying the other end of things and see if light therapy works. I'm a big fan of it as an adjunct therapy for my sleep apnea Cpap treatment.
I get 14k lux for about 30 minutes in the morning whenever I can. After a few days it starts making a difference. My problem is tiredness, but it makes me go to bed earlier too.
It very well might help you set the rhythms right for you.
@edwinwillmore I've been using light therapy every morning for almost a week now. I can't say it alone has helped (yet) but I'm sticking with it for the time being.
I wish I could share my ability to sleep with everyone. When I can fit sleep into my schedule, I sleep. Always out within 15 minutes, even if I finish my coffee on the way to bed.
Granted, I am in grad school and work full time and have a 4 year old and I'm on the board/coach for 2 roller derby leagues and I'm on the board for habitat for humanity and I'm a district Elks officer. .... so sleep time is a little rare.
@MsELizardBeth
I am compelled to mention that you are a fucking hero.
Awesome.
@MsELizardBeth I second @f00l's sentiment. Awesome. My wife can fall asleep on a dime, and for as long as she wants. I go through intervals of jealousy and anger over that. (the anger is one part jealousy and one part laziness -- which she openly admits to -- which makes me angry)
I have a number of health issues including chronic fatigue plus insomnia which is really horrible for my sleep patterns. I am on a lot of meds and have done a bit of reading.
Wikipedia as well as Dr. Weil have some good info on what sleep issues melatonin may help with. Both articles agree that the lower doses are better in the long term but... you mention some things consistently.
3am - 3:30am. It has been some time ago but I think I have read that this time (and it may also be the same with the 3pm) is a certain time humans have difficulty with sleep or the 3pm may be a time where they fall asleep.
The Dr. Weil article talks about getting to the real reason for ones sleep issues and you mention anxiety - Weil suggests to "try the Relaxing Breath". It must be on his sight. Maybe you can consult with your doctor about your anxiety.
I have been in a sleep study also. I am a night owl but was ordered to be at the center at 8pm. I believed I would never fall asleep so early especially when they glued all those sensors to my hair, forehead etc.
They really know what they are doing with the design of the rooms. Perfect temp, very dark, quiet and I was out like nothing flat.
I was shocked to learn I had a light sleep apnea for which my body compensated by turning on its side and corrected itself. For the study I had to return to sleep on my back and after a few tries I was asked to try one of those masks. The researcher said he would note that I did well on my side but the idiot specialist never read the note and I was forced to use a mask and I lost a lot of sleep over it. I eventually demanded he look over the notes and gave up the mask as he saw that I was OK sleeping on my side.
I do have anxiety issues and will wake up but it seems to help if I get out of bed, have a handful of something to eat get back to bed and get on my side and sleep. 75% of the time I will go to sleep. But I am on a lot of meds which I would not recommend to anyone unless really necessary. Obviously restorative sleep is so important!
@fjp999
My sympathies re "physician is god" encounter. Fortunately most physicians dont do that.
I heard of one internist who was beyond condescending to a newly married husband-wife who were both patients, wife was a new patient. Internist was kinda a "let me explain to you little people" guy. Husband was a tenured algebraist/topologist. Wife was a tenure-track microbiologist, both of them at a top 15 research u.
Husband would shrug and be polite, not do the power-struggle thing. I guess the wife has taken so much shit moving forward in her profession, you had to go way past incidental casual rudeness to reach her limit, but she had one. One day internist stepped on her a little too hard, and she just pointed her brain and him and fired.
Wish i'd been there.
@fjp999 Thanks for the leads on more info. I'm not saying I don't have stress -- you have to be pretty special to not -- but it's generally low. My anxiety comes from not sleeping. My concern around not getting enough sleep and therefore unable to perform at work makes me crazy. It's a dumb cycle, hence the experiments.
@f00l Great story. I have had a few "physician as gods" but I quickly learned to fire them! Some of these idiots don't get the msg very well and have their office call me to make my next appt. even after I file complaints with the proper authorities!
It seems the higher the education the bigger heads these gods get... and being from a Euro-gypsy family I believe I can say this - it also seems to be the new scum that is taking over small town USA = Euro-gypsy trash, doctor ripoffs. Those were the two I fired in the past year.
@fjp999
Most physicians dont do "god", and will work as equals with their patients. I normally can tell right off that some doctor isnt for me.
On the happily rare times i need some, am less picky w surgeons and anesthesiologists, once i decide i wanna go that way. If i have chosen to go w the procedure, less concerned w personality than w ethics and competence, if i'm unconscious.
@f00l Absolutely.
I had this thyroid doc who had this heavy gypsy accent. I could understand her but didn't let on. Not a morning person #1 and endo is not my subject #2... so had a ton of questions and my iPod Touch to record her. NO RECORDING - NO! NO! NO! Um, ok... I couldn't understand her answers so asked her to repeat them in another way but she just had a pat way. I knew I was not in for a smooth ride with this one.
Go to a big uni for a biopsy (not 100% sure it was necessary) then call her office for results (had the copy in front of my). They actually lie to me saying I may have cancer and need follow up tests and visit with her! Results were actually 99.9% negative. Glad I have such a good team in my GP around me who can order all I need - and he agreed that I didn't need to see this Endo. Psych was the same. Had to fire her after she refused to teleconference with my GP.
Best thing I learned from my nurse was to ask the surgeon (when they say "It won't hurt one bit") How often have you had this procedure done to yourself?
I forget, have you done a sleep study, or been checked pulseox and for apnea?
Did you try any of the binaural sleep apps? I like the ones from tesla audio, on the iphone app store. Used to be also on android, but seems to have been pulled. You might be able to find the android version in the wild, or get another similar app. As far as i and several friends can tell, these work, esp when combined w melatonin.
Get earbuds that will stay in for at least an hour, or better yet, a memory foam sleep mask w flat speakers over the ears (ebay, amazon). Put phone or ipod under pillow on charger. Or get bluetooth headband w flat speakers over ears, put phone anywhere.
Because i find all this interesting, i just purchase a supposedly more advanced contraption called a "sleep shepard". Just arrived, so i'll let you know. Does look comfy. No speaker wires!
Sleepshepard.com
Btw, woke up at 4am today because i had deliberately overslept for the last few days due to sinus infection which is improving. Hopefully am not invalidating my own words by being awake ;)
@f00l I have not done a sleep study. In part, my sleeping issues are due to a neck injury I suffered a few years ago, which resulted in a cervical dissection/fusion. That has limited my neck rotation slightly, but enough to impact my sleep. I've always been a stomach sleeper, and since the surgery I find that that position puts too much stress on my neck, and I wake up. I've never been able to sleep on my back, and still can't. That leave side-sleeping which is OK, but I routinely wake up because I flipped to my stomach, or my arms are numb as hell from sleeping on them.
Are binaural sleep apps different from white noise? I haven't tried them specifically, but certainly willing to. Get back to us on the sleepshepard results!
@ACraigL
Binaural beat apps are NOT white noise or pink noise. Am not up on details of sound tech in this case, but basically, they use earbuds or flat ear-speakers and special stereo sounds that push your brainwaves to the right wavelength for sleep. The rely on different sounds to each ear. So external speakers wont work, you have to have 1 tiny speaker up against or in each ear.
In these apps, the base sound is often accompanied by your choice of sound effect, such as rain or thunder or waves, as a sound overlay.
I have never taken liquid melatonin. I just go with what's cheap here, which is walmart tabs. Afaik you cant take enuf to hurt yourself in the am - this is a naturally occuring brain chem that has high levels esp in young kids and teenagers.
If i werent sleeping and had taken melatonin already, i would just take more, 2 at a time, till dawn if need be. Have done this on some bad nights, a few times a year. You might feel no hangover at all, or you might feel a v light one. But if you dont sleep you're also gonna have a bad time later in the day, right?
Can you get a referral for a sleep study?
@f00l The liquid was very cheap. $8 for a 30-day dose (assuming 2ml/dose). Thanks for the explanation on binaural. I'm going to hold off there -- sleeping with headphones (side sleeper) has always been tough for me.
I'm not ruling out a sleep study, but I plan on seeing what I do on my own first, before going that route. But that will be something I'll consider down the line.
@ACraigL
Will try to get you some links to in-ear or on-ear spearker comfy bluetooth headband or eyemask later today.
@ACraigL
I'm a side sleeper always and the headphones i have used have always been quite comfortable. I used to use wired ones, when needed, 7 years ago. Bluetooth is better, no avoiding getting tangled when you roll over, and no busted wires. The flat speakers are almost unnoticeable, v flat and thin.
You are looking for something like these:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Bluetooth+sleep+mask
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_15?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bluetooth+sleep+headphones&sprefix=Bluetooth+sleep%2Caps%2C406&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abluetooth+sleep+headphones
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=bluetooth+sleep+headband&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abluetooth+sleep+headband
Some of these headband/earphones/masks dont have all night batt life, but if they work you may only need them to get you to sleep. If you wanna run them all night (i like to do all nite when i need them), keep several headbands charged and swap out as needed.
The Tesla Audio app called i think Ambiscience Pure Sleep (free and paid) lets you set a timer or just let it run. That particular app has the wonkiest interface, like an 8-track tape drive from 1975, but it's simple enough.
All or most of the apps make you download some large sound files before use, so prep in advance. If you wanna search for this sort of app in general, try these searches:
Binaural beats
Ambiscience
Sleep brainwave
Binaural sleep
Theta waves
Delta waves
Etc.
The apps will explain more of the thinking on why this might be effective. And no side effects next am! And the speakers aren't so isolating you can't hear stuff in an emergency. I dont want isolating, but i lived 6 years across the street from some sort of foundry. I guess i brain-filter sound ok, tho i can't ignore talking easily. You can get more isolating if you want that.
Usually either the app alone or melatonin alone will work for my bad nights. The combo always works for me.
@f00l Awsome stuff. Will have a look. Thanks for all the info -- really, really appreciated.
Wow. I'm so thankful for all the thoughtful and positive responses you guys have provided. Good to know I'm not alone in this. I'll take a stab at individual reply once I'm through this update.
Day 2: The sameining
As the the title suggests, the same 2ml dosage of melatonin produced very similar results last night. Medicated around 8:30PM and was asleep in less than an hour. Slept well, had odd dreams, but that appears to be a normal side-effect. Woke almost exactly at 3:00AM. Took slightly over an hour to resume sleep, but that was a very light sleep with regular intervals of waking. I was fully up at 6:00AM.
I guess it's worth noting that this did give me almost six hours of deep sleep, which is pretty good by any standard. However, that's primarily due to the 9PM bedtime. In my experience, going to bed later does not shift the waking window (3-4AM) that I seem to have. That said, I think (placebo or otherwise) that the melatonin is helping a bit.
Next up:
While two datapoints are hardly a trend, I'm going to up the dosage to 3ml to see if that has any impact on my sleep pattern.
All my research, as well as many comments here, suggested daytime light is critical, of which I get very little due to cushy office job. I may invest in one of those light box thingees. Anyone have a suggestion on brand or type (are there types?)
@ACraigL
Full spectrum is key i think? Check this. Limit blue light in evenings. (ie monitors, and everything that's fun and electronic except lazer cat-toys.)
@f00l this?
@ACraigL i mean check that it's spozed to be a full spectrum light in the daytime, mornings esp. I don't own one, have not used one. Amazon sells them, lots of comments there.
@f00l Gotcha. Thanks.
@ACraigL, @f00l yes, I was going to add that most recommend the light therapy along with the melatonin.
and as has been add below this vitamin Bs are always good to go but if you are not getting enough sunshine (and most studies say NO one does) then it is good to add Vitamin D. NOW seems to be a trusted brand by many on Amazon. Since I am considered to be "chronically ill" my vit D3 dose is 2,000 units x2 daily which is a bit higher than usual but not rare (it is scripted). The script is "RA VITAMIN B-12 1,000 MCG TABS" & "BALANCED B-100 COMPLEX TAB SA" = I had requested NOW brand from the pharmacy as they are all 100+ where many brands are not. Plus I am also on Cerefolin NAC for cognitive impairment (Nestle pharma = very interesting med mostly Bs).
My fiancé and I have recently switched our diet to a (mostly) plant based diet, following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's "Eat to live" . On this diet my fiancé, who's always been plagued with sleep issues, has found she sleeps exceedingly better with less interruptions in her sleep. Then as we progressed with the diet we found a recommendation to include b-vitamins in our diet. We started taking 500-mg doses of niacin in the evening. We both noticed we were sleeping even better than before and a little research showed niacin in relatively large quantities(500-1000mg) can help with sleep.
@matto121
I started a similar eating plan a few years back, a combo of that and China Study principles. Then i drift....then i bring myself back....
Recently mondo oreos and junk food. I must get some motivation. Thx for mentioning this.
Day 3: WTF?
As stated, I upped the dosage last night to 3ml. Yesterday was a bit of an unusual day for me as I got plenty of outside time and more than a few miles of walking in. I expected a better night. I was wrong.
Went to bed around 10:00PM, after taking the 3ml of melatonin about 30 min prior. After a short bout of restless sleep, I awoke around 2:30AM. Since the previous two nights I had fallen back to sleep within an hour, I toughed it out, but was starting to lose hope around 4:15. I got up, and took another 1ml of melatonin and tried going back to sleep.
I believe I drifted off around 5am, but woke to the sounds of my family starting the day about 45 minutes later. I probably could have gotten more rest, but I had to get up for work shortly thereafter.
As it stands, I think I got about 5 hours of sleep, very little of it quality. I have a long day ahead of me -- I don't expect to be home before 10PM, so seriously hoping I can make it.
Next up:
I'm going to up the dosage again to 4ml tonight. I also have picked out a light therapy box on Amazon and may pull the trigger on it this weekend if things don't improve.
Considering an extra role on the Walking Dead...
@ACraigL
Pks keep in mind a few things: early morning wakefullness after going to sleep normally (ie go to sleep normally, wake up 1-6 hours later while still needing sleep, and not being able to go bsck to sleep) can be a specific symptom of neurotransmitter imbalance.
This is common in older persons, lightly depressed (and more depressed) persons, lightly anxious or stressed (or more anxious/stressed) persons, persons with recent life, habit, environment, and schedule changes as well as persons facing such changes or pondering such changes, person with a lot on their minds, persons facing or contemplating new worries and challenges, etc. Ie, you think to much, worry to much, you can f up your brain. Highly individual.
In these cases, the transmitter changes that contribute to early morning wakening can become self-perpetuating, in the sense that sleep loss and sleep related worries add to the stress and neurotransmitter weirdness.
Whether or not a person is depressed, modern anti-depressants (which are not really anti-depressants, they're drugs that address neurotransmitter issues) can fix this. Fixit in the sense that after a few weeks often someone can taper the rx and not have a recurrence.
A number of these are easy on your bod and life, cheap, and have minimal or no side-effects. You GP or internist can handle these if you want to try them. Generic versions of prozac, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, and more other ones than i can count mught make this just go away. Sometimes you have to try one, dump it due to side effects, and go to another one with a diff pathway. My friends/family tried these always found something to do the trick.
If you are averse to the "medical" or "psych" route, there are herbs and such with some similar effectiveness, over the counter at Walmart or a health food store. Ironically, the rx's are likely cheaper as many of them make the $4/month list.
An incredibly healthy diet, regular non-stressful aerobic activity, meditation, gardening, long walks, reading for pleasure, art, sports, etc, also can help fix this, tho not as fast as rx stuff. Esp the exercise. Pick an activity that gets you into a peaceful, unstressed mindspace for a while.
My Dad was prone to this middle-of-night waking, off and on, lifelong, and hated it. He was a tennis fanatic, and said one reason he loved playing is that for 2-3 hours, all he had to do was hit a yellow ball with a racket. During those hours, he pretended the rest of the world didnt exist.
@ACraigL I didn't mention this earlier, and am incredibly hesitant to do so now, as I can't seem to find a reliable source – but I vaguely remember having read somewhere that depending on how much your body 'needs,' increasing dosage of melatonin can actually have the opposite effect. Now, I personally have never had an increased dosage seemingly cause this, and again - in my cursory glances around the internet yesterday, I was unable to find a reliable source on that. But, bigger may not be better.
@ACraigL I am watching this thread closely for the miracle cure. I understand your pain.
@ACraigL
Had to look these up, as not sure i remembered right, but, two herbs with noted effectiveness in the "neurotransmitter zone" are
St John's Wort
SAM-e
There may be others.
Google and wikipedia indicate they're likely for real. Walmart, drugstore, health food store. Also amazon and ebay. Pethaps purchasing stuff like this off ebay is insane, but i've done it in the past and gotten genuine whatever.
@f00l @ACraigL Passionflower is often suggested for 'relaxation' and is largely believed [citation needed] to behave similar to an MAOI. My own anecdotal evidence that shouldn't be taken as a serious data point agrees.
@ACraigL I use L-Theanine, a natural component of tea. It's kind of the anti-caffeine. It takes the edge of so I can sleep, but doesn't give a hangover feeling the next day. I usually take 200mg. When I took 300mg it lowered my blood pressure. Not sure if that's good or bad, but thought it worth mentioning.
@ACraigL My mother uses a spray melatonin when when she wakes up in the middle of the night, and it allows her to go back to sleep and wake up at a reasonable time. You might try 2 ml at bedtime, and a half- or full dose when you wake up?
@f00l @brhfl @heartny @mossygreen Thanks for the suggestions! I'll continue to keep these in mind as I rotate in different solutions to see what works best for me.
@f00l I stopped buying any and all supplements from Wal-Mart. You might want to read this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/03/gnc-target-wal-mart-walgreens-accused-of-selling-fake-herbals/
Ok, perhaps this next is not the solution you are looking for, but....
You mention:
"The zombie has returned. Grrrr. Aaarg."
Interesting way of putting it. Not sure how your wife, family, friends would feel about this, but:
Have you considered encountering a zombie, or pack of zombies, as a route to a potentially permanent solution?
I think it might mean a change of diet, and sleep/wake habits, loss of job and family, complete loss of vocabulary (unless you become one of those "hollywood a-list zombies who stay media-ready), but hey!
Bright side already! No worries re being awake at nite! No endless negotiations at work/home! No boss! No bathing and hygiene! No wardrobe worries! New friends! Zombie aerobics! Zombie meet-ups! No "missed Game Of Thones" conversations! No thoughts at all!
And i bet there will soon be a zombie.meh.com just for folks like your new self!
OK, this is not to everyone's taste. Yet.
This is my recent experience; I don't seem to have too much trouble sleeping, but according to my fitness tracker I only average about 3 1/2 hrs of deep sleep per night.
I recently bought these blue blocker computer glasses, and since then my deep sleep has increased to average 5 1/2 hrs per night. I was surprised to realize this, it was just an idle experiment, but something you might consider trying?
@KDemo
Good idea! I see these for gaming, but hadn't thought of using them in the evening while messing w e-toys. These are now in my cart.
@f00l I use an app called Twilight on my phone. You can customize the time when it kicks in and mutes the blue tones on your phone. It does seem to help!
I had cleaned a drawer and put the contents "somewhere", so took some time to find the melatonin.
The following is just my practice - but i dont think you can hurt yourself w melatonin. I wouldnt just ramp up sharply all at once, in case you have a side-effect.
I have the NatureMade brand (think it's the house Walmart label), 3mg tabs. There are other sizes, i grab something high-dose off the shelf.
I can usually sleep despite really stupid life habits.
If i can't, or if i wake up after 1-4 hours and cant sleep again, i either reach for my phone soundwave sleep app w the speaker/sleep mask or the melatonin, depending on which is in reach.
If melatonin i start w 2. I chew or grind them hoping for faster absorption. Then light back out (and sometimes extra pillow over head if no sleep mask). If still frustratedly and restlessly awake after say 30 min, 2 more, chewed or ground, repeat.
If still not asleep after say 60-90 min, if using app, add more melatonin, if ysing melatonin, app app and mask w speakers, and more melatonin.
When i started trying melatonin, i sometimes had a slight hangover, very light. Now i notice nothing.
The most melatonin i ever tried was "a lot". Perhaps 10-12 tabs or even more? A few times when i was stupid w evening coffee, or had unusual worries. I think it always worked in the end. No major probs next day that a few lattes or energy drinks couldnt deal with. No promises, so if you wanna try high doses, perhaps test on a weekend?
If none of these work, give benadryl a try, it has a much stronger effect. Be cautious w dosage and go w liquid as s test. The capsules are cheaper for regular use, but you don't want anything like a whole capsule. Also the capsules are time release, and so must be thoroughly ground or crushed in a pill crusher else you will barely function in the am. If you really grind the pellets from an opened capsule, take w liquid, small dose, you might not have any hangover next am. Or allergies! I bet benadryl would work. Personally, i would use it if melatonin and my app didnt work.
I havent yet tried my new sleep shepard e-toy. Perhaps this weekend.
Day 4: Better, but don't know why
I had a long day yesterday, and ran on fumes for most of it. Came home around 10:30PM. I took another 3ml of melatonin and was asleep by 11:00. I definitely woke up during the night, but managed to keep my eyes closed and push through. Best guess, I fell back to sleep about 45 minutes later, until about 5:30AM, give or take.
So relatively speaking, I feel more rested than yesterday, but it's pretty relative given the terrible experience the night prior. But I'll take it.
Next up:
I'm sticking to 3ml this weekend and see if I can get some sort of regular pattern going. I also plan on getting the lightbox and start using it on Monday.
@ACraigL Sounds like the best plan so far.
This is what the research says from a paper on wiki:
"A very small dose taken several hours before bedtime in accordance with the phase response curve for melatonin in humans (PRC) does not cause sleepiness but, acting as a chronobiotic (affecting aspects of biological time structure),[24] advances the phase slightly and is additive to the effect of using light therapy upon awakening. Light therapy may advance the phase about one to two-and-a-half hours and an oral dose of 0.3 or 3 mg of melatonin, timed correctly some hours before bedtime, can add about 30 minutes to the ~2 hour advance achieved with light therapy. There is no difference in the average magnitude of phase shift induced by the two doses (0.3 or 3 mg).[25]"
One must remember that melatonin is a hormone and for whatever reason the FDA chose to release it OTC. I believe it is the only hormone OTC in the USA but I could be wrong. btw, most countries, according to wiki, do not have melatonin OTC.
When looking for side effects of a medication (and you are wise to label this as a medication) a doctor will give you a schedule to follow to slowly dose up.
It has been some time that I had such a schedule from a doc but let us use low-dose naltrexone (ldn) as an example (most users agree on the scheduling) and it is most often taken in liquid form... with the highest dose at 4.5ml but many stop at 3ml.
For those who consider themselves sensitive to medications they start at 0.5ml for 2 weeks and up dose 0.5ml every 2 weeks until they reach the 4.5ml or stay at the 3ml for a few months and see how it goes.
As ldn is a much more regulated medication than a supplement such as melatonin those on ldn are sure of what we are getting. This is another issue with an unregulated industry thus important to follow a brand that is very highly regarded in the industry... but again only your body will know for sure and also since melatonin only assist certain sleep issues (along with light therapy) this may not be the answer for everyone. Just to add to more sleep stress.
@fjp999 I should have posted the article here instead of above; the NY State Atty. General's office found Wal-Mart, GNC and others were selling faux herbal supplements, including melatonin. I'm sure it's all been corrected by all vendors by now. Yep. It does explain a lot of the YMMV aspect. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/03/gnc-target-wal-mart-walgreens-accused-of-selling-fake-herbals/
@OldCatLady Mine is from GNC. But it definitely makes me sleepy, whatever it may be.
@ACraigL..did you check the side effects of any medications you are taking.. I just started taking atorvastatin (lipitor). I thought it might be the reason I am sleeping so soundly lately, but on searching I found that it may cause insomnia. Just a thought...
@mikibell A good thought, but I'm not on any medications whatsoever. I'm actually a little hesitant to try any meds because I take them so infrequently. Even moving to the melatonin was a worried leap for me.
This sounds trivial, but made a huge difference for me. I got a serious (3") memory foam mattress topper. Apparently after one deep sleep cycle, my hip, shoulder etc. were painful enough to wake me, and the rest was history. The topper keeps weight more evenly distributed. Thin people, hefty ones, whatever - you don't shift during deep sleep. I did have to buy new super-deep sheets, and the topper weighs a ton, but I'm never going back.
@OldCatLady I hadn't considered a topper, but the mattress itself is about 14 years old. I should consider retiring it. I don't see it as a cause for wakefulness, but I bet I could be more comfortable all the same.
@ACraigL 14 years is a long time, though if your current mattress is structurally good, then the topper route will be fine. If not, then budget for a new mattress instead.
I went from an innerspring to foam many years back; the lack of pressure points were a factor. Nothing expensive either (Ikea).
@narfcake I remember paying a lot for it (over $1,000) and thinking I better get my money's worth on this. I hadn't considered how long it had been until this thread. Seems like a good summer project. :)
Day 5: Meh.
Stuck to the stated regimen, 3ml at 9:30ish, went to bed at 10pm. ABRUPTLY woke up at 11:30 to what I thought was a loud popping sound somewhere in the house. My wife is pretty sensitive to noises, and she gave no signs of hearing it. Vivid dreams are a possible side-effect of Melatonin, so I guess that was it?
I awoke several other times but was able to resume sleep reasonably quickly afterwords, and eventually woke up for good around 6AM. Not my worst night, by a mile.
In related news, Amazon lost my package that has the lightbox. I had hoped to get it today to begin treatment, but now they're telling me I may have to wait until Monday to receive it.
Next up:
Wait for the damn lightbox.
@ACraigL
If lightbox plus melatonin plus later evening gamer glasses that cut the blue as mentioned above dont work, while you try other options, please consider having a conversation w a GP or internist. Early-morning wakefulness is a known pattern, sometimes self-perpetuating, with a variety of possible causes/triggers, from sound to worry to bed pressure to breathing/sinuses/allergies to hormone weirdness to undiagnosed whatever to neurotransmitter disruption and beyond. You dont have to suffer like this for the rest of your life.
@f00l Sound advice, thanks. The measures I've taken so far are because I don't want to suffer any more (and have for WAY too long). I dislike going to doctors in general, but if these home remedies don't cut it, I will make that call.
@ACraigL UGH to the vivid dreams! The ldn (which is somewhat of a miracle drug for anti-inflammation issues) has One School of Thought of YOU MUST TAKE THIS as a pm dosage which gives almost everyone the vivid dreams.
People often say "I never dream" but actually they don't remember dreams - well on this PM dosage it was Dali Dreams gone Madd and unfortunately waking up from them. Reading thru the Other School of Thought = take ldn any time you like and for a nice half year wonderful blissful sleep on AM dosing with lots of help from the ldn.
Some say they enjoy the vivid dreams. Maybe read up on how to control your dreams!
@ACraigL
Isnt getting a bit older and starting to have small biological fuckups fun??!!
Btw i notice you didn't like my "become a fully committed walking dead person" yourself very attractive.....
Are you personally prejudiced against the decaying slobbering brain-eating population?
Are you the sort who rather not marry one or live next door to one? What if your family member or child became one: would that be a problem?
Guess who's coming to dinner?
@f00l Don't take it personally. :) Despite my lack of starring, I got the parody. I appreciate all your feedback, believe me.
Also slow zombies are way cooler than fast zombies.
Day 6: I'm lucky it's the weekend.
The lightbox arrived yesterday afternoon (yay!) and I'm using it now. This things is effing BRIGHT. I plan on using it for about an hour, during my morning computer routine. After that I'll take it work and have it on while I'm at my desk in the morning hours.
So why am I lucky? I went to bed around 10PM, as I normally do. I woke up around 3AM, as I normally do. Sleep did not return until about 5AM. Had this been a weekday, I would have been a mess. As it stands, I stayed sleeping, more or less, until almost 8AM (well, 9 since since DST kicked in, but I don't include time travel in my calculations).
On the balance, I feel pretty well rested this morning, and I'm grateful. I hope this evening provides me with an improved sleep schedule.
Next up:
Continue with 3ml of melatonin, in conjunction with light therapy.
Btw what lightbox did you choose, and what factors did you consider? What do you think of it so far?
Amz link? Thx.
@f00l http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RJ26HPY
I chose this one because it was UV free, full spectrum and had good reviews overall. I think I found an article on the 10 best lightboxes and it was on it as well.
Re the sleep shepard mentioned earlier:
This was a kickstarter, then BB did a DOTD and i bought ine out of curiosity. Uses stereo sound rhythm to influence brainwaves in the direction of sleep, if i understand the theory based on a superquick skim.
Tried this weekend. Comfortable to me. A few people on Amazon seem to find it uncomfortable - i suspect some of them bought the wrong size.
It seemed to work. I did wakeup at 2am. I didnt try to go back to sleep and fail. I played w phone for a bit (bad me!) No melatonin or other sleep aid, after i bit i put on the device and went back to playing w phone. After a v few min, i feft my brain kinda "want" to sleep. Not fatique or conventional sleepiness, just a sense ok "ok sleep now". So put away phone and went right to sleep, pretty much.
The thing on the top of the device is just a control. Vol up/down, off, on. There is a little blue LED to tell you it's on. That bothers some people. If it bothered me, i'd put tape over it. There are very thin flat speakers over your ears (so thin and flat i had to feel them w fingers to be sure there in in the right spot. There are a few electrode patches to detect whatsup w your brainwave i suppose. As you can tell, i havent read the manual.
To me, comfy and good. Charges in about 1-2 hours w micro usb. Shuts off after about an hour. If you wake and want to restart it, just raise and lower your head, it kicks right up.
This seems to work in a similar fashion to the various binaural sound apps on smartphones. But no need for a phone, or a bluetooth flat speaker headband or whatever. I suspect getting the right size is important. Think mine is a large. It's not a sleep mask, but i can pull mine over my eyes and get a not-quit-mask, or you could also wear a sleep mask, tho i dont bother. Simplicity is good in this case.
Afaik this thing does not track sleep to an app, or phone home, etc.
Some users on amazon and best buy say it doesnt work for them, or have other issues. Not so surefire i would buy one w/out reading reviews. I'm fine with it after 1st use. Cannot comment on device reliabiliy.
If a friend asked, i'd say give it a try. If you order the wrong size, fix that asap, you dont want it coming off your head, and dont want discomfort.
@f00l I wish I could pull up the Wall Street Journal piece. I did save it - but I have saved way too many WSJ pieces over the year!
It was an in depth article, I think about 3 products, with the author using each for about a month. He had decided on one of the 3 to focus on, if I remember correctly and visited the lab, scientists involved, etc. Went in depth w a comparison of meditation and other sleep therapies. It was a great article - and I tried to search on WSJ but couldn't find anything.
It probably was in a Saturday and if I remember correctly (not a great thing for me to say) it was this past summer... in case someone has an online subscription to the WSJ/wants to take a stab - do a better search at this kind of thing.
Day 7: I'm unlucky it's the week.
Alternate title, 'Worst. Night. Evar.' I thought things were going to be a little better, since I introduced the light therapy. I got real wave of tiredness around 6PM and assumed that was the reason. Went to bed around 9:30 after a 2ml dose of melatonin.
Promptly woke up at 1:45AM and was unable to get back to sleep until about 5:00. Typically I'm up for two hours, so this was a really frustrating stretch for me. I even tried another hit of melatonin, and although I felt the effects, I was unable to seal the deal. I eventually got another hour in, but I'm feeling pretty wrecked this morning as it is.
Next up:
I'm chalking the behavior up to DST, but who knows? I'm planning to stick with the Melatonin/Light therapy regimen through the week and see if there is any improvement. If a negative trend continues, I'll need to bit the bullet and call a doctor. grumble, grumble
@ACraigL
My various thoughts and remarks on DST are unprintable, even by meh's standards. Did Ben Franklin do this to me? Ben, how could you? Ben you dickwad asshole.
Ok Ben i forgive you, it's your joke, and it's our fault we fell for it, a century after we arent all agrarian anymore. Ben F, if you'll make this go away, i'll buy you an Ipad or Playstation, i swear. I'll throw in Google Glass and a Tesla if i can get a good loan rate for one.
Salutations and congratulations to sane people in Arizona, Hawaii, and elsewhere.
@ACraigL
Have you tried increasing the melatonin dose? When i need it, if the first dose dosent work, i'm reckless compared to single-dosers.
No harm no foul, i was always this messed up, dont blame it on my sometimes going OD on melatonin.
@f00l
@f00l I upped it to 3ml, and that was the first night that was really bad, and the second time it was worse. Even taking more that night didn't help. So far I'm having the best result from 2ml.
Day 8: Just a short coma. Everything's fine.
I had plans last night to see The Who in concert. It was an invite deal, I didn't buy the tickets, but was looking forward to going. After my horrible night 7, there was no way I was going to make it through that, so I bailed.
Went to bed around 9:30, after 2 ml of melatonin, and definitely woke up for a stretch of about 45 minute to an hour. I managed to keep my eyes closed though and fell back to sleep. Fortunately I had the foresight to schedule a personal day off from work today and stayed asleep until about 8:30AM.
Ten hours of sleep? Are you kidding me??? Clearly I was making up for the night prior, and super-abnormal given I do need to work occasionally, but it feels good for sure. I can't handle these off/on nights for long, so hoping this begins to even out.
Next up:
Continue 2ml melatonin, and light therapy through the week. Continue my happy dance for getting a decent night's sleep.
@ACraigL It certainly is something.
Maybe knowing you were taking off work and didn't have that stress thing swirling in your mind.
... wish I had time to write more but have two huge doc appts today/tomorrow... just remember this really does take time in resetting your hormone/clock thingie (if that is the issue) and if you do see your doc - a sleep study is not only about sleep apnea but will test a variety of issues.
Day 9 should be interesting!
@ACraigL
Ok sorry all this messed up the Who for you. Mostly dont wanna do concerts or even clubs, but a great band, even in its 400th Farewell Tour can be fun.
Does Daltrey still look awesome when he unbuttons his shirt? Does he shave or die his chest hair? Can he still scream? Can Pete still hear?
Plus i hear they did 1 or 2 good tunes in their day.
@ACraigL I have a GREAT new GP! Will be perfect to bounce ideas off of as he has interned with docs in many fields. Forget what they call them now but he specializes in the use of traditional medicine + vitamins + herbs etc.
The one SLEEP issue I did bring up was the use of Vit D at nite. I am taking 4,000 units and I was splitting it up am and pm but had heard it could interfere with sleep. My last GP didn't say anything when I said I would be taking the 2,000 units at nite (even though he knew I had sleep issues) but it was confirmed today that I should be taking all 4,000 units in the a.m. and NEVER at nite!
His mother runs a vitamin shop and when I find out which one I could ask some questions as I am sure she could be a good source of knowledge.
I will see this doc every 3 months and he was interested in me getting back to him about a few things I had mentioned... so definitely not a god doc issue.
@fjp999 Everything I read agrees with your revelation.. that vitamin D is good for the circadian cycle, but basically cancels out the production of melatonin, so taking it at night is a definite no-no. Glad you found this out.
Does anything else in your health need attention? All your health issues, if you have them, can be tied in together. Esp if you dont get regular exercise, have poor posture, respiratory, metabolic, back, blood sugar issues, pain, anything chronic....
Being overweight can mess w sleep, it messes up breathing. In the short run, position changes and the pillows mentioned below can assist w this.
Are your bed and pillows comfortable? Could you be allergic to your pillows or blankets etc? These can effect breathing. If you wake up congested, some people benefit from a memory foam "wedge pillow" (amazon) (you still use regular pillows) - these elevate your head and upper body slightly, like a hospital bed. These can help w acid reflux (which can mess w your sinuses. Wedge pillows also help you sinuses drain while asleep. Some people can have sinus issues due not only to allergens etc, but due to the shape of their skull and sinus cavities. Helping sinuses drain during sleep by using a wedge pillow can help this. You can also get mem foam pillow to give comfy foot/leg positions, and these combined can help w back probs and breathing.
My sinuses improved when i switched from feather pillows and started using a wedge pillow in addition to my costco down-alt pillows. I really like them.
Have you tried any of the brainwave apps yet? If you are hoping not to deal with medication or a physician, those are side-effect free as far as i can tell, and might work, as long as you have an ios or android device snd a bluetooth headband w flat speakers (they make them for sleep)
Do you snore? No expert here, but told this can be a symptom of serious stuff, esp apnea, but also in some cases fixable by a chin strap (amazon) or change in position.
If your wife can observe you sleep, esp when deep asleep, or during early morning, assuming you can achieve early morning sleep, how steady is your breathing? Do you breathe like a sleeping child (steady, deep, regular); or are you restless, and your breathing irregular, or does it seem to stop and start? If you snore, is it light or heavy? Intermittant or constant?
Does your diet need improvement? I have zero expertise on this (or on anything), but we all know when we are being bad. If you can add in healthy stuff, or can curtail temptations, esp during the 4-5 hours prior to going to bed, it might help.
Can you figure out the triggers that wake you up in the middle of the night? Is there a pattern (certain thoughts or stresses, work, food, exercise, evening acitivites, worry, seasonal, family)? Or can you figure out the triggers that make it hard for you to get back to sleep?
Are the sounds and lightning and temperature good? Can you put a barrier between you and whatever light there is, if you dont like sleep masks? Is ths sound level good? (I much prefer having a fan, for the steady noise.) Does white noise or pink noise or one of those waterfall or wave sound machines help?
I also like a fan becausr i really like the feel of air movement. In summer, often pointed at me - in winter, usually just to circulate air. Do you sleep hot? If so, can you cool the room, or use a fan and a gel mattress topper and pillows w gel cooling inserts (costco, and wonderful)?
A camp counselor friend used to put a damp towel around his neck when he slept outdoors on hot nights.
Do you sleep cold? Can you warm the room, or your bed and blankets, or wear warmer sleep clothing? A cold natured friend wears a knit winter cap to sleep sometimes.
Some people w sleep issues who are a bit out of shape can improve their sleep just by starting to get themselves into better shape. Also makes people feel optimistic.
Endocrine issues, such as thyroid, can mess w sleep.
If someone has any sinus or allergy or breathing issues at all, awake or asleep or both, i suspect that can be a cause of sleep probs.
Hope you're doing better. :)
@f00l Lots of good things to think about, thanks for the post. I'm not overweight -- I could stand to lose 5-10 pounds, but nothing I'm overly concerned about. I used to be VERY active, but after a few setbacks, it's been hard to get back to my exercise schedule, and the lack of sleep has compounded that problem. So, no definitely not enough exercise.
In general I think I'm pretty comfortable at night, but may switch to a fan for the noise -- I have a ceiling fan in the room, but that's mostly silent (but does a good job regulating the temp).
Thanks again -- I'm adding a few points you made to my list of things to try.
@ACraigL
Celing fans are great, but i like more, both noise and air movement. I use a desk fan or box fan.
Day 9: I'm making good progress in my book.
Because I was up from 1-4am. Sigh. The bright side (and I do look hard for these), is that I got a quality 2 hours once I did get back to sleep. As my behavior suggests, I also could have slept longer, had I not needed to get up for work.
I will say that this is the first night where I was consciously thinking about work. I'm guessing that's due to the day off I took and feeling a little out of touch about what I would find when I returned. I'm also feeling a little guilty about being (my perception) less productive due to the sleep issues.
So, not a great way to restart the week, but not my worst night either.
Next up:
Stay the course. 2ml of melatonin before bed, light therapy in the morning. If there's no change by the weekend, I'll introduce a new thing. Either vitamin D or a brainwave regulator. Oh, and I'll add a fan as white noise in my bedroom. Probably tonight.
@ACraigL
If you add a fan, you might take a few nights to get used to it. Not me, but then i really did live across the street from a foundry for 5 years. They started up at 3:30am M-F. I was young and healthy, so was able to learn to ignore, while still waking up for sirens that were actually on my street.
Was able to distinguish "that siren is just on the cross street" and sleep thru it, while waking for sirens actually on my block. (Bright lights big city, so to speak. Lotsa sirens, important to "know" when not to wake up.)
Day 10: Nothing to see here.
Added a fan. Stuck to melatonin and light therapy. No change. Woke up at 2am, drifted back to sleep around 5am, got up at 6:20 for work. That's two bad nights in a row. Hopefully I can escape the rut tonight.
Next up:
Keep on keepin' on.
@ACraigL I've been following along as I've bouts of irregular sleeping patterns before, but nothing like what you're dealing with. :(
Here's hoping you will find a solution.
Power Naps. If you can...
I am sure that a Sleep Study will explain a lot after re-reading what you wrote about your neck injury and what you go thru in your sleep patterns. Sleep apnea is not the only thing they study in these things but it reads like you are not in a comfortable body position for sleep then wake up then get into a mind fuck about work related stress to get back to sleep.
Before you have a chance to do the study just keep doing what you are doing (I really think you should get out of bed after waking up, do something like eating a tiny snack &/or read a technical (boring for you) something ... but keep the lights low etc... and get back in bed. If it is hormonal (melatonin and light therapy and vit d) and you plan on doing this on your own it may take some time! I was talking to one of my best friends who is now back in India. She agreed about melatonin saying most of the world needs a script (even in India) and most people expect things to change overnight.
My expectation on this LDN to reduce inflation thru-out my body is not to see any dramatic changes in six months to a year so whenever I see any changes before that timeframe I am pleasantly surprised.
Day 11: Ahhhhh... that hit the spot.
I really needed that. Total exhaustion kicked in after two horrendous nights, so I left work yesterday at 3:00PM. Got home around 4, and took a nap (a real rarity for me) until about 6PM. Got up, had dinner, then went back to bed around 10PM. Woke up several times during the night, but none of them resulted in substantial awake time -- I don't think I even opened my eyes -- and slept until my alarm sounded at 6:20AM.
I noted two small differences in my routine last night. First, I made the fan in the room a little louder/faster. Volume 2 as it were. Second, I actually forgot to take the melatonin. Probably not a big deal given that it's intended to make you sleepy -- and I'm pretty sleepy already, believe me -- but it got me thinking...
Since I already have no problem falling asleep, maybe I should be using it only when I have trouble falling back to sleep. Brain chemicals are a weird thing, and I wonder if when the evening dosage wears off, it's signaling to my brain it's time to wake up? Maybe a dumb theory, but we'll see. Weekends are generally better for me as I'm not stressed about wakeup time.
Again, it was probably my body playing catch-up, but whatever the reason, I'm very grateful for the rest I managed to get last night.
Next up:
Try shifting the melatonin to deal with periods of wakefulness, rather than before bedtime. Continue with light therapy and increased white noise (fan speed). When I get more rest, I'm more apt to exercise, so there's a possibility I'll pick that up this weekend as well.
@ACraigL Not a dumb theory at all - that's why the Midnite says to keep it on your nightstand.
Day 12: Older, less painful patterns resurfacing?
As I've gotten older, and something I think is fairly common with that phenomenon, I've tended to wake up earlier. Whereas my newer sleep issues revolve around waking up WAY too early and not resuming sleep, there was a good long while where I'd simply wake up earlier than I'd like.
This was the case this morning. No melatonin for me last night, went to bed around 10:30, slept through until 5:30AM. Tried to fall back to sleep but no luck. While a little disappointed, I think this is a far healthier pattern than my current one, and seven hours of continuous sleep is definitely not the worst thing that ever happened to me. Too soon to tell, but maybe I'm onto something here...
Next up:
Only administer melatonin if waking prematurely, continue with light therapy and loud fan.
@ACraigL
Fwiw i do melatonin only when wake up and cant go back to sleep and want to.
Also, fwiw, i am reckless with it if first dose doesnt work. Do more. Then if need be more. Repeat. That's just me, can't make it an example.
Also, fwiw, reckless only w melatonin. And Oeos and Girl Scout cookies.
Melatonin on bedstand w water bottle.
GS cookies and Oreos not in house unless i fall into darkness while shopping.
I re-read your last post (vacation sleep post) and that seems to be the key here.
I believe I was wrong about you not being able to sleep with your pain issues... and somewhere you wrote being able to sleep in hotels easily.
Do you think this 5:30am wake up thing was true during your vacation? or were you able to stay asleep later?
Even though I can set my own time I decided to start my day at 11:30 am and this seemingly has set some kind of internal clock! I really wanted to, needed to sleep longer this morning/afternoon but NOPE! Naturally woke up at 11:25am and couldn't go back to sleep for even half an hour as desired.
I personally would not recommend an attempt to script to anti-depressants to anyone unless one was suicidal etc. but I have been advised by my psychiatrist that anti-anxiety meds can be used as needed.
This is very different than with anti-depressants which has to have a constant flow in the body/brain, has some really bad side effects and may need to change multiple times to find the correct type and take many many months before a successful treatment is found.
If one does have a good GP or Psych a script for an anti-anxiety med can be scripted that has a lower rate of dependency and will not only help with anxiety but sleep. They can often be cut in half, in discussion with the doc on how you want to start out on dosing/testing a theory about sleep.
Day 13: Maybe I'm on to something?
Went to bed a bit later than usual, around 11PM. Woke up about 3:45AM. Tried to get back to sleep on my own for about 30 minutes, unsuccessfully. Got up and took a 2.5ml dose of melatonin. While I felt the effects, it did not seem to help me to sleep, at least not right away. Best guess is that I fell back to sleep around 5AM and remained so until about 8:30 (that's seriously sleeping in for me).
So, on the whole, a good night. I'm still concerned about weekday rest as the post-wake sleep will be far more limited. I'll focus on taking the melatonin a bit sooner if it happens, and perhaps that will maximize my rest a bit more.
Tonight should be interesting. But I hope not.
Next up:
Continue with light therapy. Act on melatonin more quickly upon premature wake up.
@ACraigL Melatonin comes in a nasal spray for immediate absorption. Interesting article here, and I will go research further myself: http://www.naturalremedies.org/melatonin/
@OldCatLady Thanks, will have a look. The liquid seems to work pretty quickly -- in minutes -- so not sure I would need something faster. More importantly, I already take a nasal allergy spray, so I'd be concerned about shooting more stuff up my sinus cavity. But appreciate the heads up on it all the same. Good to know there's a few options out there.
@OldCatLady The ldn I make up is in liquid form and I make-believe it is in a sublingual form (I let it sit under my tongue for a bit before swallowing) not sure if it absorbed any faster or not but can't hurt.
Just found this GQ article in my inbox tonite:
http://www.gq.com/story/how-to-get-healthy-sleep?mbid=nl_20160318_daily&CNDID=2154312&spMailingID=8688665&spUserID=MTA5OTMzNzQ2NzE5S0&spJobID=882244761&spReportId=ODgyMjQ0NzYxS0
It is only 3 steps (and written nearly 2 years ago) but still seems to be valid.
@fjp999 Thanks. The only thing (besides the Jawbone) I'm not doing is exercising in the morning (and almost not at all, for other reasons). Definitely a few solid ideas in there though. Thanks for passing it along.
Day 14: Just a good night.
That was unexpected. Went to bed around 10:30ish (after Walking Dead, natch). Woke up about a half a dozen times, but never so much that it kept me from falling back to sleep within a few minutes. When I finally did open my eyes, it was around 5AM. "Not bad.", I thought and was planning to ride it out for another 30 minutes then get up.
I was almost shocked when my alarm, at 6:20AM, woke me up. I fell back to sleep again! And could have slept even longer, apparently.
I feel good today, particularly after getting decent sleep over the weekend. I can't say for sure why last night was so good. Maybe light therapy is working? Maybe just keeping this as a form of a journal is having mental benefits? Happy either way.
Next up
Don't change a thing. I might even watch WD again just to get another another night like that.
@ACraigL so maybe at Day 3 @f00l and his comment about joining the zombie club wasn't too off!
(those are zombies, right?)
Glad you are Happy!
@fjp999
@ACraigL
Yes! The Walking Dead is a great first step! Now think about going with Brainz-brand food for dinner.
You can do this!
Day 15: Seeing the doctor today
Another 'wake at 4AM' night. Tried to resume sleep for about 20 minutes, then took melatonin. I was back to sleep by 5AM or so.
Fortunately, I'm working remotely today for an afternoon doctor's appointment and got to sleep in a little longer than usual. The appt is actually for chronic knee pain (suddenly appeared mid-Feb and never went away -- not ready to admit I'm just old) but I will be sure to mention my irregular sleep patterns as well. I'll post back with his input.
Next up:
See a doctor, get rid of it.
@ACraigL
Never hurts to talk w one, in my personal experience. They may come up w something good, and you can tell the physician you wont go along with a particular treatment if there's something about it you dont like.
I do like to give my doctors the benefit of the doubt, unless something is a real problem. That said, i have only 1 current prescription, it's lightweight.
@ACraigL Beg the doctor for samples of Flector patches, which contain a topical painkiller. If he gives you a script, fill it after you catch your breath; it's a bit costy. Cut each 'patch' into 4- 8 sections, and apply one to the painful spot on the knee. Leave it on 18- 24 hours; they continue to release painkiller for that long.
@OldCatLady Ooh! Will do. Thanks!
I got Ambien! Will let you know how it goes tomorrow...
@ACraigL Be careful- I read that online purchasing can be a side effect of Ambien. Especially at midnight EST.
@ACraigL WoW! What dosage did your doc start you on? Did you get anything for your knee pain? I am guessing you will NOT be taking the melatonin. Did he say it was OK to keep doing the light therapy?
I am on the generic of Ambien 10mg and believed I could take it long before bedtime but my psych said to take it just before I was going to sleep as it is very fast acting. No reading or watching tv in bed just close your eyes and let that shit take effect.
Fingers crossed you will get a good 6+ hours of sleep.
@fjp999
@ACraigL
Is Ambien good for taking long term? Habit forming? Have never used it.
I tried a sleeping med once, during a really streesful time. 25 years ago? I think it was restoril. Whatever it was, it worked well enuf getting me to sleep, but i had a paradoxical side effect where i was way wired the next night and could not sleep at all. The wakefullness got worse each night. I went off it cold turkey, and called the doc to report. The side effect was unusual, but not unknown. He would have preferred i tapered rather than quit, but too late for that.
I havent tried a sleeping med since.
@f00l I have been on Ambien for a very very long time as well as a couple of additional things that help me to sleep. Sometimes I will wake up after a few hours and will usually be able to go back to sleep (my condition is not well known - Post-Interferon Syndrome from Hep C treatment of nearly a decade ago - I became undetectable for Hep C but the treatment has left me 100% disabled) ... thus all the meds (and unfortunately heavy research that brings some knowledge).
Stress makes it less likely for me to get back to sleep. Then I also have a verified case of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome where any rest that I do get is not restorative and I take another medication to just keep me awake and the cycle goes on and on.
The literature says Ambien it NOT good for long term use but everyone is different and I feel the effect immediately when I take it (even after all these years). It does have an extremely short half life!
I have some thought on what effects addiction and I do not believe I have ever been addicted to a substance. I have quit a number of chemicals cold turkey without issue (this includes 10 years of cigarettes) - coffee may be the only test left.
There are so many different sleep meds out there I was actually thinking of asking my new GP of switching... I just read that Ambien has a CR (controlled-released) form which may be better for me.
@fjp999
Sorry to hear that you have a list of serious long term health issues.
I am like you in that the only drug i cant quit for any length of time is caffiene. I've never gotten away from it for more than 6 months. Dont want to do without it right now!
@fjp999 @f00l My doctor administered a 6.5mg of the Ambien CR, specifically because he recognized my issue is not falling asleep but waking up prematurely. He did mention short vs long term usage of the drug, citing that it is intended to be shorter duration, but some have been on it for years with no notable side effects.
I mentioned the light therapy (he immediately associated that with depression, not circadian rhythms) but he didn't have much opinion on it and left it up to me to continue using it. I will for now. As for the melatonin, I think I can still use it if I prematurely wake, but more on that in a bit.
As for the knee pain, his initial assessment was that it appeared to be meniscus related, possibly a small tear. He ordered x-rays (which I got already but are really only perfunctory as we'll need an MRI to determine what actually wrong). I can't do much with pain management as it will randomly get very painful, then quickly subside. He did recommend a brace to help stabilize it until we know more. I also got a script for PT to help me strengthen the muscles and tendons around the knee. I think that's odd without knowing what's actually wrong, but maybe it's OK?
Update to follow.
@f00l Thanks. It is all cool actually. I have become an advocate for myself and with a few others made big changes on the biggest health forums thus hopefully have helped a few people around the world.
With research showing that strong doses (like espresso) in moderation is actually good for one I (haven't even tried and) won't be trying to kick this little pleasure I give myself with a couple hot drinks of liquid gold!
@ACraigL Ohhhhh, I so want Ambien CR now!!!
PT can be a blessing but it is possible to make it much worse and you are wise to question your doc.
My friend had a pain around her knee and went to see a doc. This doc twisted her leg causing the pain to flair and, unlike before, quickly subside, last thru a couple of days! When she started crying out telling him to stop - he said he wasn't doing anything wrong!
My friend got off his table and left his office. An MRI showed that it was a (specific kind of) cyst!
btw, I know I am really odd... but I find MRIs really relaxing.
Day 16: Saw the doctor yesterday
After a lengthy discussion and treatment options for my knee pain, I brought up the history of my sleeping patterns. He offered that most of his advice would be techniques to help fall asleep, but since that is not my issue, we decided on medication.
As I said above, he prescribed 6.5mg Ambien CR (controlled release) with the theory that since it slowly releases the drug over time, it would help me stay asleep.
Took the drug at 9:00PM. Started feeling the effects about 20 minutes later and was probably asleep by 9:30PM. While I definitely woke up during the night, it was only to turn over, and I quickly resumed sleep. I woke up for good around 5AM. Not ideal, but that puts me in the 7-8 hour sweet spot for sleep, and I'll take it. I have no residual effects from the Ambien that I'm aware of as I write this.
I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, as I've had similar nights without the Ambien, but it will be interesting to see how consistent my results are while using the medication vs without.
@ACraigL I haven't fully read all the posts in this thread, but has anyone mentioned stimulus control? One of the main things (aside from the usual "no screens"/etc. advice) is that if you can't fall asleep, you should get out of bed and do something low-key. Eventually you'll just be so exhausted that you'll fall asleep, and over time this practice will train your brain to fall asleep quickly.
It seems to be in reasonably good standing in the scientific consensus (at least according to a clinical health psychologist in this Reddit thread). I don't suffer from extreme insomnia, but in times when I can't seem to fall asleep, just staying awake and trying again several hours later gets me back in a good cycle. Even though this is advice for getting to sleep, not staying asleep, it might be worth trying (if you haven't tried it already). E.g. if you wake up and can't get back to sleep, just stay up, and perhaps you'll be tired enough to have more success the next day?
@ACraigL I wish you the very best..Ambien Cr helped me quite a bit. However, my dr will no longer prescribe it for me because of the Alzhiemer's risk.. I tried to quickly find the article I read at the time, but here is one that might have helpful links.
I hesitate to post this because I don't want you to miss an opportunity to feel better :(
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/newoldage/2014/09/24/study-links-anxiety-drugs-to-alzheimers-disease/?referer=
@cutroil Thanks for the comment. A few have mentioned it, and I do basically subscribe to that practice. Unfortunately, my issue hasn't been falling asleep, it's staying asleep. While still a form of insomnia, my variety is a little harder to treat with stimulus control.
@mikibell Nothing comes for free, I guess. :(
I'll have a closer look at that article, but I have no plans to stay with Ambien long term. I have a 15 day run right now, and I'm just hoping that's enough to get me back on a normalish schedule.
But it's important to know all the risks and considerations, so thanks for passing this information along.
@ACraigL Ah, sorry to hear that. Best of luck.
@mikibell As @ACraigL has said it perfectly - having all info on a med is vital... and it is pretty amazing that Ambien is scripted in such huge numbers especially to the elderly!
This is what is says on the inserts that come with many of my meds "Remember that your doctor has prescribed this medicine because he or she has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects.".
Last summer, I think it was last summer UGH!, CNN together with Mayo Clinic ran a special about Glen Campbell and his declining condition of Alzheimer's.
Since I cannot even remember the timeframe that it ran I won't claim to say I recall much of the medical info but it was crazy impressive! Mayo can now diagnose a person living with Alzheimer's. It seems that depending where the disease has progressed - they may be able to halt that progression with medication but not reverse it. I believe in GCs' case it was too late to halt.
Not sure if the program is available for streaming - http://www.cnn.com/shows/glen-campbell-ill-be-me
Interferon (chemo - low dose for Hep C treatment - I was on it for 72 weeks) left me with chemo brain (brain fog) or Cognitive Impairment (which they say is one step before Alzheimer's... I won't go thru my CV but had a Semi-Pro business at Jr. High and a very successful fashion line which I ran before treating. The brain fog was so bad I would stand up to do something and before lifting a foot had forgotten why I had stood up.
Luckily I had discovered Cerefolin NAC which is a Nestle Pharma food grade script for Cognitive Impairment. It has an Amino Acid along with high doses of vitamin Bs and breaks thru the brain barrier. Within the first week I had great memory improvements - not perfect but I recall daily details I thought I had no chance of ever bringing back.
Even with insurance covering co-pays can be expensive but I fought and was crazy lucky to have medicaid to pick it up at $3/month.
My new gp says more and more docs/people will be talking about this in the future!
@fjp999
Really glad you found a path back to feeling like you owned your life.
@ACraigL oh good..I didn't want to be THAT person. ..thank you for taking my post in the spirit it was intended. Your dr has an "m.d." after his/her name..I have nothing :)
@fjp999 I agree with being well informed, and thank the miracle of science for keeping me healthy. I hope you continue to feel better!!
@f00l Not much of a choice really... sink or swim - plus being an optimistic realist helps a ton. So much credit goes to the friendly folk at the forum of medhelp.org (I can only really recommend the HepC side - such knowledge (but the new format is horrible).
@mikibell Thanks and back at ya!
I believe in science as well but for me it is a catch 22. I wish the FDA would be a little more protective of the consumer as well as the Supreme Court - where few seem to know ruled against consumers being able to sue generic drug makers if there was ever an issue with a script they were given!
Looking at alt medicine has never left me with a positive feeling.
Day 17: Ambien, I think I love you
My second night on Ambien CR and it was a good one. Took the pill around 9:30PM, in bed by 10. Not only did I sleep through the night -- honestly, I don't even recall waking up -- but slept until 6am. Once again, I don't feel any residual effects from it either, other than feeling like aI slept a lot.
Coffee now.
It was, as far as I can remember, the best night I had in months, maybe a year. I'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses in the next week or so.
In other news I purchased a gel foam memory topper in today's woot-off, so we'll see if that helps as well.
Next up:
Continue with 6.5mg Ambien CR, light therapy. Probably won't see the mattress topper for a few days, but will get that on the books when it arrives.
@ACraigL About the mattress topper- I strongly recommend that you open it in the garage, or a spare bedroom, or somewhere it can outgas for a few days. Yes, it's unwieldy. Yes, you will need new deeper sheets. However, mine made a huge difference in my sleep. I have what is politely called a bad back, arthritis in assorted areas, etc., and now I don't wake up hurting. I hope you benefit from yours as much as I have.
@ACraigL
@mikibell Ha. I'm not declaring victory solely based on 2 nights, but I do like the trend. It's made a huge difference, those two nights. Even my wife said I wasn't that much of a dick today. Fingers crossed for night #3.
@ACraigL oh..I think any good night sleep is a victory!! I also think a day off is one, or when my daughter empties the dishwasher, or my son takes a shower without arguing... :) hehehe your wife is funny..
I have now tried the sleepshepard i mentioned earlier on 3-4 nights. No insomnia, just checking it out.
Seems to work on me. Which is to say, i go to sleep faster and sleep more soundly, afaik. I know i wind up either turning over less, or not waking up at all when i turn over.
The effect is quite similar to that of the android/ios app with the bluetooth headband that has tiny flat speakers over the ears, or the app w a sleep mask that has speakers.
Some amazon reviewers seem not to get any value, fwiw.
I expect to see more sophisticated devices in the near future.
Day 18: Not as good as some, better than most
Not much to report today. Same schedule, Ambien at 9:30, asleep by 10. Slept straight through again (yay!) but work up at 4:45. Certainly not ideal, but not terrible. Once again the weekend may help with additional rest, and reinforcement of the better sleeping patterns.
Next up:
Samers.
Day ??: Stayin' the course
Didn't post all weekend (that may be a good thing) because the pattern has been essentially the same. Bed at 10PM, wake between 5-6AM. I would like to sleep longer, but I think I can confidently say that the Ambien IS working -- I've not been up for any extended period of time, and even better, haven't had the need to get out of bed since I've been on it.
I started taking it last Tuesday, so I'm almost halfway through my 15-day run. Will be sure to let you guys know if the pattern continues to hold and if I'm able to continue it once I'm off it.
As it is, I definitely feel more rested, and able to do more when I get home from work. Stay tuned...
@ACraigL
Day 21
@ACraigL
Your sleep is going quite a bit better than my ncaa brackets!
Day 22 (thanks @DVDBZN): Good nights, earlyish days
Well, I think I can safely say at this point that Ambien works. From the first, it allowed me to sleep through the night without extended waking. While I'm (still) happy about that change, my wakeup time has been slowing shifting from 6AM, to 5AM and now 4:30 this morning.
Going to bed around 9:30 has made this manageable, but I'm still pretty beat up by the end of the (very long) day. I'm very thankful, though, that I can get through the night anxiety-free.
Next up:
Continue regimen. If 5AM wake-up continues, I will (try I swear I will try) get out of bed and use the time to exercise, at least to the extent that my knee issues will allow.
@ACraigL I've got some 1.5 lb ankle weights you can use for leg lifts. Do about 20 on each leg for me, wouldja? Then some side leg lifts, same. Both can be done lying on the bed. TVM.
@OldCatLady scheduling PT this week. If they tell me to do the same thing I promise to default to any advice you offer me.
@ACraigL I was going to ask when your MRI was scheduled for.
@fjp999 Doc want me to the PT first. After about 3 weeks if there's no improvement, he'll schedule the MRI.
Day 23: Ambien, you monster.
I mentioned to my doc yesterday that the Ambien was really working, and I was getting perhaps the most consistent sleep in months. He asked how often I'm taking it. "Everyday!" I exclaimed proudly.
He didn't like that and suggested that I not only use it "as needed" but to begin weening myself off it this weekend. 6.5mg isn't a lot to ween off, I thought, and since I was close to passing out on my own last night, I went without.
That was a mistake. Or maybe Ambien was the mistake in the first place? Not sure. What I do know is I went to bed around 10PM, woke at 1AM, then had a ragged sleep/wake pattern until 3:30AM. Been up since. Called in sick to work.
Not good.
Since I'm home, I hope to nap a bit, and perhaps cut the tab in half tonight.
Next up:
Nap, Half an Ambien, maybe a nice salad.
@ACraigL You only took liquid melatonin before, right? Have you considered the time release capsules?
@narfcake Sort of. My thought was that if I woke up in the middle of the night the liquid would fast-track me back to sleep (it didn't last night). My concern around the time release was that it may keep me groggy if I wake before it runs it's course.
But you make a good point, and will look that way if I don't normalize this evening.
@ACraigL Since I wasn't in the office with you and didn't hear you explain your situation...
If you explained it in any way how you explained it here then your doc didn't hear you as you "As Needed" = Every day!
I also do not think that you mentioned your doc saying "as needed". Did he?
I suggest that you try the half dose tonite and if you a mess again then give your doc a call again explaining that somewhere in your visit things got lost in translation and you have a very serious sleep issue - telling him what you have tried for the past few days CALLING OFF SICK etc. um... if all goes well on the half dose + mel then continues that way until you are off ambien then please disregard this rant
btw, this also give me the chance to add a bit about pt vs MRI. You already questioned why this doc would order pt before knowing the condition without an MRI. I agree.
When I had pt they were really great people interested in doing the best for the patient. I would bring it up that you are concerned about your condition not being properly diagnosed. They may be able to get that MRI done quicker! They do not want to be involved in hurting you (or a lawsuit if they really do damage because your doc did not do his job).
edit - sorry, I just woke up and that should probably be edited a lot for
Day 24: Man, yesterday was rough
That was a bad one. Surprised I was able to articulate much at all. In the end, I opted for the full Ambien tablet last night with the planing of going halfsies this weeked. I couldn't afford two days in a row like I had yesterday, AND I need to be chipper for my father's 80th birthday dinner tomorrow night.
That said, I had another good Ambien-enhanced sleep last night (9:30PM-5:30AM) and feel pretty good this morning. We'll see how the weekend goes, but for now I'll take one more full dose for tomorrow, then start the reduction.
Next up:
Full Ambien tab tonight, half over the weekend. I'm still continuing with light therapy (really, not sure this does anything) and my mattress topper arrived, which currently being aired out for the next few days.
Apparently you're not the only one with a sleep issue. Next week the 'Today' show- I think- will have a series on the topic.
@OldCatLady Will look for that. Misery loves company. :P Thanks!
Given that you are willing to do ambien and other medical interventions: am curious about your attitude - would you be willing to try taking enough melatonin to get yourself to sleep (short of a third of a Walmart bottle tabs say), or grinding up the mini-balls in a broken-open Benadryl capsule and taking those (must grind, see above), or using one of the brainwave sound apps, or, working w a physician, trying a prescription ssri (Prozac, etc), or Effexor, or Wellbutrin, to see if any of those have a pos effect, or doing a full out sleep study (sometimes can be done at home I hear) to get pulse ox results and poss more info?
Most of the above suggestions are pretty harmless, tho try on a weekend 1st time if poss. The prescriptions are, of course, not to be used lightly. I do know tons of people they've helped, me included, they are for daily use no prob, most people are only on the for short intervals, perhaps a few months, I've never known anyone who has probs getting off, either cold turkey or tapering. They are not addictive in any conventional sense (little street interest), have no dementia link I know of, and the annoying side effects some people experience can usually be fixed by a swap out. And if you have no related symptoms of neurotransmitter weirdness, you'll likely only be in anything for a few months. (I have ZERO expertise, don't trust me re any prescription.)
Just me, but I'd rather do any of the above before trying any sleep med, or med in the Xanax class. Even if nothing above worked, I'd ( just me again) prob avoid Ambien and like meds, or Xanax class meds - might just sooner go without sleep. I have No expertise, as mentioned above, but family member anesthesiologist does not like it when patients are on those meds other than just before surgery or similar v short term situation. He always worries, and not just over short-term issues for pts.
@f00l I don't know that I'm opposed to any of the home remedies you've suggested, but I would prefer not to change too many things all at once, so I can get a better idea of what works and what doesn't. I do know that drugs like Ambien are serious business and I did not accept taking it lightly.
I'm only a few days out from completing the script, so we'll see if that made a lasting difference, need to continue, or should try something else.
Trying Poly cyclic Sleep. three sleep shits 9-12:30 (honestly don't fall asleep till about 10), 6-7/8 am 12:30-1/1:30 PM feel mostly pretty good
@Foxborn The typo made me double-take, feel bad for you, then had my chuckling. Thanks?
I'm almost doing that out of current behavior/necessity now, though that's certainly not planned. My life really doesn't allow for that type of lifestyle, though I do see how it could work for some. Even when I'm desperate for sleep I often have difficulty napping.
The focus of my experiments is to try to get a "normal" stretch of sleep so I don't have to impact the rest of my life (i.e. missing concerts, calling in sick, etc). But thanks for the suggestion!
Day 24/25: Half is enough? Huh.
)
(I'm skipping a few days of this log here and there if it's repetitive behavior; you guys are probably super-bored of these updates as it is
I was out Friday with extended family celebrating my Father's 80th birthday. Needless to say, I had to have a few drinks. :)
I probably had 3 beers and 2 glasses of wine over a 6 hour period (first 2 beers was around 4pm happy hour, with a 2 hour grace period between it and my next drink). I was pretty sober when I got home, but was a little concerned about mixing the Ambien with any alcohol (as warned by my GP) and went to bed without. I was also fall-down tired, and figured it would be OK?
Nope.
In bed around 12am, woke at 2:45am. Tried to resume sleep on my own for a while, but couldn't. Eventually took half an Ambien (3.25mg) and moved to the basement to watch some TV. Fell asleep around 5ish and woke at 7:45am. With the extra sleep, it wasn't a terrible day, but not wonderful, either.
Last night I took the other half of Ambien at 9:30PM, in bed/asleep by 10:15 or so. Slept through the night (Woo!) until just about 6AM.
This is the EXACT same behavior I was exhibiting on a full Ambien tablet
This is exciting stuff!
Next up:
Continue with light therapy, continue to cut Ambien dosage in half this week. If I continue to get the same results I'll probably half it again next weekend.
@ACraigL
You sleep is still doing better than my brackets. :p
@ACraigL "(I'm skipping a few days of this log here and there if it's repetitive behavior; you guys are probably super-bored of these updates as it is
)"
Not only are the updates NOT super boring but actually very important to many of us.
I just ordered those Anti Glare and Non Reflective Blue Ray Blockers Glasses recommended here n they are arriving today!
Something you might try...i have been messing w this app for a few days, seems to work pretty well.
SnoreLab. IOS and Android. Free w paid upgrades.
You turn it on, phone on charger, obviously, when you go to sleep, and it records and analyzes your snoring. Snoring is usually evidence of lowered qual of sleep. The info seems to me pretty good. You can play back recordings (thought i was suddenly loud snoring 6am, but it was an alarm in another room that i sleep thru. Playing the recording makes this clear.) You can tell if snoring or other noise or turning over.
Data storage isnt heavy and can be controlled by auto or manual settings. You can save samples to play to a physician. It can save or delete day by day if you want.
Pay version is $5 and gets you more archiving options, i think. Not sure, because i went ahead and paid.
Have tried this both w a silent room and with pink noise and waterfall type room noises. The app seems to have no prob telling steady ambient noise from snoring.
I am a light rare/occasional intermittent snorer at present. Snoring increases with sinus probs, breathing probs, nasal congestion, metabolic disorders, age, and physical condition. In my case i'm not young and not in shape.
Some people need to manage nasal passages and the like (breathing strips) or deal w allergies or other sinus issues. For other people the issue might be related to teeth grinding, tongue placement during sleep, or the issues at the back of the mouth or in the throat (internet info). In my case a chin strap w velcro seems to fix it - have tried using the app w and w/out the chinstrap. No noise at all on chinstrap nites.
Some people might need diff pillows, or control allergies, or get a mem foam wedge pillow to help their sinusescdrain normally.
So far i like the app and am getting used to the anti-snoring chinstrap - its ok but gonna get a better one now i know it works.
Fwiw i can use the chinstrap just fine w the sleep shepard device, which i am also liking.
The only thing i dont like about the app - if you use it to play pink noise or whatever, it shuts that off pretty quick, the shutoff wakes me up. So i use another device for sleep noise if i want them.
These chinstraps can be had from amazon of course.
Fixing snoring wont likely fix early am wakening, but is still good for you to fixit, and your DR will like getting that info.
Also if you grind your teeth you need to know, and consult doctor and dentist about it.
@f00l That's pretty neat. I'm not usually a snorer because I can't sleep on my back, but seems pretty harmless to try and see what it hears. Thanks!
Day 26: Half the Ambien I used to be.
Quick one today... Half dose continues to do the job, slept about 8 hours last night. I did wake a few times, but was able to resume sleep quickly.
Next up:
Continue with half-tabs this week. Deep pocket sheets arrive Tuesday, so I'll add in the gel memory foam topper into the mix and see if that alters sleep behavior in any way.
@ACraigL Still cheering you on!!
@mikibell Just very quietly so as to not wake you up!
Day 28: Mattress Topper/Sleep Stopper?
My mattress topper had been airing out for almost a week, and the new (deep pocket) sheets arrived yesterday. I was looking forward to my evening. Sleeping on that topper -- about a 3 inch memory gel/foam thing -- was interesting. It was certainly comfortable but I found that it puts me in a slightly different (better?) alignment than I've been used to. I may need to acclimate to it over a period of time.
What I found after a first night with it was that I may need less pillow elevation. As mention previously, I'm a side sleeper. After a few minutes the weight of my shoulder would depress the topper and give me 1-2 inches of additional height to my head/neck, which I found uncomfortable. I'm already beginning to wonder if this is really more ideal for someone sleeping on their back.
In any case, I went to bed around 10pm, woke about 4:15am. Didn't really get back to sleep, but I think I managed doze off a bit around 5:30-6:00am.
Next up:
Stick to the plan. Half an Ambien, ride out the week with the topper, continue white noise (fan) and light therapy.
@ACraigL Think of it as fine-tuning an engine. I'm a side sleeper, and I use one shredded memory foam pillow with the gel foam topper. The cervical and lumbar spine and hip problems went away after I got everything adjusted.
Day 29: Pillow Talk
Following @OldCatLady's advice, I tuned my sleeping configuration a bit. Turns out the secret formula was one less pillow. Huh. I was more comfortable last night, but still getting used to it (after 14 years on the mattress without a topper, I guess it will take some doing).
In other news, it was a different kind of night, and I think the first time I woke prematurely since starting the Ambien. Went to bed around 9:30, woke at 2:45AM. Last time I recall looking at the clock, it was about 3:30. I did manage to stay in bed, and fell back to sleep sometime after that. Good sleep too, as I was deep in a dream when my alarm went off -- and I can't remember the last time I needed my alarm to get up on time.
Overall, I feel pretty good this morning. Curious what tonight brings.
Next up:
No change. Stick with my current setup, seeing if positive or negative pattern forms through the weekend. I am considering halving the tablet, down to a quarter-tab this weekend.
@ACraigL Very good news!
Update! Please.
@OldCatLady On the way ;)
Day 30-33: My Frst Melatonin Hangover. Yay?
I know I've been a little lax in keeping this updated, and I think it's because I'd like to report better news then come off as just complaining about this stuff.
Both Friday and Saturday had me waking up around 4:30AM. Getting to bed around 9:30-10PM makes this tolerable, but it's certainly not what I'd like to be doing.
Sunday night was maybe the worst night in a while, waking at 3AM and that was it. I even shut off my alarm in hopes that knowing I could sleep later would ease my anxiety about falling asleep but it did not help.
Mind you, all of this is happening while I'm on (a half tab of) Ambien AND the mattress topper AND using light therapy. Worse, I woke up pretty stiff, with achy shoulders and neck on Monday. I can't say if that's because of activity over the weekend, poor sleep, or early-morning musical couches, but it's not helping things.
I did shamble into work yesterday, but because I was so tired, I left early, and got myself into bed by 9PM. During the day, I picked up time-release 5mg melatonin tablets and took 2 of them before bed. Since the Ambien seemed to longer be working, I wanted to give this a try.
I managed to sleep through the night (no recollection of waking up) and got up around 5AM. That should be enough sleep, but I don't feel particularly rested and I guess a little groggy from the larger dose of melatonin. Neck and shoulders still hurt -- between the two, I almost feel like I have the flu. So, yeah, things aren't super-amazing right now.
Next up:
I'm considering taking the mattress topper out of the mix -- in looking back it might be making things worse. I'll lower the dosage of the melatonin to a single, 5MG tablet.
Then I might cry a little. Also, light therapy is dumb.
@ACraigL :(
(Can't say I'm doing much better here; I've been up for over 3 hours now.)
@narfcake I can't recall -- is that normal for you or just a bad night?
@ACraigL Bad night. I have my bouts of waking up, but I'm usually able to fall back to sleep without much trouble.
@ACraigL As a fairly hardcore insomniac, you have my sympathies. I am desperately wishing I could wean off my sleep meds, but I quit napping before I was even two years old. I used to go at least one night a week without sleep and the other nights average 4 hours. This was fine in my youth, but now things get a little dicey. With a combination of 2 meds, I get an average of six hours but every few months I go through a phase where I sleep at most four a night. Without meds, I get about 3 every night.
Good news! Remember when i said it felt like i have a flu? Well, I have the fucking flu.
See? It wasn't a sleep issue, it ws the onset of a horrible illness.
Crap.
Upside, I just woke up from a three hour nap. Nyquil here I come.
@ACraigL At least you're napping? Sorry man, hope you feel better soon.
@jaremelz Thanks for the well wishes.
@ACraigL I'm sorry you have the flu. You didn't have to share it with me, though maybe mine is only a cold. Dayquil and Nyquil are wonderful inventions. Viruses aren't.
@OldCatLady @ACraigL: Blame the goat for being sick!
(But seriously, get well soon. Lots of water and lots of rest.)
I had the same problem for years. Only thing that really helped was a small dose of trazodone. It's a really old anti depressant used at 250mg+ for.depression. But fer sleep, 25-50 mg is all most people need. It doesnt have a bunch of weird side effects like most of the prescription sleep aids that have come out in the last 15 or 20 years. I hate to suggest meds, but your problem sounds just like mine. No problem with sleep initiation, but would wake up between 3'and 4 and not be able to go to sleep. I would have weeks of sleeping 4-5 hours a night, which really affected my quality of life.
ETA: I didn't see that this thread was so long. This has.probably been suggested already. I'll leave this post up just in case it hasn't.
@cation That specific drug wasn't mentioned, so thanks. I'm still playing with my Ambien/Melatonin dosages, but the flu has me all kinds of messed up. I'm getting about 5-6 hours of sleep a night (basically until the Nyquil wears off) then getting a 2-3 hour nap during the day.
It will be very interesting to see how next week shakes out after all this.
Day Flu-Free +2: I'm Back, Bitches!
Man, that sucked. I hadn't been that sick since I got the Chicken Pox when I was 27. And that was no joke. But it's over now, and got some unwanted perspective in the process -- being tired is WAY preferable to being sick. For a while I wasn't sure there was a difference, but now I know. Boy, do I know.
So, here's where we're at. The flu caused highly erratic sleep schedules as you'd expect, but was complimented with a variety of multiple daily naps. Ultimately, I felt fairly rested, if not completely insane from cabin (and standard) fever. Nights weren't particularly kind to me, though, routinely waking up at 3am. Sometimes I fell back to sleep. Usually I'd get up, watch a TV show or movie in the basement, then go back to sleep for a few hours. So it was sustainable.
Sunday and Monday night were the go-back-to-sleep variety, and these were drug-free (no Nyquil, Tylenol, Ambien, or melatonin) so I was optimistic about my chances last night. I guess I got a little too big for my britches, as I woke at 3AM and that was kind of it. Sure I'm tired, but still in the euphoric stage of no longer being sick, so there's that.
In the spirit of calling these experiments, I guess I should enumerate the failures I've collected along the way:
So, what HAS worked?
Not much, so far, unfortunately. As I said, the Ambien had it's moments, but I never saw that as anything but temporary. I think behaviorally, I just need to recognize when it's time to get out of bed (as has been suggested), and do something else for a while. Easy to say, hard to do, especially when you're tired, warm and just want more sleep. But the time during my flu showed that this was a possibility for me.
Next up:
Write far less.
Work on getting the hell up before I lose any opportunity for additional sleep (what happened last night)
Trial the 5mg melatonin time-release tabs.
Hi, everyone. Good to be back!
@ACraigL I do think, if you read back that the ambien was working wonders. It seemed to surprise you when you spoke to your doc that the script was only for an extremely short time and this put you into the halving and quartering dosing (not sure how that works with time release actually).
If one believes there is a chronic problem then unfortunately medication for the long term may be the only answer... or as you have found in your next post.
@fjp999 I know, but I'm not sure I remember the Ambien giving me quality sleep, just impressed it kept me that way. I would prefer not to use it, so if this "segmented" behavior is sustainable, I'd consider it ok.
And I was able to sleep until 7:30AM, after waking up at 2:45, and staying up for an hour.
Day 43 (I think): A pattern emerges
Since Tuesday night, I've gotten up at 3AM twice and last night, 2AM. For the last two, I did manage to get myself out of bed, go to the basement and watch TV. (Started to watch Fringe -- Fringewatching, if you will -- on Netflix).
In both cases I was able to fall back to sleep, usually within 30 minutes, after the show, once I returned to bed, and was able to sleep until my alarm went off. Frankly, I'm not even sure why this works. It doesn't really do anything that force me to lose 60-90 minutes of sleep a night, but maybe not worrying about that is enough.
If this pattern holds, and continues to allow me to get back to sleep, I might be OK. Go to bed at 10, wake at 3, then back at 4:30 until about 6:30 yields roughly 7 hours. It's possible I might claim more without the alarm -- I'll find out this weekend.
Next up:
Continue to learn to accept this as my new life.
Finish season one of Fringe.
@ACraigL Congratulations, you have re-invented segmented sleep, which was the normal human sleep pattern prior to the Industrial Revolution. Your 60-90 minutes of wakefulness is SUPPOSED to be spent doing spiritual or creative work, or committing petty crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
@OldCatLady I get to pick? OK, crime.
@ACraigL Fascinating.
I have been wearing those Eye Strain Relief Glasses recommended here during my night time adventures and they do seem to help me get back to bed faster.
I believe you got a pair (if not I recommend them - crazy cheap)... I use them while watching tv and on the lappy/iPad.
@OldCatLady That wiki article describes my sleep pattern exactly. The break in late evening sleep and the daytime nap. I will be showing it to my doc the next time I have an appt.
I especially found this important:
"A case has been made that maintaining such a sleep pattern may be important in regulating stress"!
Thanks
@fjp999 - I love those glasses, so glad they helped you too. Linking back to the comment in case anyone else is interested.
Day 45ish: Times are 'a Changing
For the last week or so, I've been waking up consistently between 2 and 3AM. I've also been fairly regular in getting back to sleep an hour or so later, which has kept my head above water. Exhaustion-wise, I don't have a waterbed.
Monday morning I woke up at 3:40am. Kinda sleeping in, right? I did my normal 'do something else' routine and then attempted to go back to sleep. Unfortunately, it was 5AM at that point, and things start moving around my house about 20 minutes after that. I was up for the day. Sigh. Surprisingly, I wasn't impossibly tired, and got through the day OK. Maybe that's because I has a longer period of sleep?
Last night was a similar experience, this time waking up at 3:50AM. However, this was different for two key reasons:
I fell back to sleep around 5AM and re-woke at 6:30. Not bad! I feel better rested as a result as well. While I can't keep my kids from attending school, I'm hoping I might be onto something with change #2.
Next up:
Monitor sleep pattern -- see if longer stretches of sleep continue or change (in either direction).
Don't set an alarm. As long as I'm in by 9AM, I'll be good. The extra sleep it may afford will be worth it -- the early worm can wait.
Day 46: That was unexpected
I last wrote that I had experienced longer (abeit 10 minutes at a time) sleep sessions, waking at 3:40 and 3:50 respectively, the last two nights. Both are considerably better than the 2-3am wake-ups that were part of my "normal" pattern.
This morning I woke at 4:30. I was shocked. Truly, I had not slept that "late" in months in a single burst. I has assumed that would be it, but still feeling tired I fought the urge to get out of bed. The last time I looked at the clock, it was 5:10. I absolutely fell back asleep again, and re-woke at 6:30am.
I don't have any specific reason as to why last night was so successful by comparison. No medication, no augments of any kind. The ONLY real change I made was to disable my alarm as I noted in a previous post. Maybe that's making a difference psychologically? In any case, I'm very grateful for the quality of sleep I got last night.
Next up:
Dunno. Keep not setting an alarm? I have a sound machine coming as well to replace the fan I have running.
Day 48: Semi-consistent behavior
With last night as an exception (back to a 3:30 wake followed by a one-hour nap), I woke up everyday this week at 4:30 or after. I didn't always get back to sleep, but sometimes.
Not sure, but it feels like I'm getting a little better. I got the sound machine. This one: http://home.woot.com/offers/lectrofan-fan-white-noise-machine-2
It actually works great and easily replaced the physical fan I was using. I recommend it for anyone that needs while/fan noise to sleep.
Next up
Continue doing what I'm doing. Oh, and test-drive a Tesla Model S tomorrow. Fun!
Day 52: Meh.
My pattern continues and I'm maintaining. Last night was a real bright spot. I went to bed around 10pm and while I did wake up at some point, I went back to sleep, waking at 5am. I was super-happy about it and figured I'd languish in my cocoon a bit longer. Imagine my surprise when I opened my eyes again at 6:10am!
The Tesla was awesome! Can't wait to get mine (Model 3).
Found an interesting article on Melatonin:
http://vitals.lifehacker.com/how-melatonin-helps-you-sleep-1774391631
That is all.
@ACraigL
I'll take your sleep patterns off your hands if they come with a Tesla 3 OK?
@f00l Ha. For better AND worse, they're both staying with me. But thanks for the offer.
Day Today: Putting this to bed (SWIDT?)
It's been a while since I posted to this, and that's largely due to the fact that there has been little change, and I've basically stopped "experimenting".
As it stands,
Last Thurs/Fri was of variety one. Saturday was a #2 (super-zombie) and last night was a #3, but crushed it getting about 2 additional hours of sleep. That felt good. Really good.
As long as the #3 type are limited to once a week or less, I can maintain. At some point I listed what didn't work. Here's some things that I think did help me, thus far.
This has been a very educational and therapeutic thread for me, and I really appreciate the input and support throughout. Things are not exactly where they need to be, but are much more manageable, and that's largely thanks to the suggestions of everyone here.
If things take a major shift I'll post back, but for now, I think this will do it. Pleasant dreams, folks!
@ACraigL So you get a Tesla and do a mic drop. That's ...novel. Sweet dreams!
@OldCatLady Ha. Tesla won't come my way until late 2017/early 2018. But I do dream about getting it sooner.
@ACraigL @Kidsandliz said on Wed, Mar 9th 2016 at 12:21am eastern
Go outside, I am not an outside person, but I went outside did some lite yard work sat on the deck and did nothing but sit. We talked too. I did not sit in the sun because that has a whole new set of problems. It was not hot so not West Nile. Anyway that night I slept comma hard.
For me the so much pressure was put on sleep, watching Fight Club made it easier to sleep. The idea that I could not sleep long enough to perhaps develop an alter ego that would work for me while I built an army that worked to destroy debt of many minimum wage workers seemed like a pretty cool idea, or perhaps it was the whole idea there were worse things than not getting enough sleep. (kind of serious kind of joking) but one night I gave up on trying to get back to sleep after an hour and a half or so of tossing and turning, so I put it on and was ready to sleep soon after.
Self Hypnosis, I tried it in my teens. I do not believe I can by hypnotized but the relaxation techniques and reaching inside and waking up refreshed seem to work, if you have time for a quick 10 minute nap (from the time you sit, set your alarm on the phone, until the time your getting up). The hypnosis techniques do not work for sleeping long term.
One last thing I want to add, getting back to sleep, I do not know why this helps, but it did. I wanted to try to dream about something specific so I concentrated on the thing I wanted to dream about when laying there, and would fall asleep in record time.
Did you ever try the Alteril? Not that it's a cure all..I've had less than 7 hours sleep in the last two nights but my schedule got all wonky. That Alteril helps me fall asleep and because there are no side affects, I can take it if I wake up in the middle of the night. Sounds like you are heading in the right direction though..so happy for you..sweet.
@mehbee Thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying really hard to not take medication if I can help it. But I will definitely keep that in mind if I get to the point where I need to consider it.
@ACraigL I totally understand. I take enough prescriptions that I try to limit what I put in my body. This is pretty much all natural though so I don't feel so bad taking it. I keep a bottle of Lunesta JUST in case but rarely have to take it.
Just found this article. Interesting take.
TL;DR: You need to prepare for sleep all day, not just before bed.
https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/why-stress-was-destroying-my-sleep-until-i-spent-a-weekend-without-clocks-92a906642263#.j6ynwb5kp