I need some help with my Zzzz's
6Hey all. I'm starting to get desperate, and though maybe some folks here might be able to provide some advice.
I'm waking up early. WAY too early. Like 3am early and can't fall back to sleep. It's been getting progressively worse and I'm getting tired of walking around like a zombie (but the brains are delicious).
I've read all the literature and nothing seems to help:
- Make sleep a sanctuary (room is dark, cool and quiet, and only for sleeping)
- I'm exercising (running 3 miles 3-5 times a week)
- Eating responsibly and at least 2 hours before bed
- Going to be early, usually by 10pm
- Some say it's an age thing, but I'm not willing to give up based on that.
Yes, stuff is on my mind. I'm a parent and have a job. I'm not special in that way. I've heard about supplements like melatonin, but I'm a little concerned about moving to medications.
So, any advice for a very tired mehmber?
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do you watch tv/smartphone/tablet before you go to sleep? they say to turn it off and not look at any electronic screens for at least 30 minutes before going to bed. something about the blue light the screens give off. not sure i buy it, but it might be worth a shot.
there's also meditation. doesn't have to be anything fancy. just lie down and do some deep breathing exercises to calm your noggin.
how about a glass of red wine a couple hours before bed to relax you?
if that doesn't work i've got an EXCITING neuroscience textbook that will get you to sleep.
@carl669 To be clear, GETTING to sleep is not an issue. At all. STAYING asleep is the issue. And yes, I do avoid screens before bed.
Haven't tried the red wine thing, but I could see that going badly (I like red wine a lot).
@ACraigL this is what happens when i read things before i have my morning coffee.
so, when you wake up, do you feel any particular way? anxious? upset? or is it more of a 'why the hell am i awake?" feeling?
what part of the country do you live in? decreased exposure to sunlight can lead to lower levels of melatonin production. so, if you live in a sunny area, maybe just get getting more sunlight might help. if you're somewhere like me (greater Seattle area), maybe the melatonin supplement is a good thing to try then.
(note: i'm not a doctor.)
@carl669 nightcaps aren't good for sleep. the other suggestions are fine tho.
@carl669 Generally I feel anxious when I wake, but mostly, and I do see the irony, that is because I'm worried about falling back to sleep. It's a bad cycle I know. I also tend to think about all the things I need to do later that day/week which doesn't help.
I've tried simple meditation, but even when it starts to work, I become aware I'm drifting off and snap back awake.
Oh, and I'm on the east coast. AND I've stopped waking up at midnight to check meh in hopes that uninterrupted sleep will help me. It's doesn't.
@ACraigL here is a trick I found to be helpful when I wake up with anxiety or thinking about all the things I have to do: I take each task and put it on a "list" (I often have a couple mental lists) & include when I will address the issue. Compartmentalizing the stressors and identifying when l will address them takes a load off my brain, reduces my anxiety and usually within a few minutes, I can get back to sleep.
I hope you find something that helps, lack of sleep and waking up in the middle of the night stressed out sucks.
You don't state your age. I believe you're male, but recognize I could be wrong on this. There are certain phases in life where sleep may become difficult. They're more pronounced in women than men, and the age ranges are a bit different, but they still happen.
Melatonin works for some people. It's not a bad thing to try; more like taking a vitamin than (for example) a random opiate. Here's the WebMD page on the side effects:
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-940-melatonin.aspx?activeingredientid=940&activeingredientname=melatonin
Your best solution is to break the cycle by not fighting it. If you wake up in the middle of the night, get up, read a book, or do something else that's not physically demanding (you don't want to wind your brain up too much). The point of this is to take your mind off the battle of sleeping.
The more you stress over this, the more likely that it will get worse. You might also try meditation (as was suggested). Couldn't hurt, right?
@Shrdlu Male, yes. I'm 45. But aside from the raccoon eyes, I don't look it. ;)
Thanks for the link.
@Shrdlu @ACraigL When I really want a good night's sleep I do take melatonin, but I take it in a drink. I got a case of this stuff from Woot one time I think, or maybe it was a local store... But it's http://www.drinkneuro.com/the-drinks/sleep/ Neuro Sleep.... Now the Mango gets me to sleep well... the Tangerine... well that's another story... My head thinks ORANGE and thinks it is AM... but it's a sleep drink... so it really screws with my sleep and I get strange dreams... (Like the Meh Forums are actually a real location we go to and we all hang out as if we are here
and in our underwear... some of us with extra appendages (like tentacles...) all kinds of weird dreams... BUT... )isn't that half the fun?
@sohmageek
@cinoclav As an aside, when I saw this movie when it came out I was absolutely smitten with Monique (played by Diane Franklin). I recently looked her up and, as with all nostalgia, that was best left as a fond memory.
@ACraigL Funny, she never did anything for me. It was probably those eyebrows. Beth (Amanda Wyss) wasn't even that cute in the movie, but take a look at her these days. She's aged quite well.
@cinoclav I loved her work in Bloodfist IV: Die Trying.
Seriously though, you're right, and she's stayed pretty consistently employed through the years, according to her IMDB.
Do you snore?
@Bingo I don't snore, and typically am a side or stomach sleeper.
Maybe try listening to an audiobook with your eyes closed? Something mellow.
so it's specifically a staying asleep issue rather than a falling asleep issue?
edit: ok so yes, it is. what's your caffeine intake like, and specifically at what times?
@Lotsofgoats Yes, I fall asleep rather easily, but wake up far too early. I drink 2-3 8oz. cups a day, usually not after 10am or so.
@ACraigL you're probably fine with that, then. what about alcohol?
@Lotsofgoats Generally just weekends. Even then I usually stop at 3 beers. Nothing heavier than wine or beer for me.
I'm a girl, so hormones are at play with my sleep disturbance & seasonal depression issues. I also sleep with a man who rolls over like a sperm whale breaching the surface.
I've done four things, make that five things, that have helped me lengthen out my sleep cycles. I had fallen into a pattern of little naps throughout the night rather than sleeping for long stretches. Baby, lemme tell you what a royal C it was making me!
I'm using a lightbox between 30 & 45 minutes in the morning, depending on my morning.
Bumped up my vigorous exercising in the morning.
No Caffeine after 2 in the afternoon (in fact, I try to cut back liquids towards the end of the day).
2mL of liquid melatonin about an hour before bed with usually a few ounces of protein.
Very cool dark room with only a ultra low watt nightlight in the bathroom because my husband lifts the seat and I forget to check while I'm trying to pee without really waking up.
Over the last several weeks I have seen a slow improvement in my sleep duration. My average is 2.5 hours between sleep cycles which is an improvement of every 90 minutes. There have been a few nights I've gone a whole 4 hours straight-- it was GLORIOUS!
I've noticed my heaviest, deepest, most restful sleep happens after 3-4 o'clock.
I wake up almost every morning between 3 and 4 AM. It's not a big problem because I don't stress over it. I just get up and go get a drink of water, maybe catch a breath of fresh air on the back porch, then go back to bed. I can usually fall back asleep. A couple of things that could help, aside from not getting stressed out over waking up:
1. Tart cherry juice. http://www.prevention.com/health/sleep-energy/tart-cherry-juice-increases-sleep-time
2. Get enough vitamin D, but take any supplements first thing in the morning, as D disrupts melatonin production.
https://www.bulletproofexec.com/bulletproof-your-sleep-with-vitamin-d/
I have the same problem. I fall asleep almost instantly when I go to bed, but wake up early (3-4AM) and can't get back to sleep. I have found that melatonin helps. GNC 3mg tablets work best for me. All brands are not the same - I tried 2 or 3 different ones before I settled on the GNC.
Sometimes even the melatonin doesn't do it, so I experimented and found that 1/2 a 3mg melatonin plus 1/2 a store brand 25mg benadryl tab makes me sleep straight through. But I only use that combo (similar to one of the commercial sleep aids) after I've had a couple of especially bad nights in a row.
Take 3 or 4 calmagzinc tablets before you go to bed.
If all else fails, this works for the von zipper
Are you cold when you wake up? I will usually wake up when I'm too cold, and boy am I cranky! I took ambien for years, and have been off of it for about three years. I would totally avoid taking it as it really affected my attitude during the day. I do take the occasional melatonin. The drink before bed works for me, as well as my nighttime routine of brushing teeth, etc.. I also wear a sleep mask, the darkness is awesome! I think it really helps in keeping me asleep.
Not usually cold, no. Darkness isn't really a problem either given I'm waking up before the sun comes out. I'm coming to the conclusion I should try Vitamin D and melatonin.
Since I'm headed to vacation next week, where I'll be getting plenty of sun, I'll hold off and see if that resets my sleep schedule a bit.
Thanks for all the advice, everyone. Hopefully something in here will make a difference for me.
@ACraigL Sleep with your cell phone far away from the bedroom - so far your subconscious brain will know you can't possibly hear it if it rings. Turn it off if possible. That might make a difference.
A fifth of good Scotch works wonders for me.
Melatonin was generally a good one for me. If you're going to try it - start LOW dose. It is a hormone supplement. When I was really sleep deprived and took it, I knocked me OUT for 12+ hours and I was groggy the next day. After I caught up on my sleep, I didn't have that issue - but be sure to take it on a night when you don't have to be up early or on a rigid schedule, so you don't run into that issue.
Other things that may be at play - sleep apnea is possible, a bit of a PITA to treat though, so maybe save that for later. The rest has been addressed by others here.
I hope you find what works for you and get some sleep. Zombie mode sucks.
I used to have bouts of insomnia like this a while back. My advice would be to first play close attention to what your diet is on the nights this happens. Might be a type of food that's triggering it. Also as others have suggested stay away from alcohol, typically it messes with your sleep. Sure its a downer and it'll help you fall asleep, but as soon as it wears off you can easily wake up, needing to pee or dehydrated needing to drink water, which will wake you up and make it harder to fall back asleep.
I've tried most (if not all) sleep pills and aids. Most either knocked me out and I woke up feeling drugged, drowsy and worse off, or they really didn't work that well.
What I've found works the best is Marijuana. I'm not talking about getting really high and going to bed, but one or two small hits, or preferably if you have a friend that can make it for you, (or you can make it yourself) is THC butter. Eat a little bit about 30 mins before bed, when you go to sleep its a milder body buzz instead of just in your head. It really helps you relax and sleep the whole night.
my sleep pattern was disturbed in recent years by 1) working with korea late @ night 2) staying up to try to get a fuku. i too, now wake up around 3am. if i drink a lot, i don't wake up but gain weight and feel bad in the morning. so i'd suggest get up at 3am and read a book for 15 minutes and go back to bed, or go out for a walk. also, if you can take naps in the daytime, that works wonders. oh yea, dis-claimer, i'm no dr. either. i did hear that some of the fit bits (not the 3+ Snap I bought from Meh.) monitor your sleep patterns and make suggestions, maybe that'd be a good Christmas present, or self-gift if you're not into Christmas ;)
sleep studies are often covered by insurance, so if you've got it then there's no reason to deny yourself a resource like that.
@Lotsofgoats Ours covers it... with a hefty co-pay. So maybe check your coverage, then get a sleep study!
I'm a couple of weeks into a sleep study. Still ambivalent as to whether it's going to work, although I have four friends that wouldn't spend the night anywhere without the CPAP. I'd wake up every two hours to pee and then towards morning got hit with restless legs. I will say the restless leg problem has stopped. It sure wouldn't hurt to check out a sleep study, have your doctor recommend one. If it's not sleep apnea, maybe it's something the doctor could recognize.
I think for many people, healthy and not-healthy sleep patterns can be learned and unlearned, tho have no advice on how to do this.
My thoughts:
Have you started new meds, or changed doses, or changed from one generic to another? Same q about over-the-counter stuff.
Changed diet? Seen other altered responses such as mood changes, new allergic reactions, new emotional patterns, new activities, challenges, other stressors or other evidence of stress? (Depression, including mild or masked depression is notorious for being associated w your symptoms.)
Have you moved, changed rooms, changed timing, changed your patterns of awake activities, do you have new worries on your mind? Life changes such as new jobs, people, relationships, new money or performance worries, or proxy worrying for other stressed people in your life?
If you can, discuss all this w a physician, pref an internist, sleep specialist, neurologist, psychiatrist, in some order. Doctors want to treat according to the gold standards of their specialities, so start w your primary care provider or a sleep specialist.
Have yourself evaluated for metabolic and chronic conditions, esp diabetes, pre-diabetes, and similar. Also sleep apnea. You need to know, and anything like that can play a role. You can often find out about many possibilities by wearing a fingertip pulse-ox at home. Sleep clinic if necessary. (More to follow)
@f00l
Practical stuff:
Dark room, away from phone, same time each night, avoid stress or heavy food of caffiene near bedtime, etc. Try to avoid sleeping in a room that has a bad emotional charge (ie be on good terms with people in the bedroom if possible.
A v small, light snack before bedtime might help. Just something v small that wont make you feel full, not too surgery. Herbal teas (experiment.). Perhaps v light stretching, just s little. Nothing to raise pulse.
Benedryl will work, but us likely to leave you woozy in am. Most benedryl is sold in time-release capsule, ehich mskes it less effective causing sleep, and causes more am hangover. So try to find non time release benedryl, or open a capsule and grind the stuff into powder before taking. Use a tiny amount. You can take more later if needed. I regard benedryl as a "big gun" and use it ehen desperate, mebbe twice a year.
My go to is melatonin from walmart. Usually 1-4 of them work. On a bad night i will keep taking say 4 over half hour. Eventually they will work, and if you start low-dose and ramp up cautiously, hangover prob minimal. Way less than benedryl or sleeping meds. Melatonin (for me) works better sometimes w 1 ibuprofen, taken 1 time. Dunno why, but helps. I only add ibuprofen if 1st dose of melatonin doesnt work.
Prescription sleeping pills - avoid if possible. You can habituate, or have hangovers, or a re-bound which means next nite will be worse.
Something that helps me - various smartphone "binaural brainwave" apps designed for sleep. Placebo or truly effective? I have no idea, but i like them. I like something called i think "ambi-science" which is for both ios and android, but there are plenty others. Some versions free.
Used to put the phone on a charger under pillow and run cheap earbuds. Then i found on amazon/ebay various headbands w flat earbud speakers right over your ears. Then i found black cushiony memory foam sleep masks with built in flat earbud things - these dont fall out so i like.
Every time i am newly dealing w a biggish prob or making a life change i deal w this. I just do enuf melatonin and the other fixes that i get to sleep ok most nights even after waking up.
(More)
@f00l
I would suspect metabolic and other chronic disorders, not to mention sleep apnea, can play a huge role. So i hope you find out about that. Not to mention new meds.
But the biggest obvious possibility apart from the above is a sleep prob that looks like depression, or depression that looks like a sleep disorder, or a situation that is more clearly depression of some sort. The pattern you describe - going to sleep, then waking up and cant go back to sleep - is classically associated w depression. And perhaps you can look at yourself and say "yeah i'm depressed" . Or perhaps not - in which case do you have a sleep disorder, or do you have masked or moderate depression? Well who knows? Perhaps psychiatrists can tell, or brain scans, or whatever, but these diagnoses are often far from exact.
The good news is that standard depression treatments such as anti-depressants, st johns wort and other herbs associated w "positive affect", other depression remedies such as walking, stress reduction, cognitive therapy, psychotherapy, etc etc can all help big-time regardless if what is actually a medically correct diagnosis. (Ie they almost always work if you have a depression related prob. And they also almost always work if you have early-am awakening sleep disorder that otherwise doesnt look like depression (assuming you have eliminated sleep apnea and other medical causes.))
If you dont have medical or philosophical reasons not to take antidepressants, you might try that and find yourself fixed in a short time -for some people a few weeks, others a few days or even 1 or 2 days to get back to normal sleep. Sleep is often the first thing to improve. Response is very individual. The ssri category and also wellbutrin or effexor can work very well for restoring normal sleep patterns, and many of them are on Walmart's $4 drug list. They are also usually temporary - you stay on them for a while after things (sleep and whatever else) get better, then you taper, then you're done.
If you dont have health insurance, your might have a county health system to try, or a nearby medical school, or your local MHMR (Mental Health Mental Retardation) facility. Also the local United Way First Call for Help will have a list of local charities and organizations which either provide services or refer to subsidized services. Catholic Charities and your local Jewish Family Services (among others) do this and dont care what religion you are or arent. They will never ask. (Aetheists and everyone else welcome.)
So many of us go thru this one time or another - hope something in this thread works.
@f00l
I think someone mentioned a light box.
These help some people with SAD or something that has some SAD symptoms without clearly being SAD. (SAD is Seasonal Affective Disorder.).
I've seen them on Amazon and Ebay. I spoze handy people can build one for next to nothing. I think they need to be full-spectrum. Which can create other probs (think tanning bed, tho less dangerous) so important to follow instructions and talk to physician and if DIY find a template from someone who understands the risks and designs for safe home use.
Or move to Florida/Hawaii ;)
@f00l PostPostPostPostPostScript....
I have several friends who go to sleep every night w an audiobook. Mp3 player or phone on charger under pillow, cheapie earbuds (why break wires on nice ones?), or the headband-earbuds or sleepmask-earbuds i mentioned.
Not a lot of volume. Choice of book is important. Something you're very fond of, and have read or listened to so many times you almost know it by heart. A familiar pleasure. One friend uses Harry Potter. Another, Walden. Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. The New Testament. Jane Austen. The Wizard of Oz books. Mark Twain. Something so familiar that losing your place is meaningless. Something that is soothing and carries little literary tension for you: not the next Stephen King or Jack Reacher.
You can set most players to stop after a certain interval like 90 min if you wish.
@ACraigL Or, just read this long ass post and drift off to sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeee zzzzzzzzzzzz
@f00l Thanks for taking the time to put all this down. Some solid things here I may try. I've read that this behavior could be a sign of depression. I don't think that's the case here, but it's possible, I guess.
I like the idea of audiobooks -- this was mentioned a few times in the thread -- and I am considering melatonin when I return from vacation at the end of the year.
@Pavlov
Indeed!
Way TMI, that's what i get for posting in the middle of the night. Pls forgive ;)
@ACraigL
Fwiw, ssri type antisdepressants can quickly fix sleep even if there are no depression symptoms. Assuming no medical or philosophical reasons to avoid, the real trick is to match the person and the choice of which one. Side effects minimal.
They only seem to take a long time to work (months) when there is severe depression.
My older bro (anesthesiologist) says he suspects the disordered biological brain state of mood disorders is similar to that of chronic early wakening in many people. Not his area tho.
@f00l Nothing to forgive you for . . . Yes, it is a long post but full of a lot of good info - I was only poking fun.
I've generally been lucky regarding falling and staying asleep but really sympathize with your situation since it has happened to me on rare occasions.
Something that I do most times as I fall asleep is to work thru in my head the design of a product or project I have planned. This probably works for me because I enjoy that process. If I awake, I restart that process. Perhaps it is my "counting sheep" relaxation (meditation?) process.
Perhaps there is a corresponding thought process that would work similarly for you.
Another thought - how is your general mood? I've heard folks having success with HTP-5, not only for mood, but also for sleeping.
@RedOak I've tried similar exercises, and I enjoy that process as well. Unfortunately, I get excited to start (particularly when it's a big work project or a new design) and it has the opposite of the intended effect.
I'm not familiar with HTP-5 but will look into it. In general my mood is good, except for the sleep deprivation which makes me cranky.
@RedOak I'm just the opposite. If I start thinking about a project at night, I stay awake working out all the details. My most effective approach is to empty my mind and bore myself into sleep.
@macromeh
@ACraigL @macromeh I should have been more specific about the "project" scenario. The scenario makes all the difference. I am currently semi-retired and doing a wide range of things. Things that are creative and things that "float my boat", some of which bring in money.
When I was in the soul-sucking corporate world I would never have used this technique with an "office" project. This method is a form of escape, I suppose.
The "project" must be something that "floats your boat". Something enjoyable. And since I find that design/development process very enjoyable, it can in theory be without end (like sheep counting!). I never remember exactly where I leave off on that project. But that isn't the point. As a bonus it does yield creative new avenues for me.
Perhaps an example scenario would help... we have recreational wooded, hilly acreage about four hours north of us, also near big (Great) lakes. It is completely off the grid and we currently camp there. But we want to evolve it into a small off-the-grid set of cottages for our family to enjoy. The evolution of those raw-to-nicer cabins is "the project." Pure enjoyment. And relaxation. The planning and the ultimate implementation.
Perhaps it is a form of meditation where instead of emptying all thoughts, you are filling your brain with only pleasant, enjoyable thoughts.
Haven't found a go-to-sleep or night-wake-up where an escape like this did not work for me.
I forgot to mention in my earlier post, I'm a chef and as such my ears are constantly bombarded with noise while I work, not sure how noisy it is at your work place, but over the years I've gotten used to having a constant noise while I sleep. I usually have a small fan on my night stand I use for the noise. My wife and kids have gotten used to this noise and we had to upgrade. Now we use a white noise app on a tablet. We have the sounds of ocean waves hitting the beach. I set it up in the center of our house and have it cranked each night. It covers all the bedrooms with just enough noise. Helps everyone fall asleep and stay asleep (no random noises to wake you up). Since its on the tablet it makes it easy to take with us when we travel and need the noise in a hotel room to sleep.
Thanks again all for the helpful suggestions. As a small update I just got back from a week in St. Thomas. Guess what? I slept like a rock.
So, if I change everything about my current life (where I sleep, diet, activity level, exposure to sun, drinking habits, etc) I'm in good shape. The only constant was my family, so I guess I have to keep them.
The good news is that I CAN sleep. The bad news is I now have to figure out why I haven't been doing so at home. My first assumption is work-stress as I completely disconnected while away. Not sure what I can do there, but at least I have more hope now that I've gotten some quality rest.