I sincerely hope that what I expect to happen to the country under Trump doesn’t occur. I hope we are all wrong and he does good things for the country. I am sceptical but would be happy to be wrong.
@CaptAmehrican I’d also be happy to be wrong unfortunately I suspect a lot of us who did not vote for the dump are going to be collateral damage with actions that, unfortunately, will not affect those who are now making the rules.
@Kidsandliz I think his base supporters will do much worse. I know people that hate him but voted for him because they are “republican”, they will do the best under Trump.
@jbartus Not the same time or place, but Walter Mondale had people’s respect too.
I’m afraid The Donald would have roughed up BS just like he did the other Republican candidates during the primary debates…
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@jbartus You forgot to add Sanders was a man of his word and he had a plan that was not a platitude. I tried going to my boss and asking for $1000 to “make work great again”, he wanted a plan.
@caffeine_dude I didn’t add it because I don’t agree. Sanders is no dummy, he knows that implementing many of the things he talked about would have required support on a level he couldn’t even count on from his own party never mind across the aisle. I respect him immensely for standing by his principles on issues rather than standing wherever the political winds blow him but at the end of the day he’s still a politician and there’s still a game that must be played if you want to get elected.
Sanders could not have been elected. Even if every idea he offered were made of solid gold.
Everyone who’s spent years in a red state knows that. Successfully label someone “socialist” or “former socialist” and that’s all the opposition needs. The election will not be about ideas or solutions, it will be about labeling and lies and distractions.
Sanders never faced serious negative campaigning. His internal polling was never subjected to serious independent scrutiny re methodology from the press and academia at large. The campaign would not have been pretty, and he could not have gotten the middle-America voters he needed to hear him out first before deciding. They don’t respond that way … yet.
No. Sanders would’ve been guaranteed the win. I mean, that argument literally falls apart at the slightest scrutiny. Just think about how every poll had him destroying Trump. You want to know why? Because those red states were opting for him over Trump. Which is why HRC lost, because without Sanders they defaulted back to Trump.
But hey, who am I to ruin what makes you sleep at night.
@f00l Let me put it in a way you might understand: Saying red states wouldn’t vote for Sanders because he’s socialist is like saying they wouldn’t vote for Trump because he’s deplorable. They didn’t vote for Trump because he was a bigot, they voted from him despite the fact. They don’t give a fuck as long as it’s not more of the same. That was literally it. The candidate could’ve been a cow bell and they would’ve choose it over any corporate politician, e.g. HRC.
Ok, you don’t live in my red state anyway. Yeah they wanted change. Not socialist change. Not even if it were logical. they would have voted for a dozen Hillarys before they would vote for Sanders
Think what you like. On this you’re wrong. I live in a region where the politicis are not to my taste, and I know them well. I know exactly why people here went for Trump. You are right about that, it was in spite of his many flaws, not because of them.
But by local standards, Sanders has a much bigger flaw. He can be painted with the word “socialist”. The minute they hear that their ears close. And after that they are inclined to believe everything Fox or some conservative site says about it.
Maybe in 4-8-12 years. Not yet.
The candidate could’ve been a cow bell and they would’ve choose it over any corporate politician, e.g. HRC.
If you believe that, either your info is from a tiny and unrepresentative pocket of the red areas, or you just flat out don’t understand them.
Or else you beoeve in polls that no academic polling expert took seriously. Sorry. I saw those pills too. So did every other polling expert. Even those experts who favored Sanders personally discounted those polls.
@f00l You argued against a reasonable x therefore y with anecdotal “i just know the lay of the land”. I dunno what you expected me to say. Especially when it’s pretty much solidified that Trump was essentially a protest vote. It’s not a minute or “gut feeling”, it’s just as the facts are presented. Trump won the populist vote, HRC handed him the victory and Sanders would’ve simply won. There’s a reason why Trump backed out on arguing with Sanders.
If you can’t see the parallels between “Trump won’t win because he’s a bigot” and “Sanders won’t win because he’s a socialist” then I don’t know what to tell you other than you probably voted for HRC.
@DrunkCat My opinion is that The Donald would have wiped the Electoral College floor with Bernie Sanders and won the popular vote by a large margin, too. BS isn’t nearly tough enough to withstand the hate that Drumpfins would have spewed on him.
No more delusional than your opinion.
@compunaut The problem with that opinion is the same problem with the opinion that water is dry. I’ve never once seen a single Trump support concede any good HRC has done. I’ve seen them not only concede points to Sanders but actually defend him.
@compunaut I have to disagree. As someone who voted against HRC I most certainly assure you that I would have lined up to vote for Bernie Sanders and many people I know would have as well. The DNC lost many supporters from my generation that I know to the Stein and Johnson campaigns and still more who decided to boycott the election because of the whole Bernie fiasco. I would have gladly voted for him over Trump.
@jbartus
Your take re Trump, Sanders, HRC, and other candidates is is prob pretty common on the coasts and in heavy tech or college/university areas. I doubt it’s nearly so common in flyover areas unless you are in a tech or college oasis.
People here seem to assume that self-labeling as “conservative” or “extreme conservative” implies automatic personal strength, righteousness, and moral virtue, even if such a person does not actually want the policies conservatives favor.
If you drive past polling places, every sign for a candidate - Republican, Democrat, or a non-party or alt party candidate for any office - is going to have the word “conservative” on the sign. Some Democrats’ central campaign message is that they are actually more conservative than their Republican opponent.
There are a few Congressional and local districts that deviate from this norm (carefully gerrymandered by the state legislature to minimize impact).
There are a few brave “death-wish candidates” who don’t enthusiastically march behind the “conservative” label and wind up losing by insane and nearly laughable margins.
In Nov-Dec 2012, in some counties, journalists trying to do political interviews could not find a single person who, even when promised anonymity, would admit to having voted for Obama.
@jbartus Bernie is the reason my husband walked away from the Republican party after 41 years.
My husband is really not religious (his dad was religious, his mother was not and it caused some major problems) and all of the Christian candidates made him really, really nervous. Then there was Trump and my husband has been self-employed since his teens (he’s 60 now). Small construction company and back in the 80s they did work for a big, huge company. Signed contract.
When the job was completed and the client was happy with the work, they said “okay, this is what we’re going to pay you”. Two hundred thousand LESS than the contract.
Lawyers were involved. The big company told the little company "hey, we have lawyers on staff; you don’t. You can take us to court and you’ll win.
But can you afford to be tied up in court for years? Because that’s what will happen."
Took what they offered. But it left a very bitter taste in his mouth. And when all of Trump’s shady dealings came out, sure, they were legal, but they were shady all the same, well, suffice it to say, Trump has never been considered a “good businessman” in this household. Because he hurt the small guy. And then the icing on the cake came out with all of his personality flaws. So, #NeverTrump.
Anyway, Sanders is the first time in our lives we’ve donated to any candidate. We voted for him in the primaries. We were really bummed when he didn’t win. We voted for Hillary because “NeverTrump”. He wasn’t a good guy for Joe Citizen as a business man, he wouldn’t be a good guy for Joe Citizen as president.
What leads anyone to believe that a new President and Congress can do any more damage than Previous Presidents and Congresses have done?
They’re just politicians all beholden only to their own particular donors and special interests. That hasn’t changed, unless you are one of the privileged few special interests. In that case, never fear. Everyone gets their chance to bitch eventually.
@2many2no except, per my mandate as Positivity Goat for January 2016 you must also express appreciation for the fact that at least some fraction of the population has the good sense not to go all melodramatic.
@jbartus I think it is very positive that most of us understand the importance of of what is going on today, and more significantly, we get the chance to do it all over again in a few short years. The times and places where that has ever occurred are far too few.
@2many2no@jbartus Trump administration has already started some troubling things with long-term consequences.
Putting climate change deniers in charge of environmental regulations could have lasting effects.
If he successfully repeals obamacare poor folk and people with pre-existing conditions go back to not being able to get insurance, and not everyone is great at skirting hospital bills (which passes a higher cost back to everyone else anyway).
Supreme court…
Pence is also a proponent of conversion therapy. Shocking that someone with beliefs like that could make it into the white house. I’m guessing (hoping) that the rest of the administration will hold him back on that one, but it’s still a valid reason for many people to be concerned.
@Pantheist I neither apologize for nor defend anything any of these people do. I’m just pointing out that they’re all politicians and it’s likely nothing good will come from that.
The nearly miraculous thing is the peaceful transition of power. That doesn’t mean I support a particular person. Actually I hope the structure and traditions of our government are strong enough to prevent them from doing too much damage.
Historically that has usually been the case. Whenever one person or group starts to run amok, Washington gridlock tends to rein them in.
@Pantheist both parties install their own version extremists on the issues you’ve mentioned. The end result of this kind of transition is that it puts us on course in general towards a middle ground. Both parties suck but at least by having a changing of the guard every couple of terms we get to avoid having either one run riot over everything.
And seriously, whatever Pence wants to think is his business, homosexuality has become accepted by society at large, where is he going to get the congressional support to do anything meaningful? Progress on issues important to the LGBTQ community might slow down for the next four-to-eight years but it’s hardly like they’re going to be able to begin setting up concentration camps or something, the freaking out over this is really out of hand.
@OldCatLady yeah, he definitely has to do a better job of vetting his speech writers. I thought after the RNC convention snafu that lesson would have been learned. Then again, I should have considered who we’re dealing with. As a [insert your own adjective here] man once said, 'fool me once, shame on…shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again."
@jbartus The problem with that is that he made a YUUUGE deal about how he was writing his own inauguration speech. The twitter photo he posted showed him with a closed Sharpie and a blank pad of paper.
@jbartus Disagree. That’s equivalent to saying it’s practically impossible to make any original music, or movies, or literature.
There is plenty of cliche, hackneyed attempts at producing music, movies, or literature (or speeches) - but not because quality is practically impossible. Sometimes there’s laziness, or ineptitude, or lack of inspiration (or all three). Quality is hard; genius is rare.
But not practically impossible.
@compunaut I am referring specifically to the cliché generic inspirational speech segments called out in the images in question. They are literally designed to pander to people who already hate Trump enough to look for things to pick on without considering reason. They were generic sentiments that if you looked you’d probably find expressed in similar wording in countless political speeches over the decades.
@compunaut@OldCatLady Also of note is that based on a cursory investigation from my phone the Bee Movie one is fabricated from whole cloth. I’ll review the script from my PC when time allows but the phrase “we are one colony” doesn’t appear according to my phone’s find function. Similarly no direct evidence of any such statement in Avatar. I’m around 85% certain the entire thing is fabricated.
@OldCatLady oh noes what? You spread clickbait nonsense from the internet without taking the time and effort to verify the details before sharing it? Yeah, that is pretty bad.
I’m not trying to be a dick but we have a serious problem in this country of lazy citizenry who are willing to accept anything that is said practically anywhere so long as what is said aligns with their personal beliefs about an issue. We live in the age of information, the internet is a limitless resource at your fingertips, Google is your friend, use it! SMH
@OldCatLady Fake news is fake even when it is about Trump. Snopes says those are Trumps words, but the other lines cannot be found in the script for Avatar. There are plenty of things not to like about DT, but this is not one.
@jbartus I guarantee you…Trump could have said and done everything they say he did and more and if he had a “D” beside his name, we’d be hearing pin drops. Those women yelling about him were silent on Bill. All they care about is the letter following their name. Period.
@jbartus Yeah but it is still plagiarism. Turnitin.com would flag it at 100%. The least his speech writers could do is add “X” said or at least use Trump’s best words instead of the original, since after all he has the best words. Sigh.
@lseeber That is a rather overly broad generalization. R or D to me doesn’t matter. I care about his lies, his plagiarism, his attacks on others that in other contexts would get him labeled in derogatory ways, his inability to keep his trap shut, behave in a presidential way and instead engages in twitter wars. I worry about his lack of ethics he has shown in the business world - refusing to pay contractors, filing zillions of lawsuits… I could go on but I won’t.
@lseeber What should women have been up in arms about with Clinton? That he cheated on his wife with a younger woman? Disgusting, but not relevant to his presidency. In looking at him as an elected official I don’t care about his dishonoring his marriage any more than I do Trump’s similar behaviors. Those are family matters. What I care about is political platforms and policies that threaten me, my friends and family.
@Kidsandliz what is plagiarism? To plagiarize requires that the accusations be valid in the first place, this was all fabricated out of whole cloth. There’s also some point where there are only so many ways to phrase a given idea, at some point it becomes impossible not to plagiarize according to turnitin.com when using very generic patriotic speech. Sure if these were legitimate the close phrasing across multiple sentences is interesting, but they’re not.
@lseeber please don’t try to lump me in with you, I don’t think we agree on most things and this is one of them.
@jbartus Plagiarism is borrowing words without proper documentation either copy/paste style or re-writing the idea and claiming it as your own thought. If you liked it enough to borrow it, you need to document where you borrowed it from. The examples posted to this board in this thread appear to be basically word for word.
@Kidsandliz I think what MrMark is saying is that those quotes were never in either of the movies. They weren’t plagiarized because they weren’t there to begin with…
@OldCatLady it has been brought to my attention by a third party that I may have misunderstood your intent with the cat image. I took it as a dismissive “whatever” brush off kind of post and my responses were colored accordingly. An alternative explanation where your response was meant as a light-hearted acknowledgement of the error was suggested by said third party and if that was the case then I apologize for my misinterpretation and any ensuing hostility or insult perceived or otherwise. I hope we can agree that communication on the internet is a poor substitute for face to face conversation as text leaves much open for interpretation.
Obviously we come from different places politically and are likely prone to clash when topics of such a nature come up but I am not in the habit of holding people’s political convictions and or positions against them on an interpersonal level. In general I find your company quite pleasant and enjoy having you around. It is my hope that we can move past this unpleasant topic and let our future interactions not be colored by our political disagreements. After all, who else am I going to tease about wearing socks with thong sandals?
I can’t decide if an image would be out of place here or not but I am going to go for broke and post a cat pic anyhow:
@jbartus I don’t know that I have ever read such an alexithymic comment. Emotionally healthy people don’t talk (or write) that way. They simply don’t. I seldom post here but I do read often and I am compelled to write to say that having read your comments in this thread and in others lately that I have developed a true sense of spiritual sorrow for you. In reading many of your writings I have come to be fond of you, but I must admit that sometimes it takes effort sorting through the things you say as you occasionally exhibit a great deal of dysfunction when there is emotion in your words. I hope that one day you are able to sort through things and that you are able to find a way to understand your emotional self and consequently relate to others on a much more human level. Others here have said similar, very recently in fact. Some have name called you. Others have tired being less direct and they have hinted that you seem to have difficulty with feelings. Your detachment mirrors that which I have observed in many gifted people that have suffered an intense trauma. There is no question that your are quite intelligent just as there is no question that you exhibit many times great difficulty with interpersonal relating. There is pain in your writing that comes through often. I’m sorry you are suffering. I truly hope you are able to one day find peace.
I don’t know you, unless you post here under another uid.
And I can’t pretend to know what motivated your post. Perhaps you did it with the best of motives.
But your post bothered me and I re-read it a few times. And then it bothered me more, for many many reasons.
It would be ok if we didn’t play amateur armchair psychologist with each other; and we didn’t throw “diagnoses” either of disorders and symptoms, or of “another’s pain” when the person “diagnosed” has not mentioned being in pain.
If you know your way around those psychological terms a bit, then you already know why doing “armchair psychologist” in an emotional situation can be a dark path.
I don’t want a contentious, and, to some, hurtful thread to get worse.
@Kidsandliz
Is there any way you could move to a county/state that has reasonable costs of living, and also half-decent public healthcare options for people who have very low incomes?
I don’t even know what counties/states might qualify on both counts. But it seems to me that surely other universities elsewhere would be willing to hire an MBA/PhD at slave wages, just like they do in MS.
I keep wondering, if you found another low-cost housing area, would it be worse than where you are?
@Kidsandliz Maine has terrible rules for medicaid, but we do have something called “MaineCare” so us poor folk can get “medically necessary” treatment for free. I’m not sure where they draw the line for what’s necessary and not everything is covered, but I’d imagine cancer treatment falls into that category. Might be worth looking into- if you don’t want to live this far north, there are probably other states with similar programs.
@Pantheist@f00l I am on the waiting list for HUD housing in several states that do have expanded medicaid… of course if the asshat is dismantling everything anyway then moving, with the expense involved with that, will not be worth it. In higher ed if you are over about 45 you are over the hill anyway unless you are a full or associate professor with a very good publication record. I changed careers midlife and “won’t make full” (which is why many schools prefer to hire assistant professors in their 30’s - yes illegal but very hard to prove since all hiring is done behind closed doors by a committee that is not required to make anything pubic). I have a gap that any way I could honestly talk about it will result in more reasons not to hire me - cancer is still viewed as don’t hire them (heck this is why I was dumped from my old job to begin with “too expensive for their insurance” and while I finally won and got a small settlement (this state is stacked against the employee and is an “at will” state) that only paid down bills, didn’t get rid of all of them, and isn’t enough to make up for what was done to me. I am cobbling together adjunct jobs (pay is typically $2000-2500 a course of which you can usually only teach 1-2 at a time, so it means work for multiple schools, so they don’t have to pay benefits) and hunting for anything, including minimum wage stuff - especially if it has health insurance but min wage jobs are reluctant to hire some with much of a higher education.
I worked, many years ago, in Unity, Maine for an outdoor adventure program. A favorite memory was canoeing a bunch of miles, all day in a mild headwind, across a lake smelling sweet apple. When we finally got where we were going there was a lone apple tree in bloom on the shore. I like New England. My main catch is housing. Nineteen months of being homeless and couch surfing was enough. Don’t really want to do that again. Trouble is HUD has waiting lists, typically years long, so I wait.
I wasn’t thinking of either ACA or Medicaid (which barely exists in MSN stats es anyway).
I was thinking of either states in which housing is “reasonable” and these states have some sort of medical option of their own creation (such as Maine or Massachusetts), or urban counties which have such options.
Dallas County had some sort of care option for people who are basically self-supporting, but can’t afford insurance. It runs thru Parkland and the neighborhood satellites. I don’t know the rules and you may have to have ACA in order to qualify.
Fort Worth (Tarrant County) has similar. I suspect the counties containing Houston, San Antonio, El Paso and some other Texas urban counties do also. Each one has its own rules. (Austin prob has this but housing is $$$.).
I presume s number of urban counties have this as a medical option.
As for housing - I don’t know the details of your circumstances or want you to spill them here, but could you enter into a decent “roommate” type situation until you could get subsidized housing and or find an affordable edible place of your own, if it made sense otherwise to move?
Those are always available, and many of them are quite nice, amd esp likely to be open to someone of your education.
your edu career appears to look unpromising. Is that final? Or is there a path somehow to getting into a decent edu track?
If not, can you leverage the MBA/PhD combo into part-time private consulting or working with a consulting company, and then leverage that into a private sector job w decent benefits? Such as in finance-banking-insurance-investing-biz services? That might give you far more flexibility once you got it going, and then eventually get you the opportunity of a job w a large corporate employer w insurance … Or possibly get grab a federal or other public sector job?
I dunno. I hate to see you possibly facing some sort of no-insurance doom.
I have always heard that many PhD’s who exited academia or never joined up in the first place then found trouble getting ordinary work, because everyone assumes that if you don’t have something high-level and prestigious, then obviously you’re professionally defective.
Isn’t that why a lot of former academics wind up driving big rigs? The PhD’s like the freedom, and that industry doesn’t discriminate?
@f00l says: "or find an affordable edible place of your own"
While this might save on grocery bills, it could also lend whole new shades of meaning to "eating yourself out of house and home."
I so love “Siri”. Or that’s what I call the autocorrect on my iphone, it deserves a name.
Not only does it routinely mangle words into something I could not possibly have meant in Cupertino’s furthest reaches of imagination, it also routinely inserts extra dup words or related semi-dup words with zero justification.
Sometimes “Siri” gets so excited, it dups entire phrases for no apparent reason. I catch some of it. Usually I am in a hurry, impatient, and too po’d to do a full careful read-thru, and the results are often so hilarious that it’s worth appearing consistently brain-free just to see what “Siri” came up with this time.
And then I do catch most the the egregious semi-random “corrections”. Just after the edit window closes.
This comes from typing at stop lights and parking meters and on elevators and the like.
I used to be mortified.
Now I realize it gives me plausible deniability re sanity, so WIN-WIN.
Any who dare to believe that actual value lies within the @f00l/“Siri” combo does so at their own risk.
@f00l No. Absolutely not. Je refuse. I absolutely draw the line at autocorrect, that shit is whack and I will not take responsibility for it. Go blame Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, whoever invented Clippy, or someone equally deserving because this goat is not gonna take it.
I’ll blame you for everything that’s fun to blame you for. That’s my job. And since I’m celebrating also, genuinely, as you requested, I think I’m playing along nicely.
If you refuse to accept blame for things that are clearly absurd, hmmm. Perhaps you lack the inner conviction and steadfast blame-accepting determination and character strength a true goat should have.
For which I blame you.
J’accuse!
However I celebrate that you will come back with some remark or other so Yea!
@f00l Housing in El Paso is very reasonable especially if you arent hung up on modern amenities. In the central area where I live a lot of the huge old mansions have been broken up into a half dozen strange little studio apartments and rent is very cheap, maybe $300 a month. They have the basics like bathrooms and kitchens but fall short on accessibility, heating and cooling, that sort of thing. We have a state university (UTEP) and a communuty college but I have no idea how their hiring works. We have medical safety net agencies, in fact we have had some major medical education facilities built here recently, but I don’t know how we are on indigent major medical. It might be worth a look, though. Here’s a report card for us, looks pretty fair. http://realestate.usnews.com/places/texas/el-paso
@moondrake Thanks for the info. In hud housing I am currently paying $120/mo including utilities so it will take a lot to be cheaper than that. Grant you it is around 400 square feet and 2 rooms and a motel style heater/AC but it is better than what was going on before. It is what it is…
@f00l Before my best friend died last year we were considering moving to the Caribbean. We’d planned to spend part of our vacation in August looking at homes on Roatan, our favorite island. But I don’t think I want to do that alone.
@f00l I accept the blame for everything but autocorrect. Nothing you say or do will change this much as nothing I said or did would get a sonnet out of you!
@cranky1950 totally agree. If you can convince poorly educated idiots whose life is shit that voting for will make things better-then you will get their vote.
These low information people will quickly learn that their savior has been taking advantage of people like them all his life.
And regardless of who is President, these people’s will remain in the crapper for a variety of reasons.
Donald Trump can’t solve the fact that you have a third grade education or that their job is now obsolete and is never coming back.
@JanaS And YOU obstructed and paralyzed the country for 8 years, rather than put differences aside and work to run this country in a sane way, because YOU didn’t get your way. Besides you lost the popular vote by millions and this is America. Hardly a mandate, especially with gerrymandered districts. Fortunately people in this country are allowed to be upset with the government.
@JanaS Why is it that you can’t spell? “Immasculate” isn’t a word in the English language dictionary. Why is it that “you” can’t understand that Clinton won the popular vote? She got 65,844,954 (48.2%) to his 62,979,879 (46.1%), almost 2.9 million more.
@OldCatLady why is is that you can’t understand that the presidential election is not a raw popularity contest by majority rule for a reason? A handful of major population centers do not an entire country represent.
Also @Pantheist - Regarding 7 Obamacare is broken because it does neither of those two things.
@jbartus I know it frustratingly excludes the lowest income people (being one myself), but at least it was working in the right direction. It also did make it so us poor people could take advantage of the system to get coverage for a month when we need surgery- yes gaming the system is bad, but if you need an expensive medical procedure and can’t pay there is no good solution. I was under the impression people with pre-existing conditions did get coverage now. Is that wrong?
@jbartus Really? No coverage for pre-existing conditions under Obamacare? Is that what you’re saying? And if it is, would you like to bet the farm on that?
@jbartus - Perhaps ACA isn’t perfect because the tea partiers fought so long and hard to block it as originally drafted. They managed to cut it back, then blamed Obama for the result. I’m not sure why conservatives hate it so much. Millions of people will suffer from an indiscriminate repeal.
One crucial quality missing in this administration is compassion.
@Pantheist@lisaviolet people with preexisting conditions have the option of getting coverage now but often not the means because of people gaming the system. @sammydog01 Obamacare’s success was predicated upon 100% enrollment in coverage which it never achieved. Plans have consistently been becoming more and more expensive as a result often pricing people who have those preexisting conditions out of the market. I have an acquaintance who is a survivor of a very treatable form of cancer whose insurance cost literally doubled heading into FY2017 versus 2016 and his coverage already cost a small fortune. It is unsustainable.
@KDemo maybe they feel that it was approaching the problem in the wrong way? Maybe some of them think that the answer is less about forcing everybody to be insured to subsidize the cost of those who are expensive to treat and more about implementing solutions to things like the absurd cost of drugs in the US or the insane expenses doctors incur as a result of this lawsuit-happy society we live in.
The problem we have more than anything in this country is that people too often label anyone who doesn’t agree with their solution to a problem. Labels don’t help anybody, ever. Quit labeling people and have a discussion with them, if we don’t work together in a constructive manner then nothing lasting will ever get done, it will continue to be an endless cycle of implement and repeal.
@jbartus The premiums rise because the insurance companies are a bunch of greedy sons of bitches.
My husband has always been self-employed. So, we got insurance where we could, did a lot of shopping around. When he turned fifty (long before the ACA) our premium doubled. Overnight. From $250 to $500. We shopped around again. And Every. Single. Year. Our premium was raised. Every year. Without fail. Not that we used it on a regular basis. We paid more in premiums that it cost the company to pay our medical bills. But, just in case…we always had it.
We had a friend, too, who was self-employed and because he had a pre-existing condition, his rate was $1000 a month. His condition? High blood pressure. Easily treatable with medication.
Before the ACA, people who had pre-existing conditions were put into a pool of other people with pre-existing conditions and the premiums skyrocketed. With the ACA, you couldn’t be charged a higher premium.
The problem is the insurance companies. And big pharma. And greedy CEOs.
@jbartus Oy. Now it’s important to work together? Tell that to McConnell and his cronies. I believe that now the right wing deserves a taste of its own medicine. And as far as medicine, will they fix the drug pricing problem and reign in malpractice costs before repealing something that is working, and getting better?
From Money - "These increased costs for employers and employees alike may seem steep—up around 50% over the past eight years—but they could have risen far higher had the Affordable Care Act never passed."
Also https://www.healthinsurance.org/blog/2016/07/29/health-premiums-after-obamacare-theyre-lower/
@lisaviolet I would have no objections to looking at regulating the insurance industry, god knows I have my own issues with them. This is, however, a prime example of how people can agree that there’s a problem and disagree on how to fix it. I don’t see the ACA as having fixed anything in the long run, you can say it was the result of gutting or whatever but the fact remains that as implemented it’s broken.
If you’re interested in my thoughts, I think we need to attack this problem from all angles. The insurance industry needs to be regulated because you’re right, they post record profits year after year. The legal vulnerability for hospitals and doctors needs to be closed up, it’s far too broad right now – if you are maimed by a doctor it’s one thing, if a treatment isn’t successful it’s an entirely different thing. This practice of litigation at the drop of the hat needs to end. Another practice that needs to end is hospitals padding their rates for insurance companies to then chop down.
That’s part of why it’s not practical to seek coverage without insurance, an Aspirin does not cost $60 (though the hospital’s insurance costs relating to the litigation aspect play into this as well, see what I mean about all angles?) – worst case if we’re still going to let the insurance companies negotiate the prices down then hospitals need to empower their staff to negotiate with patients paying out of pocket on the same level. And finally, and most significantly in my mind, the pharmaceuticals industry needs to have the reins put on and we need to fix our patent laws in this country to stop situations like Daraprim from happening whereby companies like Turing have exclusivity of distribution preventing competition in the market.
Any solution that doesn’t address all of these areas is doomed to failure.
@jbartus One of the things the ACA did was to hold insurance companies accountable to some degree. (Like the 80/20 rule.)
I’m pretty sure that a lot of the politicians (both parties) are in the pockets of the insurance industry and big pharma.
(That’s another thing that needs to change, but that’s for another time.)
A few years back, a woman on one of the forums I hung out at had a miscarriage. They couldn’t afford the hospital bill. (They already had three kids.) Over $65,000 it was. They didn’t pay it.
A few years later, she starts complaining about people who feel entitled. And I was thinking to myself how hypocritical that was of her. Because the hospital can’t keep operating when they incur losses like hers. No, they pass the cost on. To the government (write offs) and insurance companies (in the form of higher prices) which are passed on to us, the consumers who DO pay for their insurance.
I don’t know why I brought that up, it just always annoyed the hell out of me.
As for insurance fraud, there’s always going to be someone who takes advantage of the system. ($60 aspirin?)
@KDemo I don’t know what Fantasy Island your sources are living on but I don’t know a single person who’s got a better deal now than they had pre-Obamacare and any claims that it’s prevented costs from being even higher are speculative at best. The people I do know are:
Not on the same plan they had pre-ACA despite promises that they could keep it
Often not seeing the same doctors as networks have shifted resulting from the ACA
Paying higher premiums
Paying higher deductibles
Having less coverage
Those last three bullet points aren’t “or” entries either, that’s all three simultaneously.
@jbartus Are you saying that before, when cancer was figured into premiums, his insurance would have been cheaper? Because I 'm pretty sure he would have been screwed over.
@lisaviolet you were right to bring it up because it is an argument for the case that we absolutely need to do something because the status quo isn’t working.
$60 Aspirin wasn’t a hypothetical, it was from my dad’s hospital bills when he had his accident a few years ago. That’s what the dose price for an aspirin tablet was.
@sammydog01 I have no info on that specific, but the point is that it’s not working because it’s basically on the cusp of where he won’t be able to afford it either way. In other words, the ACA is not helping him. Even if it helped him get coverage in the first place it’s demonstrably unsustainable.
@jbartus I’m pretty sure that $60 aspirin includes the services of the nurse who delivered it. And Americans in general have no concept of dying gracefully- we like to go out in the hospital having tons of procedures costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe that’s part of the problem?
@lisaviolet I’m guessing from the talk of caps and such that you’re probably one of those preexisting condition people who were getting a bad deal before? I’m quite happy for you that things have improved, sadly your tale is not the norm in my experience.
@sammydog01 I agree with you there. It sounds cold but at some point we need to stop trying to keep everybody alive and accept the fact that their body is breaking and shutting down and that that’s alright, that it’s better to go out with dignity than to die grasping on to the last vestiges of life while having no quality of life as you lie in a hospital bed dependent on three separate machines working in harmony to keep you alive.
@jbartus Nope. No pre-existing conditions for either of us. No health problems to speak of (besides the high blood pressure and at 63, it’s not a surprise).
Believe it or not, I just care about others, is all. I know that life isn’t all about me.
@jbartus My family’s situation improved. Our premiums didn’t rise that much. Our plan covers 100% in network still (and it’s a pretty wide network). No deductible. Copays are $15 for GPs and $30 for specialists. No copays for preventative care now. We’re a lot better off now, insurance wise. My daughter started getting allergy shots last year. She’s probably got five more years to go. Right now, it’s covered 100%. She also has food allergies and both my kids have asthma. Getting rid of protections for preexisting conditions scares me. She had five surgeries to remove pilomatrixomas between 2010 & 2014. We paid nothing out of pocket. If she ever gets more, and we’ve had to change insurance for any reason, I bet future surgeries won’t be covered. These protections were necessary. And while I know the ACA wasn’t able to help everyone, I personally know a lot of people whose lives were literally saved due to having insurance through ACA.
@PurplePawprints that’s really great, I am under no circumstances claiming that the Affordable Care Act did nothing for anybody, but I do think it has been a net negative and feel strongly that it has already demonstrated that in the long run it is unsustainable. It was a band aid for a problem that requires major surgery.
@lisaviolet I’m not really sure how I’m meant to take your last sentence there. Not wanting to be all oversensitive or anything but I can’t help but feel like there was an implication there that you care about others and feel that I don’t. Please tell me I’m wrong?
By the way another issue I didn’t mention earlier is the irrational disparity between costs of care in the ER versus other parts of the same building. Why should the same procedure cost three times as much in the ER?
@OldCatLady Popular vote does not count.
I’d be really pissed if I carpet-bombed America with non-stop commercials using massive amounts of money from every special interest and union in the country… to lose.
Clinton had crappy advice or is just stupid. I hope it’s the first one.
You need to run a campaign to win electoral votes to win the election, especially if it’s predicted to be a close election. Spending time and money in the wrong areas will cause you to fail.
Neither candidate won over 50% of the count. Many who are protesting didn’t even vote. There’s large protests every time a Republican wins, to the point of keeping Republicans from going out to enjoy the win.
If everything is totally screwed up in two years, Democrats can take back the House & Senate! If things are working out just fine… we’ll see.
Although I thought a little about your “we need to stop trying to keep everybody alive” comment.
Who’s going to make that decision. A panel? A death panel? That was one of the points used by the Republicans about the scary things that would happen with the implementation of the ACA. Death panels! There will be death panels!
That to me is a personal choice. But from my experience, someone who wants to go, goes. It’s the family that won’t let it happen. My father-in-law quit eating. My mom quit eating. Both were in care facilities with DNRs.
Remember Terry Schiavo? I’m all for the right to die with dignity.
@jbartusI have a better deal than before ACA care. Why? Because before that I could only have insurance if I had a job that offered it. With preexisting conditions being covered involved the high risk pool and even years later that is more expensive with FAR less coverage than what I have now even though now I am paying $1119.19/mo.
@PurplePawprints Count me as one of them too. My two cancers in one year gig with chemo through the second year and them problems though the next two (nearly killed my bone marrow) started out on company insurance, ended with COBRA and then fortunately for me ACA (although I had to buy off the exchange since the network didn’t have the specialist I needed and since I made too little to get a subsidy, the price was within $10 or so a month, I bought it off the exchange. Where there no ACA I would have had no insurance when COBRA ended because of the pre-existing conditions issue.
@lisaviolet I was watching a tv show and a woman with terminal cancer checked into a care facility for the purpose of assisted suicide. She talked it over a bit with the nurse and then settled in for a peaceful and dignified exit while the nurse prepared the meds. All I could think was, “where is this place? Do you have to live there or can you hire this service as a non-resident?” With Alzheimers being 100% on my mom’s side of the family (they call it the Family Curse, as far back as family history goes it’s been a guarantee for anyone making it to 70), this is a very real question for me. I have absolutely no desire to end my life demeaned and dehumanized as I watched with my great grandmother, grandmother and mother.
@lisaviolet I am with you on the caring about others. In my opinion, as a society we have an obligation to help others and create a safety net for people whose lives are imploding. Not to mention some of the disabled, mentally ill, low IQ, some elderly, etc. may never be successful in this society (and of course some will). I so fail to understand people who operate using the me me me and the hell with anyone else mentality. Many of them may well be one cancer or other disaster away from the situation I find myself in. I also resent that those who use services get labeled as bums gaming the system, too lazy to work, etc.
I never would have thought, after working since I was 14, with an education blah blah blah that I EVER would have been in the situation I am in now. I grew up poor because my dad was a minister, but I was solidly middle class, savings (enough that lasted me nearly a year and that is with medical expenses), retirement money saved… and now I live below the poverty line most months and spent 19 months homeless couch surfing. In fact my address wasn’t even my own because I was moving around so much my mail never would have caught up with me.
To me one of the bigger ironies is the party of the christian, family values apparently have forgotten what the new testament says about helping the less fortunate…
@lisaviolet Now won’t need death panels because by gutting health insurance so that the poor, those with pre-existing conditions, etc. can’t get insurance thus can’t get medical care will die. I guess that is one way to try to solve the “poverty problem” and “cleanup” the gene pool… Sigh.
You are correct about our health care costs and systems needing to be assessed and reformed from all angles - insurance, pharmacy, hospital al profits, the costs of educating physicians (someone who goes into family practice or a few other specialities may never make enough to pay their educational loans), the legal system, etc. And the insurance system, the reimbursement and auditing systems, the “death with dignity” and hospice access, the stupid unnecessary expenses, and on and on.
My life has gotten better with ACA because I can now purchase decent insurance. I receive no subsidies. Have no pre-existings. The insurance available for purchase previously had horrible limitations, was more expensive, and in all ways worse (with worse in-network choices). It was so bad and so expensive I just crossed my fingers and hoped. So far I’ve been lucky.
Many family members and friends have insurance from employee plans. Not one of those plans has gotten worse faster during the existence of the ACA than those plans and offerings did before the existence of the ACA (the plans had been getting worse and more expensive annually every year for the last 25+ years, without exception).
The people I know are, in some cases, covered by small company plans (100 persons or fewer, 20 persons or fewer, etc); and in some cases by medium or large company plans ( 1K+ employes, 10k+ employees or much larger); and in some cases by industry and professional group plans. And some didn’t have insurance and some were able to afford the high-risk pools.
All of these plans have gotten worse annually, and more expensive annually, every year since at least 1990. That’s 27 years of getting worse every years without exception. Wanna know if that’s accurate? Ask anyone who dealt with this in HR or who administered or sold these plans. Anyone. And there is a buttload of industry and journalistic documentation. Magazine covers. Industry advisories. The works. Since the Reagan era if not before.
How exactly did the ACA create a problem that’s been getting worse for many decades?
In many cases individual plans were simply not available for purchase, excepting students. After the creation of high- risk pools, the plans were limited and often completely unaffordable to a member of the middle class (premiums sometimes for more than $1k/person each month even 15+ years ago.
So people went without. In my state, among the full-time employed, something close to 40% were uninsured for most of the 20 years prior to the ACA.
I know of no individual, and no small biz owner (I know a lot of these) whose situation is worse with the ACA.
Perhaps things are diff in MA.
Yes, ACA is to some degree a band-aid and is flawed, in part because of Washington politics and the choice the Republicans made in Jan 2009 to block or oppose every Democratic initiative without exception. In part because so many politicians at state and federal levels are already bought and paid for by various profitable portions of the health care industry. In part because politicians simply do not want to tell the truth on this topic. You think the Obama admin oversold the ACA? Wait till you see what the Rep Congress and the Trump admin do. And wait till you see how the big $ interests respond to anything they don’t like.
Hello to fake news, the next generation.
But since our political system is insanely partisan right now and many politicians put party loyalty ahead of their constituents’ well-being, that’s what we get. Trump has nothing better to offer. The republicans, who have consistently lied about the ACA, have nothing better they are willing to offer.
I would love to see the ACA improved, or replaced by something that is actually an improvement for those who have trouble getting or affording health care at all. Right now, the ACA is an improvement in every way over what came before.
Or we can drop it, replace it with nothing or with one of the massively inferior republican offerings, and transition to being the sort of society where healthcare is a primary marker of class - and, with few exceptions, only the upper middle-class and above commonly has health insurance from any source other than a county charity, or only the upper-middle-class and above have health coverage that isn’t horrible.
The law previous to the ACA already allowed companies to distinguish health insurance offerings by “employee tier”, this allowing companies to offer excellent plans to executives and top employees, while lower level employees received much less attractive plans or in some cases no coverage at all. Without the ACA, the trend of not covering low-level employees or offering them terribly coverage will increase, due to health insurance costs. And what of the self-employed? They get coverage where?
I know of one local company who does this. Management gets so-so coverage. Upper mgmt gets excellent coverage. Full-time regular employees - more than 80% of total employees, who make not much $ - get no health coverage at all. The company has operated that way for 40+ years, it has nothing to do with the ACA. After the ACA, the regular employees whose spouses didn’t have coverage were able to purchase heath insurance for the first time since starting to work there.
I know of some very large corporations who were considering using the “decreasing benefits, increasing premiums, decreasing company contributions method” of reducing the #'s of employees covered by healthcare for non-mgmt, non-contract, and non-specialty employees prior to the ACA, because those companies believed all other companies would do this also, so there would still be no shortage of employees available. They hoped to eventually offer minimal coverage or no coverage to normal employees at all, while offering “Cadillac plans” to favored upper employees. All these companies had to do to implement this was to create legal employee tiers and then purchase and implement group plans according to their goals. This was legal legal legal on a national level, tho a few states may have regulated this practice. Texas did not.
With or without the ACA, our health system’s finances and the means of paying for it completely suck and have for decades, ever since industry lobbying started to matter more than offering good quality to the consumer. Tho the medical care and the technology can be quite good if you have good coverage or $. The ACA didn’t create the suckage. Remove the ACA, replace it with something inferior (which is likely), and things would suck way more.
It might help to fix the system if people would stop bringing partisan party politics into it, and discuss it honestly.
It might help if people really understood how healthcare works, and how politics is captive to the healthcare and insurance industries. And what insurance is, how it works, and how it works if you can’t get it or can’t afford what’s out there.
It might help if people who believe in a “pure free market” (doesn’t exist, but, for the sake of argument , let’s assume … ) would be completely honest about the necessary result being many people, and over time increasing percentages of the population, being very badly covered or having no coverage at all.
And if people would stop blaming the problems on the admittedly imperfect ACA, which did not cause these problems in the first place. Yeah, the ACA has probs, but you really want to go back to the pre-ACA world?
Hello, hell.
I would prefer moving forward toward something better, unlikely as that seems at this moment.
@Kidsandliz As patriots, we Democrats need to rise to the occasion and work with the president we’ve got, even if he’s not the president we wanted. But Republicans have no business saying that to us, as so many of their appointed leaders resoundingly proved themselves not to be patriots by preferring to see the country fail than see anything Obama touched succeed. They spent eight years throwing an enormous tantrum and made it very clear that the welfare of our country and her people were far less important to them than their egos and agendas. Based on their behavior, the protests by Democrats are more than justified. But we must not measure our behavior by their short yardstick, but by our own. We need to organize (always a challenge for Democrats), acquiesce gracefully to those policies and plans that are benefial or neutral and fight tooth and nail against those that are destructive. Not stall this country, as Congressional Republicans strove to do, but protect her.
@moondrake I agree but it takes two in order to cooperate… so they have a hand in allowing cooperation to succeed as well and not insist, like a little kid, that cooperation means “my way” as first priority. I am not sure they are capable of that unfortunately or they wouldn’t not have behaved the way they did for 8 years. Hope to be proven wrong but I won’t be placing a bet with the London bookies.
@f00l If we take immunization and basic health care away from the poor and middle class and let disease and ill health run rampant among them, the rich will not be immune to the suffering. Immunizations are not 100% effective, they rely on “herd immunity”, wherein most individuals one comes in contact with are also vaccinated so the chance of contact with infected persons is low. Most of the “1%” come into contact with the other 99% on a daily basis. If their drivers, pilots, doormen, maids, cooks, etc. are sick, it makes them vulnerable to it. Even if we don’t eliminate immunization and just take regular primary care out of the average person’s reach, the number of people suffering catastrophic health problems from diabetes, cancer and heart disease alone would be crippling. If we decided not to provide costly medical care for those laid low by disease I’d imagine their loved ones would uncooperatively struggle to take care of them and this would result in increased crime and possibly decreased productivity. It all reminds me of the battlefield adage “aim to maim”, because killing an enemy removes one enemy, seriously injuring one removes him and everyone needed to help him. Making healthcare inaccessible to poor and middle income persons is effectively aiming to maim the working class, which is by no means beneficial to those who ride to wealth upon their backs.
Agreed. I believe that a highly tired healthcare system where decent care is increasingly unaffordable, minimal care available to everyone else is either not good or nearly inaccessible, would lead to social, economic, and productivity declines, less favorable business environments, and quickly worsening health across society, impacting the rich in addition to everyone else.
The higher tech, more educated, and more dominant a country, the more imperative it becomes that services which contribute widely across various income situations to productivity and basic opportunity (including higher education and healthcare) and services that mean that the most vulnerable receive basic care and the possibility of a decent life are essential to preserving the wealth and productivity of that country.
The example I used previously - about institutionalized class system healthcare becoming more common here that it already is - was intended as an example of policies and practices likely to lead toward worsening productivity and intense class resentment, as well as the institutionalization of a permanent underclass and a worse business environment.
@jbartus Saw this while working. Looks like plenty of people are better off with obamacare in place, unless there’s some argument that they’ll be better off without insurance.
CBO and JCT estimate that enacting H.R. 3762 would increase the number of people without health insurance coverage- relative to current-law projections- by about 22 million people in most years after 2017.
@Pantheist that number represents less than 7% of the US population. Continuing to saddle 100% of the population with an unsustainable system to benefit 7% in the short term (remember my friend, the cancer survivor? He’s about to be priced out of insurance, how long for the rest of that 7%, never mind the other 93%?) is not a viable proposition.
It needs to be replaced, it’s a broken half-measure of a system that doesn’t address many of the key issues. Yeah it benefits a segment of the population, but for how long?
@jbartus If you allow insurance companies to price based on pre-existing conditions your friend will never, ever be able to afford insurance because he has a giant “C” tatooed on his forehead. I suggest you find a better example for your arguments.
@Pantheist I don’t disagree with you in principle, I too would prefer that order of events, but we don’t get to live in an ideal world.
@sammydog01 I have no desire to do so. I find it interesting how my position against the ACA on grounds of ineffectiveness and lack of fiscal sustainability suddenly makes me pro-insurance discrimination in your mind.
@lisaviolet An inability to discuss the issues and try to find a middle ground instead of insisting on ‘my way or the highway’ is what will ensure that a replacement isn’t enacted in a timely manner. Keep on about those death panels. The Aetna situation has what bearing here? It demonstrates only that the ACA was subject to abuse and misuse by both sides (patients and insurance companies)
@jbartus I assumed you were pro pre-ACA, and that’s the way it was. Giving folks with medical problems the same cost insurance as healthy ones is what brings the costs up, right? You either charge high users more or spread the cost to low users.
It sounds cold but at some point we need to stop trying to keep everybody alive and accept the fact that their body is breaking and shutting down and that that’s alright.
I asked you who would make the decision to end the life. You didn’t answer.
As for the Aetna link, it was just underscoring how the insurance company plays everyone. It wasn’t the
ACA’s fault they pulled out of the markets. It was because they didn’t get their way to get even bigger (and greedier) than they already were.
Oh, and I found this about abuse. Looks like care providers are a big part of it.
@jbartus Considering the Republicans are more likely than not to let the ACA hang out in a broken state (anything that doesn’t require going to Congress will go ASAP), and a replacement (if any) is not likely to be forthcoming soon or nearly as comprehensive as the current plan, is it better to fight to keep what’s in place or let it go and hope that things will get better?
@sammydog01 or you attack the high costs at the sources. Why aren’t any of you going after the pharmaceutical industry? Getting behind legal reform to limit the legal vulnerability of people whose goal in life is to help other people? It’s a multi-faceted problem, the ACA was not fixing even half of it.
@lisaviolet I am referring to the larger societal issue where we want to keep everybody alive for as long as we can, not convening death boards to pick who lives and dies.
I have no love for the insurance companies, they suck and my loved ones have fought their own battles with them. Aetna was certainly in the wrong using their participation as a bargaining chip for preferential treatment but it’s no different than companies from any other industry negotiating with the government. “We’ll send jobs overseas if you don’t…” etc.
@dashcloud since what is in place is broken, I don’t see that there’s a whole lot to fight to keep other than the equal cost and pre-existing condition provisions. Luckily the Democrats have 46 votes in the Senate which means they can push for these provisions under the threat of filibuster. Unlike when the Republicans did the same thing, the Democrats can’t be ignored because they single-handedly have six more votes than required to filibuster. Healthcare reform is such a hot-button issue that it is a matter of political necessity to both sides to implement some kind of reform, leaving it open ended for perpetuity won’t fly.
@jbartus Republicans already have a plan to get rid of the mandate and subsidies as a budget resolution, which can’t be filibustered. What do you think will happen to premiums if those go and the rules about pre-existing conditions stay?
@Pantheist while you are correct that as budgetary matters the mandate (a tax) and subsidies can be eliminated through reconciliation and you’re right that this has the potential to create the situation you described, the Democrats retain the same power I mentioned on other issues and, as happens so often in Washington, the “you do this for my bill and I’ll do this for yours” principle applies. As I stated, something has to be implemented to replace the ACA, it’s a matter of political necessity to both parties, the Democrats for obvious reasons and the Republicans because they’ve promised to do so and it’s too big an issue to ignore. The Democrats hold significant power with their ability to filibuster because they can actively stop the Republicans in their tracks and spin it as “they’re not giving a fair deal to the American people” whereas the Republicans will be left with their collective asses hanging out in the wind. That’s when concessions are made.
Now, you could argue that another reconciliation be enacted thereafter, and you’d be right, but that could be done one way or another President Trump or no.
@jbartus I think it’s also worth noting that the reconciliation process is exactly how these features were implemented. technically speaking they’re not part of the Affordable Care Act. the Affordable Care Act which was crafted in the Senate by misappropriating another bill that passed the house already and modified removing any semblance of the original bill was shove through the Senate making use of the temporary senate note held by a stand-in for the then deceased Kennedy prior to the special election. Upon election of Scott Brown, a Republican, who ran on a platform of filibustering the act in the Senate and won the election in one of the bluest states in the country House Democrats opted to push through the bill and do their best and do their best to modify it through reconciliation thereafter. the point of all this being that it’s a legitimate tool in our political system the point of all this being that it’s a legitimate tool in our political system that both parties have used towards their own ends.
Some parts of the ACA will be difficult to gut, due to horse trading and filibuster threats.
I would think that the Republican Congress would be cautious about the 2018 elections and be careful how far they go in dismembering the ACA without a credible backup in place.
So far the the rhetoric I’ve heard has sounded more extreme than I expected. Rhetoric is not legislation, so future unknown. But the Congress is so polarized, and many members so ideological, that the final result seems quite up in the air.
If the majority of Republicans choose hard-line ideology, then even if they can’t fully repeal the ACA, they can leave it on life support.
@f00l@Pantheist@jbartus
President Trump has already stated that the pre-existing conditions clause and the coverage under their parents policy for children living with their parents until they’re 26 will stay. He also has warned Congress not to repeal the ACA without an acceptable replacement.
One of the basic principles of the ACA was that the younger people covered would be subsidizing the older folks because they wouldn’t need to use insurance as much. This would keep rates down because costs would be spread out. This has for all intents and purposes (IMHO) turned into a bigger Ponzi scheme than Social Security. Young people have realized it’s a lot cheaper to pay the monthly penalty than to pay the premiums. If something did happen they could go online and buy insurance for as long as it was needed. (Can’t be turned down for pre-existing conditions remember?) So cost sharing across the age groups isn’t working. Insurance Companies are losing part of their (admittingly gross) profits so they are jacking up their prices or just pulling out of the market place all together. Like any Ponzi scheme this is not sustainable for long. If the insurance companies all pull out what happens to the ACA? My guess is what the Progressives really want: Single-payer healthcare.
@jbartus Sorry about letting you shoulder most of the burden of this discussion. My Sister-in-Law is going into Hospice after a 2 1/2 year battle with brain cancer so I’ve been a bit distracted of late. I read all the back and forth and agree with your stand on the matter; especially your take on death with dignity. There comes a time when anything else done just prolongs the agony. While it should NEVER be the choice of the insurance company it should always be a choice of the individual or their family if they aren’t capable of making that choice.
@JanaS Without restating earlier points, single payer healthcare would be great. You know why medical shit costs so much more in the US than other countries? If you have one insurer that covers 90% of the population, they have amazing negotiating power to bring costs down.
@Pantheist
But who’s going to pay for it? This country is already almost $20 TRILLION in debt. What are you willing to forgo in order to pay for it? Defense? Education? Our National Parks? YOUR PAYCHECK???
When has the government, Dem or Rep, EVER negotiated anything in favor of the people at the expense of corporate America? Reality check! And if a private insurance company had a 90% monopoly they could charge whatever they wanted to. If you didn’t like it than you could take your business to… oh wait!
Why not pass a law that states a hospital or Pharmaceutical company cannot charge anyone more than the lowest price negotiated with any insurance company? And while you’re at it, what about doing something about that $150,625 appendicitis operation at Bayonne Hospital Center, Bayonne, NJ that only costs $100,440 at Somerset Medical Center, Somerville, NJ? (Acute appendicitis with localized peritonitis, ICD10 Code K353) ACA was written for the insurance companies so they would buy in. It was not written for the consumer. That’s what needs to change.
Here’s another idea. Let’s take 10 Democrats and 10 Republicans chosen by lot and lock them up in one of the government bunkers until they agree on a replacement for the ACA. That way the Republicans can’t do what the Democrats did and ramrod through something the other party doesn’t agree with.
my main concern was the supreme court. our country needs constitution upholding judges on the supreme court. hillary would have appointed another liberal, and then there would not be any balance at all. i had no choice but to vote for trump.
to me, the liberal party leadership has veered to far left again, and the american people had to reign them in again. just like if trump, well, he’s not a true conservative… but if the conservative party leadership veers to far to the right again, the american people will reign them in again too. it’s a roundy, roundy, here we go again thing.
newly elected presidents have high hopes they can bring about real change. it ain’t that easy. every president does get a couple things done for the betterment of america. i hope trump can make a couple of changes that improve america too. all bitchin aside. USA? i don’t want to live anywhere else, and i want every person who wants to be here to say " I am an American!!!" period.
@mick The wife is a registered Democrat but she voted for President Trump for much the same reasons. The Democratic Party anymore seems to stand for special interest groups while ignoring the working people who are the backbone of this great nation.
@mick@mehrocco_Mole I’m sorry, but I disagree. I don’t think we’ve ever had any truly liberal Judges. We’re too conservative of a country to have any true Liberal Judges. The Democratic party is in special interests and doesn’t give a crap about us… but I think the republicans don’t give a crap about us either. The only one that cared about us… Well he’s still doing his best… but we didn’t give him enough power.
/giphy Bernie Sanders
@sohmageek of course you are right about both party’s lack of caring. that’s why folks ended up voting for trump. to shake things up! the whole bernie socialist slant scares the bejeebsy out of me. like venezuela… you don’t have to say sorry. we can respectfully and cordially disagree.
@mick it’s not a slant. He is a democratic socialist. He is also very real. I’ve talked to him in person. Some of our best minds in the world and in history want socialism. Star trek’s starfleet is 100% socialism, so is social security, the fire department, public libraries, public schools… socialism isn’t scary when implemented correctly.
{gets on political soapbox}
With all the negativity about Trump I want to say… which is more scary. Trump/Pence or Pence/Ryan… that is all
{hops off and burns soapbox}
@lisaviolet Agree wholeheartedly. "There are no morals in politics; there is only experience. A scoundrel may be of use because he is a scoundrel.” (Source: noted moral arbiter and politician, V. Lenin.)
@lisaviolet I’d guess he has an off shore shell company (or some other hard to untangle relationship) selling short, etc. prior to his tweets too. Bet his family does too.
@lisaviolet The only catch with Pence/Ryan is that they know how to manipulate the system and that, in some respects, makes them more dangerous in the long run (with respect to what they will manage to get passed or pushed through or executive order through - the piss off our allies and enemies - well they will do less of that).
@sohmageek
Trump is more likely to create an unforeseen idiotic disaster due to his impulsivity and his “if I want it to be true, that makes it true” attitude.
On the absence of such a catastrophe, Trump is less dangerous than Pence/Ryan, who are more capable of inflicting long-term damage.
@moondrake
I am too. The only one I really like so far is at Defense.
But Trump thrives on unpredictability. If he thinks he can go nuts and gain ratings by going populist on something the Republican establishment hates, he won’t care what they think. He would cheerfully defy all of Congress and enjoy the experience.
So I’m booking Trump’s weirdnesses will keep some of the stuff and add agendas in check.
This might be an enormous fantasy. We’ll find out.
@moondrake They are the real movers and shakers, usually (but not always) in concert with the party bosses. The best safeguard is the press, and since there will be little in the way of intelligent words coming out of the WH, they will be concentrating on other government output. (pointing at press).
/giphy reporters
@f00l I do not want to be part of an uncontrolled case study in idiocy when high functioning sociopathic/ borderline personality disorder/ narcissistic, etc. people with empathy lobotomies run the show with few checks and balances in place thank you very much. Too much at stake here.
@OldCatLady The problem is that the press only reports issues that can be summarized in a soundbite, while bureaucracies are vastly complex organisms. Violently destructive policy grenades could be dropped, the significance of which would be hard for the press to understand and all but impossible to explain to the public. Here’s one that’s easily explained but got little press. Early in my bureaucratic career, a president wanted to be able to say he’d reduced poverty during his tenure. He hadn’t. So to enable him to say he had, the definition of poverty was ratcheted down. The process whereby this was done was complex and hard to understand, but the results were not. Tens of thousands of people who were poor yesterday were poor no longer. A magic trick! The problem was their income was the same, but they were no longer eligible to receive help through government funded programs. Kids and old folks literally went hungry, kicked off school lunch and drive-a-meal programs, so this man could claim to have helped them. I have other examples, but that one’s pretty clear cut.
I do not want to be part of an uncontrolled case study in idiocy when high functioning sociopathic/ borderline personality disorder/ narcissistic, etc. people with empathy lobotomies run the show with few checks and balances in place thank you very much. Too much at stake here.
I don’t either. But I seem to have few options at the moment.
Only people that don’t like Obama, Clintons & Bushes either have ANY right to criticize Trump. Because Hillbitch is way, way, way worse. Way worse.
Trump = Peace & Equality (& lots and lots of bullshit)
Clintons & Bushes = War & Discrimination (& even more bullshit)
Obama = a failure? I really think he honestly wanted the best, but failed at everything.
Also, fuck both Democrats and Republicans, I hate them equally. My support is not party-affiliated.
hillary did win the popular vote by almost 3 million. mostly because of California.
California Presidential Race Results: Hillary Clinton Wins
Candidate Party Votes
Hillary Clinton Democrat Dem. 8,753,788
Donald J. Trump Republican Rep. 4,483,810
Gary Johnson Libertarian Lib. 478,499
Jill Stein Green Green 278,657
let, california secede from the United States and become an independent country. i’m ok with that.
it is a big state. big enough to be a small country.
it’s what they want. so, let the people of usa vote to release california from the union. i think the voters would let them.
@mick so putting all the political stuff aside, when did California decide they wanted to secede? As a native Californian, this is the first I’m hearing of it.
@jbartus
Any discussion of either CA or TX successfully separating peaceably and without legal blockages (with or without friendly relations to the remaining US) bring up a number of complex issues. CA could get water. Easily and legally, with some bumps in the beginning. CA and Texas could both acquire any lacking resources and industries and could afford to do so.
In such a circumstance, both CA and TX might not be as well off as they are today, or they might be even better off within a decade or so. The remaining US would almost certainly be worse off.
(FWIW, I am not one of those Texans who favors secession).
@mick I’ve been saying that for yrs now. I’ll even go as far as saying, split the country. Let them have their half, take all their pet projects and sjws with them and have their utopia they think they’ll have and leave us the hell alone and, get nothing from us. Not one thing.
@dashcloud I was afraid this was on the horizon, it’s why I kept my crappy overpriced high deductible health plan from my work when I retired. If we’d gotten a Dem I planned on doing some shopping for a better plan through ACA, but with Trump I guess I’m stuck with what I have (and counting myself lucky as it’s more than most people I know will have).
@f00l Completely wrong. His penthouse is quite subdued and tastefully decorated in subtle blues and greens, according to Kellyanne Conway and her “alternative facts” about the President. And the crowd for the inauguration was UUUUGE!, the biggest in history, and much bigger than the crowd on Saturday. The President is enormously popular, won’t release his taxes because no one cares about that, and is working very hard to be the President of ALL the people. All true, if you look at things from a certain angle and accept the alternative facts. Don’t let the cognitive dissonance hit you on the way out of reality.
@rockblossom The trouble is that his followers are already being gobsmacked with cognitive dissonance. Their alternatives are deny the facts or admit they made a mistake and are going to be screwed. 99% of the people who live around here voted the dump. The mental gymnastics some of them use in the face of concrete evidence is to deny that things are happening that bodes poorly for them, and the rest of us who are not wealthy, is rather (sadly) impressive.
@Kidsandliz They’ll find a way to blame it on the Dems. When people complain they can’t afford healthcare, they’ll say the ACA was so expensive it bankrupted the Reps brilliant secret health care plan so they couldn’t implement it. When people complain they can’t find work, they’ll claim that the Dems drove the businesses overseas and they are valiantly trying to bring them back (even their own overseas shops) but people have to hold on till the Holy Free Market creates an environment friendly to US manufacturing (rofcol). When people complain that their groundwater is contaminated and they can’t breathe the air, they’ll find some way to blame it on the Dems environmental regulations making it too expensive for businesses to modernize. And when a massive hurricane smashes the eastern seaboard, they’ll say it was because those godless Dems pissed off God.
Not too often that I post things from youtube (and even worse, my darlings, I saw it first on Facebook). Still, this intelligent (really) comparison of the two presidents (titled Trump Inauguration 2017) is worth watching. Twice.
@OldCatLady so just to be clear, you publish a link to a liberal source doing an analysis you yourself claim nobody else has dared to do and claiming objectivity then when the lack of objectivity of the source is noted you defend the source on the principle that a contradictory source doing the same kind of analysis (the one nobody else has done, remember?) has not been provided. Am I missing anything here?
Sorry I’m not playing this game. You’ve proven how well you fact check your sources on multiple occasions, most recently (prior to this (as best I’ve noticed)) when you posted falsified images claiming Trump ripped his speech off from Bee Movie and Avatar, this is just the latest such occurrence. I’m not even saying the source you linked is incorrect in their analysis, I am specifically calling out your claim of the source’s objectivity, nothing else.
@jbartus Actually, reading the translation of the article (I just went to a website and had them translate the entire webpage which was a little rough around the edges but between that and some german I remember I think I understood all of what they were saying), what they talk about is standard body language interpretation that has been in the literature (and validated) for years - for example how he touched Obama is a way to show dominance. That is done to women all the time by males, or by superiors to subordinates… The video clips they show there document him doing things like that. I know nothing about the website but some of the basics of body language I am familiar.
@dashcloud I have friends in Germany who I talk to on a regular basis, I have also been endeavoring to learn German. I’m a bit of a Deutschophile. We talk about many things not the least of which being the various ways activities in our respective countries are being reported on by our countries’ respective media outlets.
@Kidsandliz as stated, I am not even questioning the findings made on the basis of the clips therein I am challenging the claim of an objective source. The video clips selected for analysis are just as subject to bias as any other cherry picking done by the press. Further, while there are many legitimate uses for body language interpretation it is far from a precise science which is why, for example, it’s not admissible in court.
@jbartus Well they may have cherry picked, but certainly some of what they cherry picked certainly seems consistent with other behaviors he exhibits that seem common.
@Kidsandliz which is all well and good, as I said I am not arguing against the interpretation, I am arguing against the claim of an objective source. I didn’t use liberal in the 4-letter-word manner many do. I simply stated a fact, they are a liberal publication, Trump is a conservative president, they aren’t going to fall over themselves to portray him in a positive light.
@jbartus So the article is not qualified to interpret body language, but you are? So many of the observations are obvious to anyone, especially his inattention to anyone but himself, and the great contrast between Obama and Trump.
I have resolved not to argue with you, you are so maddening in your twisted arrogant viewpoint. You always have to have the last word.
Let’s see if I’m right . . .
@KDemo so just to be clear, am I having the last word if I take the time to answer a question? You did ask one.
So the article is not qualified to interpret body language, but you are?
I’m going to assume not, so here goes: At no point did I either question the article writer’s qualifications to interpret body language nor claim to have such qualifications myself. I did, however, object to the statement that said article was objective as claimed by @OldCatLady here:
It’s objective
I stated, far more politely than I could have, that the publication in question is known for its liberal bias and that the claim of objectivity was therefore spurious, nothing more. What ensued from there was the result of replying to those who replied to me.
I’m happy to let you have the last word with regards to how I have twisted anything.
@jbartus
It’s not clear to me from @OldCatLady’s post whether the “it’s objective” quote refers to the interpretation given by the body language expert, the specific article, or the magazine as a whole.
Is there a reason to assume she meant specifically the magazine?
I think some of the reaction you are getting here might arise from people finding that your posts sometimes come across as carrying a strong intent to sort of correct other’s thoughts and perceptions; for example, to correct perceived errors in other people’s thoughts regarding political issues.
It’s kinda a matter of tone, not always explicitly the exact meaning of your words.
If that’s not your intent as a form of subtext or connotation, please take a look at the “tone” or “vibe” of your posts.
@f00l thanks for the input. To address your question I assumed she meant the article as a whole, I’m not sure I’d treat the expert’s opinions as separate from the same especially given that the expert himself is the author. Even without having read the article in question and seeing pretty clear indications of an agenda in the choices of interpretation, knowing that the publication is liberally biased makes the bias of any article they publish likely. This is further supported by the fact that the writer/expert is an employee of the magazine as noted at the end.
It would be like if I linked a pro-Trump article from Fox News written by Bill O’Reilly and claimed it was objective, I don’t think there’s a single person on this forum, including myself and except maybe this thread’s starter, who would let me get away with such a claim.
As for tone or vibe, no that’s not really my intent but (at the risk of sounding like this topic’s starter) since it’s been made pretty clear that we have an abundance of pro-liberal anti-Trump posters here I do feel like I need to be on the defensive before I’ve even started if I want to discuss these topics in any manner other than blind agreement. Maybe that’s coming through in a way that isn’t the most friendly. Then again it’s text-based communication which is notoriously different to convey emotions and such through.
I don’t care about changing what people think about Trump, what I do care about is people being overeager to believe the worst without doing due diligence (movie quote claims) or representing something as being objective that isn’t. We are responsible for the things we say and/or share and doing so carelessly does us all a disservice. That is the main reason I commented at all on the link, as I’ve maintained since the start. If I just wanted to be contradictory I certainly could have done so otherwise.
@OldCatLady Body language is telling. Oh, that first meeting in the White House.
Melania Trump’s meeting with Michelle Obama was cordial. They looked at each other and talked. Mrs. Obama was relaxed, but Mrs. Trump was not. Look at the hands, because the hands always know.
Donald Trump and Barack Obama. Look at the position of the hands: desperate fig leaf and modified fig leaf protecting the genitals:
If body language interpretation is a form of science to a degree (it’s my uninformed impression that it has some cred), then - if the expert interpreted Trump’s body language correctly - a reasonable claim of potential or possibly actual non-bias can be made. No obvious reason to immediately assume otherwise. The fact that this article was published in a publication you say is known to be liberal does not invalidate potential objectivity in the article, provided the interpretation was done correctly and not selectively.
I find the O’Reilly comparison ineffective. The article writer is supposedly a trained expert. If he acted within the bounds of the discipline, he gets some objectivity cred, based on the cred accrued to the discipline. O’reilly’s cred is in being a talented talk-show host and political provocateur. Fine, but hardly the same sort of training and talent as that of a trained practioner of a specific social sciences or behavioral discipline. O’Reilly appears to have zero objectivity training, tho he is quite gifted at public crowd-pleasing debate (not an objectivity-related talent). I take O’Reilly as being an expert at his craft, that of conservative talk-show host. And only at that. So I fail to see the relevance.
I read both the NYT and the WSJ from time to time. One is considered centrist to center-left, generally speaking; the other is considered center to center right, sometimes hard-right, depending, based on media counts of loaded words and phrases.
I make zero assumptions about the specific content of a specific article based on that. Those are both reputable pubs - I can prob spot them pushing a POV thru omission or commission. Plenty of what each of them publishes is damned solid and carries very little bias, as we currently use that term in political media.
I don’t know about this German pub, but is everything about it biased or doesn’t seem it just kinda lean now and then? That makes a diff. I also don’t know about the qualifications of the body languages age expert. But he just may have done his job well. Or not. So what?
Yes there may be potential bias in that article. But how much does this topic weigh and how much is this topic really not worth after 10 seconds have passed? Let people do their growling and their humorous remarks.
since Trump’s body behavior on a single occasion is hardly hard news with obvious political or econ or foreign relations or other hot-button issue hard relevance, if I were you I’d point out my caveats and let it go, not make a lecture out of it, calling people out.
Just my thinking and my take - think what you like, do as you please. I think you’d get a better response if you dialed it back a bit. It often seems to feel like an attempt at a corrective lecture, the intensity of which seems mystifying given the weight of the provocation. Over-responding can kill an argument quickly, unless the originator is a media master. People look at what feels like an over-response and start asking “what’s the real problem here?” (And that’s a legit and logical reaction under some circumstances, to some arguments.)
Yes, the majority of people who post frequently and write well here are center to progressive, or they’re neither, but they don’t like Trump. And for we who don’t like Trump, having someone like that, with his known shortcomings, in the White House is more than a bit scary and depressing at times. And yes, there is some growling and growsing, and some humor and some throwaway cheap shots, like you’d expect in a casual conversation among friends. So what? Is that a big deal; as long as we don’t behave insultingly toward others without some clear provocation? Not everything needs to be a formal debate.
that’s the known audience, and we are, whatever our politics, which vary, mostly your damned friends. Every good communicator tailors the choice of words and phrasing and tone toward what is likely to be effective with a given audience.
You clearly have interesting thoughts and write fairly well. No one wants you to not speak your thoughts. I would have you, were it up to me, just speak to us as though you know we are actually your friends, and not the an audience to be hit on the head with thought hammers, whether or not we agree on politics; and not caught out in errors and then pummeled for them.
@OldCatLady I don’t think Trump is prepared for the level of scrutiny he’s in for over the next four years. He’s been in the public eye, but he’s been a private businessman, free to act as he chose. As president he has, to some extent, become the property of the American people. This is true of everyone in Public Service, you give up some of your freedoms to serve, and none more so than the President. I just don’t think Trump gets that, he has no idea how to control his body language and facial expressions or to pretend to be listening when someone else is speaking. You don’t have to be a trained expert to see his grimaces and fretting when he’s not in the spotlight, his tension and lack of cordiality when interacting with others. I don’t feel sorry for him at all, though, this is what he wanted. If he didn’t understand its nature that’s on him. But I do feel sorry for his family, as I feel sorry for anybody when someone else’s political aspirations drag them into the spotlight to be flayed by the public and press.
I keep hoping that reasoned, critical, “objective” (insofar as we can achieve such), non-knee-jerk responses by the vast majority of all voters in all areas will become the norm.
And that voters will demand far more of their various news-sources and start rejecting political-bias buzzwords and labels as an automatic response to hearing them. And I hope we rise above “post-truth”.
@jbartus you do not have to be pro-liberal to be anti Trump. Those are two different concepts. You can be anti Trump because he lies, rips off contractors, appears to have no ethics nor empathy, does not think before he speaks or tweets… Being against that says nothing about whether or not someone is fundamentally liberal, conservative or something in between.
A few moderately well-known European publications are expressing alarm. "From now on, the most powerful person on the planet, along with his entourage made up primarily of billionaires like himself, will be regularly stomping on that which the international community has spent decades negotiating with effort and care." http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/commentary-an-international-front-against-trump-a-1130905.html
@OldCatLady
Looks to be a good article. Haven’t done more than a quick skim yet.
Along with other more rational, considered, and serious measures, they need to bribe Trump with praise and apparent willingness to think he’s great and play into some of his ideas. Putin can manipulate him. Why not everyone?
@justbuyit it is unnecessary and unkind to call someone a douche because they don’t totally agree with your thoughts and perspectives. you all, are getting scarily intolerant. the everything you say you hate, the most in people ?? you are fast and surely becoming.
@mick - I didn’t call him a douche because he “doesn’t totally agree with my thoughts and perspectives”. The possibility that he may hold a contrary political perspective or subscribe to a differing ideology than that of myself or any others had absolutelynothing to do with the image I posted.
@mick - damn man you ain’t injured so it really begs the question as to why you seem to give so so so many giant fucks unless you are just so god damm dense that you can’t see that @jbartus was acting like a know it all douche and came back and posted in an emotionally charged subthread when he really should have made like Elsa in Frozen and just let it go - kind of like maybe what you should do now IMO.
He ain’t a bad guy by ANY means - this @jbartus guy - but he does come off sometimes as offputting and seriously it is plainly obvious from reading around here that the guy can fight his own fucking battles which it doesn’t to me even appear that there is one here. he ain’t saying shit, so why are you?
Who the fuck is acting like a little snowflake now, huh mick? It ain’t @jbartus - so maybe you might look in a mirror.
And b4 u get your frilly pretty pink panties all up in a bunch about the fact I don’t have anything to do with it either - you are correct! i don’t - anymore than you do.
Seriously STFU and stop keeping shit boiling over - if you can’t see how a little bit of criticism was warranted to him in this instance up there than you really don’t have any empathy or couth yourself or even the ability to read and comprehend on a emotional third grade level.
@mick while I appreciate the support @mehtherfucker is correct, if there was a battle I cared about fighting I’d be fighting it myself. Once people start resorting to just posting images and/or name calling any chance at a meaningful conversation has been lost.
If justbuyit wants to think I’m a douche that’s their prerogative, it became apparent that no matter what I said I was just spinning my wheels without getting anywhere useful so I dropped the subject.
Honestly I just wish people would keep politics off of Meh in its entirety or, if they absolutely must discuss politics, keep it to a single thread. Sadly this shit has been rearing its ugly head in thread after thread after thread. What can you do?
@mick just to clarify when I said @mehtherfucker was correct I meant up to the point where I agree I can fight my own battles. The rest was all unnecessary garbage name calling and such that I neither agree with nor endorse.
@jbartus i knew what you meant. i wasn’t champion (you) per se. every meh contributor should be free to voice their opinions in a respectful way. with more dialogue perhaps??? not with just insults or belittlement.
@mick - wow. was established a while back that i am black so way to go with the racism (calling me boy in the way you did at the end with the elipses making damn sure to call attention to it) - really surprised you just didn’t flat out call me nigger. guess it was possible for me to think less of you
@justbuyit no? Unless I am much mistaken @mehtherfucker was not being sincere or serious in the least when they claimed racism and such, so in the interest of injecting levity I found what I thought to be a funny Spongebob version of the “Not sure if serious…” meme. Very different from posting such a thing in a serious manner in response to people who are posting long, thought out, serious posts.
@jbartus Yeah it is so nothing like the know it all and assumptive shit that got you called a douche in the first place. The more I read your posts outside of one or two threads where you are actually fairly damn cool the more I realize that 90% of the deal with you has to be a combination of an issue of youth (immaturity) combined with a propensity to put wikipedia and a couple of other sources into your own words as it fits what you believe your intended meaning should be. Not to say you don’t have an original thought, you do, but most the time it ain’t, IMO.
@justbuyit hey you’re entitled to your own opinion, you’re also entitled to be wrong, and I’ll defend to the death your right to both. If I’m wrong and @mehtherfucker was being serious about claiming racism then you’re right the image was misplaced. That said I think you’re just upset I didn’t give you the attention you wanted from your image and now you’re lashing out. Reply to this as you wish, I won’t be.
@jbartus I’m fairly certain he or she is black. I’m not lashing out at you, I don’t ever say anything - or type it for that matter - because I’m looking for attention. You don’t respond when people tell you politely that you’re coming off as a know it all, thought maybe the image I posted would maybe get you to stop and think for a sec about how you may be perceived by others here especially as you seem to have an investment in the relationships and discussions here overall. IMO it just goes towards the immaturity I see in you. I really bet that in 10 years you’ll be a much better conversationalist - and for all of the pleading around here for people to just listen you certainly don’t seem to get the point a lot of times when it is critical of you.
Just don’t be a douche. You don’t have to be. And you’re better when you’re not.
@justbuyit I was thinking about this “douche” thing. (Not singling you out, but I was thinking about it, who knows why some of the things that pop into our heads, pop into our heads, even explained it to my ever patient husband last night and you bringing it up gives me the opportunity to throw in my two cents about the word “douche”.)
The first definition of douche is a “shower of water”. Now, that makes me think of something clean and refreshing.
When did it become derogatory, as in the second definition (looking at Google). “An obnoxious or contemptible person, usually used of a man”. Is it because douching is a girl thing?
I dunno, just thinking about it.
Calling someone a colostomy bag would make more sense.
Swear words are an indelible part of any dialect, and no discussion of spoken English would be complete without their mention. Which brings us to today’s topic, the meteoric rise of the American English epithet “douchebag.”
31st Century-anthropologists, bereft of the electronic media now at our disposal, might be flummoxed as to how douche, a word meaning “shower” in French, came to mean something along the lines of “pompous jerk.” So it helps to look at the origins of douchebag (or douche), from this Wikipedia entry:
A douche ( /ˈduːʃ/) is a device used to introduce a stream of water into the body for medical or hygienic reasons, or the stream of water itself.
To make this more explicit, a douchebag is part of an apparatus used to clean certain bodily orifices. A douche bag, technically speaking, is what contains the refuse created as a by-product of this cleansing process. Ick.
I must admit that douchebag (as an insult applied to people) didn’t enter my lexicon until the 2000’s. For many years, in fact, I assumed that the term was a 21st-Century coinage. After doing several searches using Google Books, however, it’s clear this isn’t the case. The first usage of douchebag/douche bag that I could find in the pejorative sense dates back to at least 1951, in the classic novel From Here to Eternity (here an adjective):
“The trouble with you, Pete,” the voice that did not seem to come with him but from that cigaret said savagely, “is that you can’t see further than that douchebag nose of yours.”
So douchebag seems to have been used in a vulgar context as far back as World War II or thereabouts. It’s worth noting, however, that this is the ONLY usage of the type found in 1950’s literature: all other examples of douchebag/douche bag refer to medicine or hygiene. I doubt the term was in popular currency at the time.
The next such usage doesn’t appear until 1964, in a stream-of-consciousness passage of another famous novel, Hubert Selby’s Last Exit to Brooklyn:
“…and she yelled to Jack to comeon and she/d fuckin blind not like that fuckin douchebag he was with and someone yelled we/re coming and she was dragged down the steps …”
Still, examples of the pejorative douchebag in the 1960s are few and far between. And seeing as that decade was famed for its relaxation of literary puritanism, I’d hazard to guess it was still uncommon.
It was only in the following three decades that douchebag seemed to make some headway. There are about a dozen examples of the word being used pejoratively in literature between 1970-1980. In the 80s, this increases to several dozen.* And by the 1990s, this skyrockets to somewhere between 100-200.
But it’s really the 2000s where we see “douchebag” take off. Google books records the word being used 868 times, the overwhelming majority of which appear to be non-medical. This was truly the decade of the “douchebag.”
If douchebag appeared to be an epithet dating back to at least the 1950s, why did it not become as popular until the 21st Century? My personal theory relates to the fact that douching (the act of cleaning bodily orifices with a stream of water) has become steadily less popular as a hygienic technique over the past fifty years. This is likely a result of medical warnings such as this (from the 2005 health book What Women Need to Know):
At one time, doctors routinely instructed their female patients to douche; however, that is no longer the case. Studies have shown that there is a higher rate of infection of the reproductive tract among women who douche that among women who do not.
So let’s put the pieces together. In 1960, when douching was a much more common practice and perhaps more prominent in the public imagination, douchebag would have had a much more disgusting connotation, and likely would have been avoided for this reason. But in the 21st-Century, at a time when many people barely remember what douching was to begin with, it might be taken as a less offensive insult.
One interesting pop cultural example is that douche and douchebag appears in the novelization of “ET: The Extra-terrestrial.” I can’t recall if the word is used in the film or not.
This is informal; just my take:
I don’t recall that the idea of female douching was considered disgusting in the 1960’s. Unless the person who might be using this procedure was consider physically somewhat disgusting.
It was considered a kind of “private” word you only used in conversation with close friends and in certain circumstances, but the word as applied to the activity was not pejorative. Products for this were advertised on TV on prime time hits. The products had assorted scents and came in various colors. The ad copy usually referenced being extra-clean. I think most people thought that women who practiced this were likely quite pleasant to be around, the practice was not assumed to be secretly “dirty” in some way.
Your literary journey thru the history of the pejorative use of “douche” and “douchebag” is interesting, but it doesn’t cover the spoken uses. I am pretty sure I was familiar with the terms as insults in conversation in the early 1970’s. Not uncommon.
Not certainly this still applies in 2017 - but in the beginning, the insulting uses were directed almost exclusively at males. A female who douched was still seen as someone who cared about grooming, tho most females did not douche, AFAIK, and they were not thought of as being “less clean”.
The use of a word often associated with female life or female body parts (that most males aren’t quite comfortable thinking about non-sexually) as applied to a male is the original source of the “insult factor”. This is true of many insults. Telling a female that she wears “pink panties” is hardly an insult and might well offered as a compliment or an unwanted bid for sexual attention. Same with other perceived terms that might be a normal part of female life in that era - such as wearing an apron. Whereas, telling a male he’s wearing pink panties or an apron (non-BBQ) in a non-humorous or contentious or pile-on competitive conversation is clearly an insult, directed often at perceived masculinity, and sometimes a serious insult.
And of course the other, non-female-specific medical uses of douching and the term “douchebag” hardly refer to pleasant practices. Most people don’t want to be around for that. So another source of insult emphasis.
Nowadays douching is still practiced medically. But it’s not practiced - or only rarely practiced - anymore by fastidious females who are highly susceptible to certain forms of advertising.
Since the medical use of these terms is uncommon outside medical settings, and since we love to swear and many of us love to insult in this decade; and since some people still seem to love to throw “female” words at males thinking it’s a strong and degrading form of insult (my reaction is usually that the person who makes such an insult is temporarily extra-lame), the terms “douche” and “douchebag” are now understood outside medical setting to be almost exclusively an insult, of the sort of the insulting party hope is unanswerable. and the insults appear to be applied across as gender lines.
@mehtherfucker no racism, in my comment. i didn’t know you were black. just like you didn’t know, i’m an old lady granny. i did feel, your original comment was aggressively, overly mean. nothing more to it than that.
@caffeine_dude ‘…but we have a serious problem in this country of lazy citizenry who are willing to accept anything that is said practically anywhere so long as what is said aligns with their personal beliefs about an issue…’ I am shocked, shocked that this image is accepted without question. It’s clearly retouched, because there is NO ORANGE. Where is the outrage?
@RiotDemon I’ve seen their Walking Dead and some other show parodies. Their stuff would be funnier if it didn’t careen off into the bushes narratively. But when it’s on track it’s pretty funny. The voice actor for Trump sounds quite like him.
@RiotDemon Why, oh why didn’t they hack the actual inauguration sound system and put this in? Sooner or later someone is going to manage it. I’m not sure, though, how we will tell the difference between hacked voices and the actual verbiage. Both dart around wildly, leaving listeners to say ‘Did he really just say that?’
@OldCatLady But the pacing does. The lip flaps wouldn’t match, it would be like watching a badly dubbed kick flick. Also, they base much of the dialogue on facial expressions and body language, which to me is what makes it most amusing. Often their dialogue is much more in keeping with the body language and facial expressions than what was actually said, which makes the voice over feel like it speaks what they were actually thinking.
@conandlibrarian If you want it to stop, don’t post on it and bump it to the top. There’s no need to artificially silence it, if you don’t want to read it, don’t. I skip probably 75% of forum threads as they are on subjects of no interest to me. When everyone loses interest it will naturally disappear.
Trump is kicking so much ass already. So hype for the Supreme Court nominee in one week’s time! Keystone Pipeline is back on! The wall is gonna be built! He’s really getting this shit done!
@dashcloud The Wall is profoundly stupid, wasteful, ineffective, ugly and damaging. The part of it that’s built so far. It was a bad idea and it didn’t work, so we’re going to triple the investment.
@moondrake The other problem with the wall is it will affect the natural travel of animals. They will be blocked and if they migrate back and forth across the border they will no longer be able to do that. I’d bet there is going to be a fairly large ‘unintended’ consequence for wildlife - and likely dump doesn’t care either.
The Doomsday clock just advanced- It’s now only 2½ minutes to midnight, “the closest the clock has been to Doomsday since 1953, after the United States tested its first thermonuclear device, followed months later by the Soviet Union’s hydrogen bomb test.”
“Never before has the Bulletin decided to advance the clock largely because of the statements of a single person. But when that person is the new president of the United States, his words matter.”
@Pantheist - I was under the impression that the Post had a conservative bent, but have changed my opinion. I believe it is fair and accurate. Did you feel they manipulated the facts here?
Seems to be the case these days that most people choose the news they agree with the most. I’m partly guilty, but I really feel outlets like NPR and MSNBC are smarter and more honest than fox and breitbart. We recently had this discussion in another thread.
@KDemo I couldn’t actually read the article since I’m not registered with them, but I know my employer ranks them as a medium bias. Reuters I have as little to no bias. If the articles are similar, than I’d say that the wapo article is fine.
@unixrab - I so do not want to invoke your wrath, but it’s really not going to be okay. Millions will be negatively affected, starting with losing health care. Moot point, I guess, when threatened with nuclear annihilation.
You will not invoke my wrath…with civility like that! But — I realize you are truly afraid… Let me reassure you… It will be OK… We’ve been here before and the fear was unfounded. If (and let’s put a bookmark here so we can check back from time to time) things go sideways I’ll admit it and apologize but… Things are gonna be just fine… I know this for sure and I predicted the election in June of 2015 AND the electoral college (I predicted 309T-231C).(AND WON 5 bottles of bourbon (the good stuff))… Rest & rest assured!
@unixrab So, medicare will not be privatized, social security won’t be gutted, my friends from the south (Mexico) will still be welcome here, my friend who’s husband works for the federal prison system will not lose his pension when it’s time for him to retire (2 years).
We won’t lose our health insurance and the rates won’t skyrocket. Clean energy will still be a thing and the air will still be breathable without a mask.
@unixrab@lisaviolet@pantheist
Having lived through (and remembering) the Cuban Missle Crisis, the Kennedy assassinations, race riots in Watts and Detroit, Viet Nam, the MLK assassination, Nixon resigning, Clinton Impeachment, and my favorite the 60’s I know we will be just fine. Each one of these events was a sign of the Apocalypse and an end of the world as we knew it. But the sun still rose in the east and set in the wet, dogs and children still ran up to be petted and hugged, and we still had to pay taxes.
The US is incredibly resilient and mostly improves over time if you take the very long view. The odds of everything going to hell in an unrecoverable way appear not to be large at this moment.
Otoh all of those critical moments in the past could have gone in much worse directions than they did. Each one was a genuine and enormous time of risk that could have gone very badly. We are lucky, I suppose, that those times weren’t worse and that most of us recovered.
The face that we have survived terrible things in the past, or that someone correctly predicted something or other, have only limited weight, or none, regarding the future. The strength of Americans and of our best institutions are what give us resilience. And those are substantial.
They are not, however, sufficient to make our survival and prosperity as a decent and good nation a sure thing. During bad times, many have suffered terribly and lost much, even if the nation as a whole prospered and thrived then or later on.
And in a nuclear age, esp w a president of questionable judgement, and N Korea, and other hotspots in the mix, nothing is guaranteed. Things might possibly go quite badly in ways that take long to recover from. Many people may be badly hurt, in ways that are unrecoverable for them, even if many prosper then or later on. And things might possibly go very, very badly, even if the odds of that appear not large at the moment.
Past survival and success, and the strength and resilience of people and institutions give us much reason to hope. But they are not sufficient to make survival and success certain.
Earlier in this thread @janas posted a list that attempted to explain why President Trump won. My take on it was that she was a person giving her reasons for voting as she did. The personal reasons someone has that resulted in their vote for Trump or Clinton or Kaptain Kangaroo is something they know and is not really something to be debated. But if the best response to those reasons is pointing out a spelling or grammar error than you are making her point for her. We as a society have gotten so PC correct we have forgotten how to listen. We have forgotten how to have a dialog with someone who doesn’t necessarily agree with us. Here is someone who I think gets it. Trigger Alert: Not President Trump Friendly. This video has 108 million views on Viral Thread.
And now a plea to those leaning both right and left.
People, stop pointing fingers. Stop with the name calling. Start listening. Try to understand the motives behind decisions made. If you just ridicule and belittle that person they will just shake their head and walk away; you will have achieved nothing but a false sense of superiority.
If you think it’s broke work to fix it. BTW: Smashing windows, burning limos, and marching around dressed as female body parts while demanding to not be judged based on those body parts won’t fix anything. Those actions are actually counter-productive. They may make you feel good but you won’t change anyone’s else’s opinions.
[edit] added the last sentence.
@Mehrocco_Mole A hat that when pulled down and makes you look like you have cat’s ears is a “female body part”? I’ve had a hat like this for years, long before this election. I most certainly don’t look at any one of my cats and think “vagina”.
Wearing the hat in the march was a reference to Trump “grab her by the pussy”. A cat is also referred to as a pussy cat. And that is not an alternative fact.
@Mehrocco_Mole I’m seeing it now, on the tablet. It doesn’t really bother me. In all honesty, swastikas, SS symbols, white hoods and robes are much more disturbing to me.
@Mehrocco_Mole Can’t enter the mindset. It’s like saying, one day I hope men have the same rights as cars, and then listing a bunch of rules that cars must observe that are entirely unapplicable to humans.
@Mehrocco_Mole But not everyone finds humor in the same thing. It doesn’t have anything to do with political correctness. I don’t love Lucy. I never have. I don’t like Kathy Griffen. I didn’t like Joan Rivers. PC certainly doesn’t enter in to it, I just don’t find them funny.
And telling me what is funny is kind of condescending.
@Mehrocco_Mole I wasn’t offended, I’m not poo-pooing on someone else’s sense of humor, I literally don’t get it. It’s a complete nonsequitur to me. It could be written in Greek and would make exactly as much sense to me.
@moondrake@lisaviolet
And you guys have totally missed the point I have been trying to convey.
…or you’re just being silly. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
followed up with
And telling me what is funny is kind of condescending.
I did not TELL you what was funny. You state there’s nothing wrong with being silly [humor] and then belittle my sense of humor. If you do not see the humor than please tell me what rights does a gun have that a woman does not? That is a dialog. point counterpoint.
Again, you guys are making my point for me. I am no better than you and you are no better than me. I have a voice and opinions just the same as you. If you belittle my opinions because they don’t match yours than that will serve to make mine stronger to me and that is counter to what you should be doing. One of the reasons HClinton lost is because she didn’t listen to BClinton. He told her and her team they were ignoring the working class Americans in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania…etc. but they poo-pooed him. The results are very apparent.
I am really trying to help here. In four years if you still want a different President you all need to stop being so high and mighty and LISTEN to people.
A true salesman loves to hear the word no because that tells them where they need to concentrate to close the deal. If you want to change someone’s opinion you need to hear the NOs.
@MrMark I could try, but I doubt I could explain it to you so that you understood it the way I do.
Short answer? No.
And don’t get me wrong. Someone can spend hours explaining how bluetooth works or electricity works and I’ll just sit there with my mouth hanging open. Some concepts I fail to grasp and I know it. I try to understand, but it just never sinks in.
@Mehrocco_Mole “If you do not see the humor than please tell me what rights does a gun have that a woman does not? That is a dialog. point counterpoint.” Okay, so now that you’ve sort of explained, I guess the joke is supposed to be that a woman has more rights than a gun? I’m not sure why that’s supposed to be funny. Citizen’s United has muddied the waters on the topic, but AFAIK, objects don’t have rights. Every human being (and every living thing) on Earth should have more rights than a gun. But since you requested point and counter point, then here are a few things a gun can do that a woman cannot. A gun can fit in a stylish purse or shoulder holster, but not a woman. A well cared for gun is to all intents and purposes eternal, a woman is not. A gun can kill someone and is not subject to punishment under the law. A gun can be thrown at someone or used to pummel them, women are inconvenient for that purpose. It’s all kind of a stretch, but there are thousands of purposes for which a 2-5 lb steel object can be used but not a flesh and blood human being. But none of them have anything to do with contrasting rights.
And now a plea to those leaning both right and left.
People, stop pointing fingers. Stop with the name calling. Start listening. Try to understand the motives behind decisions made. If you just ridicule and belittle that person they will just shake their head and walk away; you will have achieved nothing but a false sense of superiority.
So far so good.
If you think it’s broke work to fix it. BTW: Smashing windows, burning limos, and marching around dressed as female body parts while demanding to not be judged based on those body parts won’t fix anything. Those actions are actually counter-productive. They may make you feel good but you won’t change anyone’s else’s opinions.
You are aware that only a tiny tiny tiny percentage of those who dislike Trump did any of those things, right? And most of those actions are not destructive.
I strongly condemn the destructive ones. The other actions you mention are certainly off-putting to some. And may or may not be counterproductive over time, as many “outrageous” peaceful protests have yielded results over time. And many have not. The future is a hard thing to predict with precision.
And your recommendations seem a bit one-sided, in the sense of being directed, as far as I am aware, at no actions undertaken by those here, but definitely directed only at the more visibly extreme who dislike Trump.
I live in a sea of red and many of them voted for Trump. Of the ones I have spoken to so far, all of them voted for him in spite of his worse qualities, not because of them. But I haven’t spoken to anyone who voted for him in the primaries. Don’t know about that.
I completely agree that the Democrat “coastal elites” leadership got completely oversold on its own POV’s in this election, and failed to listen to blue-collar workers.
And now we have a new era, and you are right: it’s time to take a deep breath or a few, get past the emotions if we can, figure out where we are, and go forward.
Everyone has missed the whole point of the Trump presidency. Melania and Ivanka. Enough said. Seriously who hasn’t {walked} to that (women included). If the shit is out of your control what’s the point of bitching about it - because it won’t fucking change anything. The fucking election is over - get the fuck over it. I just know, as a proud citizen of this country, I’d prefer seeing Ivanka and Melania than that nasty {intelligent} Hilliary. I mean really- people that argue politics crack me the fuck up, because no matter what your opinion it has no impact. Whoever is in power wields control and will do whatever the fuck they want good or bad. Your vote is your voice, if you don’t like what happen, then pack your shit and leave- otherwise deal with it and shut the fuck up. Concentrate on more pressing matters like figuring out what {shiny} Ivanka is, or what {mixing bowl} you plan on using, or if Melania has ever taken {the skunk to the Eiffel Tower}- do something constructive and fill up your {trunk} rather than worring about things that are out of your control.
@gak0090 OK so I hope you are trying to be funny here… but how about not turning this into a middle school boy’s locker room please. The personal attacks between several forum members is bad enough without throwing in this type of stuff in here too.
@Kidsandliz Oh - I’m sorry did I offend you? Are you a self-appointed moderator? And do you enjoy spending time in a middle school boy’s locker room- if so, you should really get some help.
@gak0090 Nope don’t hang out in locker rooms but did work with kids where many a night was spent camping and kids that age sort of forget that tent walls do not block others from hearing their conversations. The best was when they’d be plotting how to run away from the program (court appointed adjudicated youth outdoor adventure program - they were sentenced to participate) and then wonder how the staff found out about it. LOL
@lisaviolet Yeah ask thumperchick to intervene to delete my thread. Because there is no chance in hell that you would be able to compete with me on any level regarding anything.
@lisaviolet read back my post very carefully. The intent of my post was to make clear that regardless of what people or feel after the election it does not matter. How you feel about policy DOES NOT MATTER because it will never have impact on anyones administration. Bitching about stuff will not affect anything- so why waste the time and effort bitching about things beyond your control? Spend your efforts on things that you believe in that will actually have the potential to make impact in some useful way. Then my other points were Ivanka and Melania are smoking hot and I like to masturbate- so what’s wrong with that? I’m not insulting anyone, and I guarantee a majority feel the same way I do.
@gak0090 The reason for asking @Thumperchick to intervene is simply because what you posted is completely ignorant, crude and inappropriate. Might be best to just keep quiet for a bit…
@gak0090 Don’t be sorry, you didn’t have to ask for it. I’m giving it of my own volition. That’s what makes this an open forum page. However, there are rules that apply to all of us. Maybe you should revisit them. Pay specific attention to H and I. Or maybe just I since that’s the one you’ve violated prodigiously. https://meh.com/forum/topics/our-forum-rules-no-bullshit
Glad to see the original post was cleaned up @thumperchick. Of course now some of the responses make less sense but better that than what was there to begin with. : )
As a long time member of the meh community (927 days) I am disturbed at how this thread is starting to have portions with name calling and personal attacks. In the past we have been able to disagree with each other without being nasty to the person we disagree with… a norm this community has had that I have appreciated. Perhaps people can self edit when they post in this respect? And if someone starts to engage in this kind of behavior then just ignore that post? Those kinds of posts say more about the poster than the person they are attacking anyway.
@Kidsandliz If you don’t like the posts then don’t engage- no one is forcing you to. This forum is full of sarcasm, adult humor (at least to some) - if you can’t take it leave. This is one of the few places I enjoy posting because it has the freedom of posting whatever is on your mind without the consequence of censorship. Please don’t fuck that up.
@gak0090 Actually they have removed a few posts on (a rare) occasion and locked a few (again very rarely) threads. There was a conversation once where snapster said that porn, soft porn, sexually explicit stuff wasn’t appropriate on this forum and your post was, in my opinion, sexually explicit beyond the usual innuendo that goes on here. There is a difference, in my opinion, between humor and some of what has been said on this thread. Also since you enjoy this forum you may have also noticed that personal attacks, posts where people are being nasty to others, etc. are very rare here and the norm is not to do that - this particular thread seems to be an unfortunate exception with respect to what a couple of people are posting.
@Kidsandliz You yourself refer to the current president as “the dump” a number of times. Name calling is insulting regardless if the person is here to read it or not.
@Kidsandliz Of course not. Never said it did. I was agreeing with you overall, but adding that insulting people that are not present is not something that should be done either. What is the benefit of calling him “the dump” as opposed to using his real name?
@Kidsandliz Originally Meh was promoting lack of censorship, if that policy has changed, or now has various amendments - then I am truly in the wrong place and will move on. As far as personal attacks, I attack no one who does not attack me first. Retribution is fair play.
@gak0090 When I think of censorship in the context of a forum like this, I think more of thunderthighs on woot deleting posts that she doesn’t like or other mods removing things that are fine, but don’t paint woot/product being sold in a flattering light. In a less annoying but still present way, profanity filters count too.
What I think@kidsandliz is going for here is more of a request for civility, not actual censorship. She’s just another forum user like you or me, so of course you’re free to ignore her. Why not do your best to be civil though? It’s a big enough sandbox for everybody.
@Pantheist well said. But if she would have taken your advice and ignored me in the first place then this would not even be an issue. We all have the ability to decide what we will respond to. Ignoring a post is the ideal response if you’re in disagreement. The reason being is that eventually it dies it’s own death. The logic may seem counterintuitive but you can see by what I’ve done here that I have successfully advanced my own agenda. I actually had a valid point in my original post explaining that it doesn’t matter what you think or how you feel regardless of what political background you have- it won’t change anything. So use your energy for more useful things that may impact something. Here is where I use the adult analogy of mastur… as a sort of sarcasm.
@gak0090 Yeah I gotcha. I saw what you were originally going for. It wasn’t really my taste, which is why I personally wasn’t about to get involved, but some people are touchier about that sort of thing than me. Hard to blame someone for responding negatively to something that she feels strongly about.
I’ve been backing off this thread in general because while I do believe political dissent can make a difference, no one’s mind is getting changed because of a thread on meh. Just felt the need to chime in because I do feel strongly about censorship, and I don’t think it’s much of an issue here.
@Pantheist I’m all about shock and awe. Yes some people get offended- but seriously with all the things truly offensive going on in the world - I think my rhetoric should be the least of people’s worries. I am a polarizing person, some people actually like me most people probably don’t. I don’t have a problem with that, I prefer it. I’m rude and obnoxious and I love showing that side on posts. People need to lighten up a bit sometimes. When I saw Dizavid started this post, I was under the impression that this would be a pretty fun thread (considering the shit that Dizavid posts). Maybe there should be certain topics that don’t have any boundaries for posters like myself and Dizavid, that can be a rude, politically incorrect and disgusting as possible. That’s my “creative” outlet- can’t really do that kind of shit at work. Maybe I’ll start a topic like that.
@Kidsandliz My experience is that when there is discussion on Trump, it often turns nasty. My own kids can’t discuss their views without overstepping the manners I tried to teach them.
@Panatheist@gak0090 I missed that it was supposed to be a crude joke. Rather it came across to me as incredibly gutter level gross and disgusting. But then again I don’t find humor in sexually explicit, sexist jokes (against either sex).
@Pantheist But when that happens, don’t you love to deadpan and say “I don’t get it”? And then the person who originally said the joke has to explain the humor in it and it becomes less and less funny with each time they try to explain it?
Unless the joke just gets funnier and funnier to them each time they try to explain and you end up walking away and they’re on the floor, laughing so hard they can’t catch their breath.
@lisaviolet With the “I don’t get it” response I usually go with: I could try and explain the joke, but I doubt I could explain it to you so that you understood it.
@gak0090 Yup, if that’s what your goal was I’d say you were successful. 14 new comments in this topic in the last hourish, all involving you/shit you said.
Caught this on the news yesterday. Reporter (who happens to be my next door neighbor) was talking about the protesters in Philly while Cheeto was in town. Sign is somewhat difficult to read but says: ALTERNATIVE FACT: Nobody is here protesting right now. It took me a moment to notice it before I almost rolled off my couch laughing.
@cinoclav There was a tweet that showed up that said something to the effect that Trump made history as the person having the largest crowd of women, ever, to protest against him. I will have to see if I can find that tweet again. : )
@moondrake I disagree. Building the wall should be pretty straight forward. I should have been clearer in my previous post; kindly replace ‘flush’ with ‘correct the mistakes of’, thanks.
@eq52515 The wall is a huge waste of money and it does not work. I live only a couple of miles from the big part of the existing wall and it has not stopped illegal border crossings. The border is riddled with tunnels. The border is 1,989 miles long. Figuring three shifts that gives us about 1 border patrol agent per mile, or 2 per two miles as they work in pairs. Doesn’t sound too bad if you are unfamiliar with how formidable much of the terrain is. But quite a lot of it is impassable by ground vehicle.
Trump’s already ordered the hiring of 10,000 more federal immigration agents and 5,000 Border Patrol agents. $10-20 billion to build the fence, annual maintenance of $700 million.
If Trump adds 10,000 additional ICE agents, it could mean a further $3.9 billion each year. DHS requested $3.1 billion for roughly 8,000 enforcement and removal agents in fiscal year 2017. The addition of 5,000 Border Patrol agents would tack $900 million annually onto the bill, based on the $3.8 billion DHS requested for 21,070 agents in fiscal-year 2017. Please explain to me how this fits the Republican ideal of shrinking government.
Lastly, we are great at building things and terrible at maintaining them. Just look at our decaying bridges and dams. Much of the existing fence is already in disrepair. The desert is a harsh environment, the sun and wind do a lot of damage if you don’t stay on top of things. How long will we maintain the new fence before it becomes uninteresting and Congress leaves it to rot?
@moondrake - Exactly! Add up all those expenses and figure how many schools could be built and teachers hired; how many hospitals could be constructed; how many existing roads and bridges could be repaired and maintained, and how many jobs that would create.
There are so many preferable ways to make this country better, instead of building a wall to block an already small and declining number of people coming across the border.
Also, instead of raising tariffs on Mexico, why not lower them? More jobs and a healthier economy there would decrease motivation for coming here.
@KDemo I’ve said for a long time that there are only two ways of actually halting illegal immigration from Mexico. 1. Help Mexico become a better place to live. 2. Make the US a worse place to live. It seems that we are getting #2. To those who growl at the idea of helping Mexico I say: You don’t quibble over the price of water when your neighbor’s house is on fire.
Currently the Mexican farmworkers get $20 a day. They are typically picked up for work 6 days a week at our migrant farmworkers’ center at 4 am to be driven to the fields, mostly in NM and work about 10 hours, and are dropped off at about 5pm. That’s $2 an hour with no benefits and protections. If there were a practical method to close our border, I am genuinely scared what the prices at the supermarket would look like if we paid American farmworkers minimum wage, worked them only 40 hours a week, if the farms had to pay taxes for them, and meet safety requirements.
@moondrake That was always the goal. The Kochs of this country have been trying to deflate the dollar and thusly your wages since the mid 70’s after Nam. The made their bucks put it into real assets and decided mercian companies needed to compete with the 3rd world on an even basis which means a return to pre WW2.
The people who want to build a wall between the United States and Mexico can’t figure out how to turn on the lights at the White House, according to the New York Times.
"Aides confer in the dark because they cannot figure out how to operate the light switches in the cabinet room, the Times reported Sunday. “Visitors conclude their meetings and then wander around, testing doorknobs until finding one that leads to an exit.”
While some might consider “wandering around in the dark” an apt metaphor for the new administration, the inability of President Donald J. Trump’s team to operate light switches strains belief.
I can’t tell if you believe the things you say or if you’re just a well-done parody.
I sincerely hope that what I expect to happen to the country under Trump doesn’t occur. I hope we are all wrong and he does good things for the country. I am sceptical but would be happy to be wrong.
@CaptAmehrican I’d also be happy to be wrong unfortunately I suspect a lot of us who did not vote for the dump are going to be collateral damage with actions that, unfortunately, will not affect those who are now making the rules.
@CaptAmehrican I think he’s going to do just fine and he’s going to restore us fiscally for sure. A bunch of Chicken Little’s running around.
@CaptAmehrican
His actions on his first full day in office did him no credit.
@f00l
@KDemo Is this a static picture, because the number never changes.
@Kidsandliz I think his base supporters will do much worse. I know people that hate him but voted for him because they are “republican”, they will do the best under Trump.
@KDemo We’re still at zero. Something tells me we’re gonna be at zero for a loooooong ass time.
@justbuyit - Seems restraint and intelligence don’t stand a chance.
@CaptAmehrican we must all meet back here in 4 - apologies must be made, wrongs must be admitted (assuming @jont doesn’t bankrupt the place)
you know if you rearrange the letters of president trump, you get ‘tense primp turd’, right?
@carl669 only if you rearrange them in that specific order.
@pfarro1
Right. Only if.
Really looking forward to the anime thing.
@darksaber99999 Depends on the anime.
@darksaber99999 Tentacles for everyone!
Oh boy!
@Moose Best tweet ever.
@lisaviolet How fucking DARE YOU reply to me this way with my favorite show? Fuck off. Don Draper would have voted for Trump.
@Dizavid Do you really think I give a shit what you think?
Don Draper isn’t real, you fuckwit.
@lisaviolet
Something isn’t real anyway …
@lisaviolet
/image shut up liver, you’re fine
Buckle up, it’s gonna be a wild ride.
Thank you for everyone who voted HRC during the primaries, he couldnt’ve done it without you!
@DrunkCat Trump would have buried Sanders in his own bullshit.
@Dizavid You mad bro?
@Dizavid I think you’re mistaken. The thing Bernie has that neither Trump nor Clinton have is people’s respect.
@DrunkCat 2006 called, they want their meme back.
Also, no, I’m happy as FUCK, my President is Trump, my America’s great, I’mma watch that anime and masturbate.
@jbartus Not the same time or place, but Walter Mondale had people’s respect too.
I’m afraid The Donald would have roughed up BS just like he did the other Republican candidates during the primary debates…
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@Dizavid Don’t wake up your mom.
@Dizavid No wonder you’re so deluded as to think Bernie would’ve lost. It probably would’ve been the first time for the entire country to go ‘blue’.
@jbartus You forgot to add Sanders was a man of his word and he had a plan that was not a platitude. I tried going to my boss and asking for $1000 to “make work great again”, he wanted a plan.
@DrunkCat You’re delusional.
@lseeber I can’t hear you over the sound of a Trump presidency. (see: pied piper strategy)
@caffeine_dude I didn’t add it because I don’t agree. Sanders is no dummy, he knows that implementing many of the things he talked about would have required support on a level he couldn’t even count on from his own party never mind across the aisle. I respect him immensely for standing by his principles on issues rather than standing wherever the political winds blow him but at the end of the day he’s still a politician and there’s still a game that must be played if you want to get elected.
@jbartus
@DrunkCat
Sanders could not have been elected. Even if every idea he offered were made of solid gold.
Everyone who’s spent years in a red state knows that. Successfully label someone “socialist” or “former socialist” and that’s all the opposition needs. The election will not be about ideas or solutions, it will be about labeling and lies and distractions.
Sanders never faced serious negative campaigning. His internal polling was never subjected to serious independent scrutiny re methodology from the press and academia at large. The campaign would not have been pretty, and he could not have gotten the middle-America voters he needed to hear him out first before deciding. They don’t respond that way … yet.
Perhaps in 4-8 years. Not yet.
@f00l Dude, that argument is full of shit. You might as well be telling me Hillary had a 98% chance of winning.
No. Sanders would’ve been guaranteed the win. I mean, that argument literally falls apart at the slightest scrutiny. Just think about how every poll had him destroying Trump. You want to know why? Because those red states were opting for him over Trump. Which is why HRC lost, because without Sanders they defaulted back to Trump.
But hey, who am I to ruin what makes you sleep at night.
@f00l Let me put it in a way you might understand: Saying red states wouldn’t vote for Sanders because he’s socialist is like saying they wouldn’t vote for Trump because he’s deplorable. They didn’t vote for Trump because he was a bigot, they voted from him despite the fact. They don’t give a fuck as long as it’s not more of the same. That was literally it. The candidate could’ve been a cow bell and they would’ve choose it over any corporate politician, e.g. HRC.
@DrunkCat
Ok, you don’t live in my red state anyway. Yeah they wanted change. Not socialist change. Not even if it were logical. they would have voted for a dozen Hillarys before they would vote for Sanders
Think what you like. On this you’re wrong. I live in a region where the politicis are not to my taste, and I know them well. I know exactly why people here went for Trump. You are right about that, it was in spite of his many flaws, not because of them.
But by local standards, Sanders has a much bigger flaw. He can be painted with the word “socialist”. The minute they hear that their ears close. And after that they are inclined to believe everything Fox or some conservative site says about it.
Maybe in 4-8-12 years. Not yet.
If you believe that, either your info is from a tiny and unrepresentative pocket of the red areas, or you just flat out don’t understand them.
Or else you beoeve in polls that no academic polling expert took seriously. Sorry. I saw those pills too. So did every other polling expert. Even those experts who favored Sanders personally discounted those polls.
@f00l The country would’ve gone blue save for maybe a handful of red states. The idea the Sanders would’ve lost is the real delusion.
@DrunkCat
Ok whatever.
@f00l You argued against a reasonable x therefore y with anecdotal “i just know the lay of the land”. I dunno what you expected me to say. Especially when it’s pretty much solidified that Trump was essentially a protest vote. It’s not a minute or “gut feeling”, it’s just as the facts are presented. Trump won the populist vote, HRC handed him the victory and Sanders would’ve simply won. There’s a reason why Trump backed out on arguing with Sanders.
If you can’t see the parallels between “Trump won’t win because he’s a bigot” and “Sanders won’t win because he’s a socialist” then I don’t know what to tell you other than you probably voted for HRC.
@DrunkCat My opinion is that The Donald would have wiped the Electoral College floor with Bernie Sanders and won the popular vote by a large margin, too. BS isn’t nearly tough enough to withstand the hate that Drumpfins would have spewed on him.
No more delusional than your opinion.
@compunaut The problem with that opinion is the same problem with the opinion that water is dry. I’ve never once seen a single Trump support concede any good HRC has done. I’ve seen them not only concede points to Sanders but actually defend him.
@compunaut I have to disagree. As someone who voted against HRC I most certainly assure you that I would have lined up to vote for Bernie Sanders and many people I know would have as well. The DNC lost many supporters from my generation that I know to the Stein and Johnson campaigns and still more who decided to boycott the election because of the whole Bernie fiasco. I would have gladly voted for him over Trump.
@jbartus
Your take re Trump, Sanders, HRC, and other candidates is is prob pretty common on the coasts and in heavy tech or college/university areas. I doubt it’s nearly so common in flyover areas unless you are in a tech or college oasis.
People here seem to assume that self-labeling as “conservative” or “extreme conservative” implies automatic personal strength, righteousness, and moral virtue, even if such a person does not actually want the policies conservatives favor.
If you drive past polling places, every sign for a candidate - Republican, Democrat, or a non-party or alt party candidate for any office - is going to have the word “conservative” on the sign. Some Democrats’ central campaign message is that they are actually more conservative than their Republican opponent.
There are a few Congressional and local districts that deviate from this norm (carefully gerrymandered by the state legislature to minimize impact).
There are a few brave “death-wish candidates” who don’t enthusiastically march behind the “conservative” label and wind up losing by insane and nearly laughable margins.
In Nov-Dec 2012, in some counties, journalists trying to do political interviews could not find a single person who, even when promised anonymity, would admit to having voted for Obama.
@jbartus Bernie is the reason my husband walked away from the Republican party after 41 years.
My husband is really not religious (his dad was religious, his mother was not and it caused some major problems) and all of the Christian candidates made him really, really nervous. Then there was Trump and my husband has been self-employed since his teens (he’s 60 now). Small construction company and back in the 80s they did work for a big, huge company. Signed contract.
When the job was completed and the client was happy with the work, they said “okay, this is what we’re going to pay you”. Two hundred thousand LESS than the contract.
Lawyers were involved. The big company told the little company "hey, we have lawyers on staff; you don’t. You can take us to court and you’ll win.
But can you afford to be tied up in court for years? Because that’s what will happen."
Took what they offered. But it left a very bitter taste in his mouth. And when all of Trump’s shady dealings came out, sure, they were legal, but they were shady all the same, well, suffice it to say, Trump has never been considered a “good businessman” in this household. Because he hurt the small guy. And then the icing on the cake came out with all of his personality flaws. So, #NeverTrump.
Anyway, Sanders is the first time in our lives we’ve donated to any candidate. We voted for him in the primaries. We were really bummed when he didn’t win. We voted for Hillary because “NeverTrump”. He wasn’t a good guy for Joe Citizen as a business man, he wouldn’t be a good guy for Joe Citizen as president.
/giphy real anime
Anime is real.
America is great.
What leads anyone to believe that a new President and Congress can do any more damage than Previous Presidents and Congresses have done?
They’re just politicians all beholden only to their own particular donors and special interests. That hasn’t changed, unless you are one of the privileged few special interests. In that case, never fear. Everyone gets their chance to bitch eventually.
@2many2no thank you for so succinctly saying what I’ve wanted to every time someone has made a doom and gloom post.
@jbartus And yet, per protocol, I must blame you for not having said it sooner and better.
@2many2no except, per my mandate as Positivity Goat for January 2016 you must also express appreciation for the fact that at least some fraction of the population has the good sense not to go all melodramatic.
@jbartus I think it is very positive that most of us understand the importance of of what is going on today, and more significantly, we get the chance to do it all over again in a few short years. The times and places where that has ever occurred are far too few.
@2many2no I’m so putting this on my weblog.
http://www.270towin.com/2020-countdown-clock/
@2many2no @jbartus Trump administration has already started some troubling things with long-term consequences.
Putting climate change deniers in charge of environmental regulations could have lasting effects.
If he successfully repeals obamacare poor folk and people with pre-existing conditions go back to not being able to get insurance, and not everyone is great at skirting hospital bills (which passes a higher cost back to everyone else anyway).
Supreme court…
Pence is also a proponent of conversion therapy. Shocking that someone with beliefs like that could make it into the white house. I’m guessing (hoping) that the rest of the administration will hold him back on that one, but it’s still a valid reason for many people to be concerned.
@Pantheist I neither apologize for nor defend anything any of these people do. I’m just pointing out that they’re all politicians and it’s likely nothing good will come from that.
The nearly miraculous thing is the peaceful transition of power. That doesn’t mean I support a particular person. Actually I hope the structure and traditions of our government are strong enough to prevent them from doing too much damage.
Historically that has usually been the case. Whenever one person or group starts to run amok, Washington gridlock tends to rein them in.
@2many2no I hope you’re right
@Pantheist both parties install their own version extremists on the issues you’ve mentioned. The end result of this kind of transition is that it puts us on course in general towards a middle ground. Both parties suck but at least by having a changing of the guard every couple of terms we get to avoid having either one run riot over everything.
And seriously, whatever Pence wants to think is his business, homosexuality has become accepted by society at large, where is he going to get the congressional support to do anything meaningful? Progress on issues important to the LGBTQ community might slow down for the next four-to-eight years but it’s hardly like they’re going to be able to begin setting up concentration camps or something, the freaking out over this is really out of hand.
“carnage,” seriously?
@dizavid Anime is real- if you don’t believe, you haven’t seen Yuri on Ice then.
One presumes the OP is an example of both?
We need to make RWBY great again!
@spcial_snwflake It’s probably too late for RWBY, TBH. RIP, Monty, you tried.
He doesn’t like anime. He only likes computer-animated films.
@OldCatLady yeah, he definitely has to do a better job of vetting his speech writers. I thought after the RNC convention snafu that lesson would have been learned. Then again, I should have considered who we’re dealing with. As a [insert your own adjective here] man once said, 'fool me once, shame on…shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again."
@OldCatLady to be fair both examples were designed to be cliché inspirational speeches. It’s practically impossible to be original in any way
@OldCatLady
Make Movie Speeches Great Again.
@jbartus The problem with that is that he made a YUUUGE deal about how he was writing his own inauguration speech. The twitter photo he posted showed him with a closed Sharpie and a blank pad of paper.
@jbartus Disagree. That’s equivalent to saying it’s practically impossible to make any original music, or movies, or literature.
There is plenty of cliche, hackneyed attempts at producing music, movies, or literature (or speeches) - but not because quality is practically impossible. Sometimes there’s laziness, or ineptitude, or lack of inspiration (or all three). Quality is hard; genius is rare.
But not practically impossible.
@OldCatLady which has what impact on what I said?
@compunaut I am referring specifically to the cliché generic inspirational speech segments called out in the images in question. They are literally designed to pander to people who already hate Trump enough to look for things to pick on without considering reason. They were generic sentiments that if you looked you’d probably find expressed in similar wording in countless political speeches over the decades.
@compunaut @OldCatLady Also of note is that based on a cursory investigation from my phone the Bee Movie one is fabricated from whole cloth. I’ll review the script from my PC when time allows but the phrase “we are one colony” doesn’t appear according to my phone’s find function. Similarly no direct evidence of any such statement in Avatar. I’m around 85% certain the entire thing is fabricated.
@jbartus
@OldCatLady Oh I just love how president Trump can grasp the ideas of others and make them his own.
@OldCatLady Both of those are hilarious, but false. The one from the dark knight is great, however.
@OldCatLady
No, he di-ent…he lied!
(Raise your hand if that surprises you.)
http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-strikes-nationalistic-tone-in-inaugural-speech-1484957527?tesla=y&mod=e2tw
@OldCatLady oh noes what? You spread clickbait nonsense from the internet without taking the time and effort to verify the details before sharing it? Yeah, that is pretty bad.
I’m not trying to be a dick but we have a serious problem in this country of lazy citizenry who are willing to accept anything that is said practically anywhere so long as what is said aligns with their personal beliefs about an issue. We live in the age of information, the internet is a limitless resource at your fingertips, Google is your friend, use it! SMH
@jbartus
Everyone has bought into something false for a bit here and there.
And everyone’s emotions get a bit powerful now and then.
All of us. Hopefully it’s minimal. Hopefully we catch ourselves at those times, recover, apologize or correct, keep going, do better.
The problems comes with the ones who make a habit of letting all that go without an error to steer back onto a level-headed course.
@f00l
Didn’t bother to proofread self again, I see.
Oh well, hell. It’s a high privilege to be preposterous. Not everyone can do it properly.
@jbartus She’s currently on suspension from CNN. What can ya do?
@f00l Today we are canceling the apocalypse.
@moondrake
I vote to cancel the apocalypse. Esp
If I can be in cool places and wear cool clothes and look good in them.
@OldCatLady Fake news is fake even when it is about Trump. Snopes says those are Trumps words, but the other lines cannot be found in the script for Avatar. There are plenty of things not to like about DT, but this is not one.
@jbartus I guarantee you…Trump could have said and done everything they say he did and more and if he had a “D” beside his name, we’d be hearing pin drops. Those women yelling about him were silent on Bill. All they care about is the letter following their name. Period.
@jbartus Yeah but it is still plagiarism. Turnitin.com would flag it at 100%. The least his speech writers could do is add “X” said or at least use Trump’s best words instead of the original, since after all he has the best words. Sigh.
@lseeber That is a rather overly broad generalization. R or D to me doesn’t matter. I care about his lies, his plagiarism, his attacks on others that in other contexts would get him labeled in derogatory ways, his inability to keep his trap shut, behave in a presidential way and instead engages in twitter wars. I worry about his lack of ethics he has shown in the business world - refusing to pay contractors, filing zillions of lawsuits… I could go on but I won’t.
@Kidsandliz
@lisaviolet Well yes this is probably true. Sign.
@lseeber What should women have been up in arms about with Clinton? That he cheated on his wife with a younger woman? Disgusting, but not relevant to his presidency. In looking at him as an elected official I don’t care about his dishonoring his marriage any more than I do Trump’s similar behaviors. Those are family matters. What I care about is political platforms and policies that threaten me, my friends and family.
@Kidsandliz what is plagiarism? To plagiarize requires that the accusations be valid in the first place, this was all fabricated out of whole cloth. There’s also some point where there are only so many ways to phrase a given idea, at some point it becomes impossible not to plagiarize according to turnitin.com when using very generic patriotic speech. Sure if these were legitimate the close phrasing across multiple sentences is interesting, but they’re not.
@lseeber please don’t try to lump me in with you, I don’t think we agree on most things and this is one of them.
@jbartus Plagiarism is borrowing words without proper documentation either copy/paste style or re-writing the idea and claiming it as your own thought. If you liked it enough to borrow it, you need to document where you borrowed it from. The examples posted to this board in this thread appear to be basically word for word.
@Kidsandliz I’m confused on what you are saying was plagiarized. Are you referring to the “movie quotes”? Because those were never in the movie.
@MrMark The movie stuff in this thread.
@Kidsandliz I think what MrMark is saying is that those quotes were never in either of the movies. They weren’t plagiarized because they weren’t there to begin with…
Just another one of those alternative facts. lol
@lisaviolet oh…
@Kidsandliz
@OldCatLady it has been brought to my attention by a third party that I may have misunderstood your intent with the cat image. I took it as a dismissive “whatever” brush off kind of post and my responses were colored accordingly. An alternative explanation where your response was meant as a light-hearted acknowledgement of the error was suggested by said third party and if that was the case then I apologize for my misinterpretation and any ensuing hostility or insult perceived or otherwise. I hope we can agree that communication on the internet is a poor substitute for face to face conversation as text leaves much open for interpretation.
Obviously we come from different places politically and are likely prone to clash when topics of such a nature come up but I am not in the habit of holding people’s political convictions and or positions against them on an interpersonal level. In general I find your company quite pleasant and enjoy having you around. It is my hope that we can move past this unpleasant topic and let our future interactions not be colored by our political disagreements. After all, who else am I going to tease about wearing socks with thong sandals?
I can’t decide if an image would be out of place here or not but I am going to go for broke and post a cat pic anyhow:
@jbartus I don’t know that I have ever read such an alexithymic comment. Emotionally healthy people don’t talk (or write) that way. They simply don’t. I seldom post here but I do read often and I am compelled to write to say that having read your comments in this thread and in others lately that I have developed a true sense of spiritual sorrow for you. In reading many of your writings I have come to be fond of you, but I must admit that sometimes it takes effort sorting through the things you say as you occasionally exhibit a great deal of dysfunction when there is emotion in your words. I hope that one day you are able to sort through things and that you are able to find a way to understand your emotional self and consequently relate to others on a much more human level. Others here have said similar, very recently in fact. Some have name called you. Others have tired being less direct and they have hinted that you seem to have difficulty with feelings. Your detachment mirrors that which I have observed in many gifted people that have suffered an intense trauma. There is no question that your are quite intelligent just as there is no question that you exhibit many times great difficulty with interpersonal relating. There is pain in your writing that comes through often. I’m sorry you are suffering. I truly hope you are able to one day find peace.
@jbartus you can also add the image to the yea cats thread…
@drfeelgood
Aw. Poor @jbartus was just never taught how to speak or write in English.
For which I blame the Goat.
Wait, isn’t @jbartus the Goat?
Why yes!! How simple it is. Just like Zen!
@jbartus, I celebrate that the world is full of both blame and compassion. I’m hoping more compassion than blame.
Net:
/UNBLAME.
@jbartus
I give up. Go psychoanalyze somebody else.
@drfeelgood
I don’t know you, unless you post here under another uid.
And I can’t pretend to know what motivated your post. Perhaps you did it with the best of motives.
But your post bothered me and I re-read it a few times. And then it bothered me more, for many many reasons.
It would be ok if we didn’t play amateur armchair psychologist with each other; and we didn’t throw “diagnoses” either of disorders and symptoms, or of “another’s pain” when the person “diagnosed” has not mentioned being in pain.
If you know your way around those psychological terms a bit, then you already know why doing “armchair psychologist” in an emotional situation can be a dark path.
I don’t want a contentious, and, to some, hurtful thread to get worse.
calling @carl669 fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck I sure hope my health insurance doesn’t go away and that the “they no longer can kill those of us with pre-existing conditions by denying us health insurance, thus health care” stays. Sigh.
@Kidsandliz
Is there any way you could move to a county/state that has reasonable costs of living, and also half-decent public healthcare options for people who have very low incomes?
I don’t even know what counties/states might qualify on both counts. But it seems to me that surely other universities elsewhere would be willing to hire an MBA/PhD at slave wages, just like they do in MS.
I keep wondering, if you found another low-cost housing area, would it be worse than where you are?
@Kidsandliz Maine has terrible rules for medicaid, but we do have something called “MaineCare” so us poor folk can get “medically necessary” treatment for free. I’m not sure where they draw the line for what’s necessary and not everything is covered, but I’d imagine cancer treatment falls into that category. Might be worth looking into- if you don’t want to live this far north, there are probably other states with similar programs.
@Pantheist @f00l I am on the waiting list for HUD housing in several states that do have expanded medicaid… of course if the asshat is dismantling everything anyway then moving, with the expense involved with that, will not be worth it. In higher ed if you are over about 45 you are over the hill anyway unless you are a full or associate professor with a very good publication record. I changed careers midlife and “won’t make full” (which is why many schools prefer to hire assistant professors in their 30’s - yes illegal but very hard to prove since all hiring is done behind closed doors by a committee that is not required to make anything pubic). I have a gap that any way I could honestly talk about it will result in more reasons not to hire me - cancer is still viewed as don’t hire them (heck this is why I was dumped from my old job to begin with “too expensive for their insurance” and while I finally won and got a small settlement (this state is stacked against the employee and is an “at will” state) that only paid down bills, didn’t get rid of all of them, and isn’t enough to make up for what was done to me. I am cobbling together adjunct jobs (pay is typically $2000-2500 a course of which you can usually only teach 1-2 at a time, so it means work for multiple schools, so they don’t have to pay benefits) and hunting for anything, including minimum wage stuff - especially if it has health insurance but min wage jobs are reluctant to hire some with much of a higher education.
I worked, many years ago, in Unity, Maine for an outdoor adventure program. A favorite memory was canoeing a bunch of miles, all day in a mild headwind, across a lake smelling sweet apple. When we finally got where we were going there was a lone apple tree in bloom on the shore. I like New England. My main catch is housing. Nineteen months of being homeless and couch surfing was enough. Don’t really want to do that again. Trouble is HUD has waiting lists, typically years long, so I wait.
@Kidsandliz I hear ya![](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAEALAAAAAABAAEAAAICTAEAOw== ":\")
Good luck.
@Kidsandliz
I wasn’t thinking of either ACA or Medicaid (which barely exists in MSN stats es anyway).
I was thinking of either states in which housing is “reasonable” and these states have some sort of medical option of their own creation (such as Maine or Massachusetts), or urban counties which have such options.
Dallas County had some sort of care option for people who are basically self-supporting, but can’t afford insurance. It runs thru Parkland and the neighborhood satellites. I don’t know the rules and you may have to have ACA in order to qualify.
Fort Worth (Tarrant County) has similar. I suspect the counties containing Houston, San Antonio, El Paso and some other Texas urban counties do also. Each one has its own rules. (Austin prob has this but housing is $$$.).
I presume s number of urban counties have this as a medical option.
As for housing - I don’t know the details of your circumstances or want you to spill them here, but could you enter into a decent “roommate” type situation until you could get subsidized housing and or find an affordable edible place of your own, if it made sense otherwise to move?
Those are always available, and many of them are quite nice, amd esp likely to be open to someone of your education.
your edu career appears to look unpromising. Is that final? Or is there a path somehow to getting into a decent edu track?
If not, can you leverage the MBA/PhD combo into part-time private consulting or working with a consulting company, and then leverage that into a private sector job w decent benefits? Such as in finance-banking-insurance-investing-biz services? That might give you far more flexibility once you got it going, and then eventually get you the opportunity of a job w a large corporate employer w insurance … Or possibly get grab a federal or other public sector job?
I dunno. I hate to see you possibly facing some sort of no-insurance doom.
I have always heard that many PhD’s who exited academia or never joined up in the first place then found trouble getting ordinary work, because everyone assumes that if you don’t have something high-level and prestigious, then obviously you’re professionally defective.
Isn’t that why a lot of former academics wind up driving big rigs? The PhD’s like the freedom, and that industry doesn’t discriminate?
@f00l says: "or find an affordable edible place of your own"
While this might save on grocery bills, it could also lend whole new shades of meaning to "eating yourself out of house and home."
@rockblossom
I so love “Siri”. Or that’s what I call the autocorrect on my iphone, it deserves a name.
Not only does it routinely mangle words into something I could not possibly have meant in Cupertino’s furthest reaches of imagination, it also routinely inserts extra dup words or related semi-dup words with zero justification.
Sometimes “Siri” gets so excited, it dups entire phrases for no apparent reason. I catch some of it. Usually I am in a hurry, impatient, and too po’d to do a full careful read-thru, and the results are often so hilarious that it’s worth appearing consistently brain-free just to see what “Siri” came up with this time.
And then I do catch most the the egregious semi-random “corrections”. Just after the edit window closes.
This comes from typing at stop lights and parking meters and on elevators and the like.
I used to be mortified.
Now I realize it gives me plausible deniability re sanity, so WIN-WIN.
Any who dare to believe that actual value lies within the @f00l/“Siri” combo does so at their own risk.
I blame @jbartus
Oh, and I celebrate life because my cell service is good and “Siri” surprises me every day. Hurray!
@f00l No. Absolutely not. Je refuse. I absolutely draw the line at autocorrect, that shit is whack and I will not take responsibility for it. Go blame Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, whoever invented Clippy, or someone equally deserving because this goat is not gonna take it.
@jbartus
I’ll blame you for everything that’s fun to blame you for. That’s my job. And since I’m celebrating also, genuinely, as you requested, I think I’m playing along nicely.
If you refuse to accept blame for things that are clearly absurd, hmmm. Perhaps you lack the inner conviction and steadfast blame-accepting determination and character strength a true goat should have.
For which I blame you.
J’accuse!
However I celebrate that you will come back with some remark or other so Yea!
@f00l I am willing to accept blame for things that are absurd, just not autocorrect!
@f00l Housing in El Paso is very reasonable especially if you arent hung up on modern amenities. In the central area where I live a lot of the huge old mansions have been broken up into a half dozen strange little studio apartments and rent is very cheap, maybe $300 a month. They have the basics like bathrooms and kitchens but fall short on accessibility, heating and cooling, that sort of thing. We have a state university (UTEP) and a communuty college but I have no idea how their hiring works. We have medical safety net agencies, in fact we have had some major medical education facilities built here recently, but I don’t know how we are on indigent major medical. It might be worth a look, though. Here’s a report card for us, looks pretty fair.
http://realestate.usnews.com/places/texas/el-paso
@moondrake Thanks for the info. In hud housing I am currently paying $120/mo including utilities so it will take a lot to be cheaper than that. Grant you it is around 400 square feet and 2 rooms and a motel style heater/AC but it is better than what was going on before. It is what it is…
@jbartus
Autocorrect is absurd. And I blame you for it.
So there, Goat.
I celebrate your Goatiness, even if you lack the moral courage to accept blame for autocorrect.
So there, Goat.
@moondrake
I like El Paso in itself. Plus it’s close to NM.
Family is mostly in N TX tho. The ones that aren’t in Texas are scattered.
If I were a bit richer I might move to wherever I wanted to live. That would be pleasant.
@f00l Before my best friend died last year we were considering moving to the Caribbean. We’d planned to spend part of our vacation in August looking at homes on Roatan, our favorite island. But I don’t think I want to do that alone.
@moondrake
The Caribbean could be an iffy place to live. Ice caps melting plus temp changes in atmosphere and oceans means more and bigger storms.
@jbartus I blame you for the goat refusing to accept blame
@CaptAmehrican I accept blame for this but accept no blame for autocorrect. :|
@jbartus
And I blame you for not accepting blame.
And I celebrate that I am doing recursive blaming which is fun.
@f00l I accept the blame for everything but autocorrect. Nothing you say or do will change this much as nothing I said or did would get a sonnet out of you!
@jbartus
I recursively blame you …
Assume a infinite progression there.
I expect you to take the time to personally feel the burden of each individual blame, as is your assignment as Goat.
I celebrate because blaming you this way is lots of fun. And because the more you resist…
please do keep resisting!
See ya soon for more!
@f00l where autocorrect is concerned this goat is off duty.
@jbartus
Your fate:
@f00l None of those are my fate, I have the good sense to own an Android phone.
What I don’t understand is how can America be great again, when it never was not?
@cranky1950
Marketing.
@cranky1950 totally agree. If you can convince poorly educated idiots whose life is shit that voting for will make things better-then you will get their vote.
These low information people will quickly learn that their savior has been taking advantage of people like them all his life.
And regardless of who is President, these people’s will remain in the crapper for a variety of reasons.
Donald Trump can’t solve the fact that you have a third grade education or that their job is now obsolete and is never coming back.
@Felton10 You sir, are an arrogant prick.
@Felton10 @JanaS and Exhibit A for why the Democrats lost the election
@JanaS At least I am not a pussy grabber.
@JanaS And YOU obstructed and paralyzed the country for 8 years, rather than put differences aside and work to run this country in a sane way, because YOU didn’t get your way. Besides you lost the popular vote by millions and this is America. Hardly a mandate, especially with gerrymandered districts. Fortunately people in this country are allowed to be upset with the government.
@JanaS Why is it that you can’t spell? “Immasculate” isn’t a word in the English language dictionary. Why is it that “you” can’t understand that Clinton won the popular vote? She got 65,844,954 (48.2%) to his 62,979,879 (46.1%), almost 2.9 million more.
@JanaS So much fail in your meme. Just so much.
@JanaS
@OldCatLady why is is that you can’t understand that the presidential election is not a raw popularity contest by majority rule for a reason? A handful of major population centers do not an entire country represent.
Also @Pantheist - Regarding 7 Obamacare is broken because it does neither of those two things.
@jbartus I know it frustratingly excludes the lowest income people (being one myself), but at least it was working in the right direction. It also did make it so us poor people could take advantage of the system to get coverage for a month when we need surgery- yes gaming the system is bad, but if you need an expensive medical procedure and can’t pay there is no good solution. I was under the impression people with pre-existing conditions did get coverage now. Is that wrong?
@jbartus Really? No coverage for pre-existing conditions under Obamacare? Is that what you’re saying? And if it is, would you like to bet the farm on that?
@jbartus Could you explain your comment about Obamacare because it makes no sense.
@jbartus - Perhaps ACA isn’t perfect because the tea partiers fought so long and hard to block it as originally drafted. They managed to cut it back, then blamed Obama for the result. I’m not sure why conservatives hate it so much. Millions of people will suffer from an indiscriminate repeal.
One crucial quality missing in this administration is compassion.
@KDemo Well, I’m safe because I have the ACA for insurance, it’s Obamacare they’re getting rid of.
Wait! They’re the same thing? Oh, holy shit! I’m fucked!
@Pantheist @lisaviolet people with preexisting conditions have the option of getting coverage now but often not the means because of people gaming the system. @sammydog01 Obamacare’s success was predicated upon 100% enrollment in coverage which it never achieved. Plans have consistently been becoming more and more expensive as a result often pricing people who have those preexisting conditions out of the market. I have an acquaintance who is a survivor of a very treatable form of cancer whose insurance cost literally doubled heading into FY2017 versus 2016 and his coverage already cost a small fortune. It is unsustainable.
@KDemo maybe they feel that it was approaching the problem in the wrong way? Maybe some of them think that the answer is less about forcing everybody to be insured to subsidize the cost of those who are expensive to treat and more about implementing solutions to things like the absurd cost of drugs in the US or the insane expenses doctors incur as a result of this lawsuit-happy society we live in.
The problem we have more than anything in this country is that people too often label anyone who doesn’t agree with their solution to a problem. Labels don’t help anybody, ever. Quit labeling people and have a discussion with them, if we don’t work together in a constructive manner then nothing lasting will ever get done, it will continue to be an endless cycle of implement and repeal.
@jbartus The premiums rise because the insurance companies are a bunch of greedy sons of bitches.
My husband has always been self-employed. So, we got insurance where we could, did a lot of shopping around. When he turned fifty (long before the ACA) our premium doubled. Overnight. From $250 to $500. We shopped around again. And Every. Single. Year. Our premium was raised. Every year. Without fail. Not that we used it on a regular basis. We paid more in premiums that it cost the company to pay our medical bills. But, just in case…we always had it.
We had a friend, too, who was self-employed and because he had a pre-existing condition, his rate was $1000 a month. His condition? High blood pressure. Easily treatable with medication.
Before the ACA, people who had pre-existing conditions were put into a pool of other people with pre-existing conditions and the premiums skyrocketed. With the ACA, you couldn’t be charged a higher premium.
The problem is the insurance companies. And big pharma. And greedy CEOs.
@jbartus Oy. Now it’s important to work together? Tell that to McConnell and his cronies. I believe that now the right wing deserves a taste of its own medicine. And as far as medicine, will they fix the drug pricing problem and reign in malpractice costs before repealing something that is working, and getting better?
From Money - "These increased costs for employers and employees alike may seem steep—up around 50% over the past eight years—but they could have risen far higher had the Affordable Care Act never passed."
Also https://www.healthinsurance.org/blog/2016/07/29/health-premiums-after-obamacare-theyre-lower/
@lisaviolet I would have no objections to looking at regulating the insurance industry, god knows I have my own issues with them. This is, however, a prime example of how people can agree that there’s a problem and disagree on how to fix it. I don’t see the ACA as having fixed anything in the long run, you can say it was the result of gutting or whatever but the fact remains that as implemented it’s broken.
If you’re interested in my thoughts, I think we need to attack this problem from all angles. The insurance industry needs to be regulated because you’re right, they post record profits year after year. The legal vulnerability for hospitals and doctors needs to be closed up, it’s far too broad right now – if you are maimed by a doctor it’s one thing, if a treatment isn’t successful it’s an entirely different thing. This practice of litigation at the drop of the hat needs to end. Another practice that needs to end is hospitals padding their rates for insurance companies to then chop down.
That’s part of why it’s not practical to seek coverage without insurance, an Aspirin does not cost $60 (though the hospital’s insurance costs relating to the litigation aspect play into this as well, see what I mean about all angles?) – worst case if we’re still going to let the insurance companies negotiate the prices down then hospitals need to empower their staff to negotiate with patients paying out of pocket on the same level. And finally, and most significantly in my mind, the pharmaceuticals industry needs to have the reins put on and we need to fix our patent laws in this country to stop situations like Daraprim from happening whereby companies like Turing have exclusivity of distribution preventing competition in the market.
Any solution that doesn’t address all of these areas is doomed to failure.
@jbartus One of the things the ACA did was to hold insurance companies accountable to some degree. (Like the 80/20 rule.)
I’m pretty sure that a lot of the politicians (both parties) are in the pockets of the insurance industry and big pharma.
(That’s another thing that needs to change, but that’s for another time.)
A few years back, a woman on one of the forums I hung out at had a miscarriage. They couldn’t afford the hospital bill. (They already had three kids.) Over $65,000 it was. They didn’t pay it.
A few years later, she starts complaining about people who feel entitled. And I was thinking to myself how hypocritical that was of her. Because the hospital can’t keep operating when they incur losses like hers. No, they pass the cost on. To the government (write offs) and insurance companies (in the form of higher prices) which are passed on to us, the consumers who DO pay for their insurance.
I don’t know why I brought that up, it just always annoyed the hell out of me.
As for insurance fraud, there’s always going to be someone who takes advantage of the system. ($60 aspirin?)
https://www.nhcaa.org/resources/health-care-anti-fraud-resources/the-challenge-of-health-care-fraud.aspx
@KDemo I don’t know what Fantasy Island your sources are living on but I don’t know a single person who’s got a better deal now than they had pre-Obamacare and any claims that it’s prevented costs from being even higher are speculative at best. The people I do know are:
Those last three bullet points aren’t “or” entries either, that’s all three simultaneously.
@jbartus Are you saying that before, when cancer was figured into premiums, his insurance would have been cheaper? Because I 'm pretty sure he would have been screwed over.
@lisaviolet you were right to bring it up because it is an argument for the case that we absolutely need to do something because the status quo isn’t working.
$60 Aspirin wasn’t a hypothetical, it was from my dad’s hospital bills when he had his accident a few years ago. That’s what the dose price for an aspirin tablet was.
@jbartus You don’t know a single person? Let me introduce myself…
We lost coverage, paid higher premiums, changed doctors, had higher out of pocket costs all the time before the ACA.
@sammydog01 I have no info on that specific, but the point is that it’s not working because it’s basically on the cusp of where he won’t be able to afford it either way. In other words, the ACA is not helping him. Even if it helped him get coverage in the first place it’s demonstrably unsustainable.
@lisaviolet care to elaborate on what is better about your deal now?
@jbartus We’re not paying as much and there’s no cap on what would be paid for. And then there’s the subsidies. That’s a huge help.
@jbartus I’m pretty sure that $60 aspirin includes the services of the nurse who delivered it. And Americans in general have no concept of dying gracefully- we like to go out in the hospital having tons of procedures costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe that’s part of the problem?
@lisaviolet I’m guessing from the talk of caps and such that you’re probably one of those preexisting condition people who were getting a bad deal before? I’m quite happy for you that things have improved, sadly your tale is not the norm in my experience.
@sammydog01 I agree with you there. It sounds cold but at some point we need to stop trying to keep everybody alive and accept the fact that their body is breaking and shutting down and that that’s alright, that it’s better to go out with dignity than to die grasping on to the last vestiges of life while having no quality of life as you lie in a hospital bed dependent on three separate machines working in harmony to keep you alive.
@jbartus Nope. No pre-existing conditions for either of us. No health problems to speak of (besides the high blood pressure and at 63, it’s not a surprise).
Believe it or not, I just care about others, is all. I know that life isn’t all about me.
@jbartus My family’s situation improved. Our premiums didn’t rise that much. Our plan covers 100% in network still (and it’s a pretty wide network). No deductible. Copays are $15 for GPs and $30 for specialists. No copays for preventative care now. We’re a lot better off now, insurance wise. My daughter started getting allergy shots last year. She’s probably got five more years to go. Right now, it’s covered 100%. She also has food allergies and both my kids have asthma. Getting rid of protections for preexisting conditions scares me. She had five surgeries to remove pilomatrixomas between 2010 & 2014. We paid nothing out of pocket. If she ever gets more, and we’ve had to change insurance for any reason, I bet future surgeries won’t be covered. These protections were necessary. And while I know the ACA wasn’t able to help everyone, I personally know a lot of people whose lives were literally saved due to having insurance through ACA.
@PurplePawprints that’s really great, I am under no circumstances claiming that the Affordable Care Act did nothing for anybody, but I do think it has been a net negative and feel strongly that it has already demonstrated that in the long run it is unsustainable. It was a band aid for a problem that requires major surgery.
@lisaviolet I’m not really sure how I’m meant to take your last sentence there. Not wanting to be all oversensitive or anything but I can’t help but feel like there was an implication there that you care about others and feel that I don’t. Please tell me I’m wrong?
By the way another issue I didn’t mention earlier is the irrational disparity between costs of care in the ER versus other parts of the same building. Why should the same procedure cost three times as much in the ER?
@OldCatLady Popular vote does not count.
I’d be really pissed if I carpet-bombed America with non-stop commercials using massive amounts of money from every special interest and union in the country… to lose.
Clinton had crappy advice or is just stupid. I hope it’s the first one.
You need to run a campaign to win electoral votes to win the election, especially if it’s predicted to be a close election. Spending time and money in the wrong areas will cause you to fail.
Neither candidate won over 50% of the count. Many who are protesting didn’t even vote. There’s large protests every time a Republican wins, to the point of keeping Republicans from going out to enjoy the win.
If everything is totally screwed up in two years, Democrats can take back the House & Senate! If things are working out just fine… we’ll see.
@jbartus Nothing meant by it.
Although I thought a little about your “we need to stop trying to keep everybody alive” comment.
Who’s going to make that decision. A panel? A death panel? That was one of the points used by the Republicans about the scary things that would happen with the implementation of the ACA. Death panels! There will be death panels!
That to me is a personal choice. But from my experience, someone who wants to go, goes. It’s the family that won’t let it happen. My father-in-law quit eating. My mom quit eating. Both were in care facilities with DNRs.
Remember Terry Schiavo? I’m all for the right to die with dignity.
@jbartus I have a better deal than before ACA care. Why? Because before that I could only have insurance if I had a job that offered it. With preexisting conditions being covered involved the high risk pool and even years later that is more expensive with FAR less coverage than what I have now even though now I am paying $1119.19/mo.
@PurplePawprints Count me as one of them too. My two cancers in one year gig with chemo through the second year and them problems though the next two (nearly killed my bone marrow) started out on company insurance, ended with COBRA and then fortunately for me ACA (although I had to buy off the exchange since the network didn’t have the specialist I needed and since I made too little to get a subsidy, the price was within $10 or so a month, I bought it off the exchange. Where there no ACA I would have had no insurance when COBRA ended because of the pre-existing conditions issue.
@lisaviolet I was watching a tv show and a woman with terminal cancer checked into a care facility for the purpose of assisted suicide. She talked it over a bit with the nurse and then settled in for a peaceful and dignified exit while the nurse prepared the meds. All I could think was, “where is this place? Do you have to live there or can you hire this service as a non-resident?” With Alzheimers being 100% on my mom’s side of the family (they call it the Family Curse, as far back as family history goes it’s been a guarantee for anyone making it to 70), this is a very real question for me. I have absolutely no desire to end my life demeaned and dehumanized as I watched with my great grandmother, grandmother and mother.
@lisaviolet I am with you on the caring about others. In my opinion, as a society we have an obligation to help others and create a safety net for people whose lives are imploding. Not to mention some of the disabled, mentally ill, low IQ, some elderly, etc. may never be successful in this society (and of course some will). I so fail to understand people who operate using the me me me and the hell with anyone else mentality. Many of them may well be one cancer or other disaster away from the situation I find myself in. I also resent that those who use services get labeled as bums gaming the system, too lazy to work, etc.
I never would have thought, after working since I was 14, with an education blah blah blah that I EVER would have been in the situation I am in now. I grew up poor because my dad was a minister, but I was solidly middle class, savings (enough that lasted me nearly a year and that is with medical expenses), retirement money saved… and now I live below the poverty line most months and spent 19 months homeless couch surfing. In fact my address wasn’t even my own because I was moving around so much my mail never would have caught up with me.
To me one of the bigger ironies is the party of the christian, family values apparently have forgotten what the new testament says about helping the less fortunate…
@lisaviolet Now won’t need death panels because by gutting health insurance so that the poor, those with pre-existing conditions, etc. can’t get insurance thus can’t get medical care will die. I guess that is one way to try to solve the “poverty problem” and “cleanup” the gene pool… Sigh.
@jbartus
You are correct about our health care costs and systems needing to be assessed and reformed from all angles - insurance, pharmacy, hospital al profits, the costs of educating physicians (someone who goes into family practice or a few other specialities may never make enough to pay their educational loans), the legal system, etc. And the insurance system, the reimbursement and auditing systems, the “death with dignity” and hospice access, the stupid unnecessary expenses, and on and on.
My life has gotten better with ACA because I can now purchase decent insurance. I receive no subsidies. Have no pre-existings. The insurance available for purchase previously had horrible limitations, was more expensive, and in all ways worse (with worse in-network choices). It was so bad and so expensive I just crossed my fingers and hoped. So far I’ve been lucky.
Many family members and friends have insurance from employee plans. Not one of those plans has gotten worse faster during the existence of the ACA than those plans and offerings did before the existence of the ACA (the plans had been getting worse and more expensive annually every year for the last 25+ years, without exception).
The people I know are, in some cases, covered by small company plans (100 persons or fewer, 20 persons or fewer, etc); and in some cases by medium or large company plans ( 1K+ employes, 10k+ employees or much larger); and in some cases by industry and professional group plans. And some didn’t have insurance and some were able to afford the high-risk pools.
All of these plans have gotten worse annually, and more expensive annually, every year since at least 1990. That’s 27 years of getting worse every years without exception. Wanna know if that’s accurate? Ask anyone who dealt with this in HR or who administered or sold these plans. Anyone. And there is a buttload of industry and journalistic documentation. Magazine covers. Industry advisories. The works. Since the Reagan era if not before.
How exactly did the ACA create a problem that’s been getting worse for many decades?
In many cases individual plans were simply not available for purchase, excepting students. After the creation of high- risk pools, the plans were limited and often completely unaffordable to a member of the middle class (premiums sometimes for more than $1k/person each month even 15+ years ago.
So people went without. In my state, among the full-time employed, something close to 40% were uninsured for most of the 20 years prior to the ACA.
I know of no individual, and no small biz owner (I know a lot of these) whose situation is worse with the ACA.
Perhaps things are diff in MA.
Yes, ACA is to some degree a band-aid and is flawed, in part because of Washington politics and the choice the Republicans made in Jan 2009 to block or oppose every Democratic initiative without exception. In part because so many politicians at state and federal levels are already bought and paid for by various profitable portions of the health care industry. In part because politicians simply do not want to tell the truth on this topic. You think the Obama admin oversold the ACA? Wait till you see what the Rep Congress and the Trump admin do. And wait till you see how the big $ interests respond to anything they don’t like.
Hello to fake news, the next generation.
But since our political system is insanely partisan right now and many politicians put party loyalty ahead of their constituents’ well-being, that’s what we get. Trump has nothing better to offer. The republicans, who have consistently lied about the ACA, have nothing better they are willing to offer.
I would love to see the ACA improved, or replaced by something that is actually an improvement for those who have trouble getting or affording health care at all. Right now, the ACA is an improvement in every way over what came before.
Or we can drop it, replace it with nothing or with one of the massively inferior republican offerings, and transition to being the sort of society where healthcare is a primary marker of class - and, with few exceptions, only the upper middle-class and above commonly has health insurance from any source other than a county charity, or only the upper-middle-class and above have health coverage that isn’t horrible.
The law previous to the ACA already allowed companies to distinguish health insurance offerings by “employee tier”, this allowing companies to offer excellent plans to executives and top employees, while lower level employees received much less attractive plans or in some cases no coverage at all. Without the ACA, the trend of not covering low-level employees or offering them terribly coverage will increase, due to health insurance costs. And what of the self-employed? They get coverage where?
I know of one local company who does this. Management gets so-so coverage. Upper mgmt gets excellent coverage. Full-time regular employees - more than 80% of total employees, who make not much $ - get no health coverage at all. The company has operated that way for 40+ years, it has nothing to do with the ACA. After the ACA, the regular employees whose spouses didn’t have coverage were able to purchase heath insurance for the first time since starting to work there.
I know of some very large corporations who were considering using the “decreasing benefits, increasing premiums, decreasing company contributions method” of reducing the #'s of employees covered by healthcare for non-mgmt, non-contract, and non-specialty employees prior to the ACA, because those companies believed all other companies would do this also, so there would still be no shortage of employees available. They hoped to eventually offer minimal coverage or no coverage to normal employees at all, while offering “Cadillac plans” to favored upper employees. All these companies had to do to implement this was to create legal employee tiers and then purchase and implement group plans according to their goals. This was legal legal legal on a national level, tho a few states may have regulated this practice. Texas did not.
With or without the ACA, our health system’s finances and the means of paying for it completely suck and have for decades, ever since industry lobbying started to matter more than offering good quality to the consumer. Tho the medical care and the technology can be quite good if you have good coverage or $. The ACA didn’t create the suckage. Remove the ACA, replace it with something inferior (which is likely), and things would suck way more.
It might help to fix the system if people would stop bringing partisan party politics into it, and discuss it honestly.
It might help if people really understood how healthcare works, and how politics is captive to the healthcare and insurance industries. And what insurance is, how it works, and how it works if you can’t get it or can’t afford what’s out there.
It might help if people who believe in a “pure free market” (doesn’t exist, but, for the sake of argument , let’s assume … ) would be completely honest about the necessary result being many people, and over time increasing percentages of the population, being very badly covered or having no coverage at all.
And if people would stop blaming the problems on the admittedly imperfect ACA, which did not cause these problems in the first place. Yeah, the ACA has probs, but you really want to go back to the pre-ACA world?
Hello, hell.
I would prefer moving forward toward something better, unlikely as that seems at this moment.
@f00l I would star this a thousand times if I could.
@Kidsandliz As patriots, we Democrats need to rise to the occasion and work with the president we’ve got, even if he’s not the president we wanted. But Republicans have no business saying that to us, as so many of their appointed leaders resoundingly proved themselves not to be patriots by preferring to see the country fail than see anything Obama touched succeed. They spent eight years throwing an enormous tantrum and made it very clear that the welfare of our country and her people were far less important to them than their egos and agendas. Based on their behavior, the protests by Democrats are more than justified. But we must not measure our behavior by their short yardstick, but by our own. We need to organize (always a challenge for Democrats), acquiesce gracefully to those policies and plans that are benefial or neutral and fight tooth and nail against those that are destructive. Not stall this country, as Congressional Republicans strove to do, but protect her.
@moondrake I agree but it takes two in order to cooperate… so they have a hand in allowing cooperation to succeed as well and not insist, like a little kid, that cooperation means “my way” as first priority. I am not sure they are capable of that unfortunately or they wouldn’t not have behaved the way they did for 8 years. Hope to be proven wrong but I won’t be placing a bet with the London bookies.
@f00l If we take immunization and basic health care away from the poor and middle class and let disease and ill health run rampant among them, the rich will not be immune to the suffering. Immunizations are not 100% effective, they rely on “herd immunity”, wherein most individuals one comes in contact with are also vaccinated so the chance of contact with infected persons is low. Most of the “1%” come into contact with the other 99% on a daily basis. If their drivers, pilots, doormen, maids, cooks, etc. are sick, it makes them vulnerable to it. Even if we don’t eliminate immunization and just take regular primary care out of the average person’s reach, the number of people suffering catastrophic health problems from diabetes, cancer and heart disease alone would be crippling. If we decided not to provide costly medical care for those laid low by disease I’d imagine their loved ones would uncooperatively struggle to take care of them and this would result in increased crime and possibly decreased productivity. It all reminds me of the battlefield adage “aim to maim”, because killing an enemy removes one enemy, seriously injuring one removes him and everyone needed to help him. Making healthcare inaccessible to poor and middle income persons is effectively aiming to maim the working class, which is by no means beneficial to those who ride to wealth upon their backs.
@moondrake
Agreed. I believe that a highly tired healthcare system where decent care is increasingly unaffordable, minimal care available to everyone else is either not good or nearly inaccessible, would lead to social, economic, and productivity declines, less favorable business environments, and quickly worsening health across society, impacting the rich in addition to everyone else.
The higher tech, more educated, and more dominant a country, the more imperative it becomes that services which contribute widely across various income situations to productivity and basic opportunity (including higher education and healthcare) and services that mean that the most vulnerable receive basic care and the possibility of a decent life are essential to preserving the wealth and productivity of that country.
The example I used previously - about institutionalized class system healthcare becoming more common here that it already is - was intended as an example of policies and practices likely to lead toward worsening productivity and intense class resentment, as well as the institutionalization of a permanent underclass and a worse business environment.
@jbartus Saw this while working. Looks like plenty of people are better off with obamacare in place, unless there’s some argument that they’ll be better off without insurance.
source:
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-2016/costestimate/hr3762senatepassed.pdf
@Pantheist that number represents less than 7% of the US population. Continuing to saddle 100% of the population with an unsustainable system to benefit 7% in the short term (remember my friend, the cancer survivor? He’s about to be priced out of insurance, how long for the rest of that 7%, never mind the other 93%?) is not a viable proposition.
It needs to be replaced, it’s a broken half-measure of a system that doesn’t address many of the key issues. Yeah it benefits a segment of the population, but for how long?
@f00l amen! good post re ACA.
@jbartus 7% is a lot for a first-world country. A better system would be great, but it needs to be found before removing what safety net there is.
@jbartus If you allow insurance companies to price based on pre-existing conditions your friend will never, ever be able to afford insurance because he has a giant “C” tatooed on his forehead. I suggest you find a better example for your arguments.
@sammydog01 I think this is where those death panels enter the equation.
@f00l
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-aetna-obamacare-20170123-story.html
@Pantheist I don’t disagree with you in principle, I too would prefer that order of events, but we don’t get to live in an ideal world.
@sammydog01 I have no desire to do so. I find it interesting how my position against the ACA on grounds of ineffectiveness and lack of fiscal sustainability suddenly makes me pro-insurance discrimination in your mind.
@lisaviolet An inability to discuss the issues and try to find a middle ground instead of insisting on ‘my way or the highway’ is what will ensure that a replacement isn’t enacted in a timely manner. Keep on about those death panels. The Aetna situation has what bearing here? It demonstrates only that the ACA was subject to abuse and misuse by both sides (patients and insurance companies)
@jbartus I assumed you were pro pre-ACA, and that’s the way it was. Giving folks with medical problems the same cost insurance as healthy ones is what brings the costs up, right? You either charge high users more or spread the cost to low users.
@jbartus
I asked you who would make the decision to end the life. You didn’t answer.
As for the Aetna link, it was just underscoring how the insurance company plays everyone. It wasn’t the
ACA’s fault they pulled out of the markets. It was because they didn’t get their way to get even bigger (and greedier) than they already were.
Oh, and I found this about abuse. Looks like care providers are a big part of it.
http://www.quackwatch.com/02ConsumerProtection/insfraud.html
@jbartus Considering the Republicans are more likely than not to let the ACA hang out in a broken state (anything that doesn’t require going to Congress will go ASAP), and a replacement (if any) is not likely to be forthcoming soon or nearly as comprehensive as the current plan, is it better to fight to keep what’s in place or let it go and hope that things will get better?
@sammydog01 or you attack the high costs at the sources. Why aren’t any of you going after the pharmaceutical industry? Getting behind legal reform to limit the legal vulnerability of people whose goal in life is to help other people? It’s a multi-faceted problem, the ACA was not fixing even half of it.
@lisaviolet I am referring to the larger societal issue where we want to keep everybody alive for as long as we can, not convening death boards to pick who lives and dies.
I have no love for the insurance companies, they suck and my loved ones have fought their own battles with them. Aetna was certainly in the wrong using their participation as a bargaining chip for preferential treatment but it’s no different than companies from any other industry negotiating with the government. “We’ll send jobs overseas if you don’t…” etc.
@dashcloud since what is in place is broken, I don’t see that there’s a whole lot to fight to keep other than the equal cost and pre-existing condition provisions. Luckily the Democrats have 46 votes in the Senate which means they can push for these provisions under the threat of filibuster. Unlike when the Republicans did the same thing, the Democrats can’t be ignored because they single-handedly have six more votes than required to filibuster. Healthcare reform is such a hot-button issue that it is a matter of political necessity to both sides to implement some kind of reform, leaving it open ended for perpetuity won’t fly.
@jbartus Republicans already have a plan to get rid of the mandate and subsidies as a budget resolution, which can’t be filibustered. What do you think will happen to premiums if those go and the rules about pre-existing conditions stay?
@Pantheist while you are correct that as budgetary matters the mandate (a tax) and subsidies can be eliminated through reconciliation and you’re right that this has the potential to create the situation you described, the Democrats retain the same power I mentioned on other issues and, as happens so often in Washington, the “you do this for my bill and I’ll do this for yours” principle applies. As I stated, something has to be implemented to replace the ACA, it’s a matter of political necessity to both parties, the Democrats for obvious reasons and the Republicans because they’ve promised to do so and it’s too big an issue to ignore. The Democrats hold significant power with their ability to filibuster because they can actively stop the Republicans in their tracks and spin it as “they’re not giving a fair deal to the American people” whereas the Republicans will be left with their collective asses hanging out in the wind. That’s when concessions are made.
Now, you could argue that another reconciliation be enacted thereafter, and you’d be right, but that could be done one way or another President Trump or no.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@jbartus I think it’s also worth noting that the reconciliation process is exactly how these features were implemented. technically speaking they’re not part of the Affordable Care Act. the Affordable Care Act which was crafted in the Senate by misappropriating another bill that passed the house already and modified removing any semblance of the original bill was shove through the Senate making use of the temporary senate note held by a stand-in for the then deceased Kennedy prior to the special election. Upon election of Scott Brown, a Republican, who ran on a platform of filibustering the act in the Senate and won the election in one of the bluest states in the country House Democrats opted to push through the bill and do their best and do their best to modify it through reconciliation thereafter. the point of all this being that it’s a legitimate tool in our political system the point of all this being that it’s a legitimate tool in our political system that both parties have used towards their own ends.
@jbartus wow speech-to-text really butchered that one and I didn’t get the edit in in time.
The most glaring issue is that it said Senate note and not Senate vote. Beyond that I think you can get the gist of things.
@jbartus Well, what you said makes sense to me. I don’t know enough about politics to be sure that’s the way it will go, but I hope you’re right.
@Pantheist
@jbartus
Some parts of the ACA will be difficult to gut, due to horse trading and filibuster threats.
I would think that the Republican Congress would be cautious about the 2018 elections and be careful how far they go in dismembering the ACA without a credible backup in place.
So far the the rhetoric I’ve heard has sounded more extreme than I expected. Rhetoric is not legislation, so future unknown. But the Congress is so polarized, and many members so ideological, that the final result seems quite up in the air.
If the majority of Republicans choose hard-line ideology, then even if they can’t fully repeal the ACA, they can leave it on life support.
@f00l @Pantheist @jbartus
President Trump has already stated that the pre-existing conditions clause and the coverage under their parents policy for children living with their parents until they’re 26 will stay. He also has warned Congress not to repeal the ACA without an acceptable replacement.
One of the basic principles of the ACA was that the younger people covered would be subsidizing the older folks because they wouldn’t need to use insurance as much. This would keep rates down because costs would be spread out. This has for all intents and purposes (IMHO) turned into a bigger Ponzi scheme than Social Security. Young people have realized it’s a lot cheaper to pay the monthly penalty than to pay the premiums. If something did happen they could go online and buy insurance for as long as it was needed. (Can’t be turned down for pre-existing conditions remember?) So cost sharing across the age groups isn’t working. Insurance Companies are losing part of their (admittingly gross) profits so they are jacking up their prices or just pulling out of the market place all together. Like any Ponzi scheme this is not sustainable for long. If the insurance companies all pull out what happens to the ACA? My guess is what the Progressives really want: Single-payer healthcare.
@jbartus Sorry about letting you shoulder most of the burden of this discussion. My Sister-in-Law is going into Hospice after a 2 1/2 year battle with brain cancer so I’ve been a bit distracted of late. I read all the back and forth and agree with your stand on the matter; especially your take on death with dignity. There comes a time when anything else done just prolongs the agony. While it should NEVER be the choice of the insurance company it should always be a choice of the individual or their family if they aren’t capable of making that choice.
@JanaS Without restating earlier points, single payer healthcare would be great. You know why medical shit costs so much more in the US than other countries? If you have one insurer that covers 90% of the population, they have amazing negotiating power to bring costs down.
@Pantheist
But who’s going to pay for it? This country is already almost $20 TRILLION in debt. What are you willing to forgo in order to pay for it? Defense? Education? Our National Parks? YOUR PAYCHECK???
When has the government, Dem or Rep, EVER negotiated anything in favor of the people at the expense of corporate America? Reality check! And if a private insurance company had a 90% monopoly they could charge whatever they wanted to. If you didn’t like it than you could take your business to… oh wait!
Why not pass a law that states a hospital or Pharmaceutical company cannot charge anyone more than the lowest price negotiated with any insurance company? And while you’re at it, what about doing something about that $150,625 appendicitis operation at Bayonne Hospital Center, Bayonne, NJ that only costs $100,440 at Somerset Medical Center, Somerville, NJ? (Acute appendicitis with localized peritonitis, ICD10 Code K353) ACA was written for the insurance companies so they would buy in. It was not written for the consumer. That’s what needs to change.
Here’s another idea. Let’s take 10 Democrats and 10 Republicans chosen by lot and lock them up in one of the government bunkers until they agree on a replacement for the ACA. That way the Republicans can’t do what the Democrats did and ramrod through something the other party doesn’t agree with.
@Pantheist
my main concern was the supreme court. our country needs constitution upholding judges on the supreme court. hillary would have appointed another liberal, and then there would not be any balance at all. i had no choice but to vote for trump.
to me, the liberal party leadership has veered to far left again, and the american people had to reign them in again. just like if trump, well, he’s not a true conservative… but if the conservative party leadership veers to far to the right again, the american people will reign them in again too. it’s a roundy, roundy, here we go again thing.
newly elected presidents have high hopes they can bring about real change. it ain’t that easy. every president does get a couple things done for the betterment of america. i hope trump can make a couple of changes that improve america too. all bitchin aside. USA? i don’t want to live anywhere else, and i want every person who wants to be here to say " I am an American!!!" period.
@mick The wife is a registered Democrat but she voted for President Trump for much the same reasons. The Democratic Party anymore seems to stand for special interest groups while ignoring the working people who are the backbone of this great nation.
@mick @mehrocco_Mole I’m sorry, but I disagree. I don’t think we’ve ever had any truly liberal Judges. We’re too conservative of a country to have any true Liberal Judges. The Democratic party is in special interests and doesn’t give a crap about us… but I think the republicans don’t give a crap about us either. The only one that cared about us… Well he’s still doing his best… but we didn’t give him enough power.
/giphy Bernie Sanders
@sohmageek Sanders needed more power and a bazillion dollars to do what he wanted but I agree he’s the most honest one of the bunch.
@sammydog01 He’s a scary socialist. We really don’t want to go further down that road. It’s time to back up & start to limit government again.
@sohmageek of course you are right about both party’s lack of caring. that’s why folks ended up voting for trump. to shake things up! the whole bernie socialist slant scares the bejeebsy out of me. like venezuela… you don’t have to say sorry. we can respectfully and cordially disagree.
@mick i’m an aMeh.rican, yay us (or usa)! i appreciate your sentiments
/youtube 41 shots
@mick it’s not a slant. He is a democratic socialist. He is also very real. I’ve talked to him in person. Some of our best minds in the world and in history want socialism. Star trek’s starfleet is 100% socialism, so is social security, the fire department, public libraries, public schools… socialism isn’t scary when implemented correctly.
I feel sorry for the people who were taken in by Trump the con man. They are just too stupid to know any better.
@Felton10 Just remember, the opposite of “lib” is “con”.
They got their emperor.
@lisaviolet Yeah and now the rest of us are going to be collateral damage.
{gets on political soapbox}
With all the negativity about Trump I want to say… which is more scary. Trump/Pence or Pence/Ryan… that is all
{hops off and burns soapbox}
@sohmageek Trump has no filters. The other two are seasoned. JMO.
They won’t get us bombed out of existence because of a perceived slight or insult.
Look at his tweets about companies. Stocks drop. Stocks rise.
Gotta go with Pence/Ryan.
@lisaviolet Agree wholeheartedly. "There are no morals in politics; there is only experience. A scoundrel may be of use because he is a scoundrel.” (Source: noted moral arbiter and politician, V. Lenin.)
@lisaviolet I’d guess he has an off shore shell company (or some other hard to untangle relationship) selling short, etc. prior to his tweets too. Bet his family does too.
@lisaviolet The only catch with Pence/Ryan is that they know how to manipulate the system and that, in some respects, makes them more dangerous in the long run (with respect to what they will manage to get passed or pushed through or executive order through - the piss off our allies and enemies - well they will do less of that).
@sohmageek
Trump is more likely to create an unforeseen idiotic disaster due to his impulsivity and his “if I want it to be true, that makes it true” attitude.
On the absence of such a catastrophe, Trump is less dangerous than Pence/Ryan, who are more capable of inflicting long-term damage.
@f00l I’m actually much more concerned about his cabinet appointees, who can wreak untold havoc quietly under the radar.
@moondrake
I am too. The only one I really like so far is at Defense.
But Trump thrives on unpredictability. If he thinks he can go nuts and gain ratings by going populist on something the Republican establishment hates, he won’t care what they think. He would cheerfully defy all of Congress and enjoy the experience.
So I’m booking Trump’s weirdnesses will keep some of the stuff and add agendas in check.
This might be an enormous fantasy. We’ll find out.
@moondrake They are the real movers and shakers, usually (but not always) in concert with the party bosses. The best safeguard is the press, and since there will be little in the way of intelligent words coming out of the WH, they will be concentrating on other government output. (pointing at press).
/giphy reporters
@f00l I do not want to be part of an uncontrolled case study in idiocy when high functioning sociopathic/ borderline personality disorder/ narcissistic, etc. people with empathy lobotomies run the show with few checks and balances in place thank you very much. Too much at stake here.
@OldCatLady The problem is that the press only reports issues that can be summarized in a soundbite, while bureaucracies are vastly complex organisms. Violently destructive policy grenades could be dropped, the significance of which would be hard for the press to understand and all but impossible to explain to the public. Here’s one that’s easily explained but got little press. Early in my bureaucratic career, a president wanted to be able to say he’d reduced poverty during his tenure. He hadn’t. So to enable him to say he had, the definition of poverty was ratcheted down. The process whereby this was done was complex and hard to understand, but the results were not. Tens of thousands of people who were poor yesterday were poor no longer. A magic trick! The problem was their income was the same, but they were no longer eligible to receive help through government funded programs. Kids and old folks literally went hungry, kicked off school lunch and drive-a-meal programs, so this man could claim to have helped them. I have other examples, but that one’s pretty clear cut.
@moondrake
41?
@Kidsandliz
I don’t either. But I seem to have few options at the moment.
@f00l 40
/image grab all the things
TL;DR
there’s a lot of text on here
ok, i’ve read a bit more. it appears we have put aside the notion that we won’t talk about politics and other ‘touchy topics’ here?
/giphy touchy topics
Only people that don’t like Obama, Clintons & Bushes either have ANY right to criticize Trump. Because Hillbitch is way, way, way worse. Way worse.
Trump = Peace & Equality (& lots and lots of bullshit)
Clintons & Bushes = War & Discrimination (& even more bullshit)
Obama = a failure? I really think he honestly wanted the best, but failed at everything.
Also, fuck both Democrats and Republicans, I hate them equally. My support is not party-affiliated.
(Go Libertarians though)
@serpent You’ve successfully gotten me off this thread. Thanks!
@serpent
You’re a libertarian?
Thanks so much for telling me what thoughts or speech I am entitled to.
I suppose in your libertarian world I don’t have the moral or intellectual right to assess differently than you?
hillary did win the popular vote by almost 3 million. mostly because of California.
California Presidential Race Results: Hillary Clinton Wins
Candidate Party Votes
Hillary Clinton Democrat Dem. 8,753,788
Donald J. Trump Republican Rep. 4,483,810
Gary Johnson Libertarian Lib. 478,499
Jill Stein Green Green 278,657
let, california secede from the United States and become an independent country. i’m ok with that.
it is a big state. big enough to be a small country.
it’s what they want. so, let the people of usa vote to release california from the union. i think the voters would let them.
@mick so putting all the political stuff aside, when did California decide they wanted to secede? As a native Californian, this is the first I’m hearing of it.
@mick @conandlibrarian especially given that California is wholly dependent on what would become water imports from the United States.
@jbartus
Any discussion of either CA or TX successfully separating peaceably and without legal blockages (with or without friendly relations to the remaining US) bring up a number of complex issues. CA could get water. Easily and legally, with some bumps in the beginning. CA and Texas could both acquire any lacking resources and industries and could afford to do so.
In such a circumstance, both CA and TX might not be as well off as they are today, or they might be even better off within a decade or so. The remaining US would almost certainly be worse off.
(FWIW, I am not one of those Texans who favors secession).
@jbartus Really? “Wholly dependent”?
Oh, hey, look! A website!
What was it you said to @OldCatLady earlier in this thread?
@conandlibrarian Yeah that’s us, Texas. I guess for the next four years that’s on the back burner. Although maybe not, the Bushes opposed Trump.
@conandlibrarian Here’s the website for information regarding the idea of California seceding http://www.yescalifornia.org/
@mick I’ve been saying that for yrs now. I’ll even go as far as saying, split the country. Let them have their half, take all their pet projects and sjws with them and have their utopia they think they’ll have and leave us the hell alone and, get nothing from us. Not one thing.
@DaveInSoCal So a dude who lives in Russia is heading the movement??
/giphy crazy
@lseeber
/giphy cranky monday morning
@conandlibrarian
@Kevin
You get 1.5 million Stars. ⭐️
@f00l if I post 1.5 million time I can count on you to star each one!
@Kevin
Stars for the Stars! ⭐️
The President is wasting no time in the process to dismantle and repeal the Affordable Care Act:
https://consumerist.com/2017/01/21/trump-executive-order-directs-federal-agencies-to-scale-back-obamacare-could-remove-individual-mandate/
@dashcloud He’s so butt hurt over how much love Obama got, he’s going to scorch earth everything Obama had a hand in.
I get the feeling if he could burn down the White House and rebuild it (at taxpayer expense, of course), he’d do it.
@lisaviolet
@dashcloud I was afraid this was on the horizon, it’s why I kept my crappy overpriced high deductible health plan from my work when I retired. If we’d gotten a Dem I planned on doing some shopping for a better plan through ACA, but with Trump I guess I’m stuck with what I have (and counting myself lucky as it’s more than most people I know will have).
@moondrake I love it! The Russian architecture on the ends just really put the finishing touches on it, make it all come together.
@moondrake
That sort of transformation if the White House is unrealistic. The final version would have far more gilt.
This is how his penthouse looks
@f00l Completely wrong. His penthouse is quite subdued and tastefully decorated in subtle blues and greens, according to Kellyanne Conway and her “alternative facts” about the President. And the crowd for the inauguration was UUUUGE!, the biggest in history, and much bigger than the crowd on Saturday. The President is enormously popular, won’t release his taxes because no one cares about that, and is working very hard to be the President of ALL the people. All true, if you look at things from a certain angle and accept the alternative facts. Don’t let the cognitive dissonance hit you on the way out of reality.
@rockblossom
I wonder how he looks in a Louis XIV wig?
@f00l Not enough gold. Always better in gold:
@rockblossom The trouble is that his followers are already being gobsmacked with cognitive dissonance. Their alternatives are deny the facts or admit they made a mistake and are going to be screwed. 99% of the people who live around here voted the dump. The mental gymnastics some of them use in the face of concrete evidence is to deny that things are happening that bodes poorly for them, and the rest of us who are not wealthy, is rather (sadly) impressive.
@Kidsandliz They’ll find a way to blame it on the Dems. When people complain they can’t afford healthcare, they’ll say the ACA was so expensive it bankrupted the Reps brilliant secret health care plan so they couldn’t implement it. When people complain they can’t find work, they’ll claim that the Dems drove the businesses overseas and they are valiantly trying to bring them back (even their own overseas shops) but people have to hold on till the Holy Free Market creates an environment friendly to US manufacturing (rofcol). When people complain that their groundwater is contaminated and they can’t breathe the air, they’ll find some way to blame it on the Dems environmental regulations making it too expensive for businesses to modernize. And when a massive hurricane smashes the eastern seaboard, they’ll say it was because those godless Dems pissed off God.
@moondrake
You smell the fart, the party says “wasn’t us” and as they walk out of the room, you see the brown stains on the seats of their pants…
Not too often that I post things from youtube (and even worse, my darlings, I saw it first on Facebook). Still, this intelligent (really) comparison of the two presidents (titled Trump Inauguration 2017) is worth watching. Twice.
@Shrdlu My friend, a theater teacher who did his dissertation on Shakespeare and hates Trump is going to love this.
@Shrdlu
O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
@Shrdlu Shared, with glee.
@Shrdlu you’ve forced me out of my secret continued reading of this thread. That was amazing.
@Shrdlu That was beautiful.
This made me laugh.
Yeah, honor among dirtbags really isn’t a thing.
A German magazine had a body language expert analyze Friday’s performance. It’s objective - and devastating. (note: if you right click on the page, you should see an option to translate to English) No U.S. media has dared publish such an article.
http://www.manager-magazin.de/koepfe/donald-trump-koerpersprache-bei-amtseinfuehrung-a-1131085.html
@OldCatLady Wow, that was interesting.
@OldCatLady Manager Magazin is known for its liberal bias, the claim that the article is objective is spurious.
@jbartus We await with breathless interest the corresponding illiberal analysis. Please furnish a citation.
@OldCatLady so just to be clear, you publish a link to a liberal source doing an analysis you yourself claim nobody else has dared to do and claiming objectivity then when the lack of objectivity of the source is noted you defend the source on the principle that a contradictory source doing the same kind of analysis (the one nobody else has done, remember?) has not been provided. Am I missing anything here?
Sorry I’m not playing this game. You’ve proven how well you fact check your sources on multiple occasions, most recently (prior to this (as best I’ve noticed)) when you posted falsified images claiming Trump ripped his speech off from Bee Movie and Avatar, this is just the latest such occurrence. I’m not even saying the source you linked is incorrect in their analysis, I am specifically calling out your claim of the source’s objectivity, nothing else.
@jbartus Actually, reading the translation of the article (I just went to a website and had them translate the entire webpage which was a little rough around the edges but between that and some german I remember I think I understood all of what they were saying), what they talk about is standard body language interpretation that has been in the literature (and validated) for years - for example how he touched Obama is a way to show dominance. That is done to women all the time by males, or by superiors to subordinates… The video clips they show there document him doing things like that. I know nothing about the website but some of the basics of body language I am familiar.
@jbartus I admit I’m a little curious how you know that, considering it’s a German language publication and I’ve never heard of it in any context.
@dashcloud Alternative facts.
@dashcloud I have friends in Germany who I talk to on a regular basis, I have also been endeavoring to learn German. I’m a bit of a Deutschophile. We talk about many things not the least of which being the various ways activities in our respective countries are being reported on by our countries’ respective media outlets.
@Kidsandliz as stated, I am not even questioning the findings made on the basis of the clips therein I am challenging the claim of an objective source. The video clips selected for analysis are just as subject to bias as any other cherry picking done by the press. Further, while there are many legitimate uses for body language interpretation it is far from a precise science which is why, for example, it’s not admissible in court.
@jbartus
Speaking of alternative facts…
@jbartus Well they may have cherry picked, but certainly some of what they cherry picked certainly seems consistent with other behaviors he exhibits that seem common.
@justbuyit cute.
@Kidsandliz which is all well and good, as I said I am not arguing against the interpretation, I am arguing against the claim of an objective source. I didn’t use liberal in the 4-letter-word manner many do. I simply stated a fact, they are a liberal publication, Trump is a conservative president, they aren’t going to fall over themselves to portray him in a positive light.
@jbartus So the article is not qualified to interpret body language, but you are? So many of the observations are obvious to anyone, especially his inattention to anyone but himself, and the great contrast between Obama and Trump.
I have resolved not to argue with you, you are so maddening in your twisted arrogant viewpoint. You always have to have the last word.
Let’s see if I’m right . . .
@KDemo so just to be clear, am I having the last word if I take the time to answer a question? You did ask one.
I’m going to assume not, so here goes: At no point did I either question the article writer’s qualifications to interpret body language nor claim to have such qualifications myself. I did, however, object to the statement that said article was objective as claimed by @OldCatLady here:
I stated, far more politely than I could have, that the publication in question is known for its liberal bias and that the claim of objectivity was therefore spurious, nothing more. What ensued from there was the result of replying to those who replied to me.
I’m happy to let you have the last word with regards to how I have twisted anything.
@jbartus
@jbartus
It’s not clear to me from @OldCatLady’s post whether the “it’s objective” quote refers to the interpretation given by the body language expert, the specific article, or the magazine as a whole.
Is there a reason to assume she meant specifically the magazine?
I think some of the reaction you are getting here might arise from people finding that your posts sometimes come across as carrying a strong intent to sort of correct other’s thoughts and perceptions; for example, to correct perceived errors in other people’s thoughts regarding political issues.
It’s kinda a matter of tone, not always explicitly the exact meaning of your words.
If that’s not your intent as a form of subtext or connotation, please take a look at the “tone” or “vibe” of your posts.
@f00l thanks for the input. To address your question I assumed she meant the article as a whole, I’m not sure I’d treat the expert’s opinions as separate from the same especially given that the expert himself is the author. Even without having read the article in question and seeing pretty clear indications of an agenda in the choices of interpretation, knowing that the publication is liberally biased makes the bias of any article they publish likely. This is further supported by the fact that the writer/expert is an employee of the magazine as noted at the end.
It would be like if I linked a pro-Trump article from Fox News written by Bill O’Reilly and claimed it was objective, I don’t think there’s a single person on this forum, including myself and except maybe this thread’s starter, who would let me get away with such a claim.
As for tone or vibe, no that’s not really my intent but (at the risk of sounding like this topic’s starter) since it’s been made pretty clear that we have an abundance of pro-liberal anti-Trump posters here I do feel like I need to be on the defensive before I’ve even started if I want to discuss these topics in any manner other than blind agreement. Maybe that’s coming through in a way that isn’t the most friendly. Then again it’s text-based communication which is notoriously different to convey emotions and such through.
I don’t care about changing what people think about Trump, what I do care about is people being overeager to believe the worst without doing due diligence (movie quote claims) or representing something as being objective that isn’t. We are responsible for the things we say and/or share and doing so carelessly does us all a disservice. That is the main reason I commented at all on the link, as I’ve maintained since the start. If I just wanted to be contradictory I certainly could have done so otherwise.
@KDemo Hahaha.
/giphy you’re right
@OldCatLady Body language is telling. Oh, that first meeting in the White House.
Melania Trump’s meeting with Michelle Obama was cordial. They looked at each other and talked. Mrs. Obama was relaxed, but Mrs. Trump was not. Look at the hands, because the hands always know.
Donald Trump and Barack Obama. Look at the position of the hands: desperate fig leaf and modified fig leaf protecting the genitals:
@jbartus
If body language interpretation is a form of science to a degree (it’s my uninformed impression that it has some cred), then - if the expert interpreted Trump’s body language correctly - a reasonable claim of potential or possibly actual non-bias can be made. No obvious reason to immediately assume otherwise. The fact that this article was published in a publication you say is known to be liberal does not invalidate potential objectivity in the article, provided the interpretation was done correctly and not selectively.
I find the O’Reilly comparison ineffective. The article writer is supposedly a trained expert. If he acted within the bounds of the discipline, he gets some objectivity cred, based on the cred accrued to the discipline. O’reilly’s cred is in being a talented talk-show host and political provocateur. Fine, but hardly the same sort of training and talent as that of a trained practioner of a specific social sciences or behavioral discipline. O’Reilly appears to have zero objectivity training, tho he is quite gifted at public crowd-pleasing debate (not an objectivity-related talent). I take O’Reilly as being an expert at his craft, that of conservative talk-show host. And only at that. So I fail to see the relevance.
I read both the NYT and the WSJ from time to time. One is considered centrist to center-left, generally speaking; the other is considered center to center right, sometimes hard-right, depending, based on media counts of loaded words and phrases.
I make zero assumptions about the specific content of a specific article based on that. Those are both reputable pubs - I can prob spot them pushing a POV thru omission or commission. Plenty of what each of them publishes is damned solid and carries very little bias, as we currently use that term in political media.
I don’t know about this German pub, but is everything about it biased or doesn’t seem it just kinda lean now and then? That makes a diff. I also don’t know about the qualifications of the body languages age expert. But he just may have done his job well. Or not. So what?
Yes there may be potential bias in that article. But how much does this topic weigh and how much is this topic really not worth after 10 seconds have passed? Let people do their growling and their humorous remarks.
since Trump’s body behavior on a single occasion is hardly hard news with obvious political or econ or foreign relations or other hot-button issue hard relevance, if I were you I’d point out my caveats and let it go, not make a lecture out of it, calling people out.
Just my thinking and my take - think what you like, do as you please. I think you’d get a better response if you dialed it back a bit. It often seems to feel like an attempt at a corrective lecture, the intensity of which seems mystifying given the weight of the provocation. Over-responding can kill an argument quickly, unless the originator is a media master. People look at what feels like an over-response and start asking “what’s the real problem here?” (And that’s a legit and logical reaction under some circumstances, to some arguments.)
Yes, the majority of people who post frequently and write well here are center to progressive, or they’re neither, but they don’t like Trump. And for we who don’t like Trump, having someone like that, with his known shortcomings, in the White House is more than a bit scary and depressing at times. And yes, there is some growling and growsing, and some humor and some throwaway cheap shots, like you’d expect in a casual conversation among friends. So what? Is that a big deal; as long as we don’t behave insultingly toward others without some clear provocation? Not everything needs to be a formal debate.
that’s the known audience, and we are, whatever our politics, which vary, mostly your damned friends. Every good communicator tailors the choice of words and phrasing and tone toward what is likely to be effective with a given audience.
You clearly have interesting thoughts and write fairly well. No one wants you to not speak your thoughts. I would have you, were it up to me, just speak to us as though you know we are actually your friends, and not the an audience to be hit on the head with thought hammers, whether or not we agree on politics; and not caught out in errors and then pummeled for them.
@rockblossom Quite a few analyses of Trump’s body language are being published. People who don’t like what they say should blame the actor, not the publisher. I think the inaugural ball dances were the saddest things I’ve seen in awhile. http://usuncut.com/politics/body-language-experts-trump-inauguration/
@OldCatLady I don’t think Trump is prepared for the level of scrutiny he’s in for over the next four years. He’s been in the public eye, but he’s been a private businessman, free to act as he chose. As president he has, to some extent, become the property of the American people. This is true of everyone in Public Service, you give up some of your freedoms to serve, and none more so than the President. I just don’t think Trump gets that, he has no idea how to control his body language and facial expressions or to pretend to be listening when someone else is speaking. You don’t have to be a trained expert to see his grimaces and fretting when he’s not in the spotlight, his tension and lack of cordiality when interacting with others. I don’t feel sorry for him at all, though, this is what he wanted. If he didn’t understand its nature that’s on him. But I do feel sorry for his family, as I feel sorry for anybody when someone else’s political aspirations drag them into the spotlight to be flayed by the public and press.
@moondrake
I keep hoping that reasoned, critical, “objective” (insofar as we can achieve such), non-knee-jerk responses by the vast majority of all voters in all areas will become the norm.
And that voters will demand far more of their various news-sources and start rejecting political-bias buzzwords and labels as an automatic response to hearing them. And I hope we rise above “post-truth”.
But we’re not there yet.
@jbartus you do not have to be pro-liberal to be anti Trump. Those are two different concepts. You can be anti Trump because he lies, rips off contractors, appears to have no ethics nor empathy, does not think before he speaks or tweets… Being against that says nothing about whether or not someone is fundamentally liberal, conservative or something in between.
I feel like this little guy at the moment
@conandlibrarian Feeling a little bare?
All hail Führer Trump!
Other countries are definitely listening to him. I’m pretty sure they’re impressed. The Netherlands certainly are.
@OldCatLady That was amazing. My dad is working over there right now, forwarding this to him.
A few moderately well-known European publications are expressing alarm. "From now on, the most powerful person on the planet, along with his entourage made up primarily of billionaires like himself, will be regularly stomping on that which the international community has spent decades negotiating with effort and care."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/commentary-an-international-front-against-trump-a-1130905.html
@OldCatLady
Looks to be a good article. Haven’t done more than a quick skim yet.
Along with other more rational, considered, and serious measures, they need to bribe Trump with praise and apparent willingness to think he’s great and play into some of his ideas. Putin can manipulate him. Why not everyone?
Trump responds to that.
@f00l They have an entire section on Drumpf. Other countries are equally appalled. Americans living in Europe are having a difficult time right now.
@OldCatLady interesting read, thanks
@justbuyit it is unnecessary and unkind to call someone a douche because they don’t totally agree with your thoughts and perspectives. you all, are getting scarily intolerant. the everything you say you hate, the most in people ?? you are fast and surely becoming.
@mick - I didn’t call him a douche because he “doesn’t totally agree with my thoughts and perspectives”. The possibility that he may hold a contrary political perspective or subscribe to a differing ideology than that of myself or any others had absolutely nothing to do with the image I posted.
@justbuyit ok. i can be wrong. please tell me the reasons, why? you posted this image about him?
@mick - damn man you ain’t injured so it really begs the question as to why you seem to give so so so many giant fucks unless you are just so god damm dense that you can’t see that @jbartus was acting like a know it all douche and came back and posted in an emotionally charged subthread when he really should have made like Elsa in Frozen and just let it go - kind of like maybe what you should do now IMO.
He ain’t a bad guy by ANY means - this @jbartus guy - but he does come off sometimes as offputting and seriously it is plainly obvious from reading around here that the guy can fight his own fucking battles which it doesn’t to me even appear that there is one here. he ain’t saying shit, so why are you?
Who the fuck is acting like a little snowflake now, huh mick? It ain’t @jbartus - so maybe you might look in a mirror.
And b4 u get your frilly pretty pink panties all up in a bunch about the fact I don’t have anything to do with it either - you are correct! i don’t - anymore than you do.
Seriously STFU and stop keeping shit boiling over - if you can’t see how a little bit of criticism was warranted to him in this instance up there than you really don’t have any empathy or couth yourself or even the ability to read and comprehend on a emotional third grade level.
@mehtherfucker Booyah.
@mick while I appreciate the support @mehtherfucker is correct, if there was a battle I cared about fighting I’d be fighting it myself. Once people start resorting to just posting images and/or name calling any chance at a meaningful conversation has been lost.
If justbuyit wants to think I’m a douche that’s their prerogative, it became apparent that no matter what I said I was just spinning my wheels without getting anywhere useful so I dropped the subject.
Honestly I just wish people would keep politics off of Meh in its entirety or, if they absolutely must discuss politics, keep it to a single thread. Sadly this shit has been rearing its ugly head in thread after thread after thread. What can you do?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@mick just to clarify when I said @mehtherfucker was correct I meant up to the point where I agree I can fight my own battles. The rest was all unnecessary garbage name calling and such that I neither agree with nor endorse.
@jbartus i knew what you meant.
i wasn’t champion (you) per se. every meh contributor should be free to voice their opinions in a respectful way. with more dialogue perhaps??? not with just insults or belittlement.
@mehtherfucker soooooo, who, is the know it all douche??
at this point, you could not think less of me.
you said, than you really don’t have any empathy or couth yourself or even the ability to read and comprehend on a emotional third grade level.
so, my third grade self says… you are not a very nice boy.
@mick - wow. was established a while back that i am black so way to go with the racism (calling me boy in the way you did at the end with the elipses making damn sure to call attention to it) - really surprised you just didn’t flat out call me nigger. guess it was possible for me to think less of you
@mehtherfucker
@jbartus
Hypocrite much??
@justbuyit no? Unless I am much mistaken @mehtherfucker was not being sincere or serious in the least when they claimed racism and such, so in the interest of injecting levity I found what I thought to be a funny Spongebob version of the “Not sure if serious…” meme. Very different from posting such a thing in a serious manner in response to people who are posting long, thought out, serious posts.
@jbartus Yeah it is so nothing like the know it all and assumptive shit that got you called a douche in the first place.
The more I read your posts outside of one or two threads where you are actually fairly damn cool the more I realize that 90% of the deal with you has to be a combination of an issue of youth (immaturity) combined with a propensity to put wikipedia and a couple of other sources into your own words as it fits what you believe your intended meaning should be. Not to say you don’t have an original thought, you do, but most the time it ain’t, IMO.
@justbuyit hey you’re entitled to your own opinion, you’re also entitled to be wrong, and I’ll defend to the death your right to both. If I’m wrong and @mehtherfucker was being serious about claiming racism then you’re right the image was misplaced. That said I think you’re just upset I didn’t give you the attention you wanted from your image and now you’re lashing out. Reply to this as you wish, I won’t be.
@jbartus I’m fairly certain he or she is black. I’m not lashing out at you, I don’t ever say anything - or type it for that matter - because I’m looking for attention. You don’t respond when people tell you politely that you’re coming off as a know it all, thought maybe the image I posted would maybe get you to stop and think for a sec about how you may be perceived by others here especially as you seem to have an investment in the relationships and discussions here overall. IMO it just goes towards the immaturity I see in you. I really bet that in 10 years you’ll be a much better conversationalist - and for all of the pleading around here for people to just listen you certainly don’t seem to get the point a lot of times when it is critical of you.
Just don’t be a douche. You don’t have to be. And you’re better when you’re not.
@justbuyit I was thinking about this “douche” thing. (Not singling you out, but I was thinking about it, who knows why some of the things that pop into our heads, pop into our heads, even explained it to my ever patient husband last night and you bringing it up gives me the opportunity to throw in my two cents about the word “douche”.)
The first definition of douche is a “shower of water”. Now, that makes me think of something clean and refreshing.
When did it become derogatory, as in the second definition (looking at Google). “An obnoxious or contemptible person, usually used of a man”. Is it because douching is a girl thing?
I dunno, just thinking about it.
Calling someone a colostomy bag would make more sense.
Or a shit bag. A shit bag is always good.
@lisaviolet
From a page where the Google took me:
Swear words are an indelible part of any dialect, and no discussion of spoken English would be complete without their mention. Which brings us to today’s topic, the meteoric rise of the American English epithet “douchebag.”
31st Century-anthropologists, bereft of the electronic media now at our disposal, might be flummoxed as to how douche, a word meaning “shower” in French, came to mean something along the lines of “pompous jerk.” So it helps to look at the origins of douchebag (or douche), from this Wikipedia entry:
A douche ( /ˈduːʃ/) is a device used to introduce a stream of water into the body for medical or hygienic reasons, or the stream of water itself.
To make this more explicit, a douchebag is part of an apparatus used to clean certain bodily orifices. A douche bag, technically speaking, is what contains the refuse created as a by-product of this cleansing process. Ick.
I must admit that douchebag (as an insult applied to people) didn’t enter my lexicon until the 2000’s. For many years, in fact, I assumed that the term was a 21st-Century coinage. After doing several searches using Google Books, however, it’s clear this isn’t the case. The first usage of douchebag/douche bag that I could find in the pejorative sense dates back to at least 1951, in the classic novel From Here to Eternity (here an adjective):
“The trouble with you, Pete,” the voice that did not seem to come with him but from that cigaret said savagely, “is that you can’t see further than that douchebag nose of yours.”
So douchebag seems to have been used in a vulgar context as far back as World War II or thereabouts. It’s worth noting, however, that this is the ONLY usage of the type found in 1950’s literature: all other examples of douchebag/douche bag refer to medicine or hygiene. I doubt the term was in popular currency at the time.
The next such usage doesn’t appear until 1964, in a stream-of-consciousness passage of another famous novel, Hubert Selby’s Last Exit to Brooklyn:
“…and she yelled to Jack to comeon and she/d fuckin blind not like that fuckin douchebag he was with and someone yelled we/re coming and she was dragged down the steps …”
Still, examples of the pejorative douchebag in the 1960s are few and far between. And seeing as that decade was famed for its relaxation of literary puritanism, I’d hazard to guess it was still uncommon.
It was only in the following three decades that douchebag seemed to make some headway. There are about a dozen examples of the word being used pejoratively in literature between 1970-1980. In the 80s, this increases to several dozen.* And by the 1990s, this skyrockets to somewhere between 100-200.
But it’s really the 2000s where we see “douchebag” take off. Google books records the word being used 868 times, the overwhelming majority of which appear to be non-medical. This was truly the decade of the “douchebag.”
If douchebag appeared to be an epithet dating back to at least the 1950s, why did it not become as popular until the 21st Century? My personal theory relates to the fact that douching (the act of cleaning bodily orifices with a stream of water) has become steadily less popular as a hygienic technique over the past fifty years. This is likely a result of medical warnings such as this (from the 2005 health book What Women Need to Know):
At one time, doctors routinely instructed their female patients to douche; however, that is no longer the case. Studies have shown that there is a higher rate of infection of the reproductive tract among women who douche that among women who do not.
So let’s put the pieces together. In 1960, when douching was a much more common practice and perhaps more prominent in the public imagination, douchebag would have had a much more disgusting connotation, and likely would have been avoided for this reason. But in the 21st-Century, at a time when many people barely remember what douching was to begin with, it might be taken as a less offensive insult.
One interesting pop cultural example is that douche and douchebag appears in the novelization of “ET: The Extra-terrestrial.” I can’t recall if the word is used in the film or not.
I use douche and douchebag interchangeably.
@justbuyit Interesting. I always thought the bag was what held the douching water or solution. I had no idea it was the actual collection device.
Which is a whole 'nother place for my mind to go…not sure of the logistics and wondering how this would be done with just two hands…
I guess I could find it on Google, right? lol!
@justbuyit
This is informal; just my take:
I don’t recall that the idea of female douching was considered disgusting in the 1960’s. Unless the person who might be using this procedure was consider physically somewhat disgusting.
It was considered a kind of “private” word you only used in conversation with close friends and in certain circumstances, but the word as applied to the activity was not pejorative. Products for this were advertised on TV on prime time hits. The products had assorted scents and came in various colors. The ad copy usually referenced being extra-clean. I think most people thought that women who practiced this were likely quite pleasant to be around, the practice was not assumed to be secretly “dirty” in some way.
Your literary journey thru the history of the pejorative use of “douche” and “douchebag” is interesting, but it doesn’t cover the spoken uses. I am pretty sure I was familiar with the terms as insults in conversation in the early 1970’s. Not uncommon.
Not certainly this still applies in 2017 - but in the beginning, the insulting uses were directed almost exclusively at males. A female who douched was still seen as someone who cared about grooming, tho most females did not douche, AFAIK, and they were not thought of as being “less clean”.
The use of a word often associated with female life or female body parts (that most males aren’t quite comfortable thinking about non-sexually) as applied to a male is the original source of the “insult factor”. This is true of many insults. Telling a female that she wears “pink panties” is hardly an insult and might well offered as a compliment or an unwanted bid for sexual attention. Same with other perceived terms that might be a normal part of female life in that era - such as wearing an apron. Whereas, telling a male he’s wearing pink panties or an apron (non-BBQ) in a non-humorous or contentious or pile-on competitive conversation is clearly an insult, directed often at perceived masculinity, and sometimes a serious insult.
And of course the other, non-female-specific medical uses of douching and the term “douchebag” hardly refer to pleasant practices. Most people don’t want to be around for that. So another source of insult emphasis.
Nowadays douching is still practiced medically. But it’s not practiced - or only rarely practiced - anymore by fastidious females who are highly susceptible to certain forms of advertising.
Since the medical use of these terms is uncommon outside medical settings, and since we love to swear and many of us love to insult in this decade; and since some people still seem to love to throw “female” words at males thinking it’s a strong and degrading form of insult (my reaction is usually that the person who makes such an insult is temporarily extra-lame), the terms “douche” and “douchebag” are now understood outside medical setting to be almost exclusively an insult, of the sort of the insulting party hope is unanswerable. and the insults appear to be applied across as gender lines.
@lisaviolet I’m fond of “jackhole”. Technically not profanity, yet entirely evocative thereof.
@mehtherfucker no racism, in my comment. i didn’t know you were black. just like you didn’t know, i’m an old lady granny. i did feel, your original comment was aggressively, overly mean. nothing more to it than that.
@caffeine_dude
Why did his previously orange hair go to cream-colored? Will it go back to orange soon, or cycle through various colors?
@f00l http://amzn.to/2jmPVy0
@f00l Perhaps the orange hair against the background of gold curtains made him look bald.
@caffeine_dude
@lisaviolet
@rockblossom
Via his hair, over the last 20-30 years. he has boosted a segment of the tech industry.
@rockblossom
@caffeine_dude ‘…but we have a serious problem in this country of lazy citizenry who are willing to accept anything that is said practically anywhere so long as what is said aligns with their personal beliefs about an issue…’ I am shocked, shocked that this image is accepted without question. It’s clearly retouched, because there is NO ORANGE. Where is the outrage?
The President now has some competition for Twitter followers: Half An Onion In A Bag
@rockblossom - Gotta find humor where we can. I retweeted and shared by text and email. Thanks.
A primer -
A sound track! Sounds just like them, so it must be real.
http://www.capsteps.com/sounds/trump-acres-1612.mp3
I don’t care how you voted, this is funny.
/youtube bad lip reading inauguration
@RiotDemon I’ve seen their Walking Dead and some other show parodies. Their stuff would be funnier if it didn’t careen off into the bushes narratively. But when it’s on track it’s pretty funny. The voice actor for Trump sounds quite like him.
@RiotDemon Why, oh why didn’t they hack the actual inauguration sound system and put this in? Sooner or later someone is going to manage it. I’m not sure, though, how we will tell the difference between hacked voices and the actual verbiage. Both dart around wildly, leaving listeners to say ‘Did he really just say that?’
@OldCatLady The person has to have already spoken to create the lip synch. They can’t do it in advance.
@moondrake The oath does not vary. If it did, he would have put ‘yuuuge’ and ‘bigly’ and ‘the best’ into it.
@OldCatLady But the pacing does. The lip flaps wouldn’t match, it would be like watching a badly dubbed kick flick. Also, they base much of the dialogue on facial expressions and body language, which to me is what makes it most amusing. Often their dialogue is much more in keeping with the body language and facial expressions than what was actually said, which makes the voice over feel like it speaks what they were actually thinking.
Can’t we lock this thread? I feel like everyone has said what they wanted to say.
@conandlibrarian yeah really
@conandlibrarian @cranky1950 Are you obligated to open it?
@conandlibrarian If you want it to stop, don’t post on it and bump it to the top. There’s no need to artificially silence it, if you don’t want to read it, don’t. I skip probably 75% of forum threads as they are on subjects of no interest to me. When everyone loses interest it will naturally disappear.
@Pantheist We can’t help ourselves
@moondrake
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!
@unixrab I’m on a coin.
@Pantheist can we get @jont to put a few up for sale?
Go Canada!
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/blondehaired-moth-with-small-genitals-named-after-donald-trump/
They say they named it just for the hair.
@mfladd Restroom has reopened.
@sammydog01 crap!
@mfladd indeed.
@sammydog01 ewwwww…
Trump is kicking so much ass already. So hype for the Supreme Court nominee in one week’s time! Keystone Pipeline is back on! The wall is gonna be built! He’s really getting this shit done!
/image God Emperor Trump
@Dizavid Gold is heavy and soft.
@moondrake A heart of gold is cold, hard and yellow.
@Dizavid And I don’t doubt for one minute that’s how he sees himself. To quote your god…
Sad.
@Dizavid
@lisaviolet and a small winkie.
@Dizavid Guess who’s paying for the wall- (hint- it’s not the Mexicans!).
@dashcloud The Wall is profoundly stupid, wasteful, ineffective, ugly and damaging. The part of it that’s built so far. It was a bad idea and it didn’t work, so we’re going to triple the investment.
@moondrake The other problem with the wall is it will affect the natural travel of animals. They will be blocked and if they migrate back and forth across the border they will no longer be able to do that. I’d bet there is going to be a fairly large ‘unintended’ consequence for wildlife - and likely dump doesn’t care either.
@Kidsandliz
"Unintended consequences" like making the independent contractors rich?
I think we’ll be seeing more of this as the weeks go by.
( R ) or ( D ) … I’m just glad we can make fun of the president again without being labeled as [ insert epithet ]
Prez jokes/skits/memes are the best!
@unixrab Amen!
The Doomsday clock just advanced- It’s now only 2½ minutes to midnight, “the closest the clock has been to Doomsday since 1953, after the United States tested its first thermonuclear device, followed months later by the Soviet Union’s hydrogen bomb test.”
Fuck
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/01/26/the-doomsday-clock-just-moved-again-its-now-two-and-a-half-minutes-to-midnight/?utm_term=.f6434a431a74
“Never before has the Bulletin decided to advance the clock largely because of the statements of a single person. But when that person is the new president of the United States, his words matter.”
@KDemo Washington post is problematic, but yeah. Fuck. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-science-doomsdayclock-idUSKBN15A2JJ
@Pantheist - I was under the impression that the Post had a conservative bent, but have changed my opinion. I believe it is fair and accurate. Did you feel they manipulated the facts here?
Seems to be the case these days that most people choose the news they agree with the most. I’m partly guilty, but I really feel outlets like NPR and MSNBC are smarter and more honest than fox and breitbart. We recently had this discussion in another thread.
Responsible media has an uphill battle ahead.
Fuck.
@KDemo I couldn’t actually read the article since I’m not registered with them, but I know my employer ranks them as a medium bias. Reuters I have as little to no bias. If the articles are similar, than I’d say that the wapo article is fine.
@KDemo for comparisons sake fox is listed as “very high bias” and breibart is “medium to very high”
@Pantheist Fox bias? But there motto is “fair & balanced”. I feel so mislead.
@Pantheist
If you have Amazon prime you can get WaPo free for 6 months then discounted thereafter.
Their election coverage was excellent. They prob are as good as anyone on insider coverage
It’s gonna be OK, I promise…
@unixrab - I so do not want to invoke your wrath, but it’s really not going to be okay. Millions will be negatively affected, starting with losing health care. Moot point, I guess, when threatened with nuclear annihilation.
You will not invoke my wrath…with civility like that! But — I realize you are truly afraid… Let me reassure you… It will be OK… We’ve been here before and the fear was unfounded. If (and let’s put a bookmark here so we can check back from time to time) things go sideways I’ll admit it and apologize but… Things are gonna be just fine… I know this for sure and I predicted the election in June of 2015 AND the electoral college (I predicted 309T-231C).(AND WON 5 bottles of bourbon (the good stuff))… Rest & rest assured!
@unixrab hop on predictit- you could make good money.
@unixrab So, medicare will not be privatized, social security won’t be gutted, my friends from the south (Mexico) will still be welcome here, my friend who’s husband works for the federal prison system will not lose his pension when it’s time for him to retire (2 years).
We won’t lose our health insurance and the rates won’t skyrocket. Clean energy will still be a thing and the air will still be breathable without a mask.
Okay. We’ll see.
@unixrab @lisaviolet @pantheist
Having lived through (and remembering) the Cuban Missle Crisis, the Kennedy assassinations, race riots in Watts and Detroit, Viet Nam, the MLK assassination, Nixon resigning, Clinton Impeachment, and my favorite the 60’s I know we will be just fine. Each one of these events was a sign of the Apocalypse and an end of the world as we knew it. But the sun still rose in the east and set in the wet, dogs and children still ran up to be petted and hugged, and we still had to pay taxes.
We will be just fine.
@Mehrocco_Mole amen amen amen
@Mehrocco_Mole
@unixrab
The US is incredibly resilient and mostly improves over time if you take the very long view. The odds of everything going to hell in an unrecoverable way appear not to be large at this moment.
Otoh all of those critical moments in the past could have gone in much worse directions than they did. Each one was a genuine and enormous time of risk that could have gone very badly. We are lucky, I suppose, that those times weren’t worse and that most of us recovered.
The face that we have survived terrible things in the past, or that someone correctly predicted something or other, have only limited weight, or none, regarding the future. The strength of Americans and of our best institutions are what give us resilience. And those are substantial.
They are not, however, sufficient to make our survival and prosperity as a decent and good nation a sure thing. During bad times, many have suffered terribly and lost much, even if the nation as a whole prospered and thrived then or later on.
And in a nuclear age, esp w a president of questionable judgement, and N Korea, and other hotspots in the mix, nothing is guaranteed. Things might possibly go quite badly in ways that take long to recover from. Many people may be badly hurt, in ways that are unrecoverable for them, even if many prosper then or later on. And things might possibly go very, very badly, even if the odds of that appear not large at the moment.
Past survival and success, and the strength and resilience of people and institutions give us much reason to hope. But they are not sufficient to make survival and success certain.
@f00l wisdom the principal thing
@lisaviolet
Yes
Yes
Yes (legally)
Correct
Correct
Correct
Correct
Correct
@unixrab I hope you’re right.
@lisaviolet and arrogant man would say of course but I hope so too
Earlier in this thread @janas posted a list that attempted to explain why President Trump won. My take on it was that she was a person giving her reasons for voting as she did. The personal reasons someone has that resulted in their vote for Trump or Clinton or Kaptain Kangaroo is something they know and is not really something to be debated. But if the best response to those reasons is pointing out a spelling or grammar error than you are making her point for her. We as a society have gotten so PC correct we have forgotten how to listen. We have forgotten how to have a dialog with someone who doesn’t necessarily agree with us.
Here is someone who I think gets it. Trigger Alert: Not President Trump Friendly. This video has 108 million views on Viral Thread.
And now a plea to those leaning both right and left.
People, stop pointing fingers. Stop with the name calling. Start listening. Try to understand the motives behind decisions made. If you just ridicule and belittle that person they will just shake their head and walk away; you will have achieved nothing but a false sense of superiority.
If you think it’s broke work to fix it. BTW: Smashing windows, burning limos, and marching around dressed as female body parts while demanding to not be judged based on those body parts won’t fix anything. Those actions are actually counter-productive. They may make you feel good but you won’t change anyone’s else’s opinions.
[edit] added the last sentence.
@Mehrocco_Mole A hat that when pulled down and makes you look like you have cat’s ears is a “female body part”? I’ve had a hat like this for years, long before this election. I most certainly don’t look at any one of my cats and think “vagina”.
Wearing the hat in the march was a reference to Trump “grab her by the pussy”. A cat is also referred to as a pussy cat. And that is not an alternative fact.
http://www.beaditandweep.com/knit-a-cat-ear-hat-free-pattern/
@lisaviolet I wasn’t referring to the Pussy Hats.
@Mehrocco_Mole It’s not loading for me.
@lisaviolet Try this:
@Mehrocco_Mole I’m seeing it now, on the tablet. It doesn’t really bother me. In all honesty, swastikas, SS symbols, white hoods and robes are much more disturbing to me.
Haven’t seen the video, tablet…
@lisaviolet
Agreed!!! If you want a chuckle look at the response to the woman who demanded the same rights as a gun.
Gun Rights Across America
January 22 at 11:55am ·
This poor lady…
She wants you to wait 72 hours after you go out to buy a woman while you await a background investigation.
She wants women to be banned from entering schools and college campuses.
She wants women banned from polling places on Election Day.
She wants you to pay a fee to the state before you carry a woman on your person.
She wants some women banned simply because they look too scary.
She wants women banned from all airports.
She wants women to be locked up at all times when not in use.
I wholeheartedly disagree with her!!!
Please let me know your opinion of the video.
@Mehrocco_Mole Can’t enter the mindset. It’s like saying, one day I hope men have the same rights as cars, and then listing a bunch of rules that cars must observe that are entirely unapplicable to humans.
@Mehrocco_Mole Re: the gun rights photo, either you’re missing the point or you’re just being silly. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Well said, @moondrake.
@moondrake
It’s called humor. We are all too PC anymore when we can no longer laugh at ourselves and not be offended when no offense was implied.
@Mehrocco_Mole But not everyone finds humor in the same thing. It doesn’t have anything to do with political correctness. I don’t love Lucy. I never have. I don’t like Kathy Griffen. I didn’t like Joan Rivers. PC certainly doesn’t enter in to it, I just don’t find them funny.
And telling me what is funny is kind of condescending.
@Mehrocco_Mole I wasn’t offended, I’m not poo-pooing on someone else’s sense of humor, I literally don’t get it. It’s a complete nonsequitur to me. It could be written in Greek and would make exactly as much sense to me.
@lisaviolet Humor, far more than beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
@moondrake @lisaviolet
And you guys have totally missed the point I have been trying to convey.
followed up with
I did not TELL you what was funny. You state there’s nothing wrong with being silly [humor] and then belittle my sense of humor. If you do not see the humor than please tell me what rights does a gun have that a woman does not? That is a dialog. point counterpoint.
Again, you guys are making my point for me. I am no better than you and you are no better than me. I have a voice and opinions just the same as you. If you belittle my opinions because they don’t match yours than that will serve to make mine stronger to me and that is counter to what you should be doing. One of the reasons HClinton lost is because she didn’t listen to BClinton. He told her and her team they were ignoring the working class Americans in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania…etc. but they poo-pooed him. The results are very apparent.
I am really trying to help here. In four years if you still want a different President you all need to stop being so high and mighty and LISTEN to people.
A true salesman loves to hear the word no because that tells them where they need to concentrate to close the deal. If you want to change someone’s opinion you need to hear the NOs.
@Mehrocco_Mole You don’t get it.
@lisaviolet Can you explain to me what her sign means? Because I’m not sure I get it.
@MrMark I could try, but I doubt I could explain it to you so that you understood it the way I do.
Short answer? No.
And don’t get me wrong. Someone can spend hours explaining how bluetooth works or electricity works and I’ll just sit there with my mouth hanging open. Some concepts I fail to grasp and I know it. I try to understand, but it just never sinks in.
@lisaviolet They work by magic.
@moondrake That’s what I thought! Thank you!
@Mehrocco_Mole “If you do not see the humor than please tell me what rights does a gun have that a woman does not? That is a dialog. point counterpoint.” Okay, so now that you’ve sort of explained, I guess the joke is supposed to be that a woman has more rights than a gun? I’m not sure why that’s supposed to be funny. Citizen’s United has muddied the waters on the topic, but AFAIK, objects don’t have rights. Every human being (and every living thing) on Earth should have more rights than a gun. But since you requested point and counter point, then here are a few things a gun can do that a woman cannot. A gun can fit in a stylish purse or shoulder holster, but not a woman. A well cared for gun is to all intents and purposes eternal, a woman is not. A gun can kill someone and is not subject to punishment under the law. A gun can be thrown at someone or used to pummel them, women are inconvenient for that purpose. It’s all kind of a stretch, but there are thousands of purposes for which a 2-5 lb steel object can be used but not a flesh and blood human being. But none of them have anything to do with contrasting rights.
@lisaviolet If it moves or empowers you, then I guess the sign worked and had a purpose. Even if you can’t explain why.
@Mehrocco_Mole
So far so good.
You are aware that only a tiny tiny tiny percentage of those who dislike Trump did any of those things, right? And most of those actions are not destructive.
I strongly condemn the destructive ones. The other actions you mention are certainly off-putting to some. And may or may not be counterproductive over time, as many “outrageous” peaceful protests have yielded results over time. And many have not. The future is a hard thing to predict with precision.
And your recommendations seem a bit one-sided, in the sense of being directed, as far as I am aware, at no actions undertaken by those here, but definitely directed only at the more visibly extreme who dislike Trump.
I live in a sea of red and many of them voted for Trump. Of the ones I have spoken to so far, all of them voted for him in spite of his worse qualities, not because of them. But I haven’t spoken to anyone who voted for him in the primaries. Don’t know about that.
I completely agree that the Democrat “coastal elites” leadership got completely oversold on its own POV’s in this election, and failed to listen to blue-collar workers.
And now we have a new era, and you are right: it’s time to take a deep breath or a few, get past the emotions if we can, figure out where we are, and go forward.
Just leaving this in various useful places (it’s the alternative twitter accounts for various muzzled Fed Gov folks):
@Shrdlu The Internet Archive people who were moving data servers to Canada after the election foresaw this. https://blog.archive.org/2016/11/29/help-us-keep-the-archive-free-accessible-and-private/
@OldCatLady
That why I sent them what I could afford, and make a monthly auto-gift.
Everyone has missed the whole point of the Trump presidency. Melania and Ivanka. Enough said. Seriously who hasn’t {walked} to that (women included). If the shit is out of your control what’s the point of bitching about it - because it won’t fucking change anything. The fucking election is over - get the fuck over it. I just know, as a proud citizen of this country, I’d prefer seeing Ivanka and Melania than that nasty {intelligent} Hilliary. I mean really- people that argue politics crack me the fuck up, because no matter what your opinion it has no impact. Whoever is in power wields control and will do whatever the fuck they want good or bad. Your vote is your voice, if you don’t like what happen, then pack your shit and leave- otherwise deal with it and shut the fuck up. Concentrate on more pressing matters like figuring out what {shiny} Ivanka is, or what {mixing bowl} you plan on using, or if Melania has ever taken {the skunk to the Eiffel Tower}- do something constructive and fill up your {trunk} rather than worring about things that are out of your control.
{Edited. We played mad libs!}
@gak0090 OK so I hope you are trying to be funny here… but how about not turning this into a middle school boy’s locker room please. The personal attacks between several forum members is bad enough without throwing in this type of stuff in here too.
@Kidsandliz Oh - I’m sorry did I offend you? Are you a self-appointed moderator? And do you enjoy spending time in a middle school boy’s locker room- if so, you should really get some help.
@gak0090 Nope don’t hang out in locker rooms but did work with kids where many a night was spent camping and kids that age sort of forget that tent walls do not block others from hearing their conversations. The best was when they’d be plotting how to run away from the program (court appointed adjudicated youth outdoor adventure program - they were sentenced to participate) and then wonder how the staff found out about it. LOL
@gak0090 @thumperchick are you around?
@lisaviolet Yeah ask thumperchick to intervene to delete my thread. Because there is no chance in hell that you would be able to compete with me on any level regarding anything.
@gak0090 Sorry, I don’t do gutter.
@lisaviolet read back my post very carefully. The intent of my post was to make clear that regardless of what people or feel after the election it does not matter. How you feel about policy DOES NOT MATTER because it will never have impact on anyones administration. Bitching about stuff will not affect anything- so why waste the time and effort bitching about things beyond your control? Spend your efforts on things that you believe in that will actually have the potential to make impact in some useful way. Then my other points were Ivanka and Melania are smoking hot and I like to masturbate- so what’s wrong with that? I’m not insulting anyone, and I guarantee a majority feel the same way I do.
@gak0090 The reason for asking @Thumperchick to intervene is simply because what you posted is completely ignorant, crude and inappropriate. Might be best to just keep quiet for a bit…
@cinoclav I’m sorry- I don’t remember asking your opinion!
@cinoclav
@gak0090 Don’t be sorry, you didn’t have to ask for it. I’m giving it of my own volition. That’s what makes this an open forum page. However, there are rules that apply to all of us. Maybe you should revisit them. Pay specific attention to H and I. Or maybe just I since that’s the one you’ve violated prodigiously.
https://meh.com/forum/topics/our-forum-rules-no-bullshit
@lisaviolet thanks for the tag.
@gal0090 I’ve been trying to stay hands off of this thread, but there were some parts of that which needed amending.
@cinoclav
@gak0090 I do. That’s what happens when you don’t fall under the ‘I’ rule.
@Thumperchick I
your edits.
@Thumperchick love the madlibs!
@Thumperchick Awesome edit!
@Thumperchick well- at least you didn’t delete everything. I think you’re starting to like me.
@gak0090
@Thumperchick
@lisaviolet
@gak0090 I have no eyelids. Genetic mutation.
@lisaviolet Is this you?
@gak0090 Close. Except I use bottle teardrops. I lost part of my tongue when it got stuck to a frozen flag pole when I was a child.
@lisaviolet No tongue and no eyelids- kind of a hot mess? That’s alright - I don’t judge.
Glad to see the original post was cleaned up @thumperchick. Of course now some of the responses make less sense but better that than what was there to begin with. : )
@gak0090 Not a mess at all.
As a long time member of the meh community (927 days) I am disturbed at how this thread is starting to have portions with name calling and personal attacks. In the past we have been able to disagree with each other without being nasty to the person we disagree with… a norm this community has had that I have appreciated. Perhaps people can self edit when they post in this respect? And if someone starts to engage in this kind of behavior then just ignore that post? Those kinds of posts say more about the poster than the person they are attacking anyway.
@Kidsandliz If you don’t like the posts then don’t engage- no one is forcing you to. This forum is full of sarcasm, adult humor (at least to some) - if you can’t take it leave. This is one of the few places I enjoy posting because it has the freedom of posting whatever is on your mind without the consequence of censorship. Please don’t fuck that up.
@gak0090 Actually they have removed a few posts on (a rare) occasion and locked a few (again very rarely) threads. There was a conversation once where snapster said that porn, soft porn, sexually explicit stuff wasn’t appropriate on this forum and your post was, in my opinion, sexually explicit beyond the usual innuendo that goes on here. There is a difference, in my opinion, between humor and some of what has been said on this thread. Also since you enjoy this forum you may have also noticed that personal attacks, posts where people are being nasty to others, etc. are very rare here and the norm is not to do that - this particular thread seems to be an unfortunate exception with respect to what a couple of people are posting.
@Kidsandliz You yourself refer to the current president as “the dump” a number of times. Name calling is insulting regardless if the person is here to read it or not.
@MrMark That does not mean that the nasty personal attacks a few people are making directly to each other on this thread is then right.
@Kidsandliz Of course not. Never said it did. I was agreeing with you overall, but adding that insulting people that are not present is not something that should be done either. What is the benefit of calling him “the dump” as opposed to using his real name?
@Kidsandliz Originally Meh was promoting lack of censorship, if that policy has changed, or now has various amendments - then I am truly in the wrong place and will move on. As far as personal attacks, I attack no one who does not attack me first. Retribution is fair play.
@gak0090 https://meh.com/forum/topics/our-forum-rules-no-bullshit
@gak0090 When I think of censorship in the context of a forum like this, I think more of thunderthighs on woot deleting posts that she doesn’t like or other mods removing things that are fine, but don’t paint woot/product being sold in a flattering light. In a less annoying but still present way, profanity filters count too.
What I think @kidsandliz is going for here is more of a request for civility, not actual censorship. She’s just another forum user like you or me, so of course you’re free to ignore her. Why not do your best to be civil though? It’s a big enough sandbox for everybody.
@Pantheist well said. But if she would have taken your advice and ignored me in the first place then this would not even be an issue. We all have the ability to decide what we will respond to. Ignoring a post is the ideal response if you’re in disagreement. The reason being is that eventually it dies it’s own death. The logic may seem counterintuitive but you can see by what I’ve done here that I have successfully advanced my own agenda. I actually had a valid point in my original post explaining that it doesn’t matter what you think or how you feel regardless of what political background you have- it won’t change anything. So use your energy for more useful things that may impact something. Here is where I use the adult analogy of mastur… as a sort of sarcasm.
@gak0090 Yeah I gotcha. I saw what you were originally going for. It wasn’t really my taste, which is why I personally wasn’t about to get involved, but some people are touchier about that sort of thing than me. Hard to blame someone for responding negatively to something that she feels strongly about.
I’ve been backing off this thread in general because while I do believe political dissent can make a difference, no one’s mind is getting changed because of a thread on meh. Just felt the need to chime in because I do feel strongly about censorship, and I don’t think it’s much of an issue here.
@Pantheist I’m all about shock and awe. Yes some people get offended- but seriously with all the things truly offensive going on in the world - I think my rhetoric should be the least of people’s worries. I am a polarizing person, some people actually like me most people probably don’t. I don’t have a problem with that, I prefer it. I’m rude and obnoxious and I love showing that side on posts. People need to lighten up a bit sometimes. When I saw Dizavid started this post, I was under the impression that this would be a pretty fun thread (considering the shit that Dizavid posts). Maybe there should be certain topics that don’t have any boundaries for posters like myself and Dizavid, that can be a rude, politically incorrect and disgusting as possible. That’s my “creative” outlet- can’t really do that kind of shit at work. Maybe I’ll start a topic like that.
@gak0090 Wouldn’t bother me any, and then at least people who don’t like it would know not to look at those threads.
@Kidsandliz My experience is that when there is discussion on Trump, it often turns nasty. My own kids can’t discuss their views without overstepping the manners I tried to teach them.
@Kidsandliz Maybe if we keep this thread open it will keep all of this crap off the other threads so we can avoid it.
@Panatheist @gak0090 I missed that it was supposed to be a crude joke. Rather it came across to me as incredibly gutter level gross and disgusting. But then again I don’t find humor in sexually explicit, sexist jokes (against either sex).
@Kidsandliz shrug like I said, it wasn’t for me either. I can see that something is meant jokingly even if I don’t find it funny.
@Kidsandliz I bet you’re a blast to hang out with. Don’t you have like a pie to bake or something?
@Pantheist But when that happens, don’t you love to deadpan and say “I don’t get it”? And then the person who originally said the joke has to explain the humor in it and it becomes less and less funny with each time they try to explain it?
Unless the joke just gets funnier and funnier to them each time they try to explain and you end up walking away and they’re on the floor, laughing so hard they can’t catch their breath.
@lisaviolet With the “I don’t get it” response I usually go with: I could try and explain the joke, but I doubt I could explain it to you so that you understood it.
@lisaviolet Haha, yes! Yes I do. I especially love when they really struggle to explain it and start to confuse themselves in the process.
@lisaviolet
@MrMark Well done.
@Pantheist I just completely hijacked this thread- I love fucking with people.
@gak0090 Yup, if that’s what your goal was I’d say you were successful. 14 new comments in this topic in the last hourish, all involving you/shit you said.
/giphy dumpster fire
Caught this on the news yesterday. Reporter (who happens to be my next door neighbor) was talking about the protesters in Philly while Cheeto was in town. Sign is somewhat difficult to read but says: ALTERNATIVE FACT: Nobody is here protesting right now. It took me a moment to notice it before I almost rolled off my couch laughing.
@cinoclav There was a tweet that showed up that said something to the effect that Trump made history as the person having the largest crowd of women, ever, to protest against him. I will have to see if I can find that tweet again. : )
@Kidsandliz You don’t have to find it, I think it’s pretty obvious it’s true.
first!!!1
@unixrab I can’t believe I starred a post of yours.
Welcome back, honey!
@lisaviolet
well butter my butt and call me a biscuit, i’ve been missing out on this here gem of a thread
I’ve found yet another candid photo. Looks real to me.
@OldCatLady I think that’s an alternative fact.
@cranky1950 Maybe not he seems to be attacking the media using broad strokes. His common behavior.
Many evil villains, rolled into one.
@KDemo Wrong person. A wonderful Pia Guerra cartoon shows the true power:
@OldCatLady - Ugh, yes. The even worse Dick Cheney.
@KDemo Cheney condemned the plan to ban Muslims. He did it in December 2015, and again this Monday. I never, ever thought I’d agree with him, but-.
i vote for real anime
It took 8 years of Reagan to undo 4 of Carter, I think Trump can flush the Obama 8 within his first term.
@eq52515 I’m sure you are right. It is always easier to destroy than to build.
@moondrake I disagree. Building the wall should be pretty straight forward. I should have been clearer in my previous post; kindly replace ‘flush’ with ‘correct the mistakes of’, thanks.
@eq52515 The wall is a huge waste of money and it does not work. I live only a couple of miles from the big part of the existing wall and it has not stopped illegal border crossings. The border is riddled with tunnels. The border is 1,989 miles long. Figuring three shifts that gives us about 1 border patrol agent per mile, or 2 per two miles as they work in pairs. Doesn’t sound too bad if you are unfamiliar with how formidable much of the terrain is. But quite a lot of it is impassable by ground vehicle.
Trump’s already ordered the hiring of 10,000 more federal immigration agents and 5,000 Border Patrol agents. $10-20 billion to build the fence, annual maintenance of $700 million.
If Trump adds 10,000 additional ICE agents, it could mean a further $3.9 billion each year. DHS requested $3.1 billion for roughly 8,000 enforcement and removal agents in fiscal year 2017. The addition of 5,000 Border Patrol agents would tack $900 million annually onto the bill, based on the $3.8 billion DHS requested for 21,070 agents in fiscal-year 2017. Please explain to me how this fits the Republican ideal of shrinking government.
Lastly, we are great at building things and terrible at maintaining them. Just look at our decaying bridges and dams. Much of the existing fence is already in disrepair. The desert is a harsh environment, the sun and wind do a lot of damage if you don’t stay on top of things. How long will we maintain the new fence before it becomes uninteresting and Congress leaves it to rot?
@moondrake the mils and bils you quote are peanuts compared to the trillions wasted in the previous 8 years. #MAGA
@moondrake - Exactly! Add up all those expenses and figure how many schools could be built and teachers hired; how many hospitals could be constructed; how many existing roads and bridges could be repaired and maintained, and how many jobs that would create.
There are so many preferable ways to make this country better, instead of building a wall to block an already small and declining number of people coming across the border.
Also, instead of raising tariffs on Mexico, why not lower them? More jobs and a healthier economy there would decrease motivation for coming here.
@KDemo I’ve said for a long time that there are only two ways of actually halting illegal immigration from Mexico. 1. Help Mexico become a better place to live. 2. Make the US a worse place to live. It seems that we are getting #2. To those who growl at the idea of helping Mexico I say: You don’t quibble over the price of water when your neighbor’s house is on fire.
Currently the Mexican farmworkers get $20 a day. They are typically picked up for work 6 days a week at our migrant farmworkers’ center at 4 am to be driven to the fields, mostly in NM and work about 10 hours, and are dropped off at about 5pm. That’s $2 an hour with no benefits and protections. If there were a practical method to close our border, I am genuinely scared what the prices at the supermarket would look like if we paid American farmworkers minimum wage, worked them only 40 hours a week, if the farms had to pay taxes for them, and meet safety requirements.
@moondrake That was always the goal. The Kochs of this country have been trying to deflate the dollar and thusly your wages since the mid 70’s after Nam. The made their bucks put it into real assets and decided mercian companies needed to compete with the 3rd world on an even basis which means a return to pre WW2.
Let’s root for the Falcons.
@JT954
Suicide watch. Trump at some point started believing his own bull shit and he’s currently flying way too close to the Sun.
Report: Trump team baffled by White House light switches
The people who want to build a wall between the United States and Mexico can’t figure out how to turn on the lights at the White House, according to the New York Times.
"Aides confer in the dark because they cannot figure out how to operate the light switches in the cabinet room, the Times reported Sunday. “Visitors conclude their meetings and then wander around, testing doorknobs until finding one that leads to an exit.”
While some might consider “wandering around in the dark” an apt metaphor for the new administration, the inability of President Donald J. Trump’s team to operate light switches strains belief.