I'm having a horrible week.

@lisaviolet I was thinking the same thing. I am not good on the spot, which some can take as me not being supportive. I really need time to process.

@lisaviolet I’m the same way. I’ll stand there silent and then kick myself for not saying the right thing. @RiotDemon, know that a lot of people love you and support you.

@narfcake honestly, I think it’s easier for him to stay silent if he doesn’t have the same feelings versus actually telling me that he doesn’t have the same feelings. It’s been days. I reached out again today, and nothing yet. He doesn’t even know that I didn’t get the job.

@RiotDemon
I would say the partner has emotional issues or communication issues.

No judgement there, we all have issues.

If it were me (at this point in my life), I’d wait till we (I and partner) had some time together, and then would explain in a fairly non-judgmental way what I wanted and what would have been helpful.

You can tell a lot about whether you should stay in a relationship w someone by that person’s reaction to stuff like this (the bad event, the reaction, the later talk about the reaction) over time.

Re the job. That really sux.
But, you are better than the local mgmt at this company is.

Yeah, I can say that. You show us what you are here every day.

During an entire year you ought to have a lot of options appear. What are your dreams? What have you always wanted to try? Maybe now’s the time to look at that.

As for what happened today, I’m really sad about both parts of it.

If I could spend the weekend drinking w you and talking shit about the world, I would.

Also this is no consolation but possibly good for a laugh — I forgot I took this and was walking around DC for a good half hour with a speech bubble taped to my coat.

@brhfl we should all walk around with speech bubbles that say sorry about your shitty week! I think it would be pretty funny.

@dashcloud aww thanks, that’s really nice. I’ll only take it if it’s something you really don’t want
Same username at steam.

@jbartus yeah. Words are hard.

He finally responded that he doesn’t know what to say.

@RiotDemon I can empathize. People tell me about problems and the best things I can come up with seem to be generic, cliche, or empty sounding so I am often too embarrassed to say anything. I try to make up for it by being there to listen to them and offer what I can to let them know I care and am there to support them but generally I can’t say much of anything.

@jbartus @RiotDemon And some of us get in trouble for trying too hard to help…
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@RiotDemon you do that! Have a blast!

@RiotDemon drink pre bowling. A buzz makes bowling more fun

@RiotDemon
Down one for us!

/giphy whisky

@RiotDemon Benefits are #1 for me at the moment, if they are great, hopefully you can stick around there, even if it is for less. Have you thought of taking a class or two, perhaps in something that will make you stand out to your organization? It is so hard to work full-time and take classes, but I absolutely love the classes I am currently in, and hopefully they will help with my marketability.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this, but as you can see we are all here to be a sounding board if you need it.

@RiotDemon

Re job: it’s possible that the person who couldn’t give you an explanation today was illogical, politically motivated, dishonest, messed up, or has terrible judgement about employees and positions. Who knows?

If you’re not being picked mystifies other managers, then this guy’s judgement against you may be something that’s simply wrong and should be ignored, even tho it sux that you wanted it and didn’t get it.

Re:partner
He sounds decent. Tell him what kind of responses might have meant something to you at that moment. If he cares for you, he’ll try to learn and respond.

@RiotDemon even people who have been together for over 25 years, like the hubs and me, don’t always respond in any expected manner. We have been invited to a destination wedding in the tropics, and I was honestly explaining why it would be miserable for me, and hubby got nasty and said obviously there is no way he wasn’t going to be miserable either. Hurt my feelings, but now this event isn’t my problem! He can figure out passports for the kids and himself!! Always an upside!

As for work, that just blows!

@RiotDemon As someone that has hired a lot of people in the past, and some of those for premier positions, I can tell you that many people had the skills to do the job and had excellent interviews. However, there was only one position open and I cannot hire everyone that applied who had the skills to do it. I had to pick the BEST person that applied.

Just a thought, is it possible that another candidate also had all the necessary skills but had one additional character that made them more desirable for the empty position?

If two candidates are equally qualified for a position and I have to pick between them, I will look at other factors such as how many sick days do they take each year? What was their last appraisal rating? How many times do they move to a new position? Feedback from previous managers is also useful.

@cengland0 thanks for your comment. I posted an update below.

@RiotDemon “I really want to learn from the experience, but I’m not sure there’s much to be learned from him.”

It’s smart of you to recognize that. Sometimes there’s just nothing to be learned.

I just left a place where new management was coming in, and all of the open positions were being filled by people they used to work with. I knew what would happen, and I left. Sometimes the answer is inscrutable or unfair, and doesn’t have anything to do with what you brought to the table.

Start now, and network. Sorry to say hubby’s been looking for a year and out of work since Sept. even w low unemployment rate, it can be hard (effort as well as emotionally each time you get a “thanks but we picked another candidate”) so keep your chin up!! More bowling nights may be needed.

@RiotDemon
⭐️⚡️

@RiotDemon So the decision was made entirely by software? I’ve heard of algorithms to weed out unqualified people, but to make a final decision seems crazy. They’re going to end up with a team that doesn’t work well together. I know it sucks now, but if that’s the direction they’re headed you might be better off finding someplace new.

@PantHeist it was supposed to make it completely unbiased. Some people think that the reason we have 12 months, is because some of the people might fail, and we would end up taking those positions.

There’s other locations that did the same exact thing, and I was speaking to the husband of one of the people in my same position. He said they are already complaining over there that the money is not enough for all the stress they have to go through… So some people are already thinking about quitting.

@RiotDemon
Quite frankly that’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.

Maybe you ought to consider another company eventually? Cause this company … gad.

An fairly accurate movie re-creation of a real-life conversation, from the film “Miracle” (accurate according to interviews with the participants after the real events).

How’d that work out? Well, let’s see. An amateur group of good but misfit college hockey players average age under 22 only whipped the much better professional and world-class Soviet Team (who was at their peak during those years) and took the Gold Medal.
Lake Placid. 1980.

A computer algorithm at our current level of competence in personnel assessment cannot calculate the billion intangibles that a wise person can get an intuitive feel for. And an algorithm cannot currently correctly assess how a team will function.

People aren’t widgets. Not yet, anyway.

Good thing you didn’t name the company. I’d research and then be a little tempted to short-sell based on that nonsense. That’s not enough of a reason to do it, but … whatever. Makes you think about it.

PS Disney did an outstanding job with that film. Just 'sayin. Even if you hate sports or hate hockey.

@f00l It actually wouldn’t be a bad idea to short them- new personnel policy that’s likely to put together incompatible teams and drive away top talent? Not a great business plan- especially if you leaked the policy so other investors knew too (after you’d already gotten your money in).

@PantHeist
That policy will create so very much bonding, energy, loyalty, commitment, synergy.

/s

@f00l when someone that got it expressed their shock that they got it over me, that says a lot.

@RiotDemon
If they don’t reform that policy, if it were me, I’d use all my people talents to get all the training and operations experience I could maneuver into, make notes on what learned amd did, keep my resume in good order, considered getting additional education if it would help, and be on the watch for opportunities to jump on. Outside opportunities.

But perhaps I should mention that I did not have enough common sense to do all that when younger - and prob still don’t.

Total hypocrisy for me to recommend that. Necessary disclosure.

@RiotDemon It’s possible that compensation level was included as a criterion and over-weighted (either accidentally or purposefully).
I was on a team doing an engineering trade study of several competing (hardware) components where 20 or 25 measures were evaluated, each with a weighting factor. After a few weeks of analysis & testing, the (mostly objective) resultants were complete. The components’ performance comparison matrix seemed pretty complicated, so the data was entered into a software ‘selection engine’. The component chosen wasn’t anybody’s favorite (not necessarily that unusual) but appeared acceptable.
Found out about a year later (after an audit), that the weighting factor for COST was cranked way up out of proportion and mostly (but not entirely) dominated the other criteria. That was deemed a bit too coincidental; eventually different parts were procured instead. The cost of the change was substantial, if not newsworthy.

TL;DR: Beware the hidden influencer, especially when buried in code/software. It’s easy to ‘blame the computer’ - all in the name of objectivity/impartiality.

@compunaut @RiotDemon I think the key was in your earlier post: ‘he didn’t have an answer’. To me that says that there was a factor which he was not comfortable talking to you about. The screaming match is not reassuring, because no matter who participated, it says there are volatile personalities involved. You’re very wise to go bowling and socialize, and to keep on with normal life.

@compunaut
when you are dealing with people or intangibles as opposed to something where the properties can be tightly defined, hidden assumptions are the least of the problems.

Here goes one of my idiot rants. Read at your own risk. Yada yada.

Computers can be “objective”, so to speak, about specific factors that are actually objectively definable and objectively measureable. Sort of. With some notable caveats and and possible POV bias issues.

What no one and no computer can be “objective” about the factors and the weighing. Do we even understand well what factors matter for success or for optimal success? Do a degree in some details, yes, esp in simple settings. Overall, no way, not close, esp the more complex the objects and goals.

Go beyond objects whose properties can be tightly defined and measured and tested. Whose properties cannot be fully described or understood, much less in their complex interactions: such as … people.

Of the factors that matter and we have a clue what they are: can we define them? Certainly we do not have adequate definitions for many of them. Things that can’t be defined can only be judged by consensus or personal judgement. Hardly objective.

Same with things that can’t be measured; again, what you get are phony values.

The only accurately measured and evaluated metrics the ones highly susceptible to digitization. And how do you weight those? Objectively? Of course not.

Measure such factors as are studied in the “science”. Ok, they’re trying. I don’t fault the work. Only it needs them he understood in context. All we are seeing now is our current state of understanding and cirrent set of definitions and assumptions. Nothing more.
Which is not even slightly objective.

Are the qualities that can be defined and measured accurately - assuming they are always weighted properly, which is a huge unverifiable and to some degree nonsensical notion - even the important factors? And how does one know the answer to that? How fast we one test for things we don’t know we don’t know when we have insufficient clear-cut measures and understanding even to properly spot anomalies? This isn’t testing whether light is bent by gravity, which is simple in comparison.

That doesn’t mean those SW programs are necessarily useless, tho they may be. Hard to say. They’re perhaps about as accurate and objective as a random non-academic biz magazine article.

Any whatever philosophy goes into the choice of factors to measure and weight are either an expression of the biz/mgmt/psych/other philosophies of the people employed by the sw company, or are those that are the current thinking in those fields. Again, not objective. Not useless, either. Just like the other elements of the judging algorithm (definitions, measuring, PIV, etc), highly subject to the current winds of academic fashion and our current quite limited knowledge of what makes people effective. It’s primitive primitive primitive. Stone Age.

If someone pulls price/cost completely out of the matter, those programs may be quite useful as one input among many. Or as a way of looking for problem areas. Or specific strengths and weaknesses. As long as they are a small part of the overall process.

There are more problems.
The nature of what we know and how current language, cultural and technological conditioning, psychology, education, social assumptions limit what we know… how does where we are path of history, so to speak limit our understanding)
Also serious and fascinating questions that involve metaphysics, logic/logics, linguistics, epistemology, ethics, ontology, sociology and beyond, huge nature of “objectivity” itself (sometimes a foolish notion,so to speak), and onward.

Again, doesn’t mean these decision and weighing programs are worthless. It doesn’t seem mean the associated marketing is too be ignored as a measure of their value. It does mean that these programs can seem magical to those who don’t understand them well.

There will never be a full objective reading of human potential. Ever. Because it’s not logically possible (seriously), and not because our species is just more special than anything else. There will also never be an objective full knowledge of our universe or even a small part of it. Not with our brains in as is current condition, Again, not logically possible.
That’s both provable and also built-in to the very nature of language, the nature of logical expression of facts, and the nature of possessing a POV. .

So. Nothing against such enterprises see or sw programs when taken in context.

Tho those programs would not have been able to pick out, say, the 10000 most effective businesspersons or scientists or engineers or much else over the last day 20 years. They would have possibly been able to work well with athletes, and other fields that use a small subset of measurable characteristics.

Related issue -what does it mean if anything sufficiently complex is fundamentally unknowable in any final way?

Several jumping off points:

First, does this mean that our machine and/or insect overlords will never fully enslave us?
Unknown. Esp if drugs or other biological interventions are used by a powerful species or intelligence as a means of reducing freedom of the brain or of communication. What It does mean is that such enslavement could never be properly considered final and certain.

If we - and the universe - finally unknowable, what does it mean to know stuff?
We are a little smaller than the entire universe. Not quite on that scale.
We sort of know ourselves now - we’ll sort of know ourselves better and better - and we’ll always be wearing blinders. That will always likely be universes within us that we don’t conceive of. But hard to say.

One of the (logical) problems with not knowing is that you don’t know.

And there’s may be as yet unconceived of universes of alternative logics currently unavailable to us.

How big are those possible universes?
Big. No, bigger than that. No, way way way bigger than that.

Take the “known universe” and add in all that our languages, logic, sciences, knowledge, and codes can possibly imply. How big is that, conceptually, compared to what’s out there?

Small. No, smaller than that. No, way way way smaller than that.

Now assume that we take all that could be known or implied by all our language and logic, as compared to all that’s potentially “our there”?

What’s the ratio? Let’s call the ratio “x”.

Now, assume our species doesn’t self-destruct over the next 100k years and continues to grow and innovate at last as quickly as at present.

(If we assumed we met other species and exchanged info with other sophisticated species during that time, the results would be the same.)

Ok, now we’re 100k years into the future, and all way way way smart and even know he w to do great hive mind with every other known intelligence.

Amd take all that knowledge and all the possible implications of that knowledge and all the possible implications of all the logics available to us.
Add all that into a ball.

What’s the ratio of all that knowledge and wisdom we might possess, as compared to all the possibilities in the universe?
It’s “x”.

Ain’t logic grand? Who ever said logic had no sense of humor?

I kinda like it. There will always be endless frontiers, and humans -particularly Americans - have a thing for frontiers.

If we transmute into gods or something, I don’t think all bets on my calculations would be off, but certainly another look would be needed.

And of course, we’ll do that just any day now.

PS
This was written while I was riding passenger in a pickup with very stiff suspension down a gravel road and back. I bounced around a lot. So did my brain. I’m sure it shows.
Good thing I have a handy excuse.
’Nuff said.

@sammydog01 wow, so he broke the pole and what was left came crashing straight down. Amazing.

@sammydog01
So many things I’ve screwed up.

Never quite done that tho.

/giphy disaster

@RiotDemon Yep, it happened here.