To the guy waiting at the stoplight beside me:
15Closer isn't better. You're not helping the light "see" you by inching further into the intersection and now that you've passed the stop bar it won't turn until someone pulls up behind you. You're blocking the left turns and now no one will be able to move.
So that isn't actually happening now (surprise), it happened on my way to work and I'm still aggravated. I'm trying to learn to let things go but not doing such a good job :-\
- 17 comments, 106 replies
- Comment
Here you go- sing along!
HATE these people. It's like they're in a big fricken hurry and they don't know what that white line before the intersection is for. Pro tip: you stop BEHIND it. I love just burning them off the line and then merging in front of them. See, dickbag, inching into the intersection didn't help you none, now did it? Enjoy me driving extra slow just to punish your ass. Somebody has got to it. People need to learn their traffic light shenanigans aren't cool.
@medz So, you were THAT person, yesterday, huh? Fast internet = lead foot.
@Barney Yeah, I only bring the foot down when people need their comeuppance. (and only when daughter not in car)
@medz An extra star for not having your daughter with you. You are a good dad!
And the speed limit signs are the maximum speed, not minimum (thinking about our residential limit of 25 mph).
@lisaviolet see.... i think of them as a ...suggestion... ;)
@MsELizardBeth More like guidelines than actual rules?
@lisaviolet I have no problem with people doing the speed limit. If they're going 10 under or worse, though, for no obvious reason like bad weather or something, then the rage starts to build.
@jqubed S'okay on the freeway where it's every driver for himself, but not on my residential street, where you have kids, cars pulling into or out of driveways, people going for walks (no sidewalks), the occasional loose dog...
And.....
try driving in WA state. it's the only state i've ever lived in where, on the highway, there seem to be more people in the left lane than the right lane. i routinely have to use the right lane to pass. oh, and they're also afraid of bridges and tunnels.
@carl669 WA state law dictates that you must halve your speed in all tunnels, especially if there is a curve ensuring that those behind you won't see your drastic reduction in speed until it's too late.
Also, merging onto the freeway is to be done at -60 mph.
@jaremelz i think it also dictates you must always forget how to drive in the rain. damn dick-taters.
@carl669
Sounds like all east coast transplants during snowy weather.
@jaremelz Those WA state drivers ought to move to Sicily. Tunnels (and blind corners on cliff roads) must be blasted through at full speed, horn blasting, because it proves one's masculinity. Women drivers are invisible unless they're driving a sexy car in case they must be outrun because it proves one's masculinity. Merging from four lanes to two is a challenge to one's masculinity. Brakes are for sissies. I do not miss driving in Sicily.
@OldCatLady Haha, I spent nearly a year driving in Mexico, trust me, I'm very familiar with machismo driving. However, I will say in their defense that the one huge difference is that no one freaking cares what you are doing on the road, they'll go around you if you are going to slow. They don't feel the need to flip you off, ride your bumper, etc. They just go around, often times through fields, over sidewalls, animals, and so on.
@carl669 I see you've never driven thru Ohio. Drivers Ed there clearly teaches drive-in-left-lane whenever humanly possible.
You can actually tell when you've crossed state lines in any direction with this simple observation.
Driving is like a sense of humor. Everyone thinks theirs is above average. But we all can't be. And everyone thinks they're a better than average driver and that they have the worst traffic.
Army brat, followed in my dad's footsteps, so I'm no expert, and readily admit my experience is a mile wide but only an inch deep ...
Colorado: everyone drives 5 mph under the speed limit, but they run red lights like there's no tomorrow. (Are you in a hurry or not? Just be consistent.)
Georgia: whole state has nascar fever. The 75/85 merge is like 12 lanes of 95 mph bumper to bumper traffic. And whenever a highway splits, you'll see some dumbass sitting in the yellow paint right at the split, trying to decide which way to go, like a kayaker in an eddy.
Also, they run red lights but stop at imaginary stop signs.
Boston: zero respect for your paint job. Door dings, touch bumpers when they park (aka, the Boston bounce), even casually swap paint going around curves. They just don't care.
Chicago: I think I've witnessed half a dozen 3 mph collisions there. When the highway is in gridlock, someone always gets distracted by his shiny new toy and bumps the guy in front.
Hawaii: best place to get a huge, sincere, ridiculous smile (and maybe a Shaka) from the guy who just cut you off.
Kentucky: No, or maybe just worthless, vehicle inspection standards, so more cars with a missing headlight than anywhere I've ever seen.
Missouri: I-44 is between Tulsa and Chicago, and a big meth artery. To catch runners, the patrolmen would put up hand written, cardboard, totally half-assed signs saying "Drug sniffing dogs two exits ahead." Then they would pull over the guys who got off one exit ahead a little too quickly.
Alabama: always some guy driving in the rain without his wipers on.
Every city on the east coast: no one can stay in his lane making a left turn. Why is that so hard?
Colorado again: more people with big trucks who can't park them than anywhere else.
Texas: they get ice storms more often than you'd think, or, at least, way too often whoever I'm there. And someone apparently told everyone that when you start to slide, you turn into the slide and then gun it. Kinda sorta almost true back when cars were rear wheel drive.
California: Everyone drives 15 miles an hour on the freeway because of the traffic. On those rare occasions where there's no traffic, everyone drives 100 MPH to make up for it.
@mrslug also in CA, directional signals should only be turned on after you have already started making the turn.
@carl669 CA operates the same way. It's infuriating.
@AnnaB My husband used to do that. Until I called him out on it. "Why do you do that? People can see you're turning, you need the signal on BEFORE you start to turn. Dur."
@carl669 I'm so happy someone said this, you speak for all of us who pass in the left lane, sir.
I'll never forget my last Portland/Seattle I-5 trip.. There was a girl in a tiny red Fiat doing like 55 in the 70, in the passing lane. I rode behind her for a few miles politely waiting for her to get over - it never happened. I finally got a chance to go around and passed.
It was in that area where it's straight a straight shot for quite a ways, so I could see behind me for probably a mile~. There was literally a line of probably a dozen cars behind her trying to pass and she had 0 fucks to give.
Slowly 1-by-1 they all passed her on the right.
Legend has it she's still driving in that lane today..
Mississippi just did away with vehicle inspection... we will soon over take which ever state someone said has the most headlights out. Rain means go fast and tailgate. Ice and snow means go even faster and tailgate even closer.
Cambodia - chaos in slow motion. Horn is your best safety tool (seat belts? What are those?). He who makes eye contact first gives way. Center line is for decoration only. Elephants, bikes loaded sky high with things, motorcycles, cars busses, tuck tucks, and etc. all share the road. If you want to cross the street slowly step out into traffic, look at your feet, walk slowly and traffic will flow around you. Usually. If not remember there are no ambulances there.
Virginia Hampton Roads bridge tunnel - 1) drive an RV or pull a trailer, preferably with out of state plates 2) slow down on the highway dramatically, point and yell, "Look kids a big boat" and rubber neck at the tankers, sea gulls, pleasure craft... and then notice the Navy base...3) drive down the center of the bridge tunnel, blocking both lanes at 35mph or so because even though 18 wheelers make it through just find with room to spare, clearly your tank (eg RV) is too huge.
Oklahoma City - when driving through Moore and Edmund slow down while scanning for damage caused by whatever tornado last blew through even if all the other cars are going 80 or more
@RedOak Ohio drivers are the worst, sitting in the left lane, especially on I-75, for no particular reason.
@phatmass I don't pull out into the intersection unless I'm positive I'm going to get the opportunity to make it through before it turns red. That said, I am heavy-footed and know how to judge traffic and make my turn quickly as soon as I get the chance.
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/09/traffic_talk_should_you_enter.html
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/contributor/2015/10/05/drivers-can-wait-turn-left-intersection-green/73123378/
@phatmass Nope, if I'm out in the intersection when my light turns red, I'm breaking the law and pissing off the people who now have a green light. Trust me, if you're in a line of cars behind me waiting to turn, it won't be me holding the line up.
@phatmass I'm on my phone, so I'm not digging for links right now, but in the states I've lived in, it's illegal to still be out in the intersection after your light turns red. I don't really give a shit if the person behind me didn't leave early like I did and has a case of road rage because I choose to not break the law. Red light runners are my pet peeve and I refuse to purposely be one.
@phatmass I do understand what you are saying and that you are wrong. The issue isn't with when you enter the intersection, it's with when you complete the turn. If you don't complete it until the light turns red, then you've run a red light. It's pretty simple, really. A brief search brings up this for my state:
(b) Yellow alone or "caution" when shown following the green or "go" signal:
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal is thereby warned that the red or "stop" signal will be exhibited immediately thereafter and such vehicular traffic shall not enter or be crossing the intersection when the red or "stop" signal is exhibited.
@PurplePawprints ** crickets chirping**
@phatmass
That's a super dangerous assumption.
Fatality by my kids day care was because of that assumption.
Can think of three others in the last three years
Running reds is a way of life here. The unprotected left is always a risk.
"§17C-8-3. Left turns on two-way roadways; penalty.
(a) At any intersection where traffic is permitted to move in both directions on each roadway entering the intersection, an approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line thereof and by passing to the right of such center line where it enters the intersection and AFTER ENTERING THE INTERSECTION the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of the roadway being entered. WHENEVER PRACTICABLE THE LEFT TURN SHALL BE MADE IN THAT PORTION OF THE INTERSECTION to the left of the center of the intersection."
@phatmass
There is nothing in that quote about red lights.
Nothing
Here's the thing: the person making the left will be found liable in nearly every accident situation.
You are confusing "not getting a ticket" with "not causing an accident."
@phatmass
(1) that's not what trolling means
(2) never give traffic law interpretations to the other 49 states based on your state laws.
(3) you are confusing "stuff that won't get you a ticket" with "stuff that won't get you killed."
(4) // If I am waiting behind someone who is waiting to turn left on a green light, and they are not out in the intersection to anticipate the turn, I will literally go around them and get in front of them out in the intersection. //
That kinda makes you a crazy person. You cannot correct someone else's driving from inside your own car. Please stay in Arizona or wherever and away from my kids.
(But thanks for using "literally." I thought you were metaphorical going around them.)
(Now THAT'S trolling.)
Are those caps yours?
// an approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line thereof and by passing to the right of such center line where it enters the intersection and AFTER ENTERING THE INTERSECTION the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of the roadway being entered. //
You realize that the "entering the intersection" part is a conditional, not an imperative or directive? It's telling you "when you do X, do it this way," not "you have to do X."
This is just bad advice. Getting into the intersection is situationally dependent. At some lefts, I can see miles down the road, and can see the break — hence, zero reason to park in the middle. At some, I'll never get across if I don't encroach.
More importantly, no two states time their lights the same way. Lefts are just not a constant. (Ever hear of a Michigan Left?) The video you posted is fine for intersections like they used in the demo, but that's it. Inner city driving, it 100% depends on how the lights are timed and how the pedestrian crosswalks are timed (either before or after the protected left — it's not the same everywhere).
People who charge through life thinking that their being right trumps the safety of those around them scare the shit out of me. It's the converse of the "judged by 12, carried by 6" metaphor. In this case, how much is being right worth when you just ran over a kid's mom?
@phatmass
// It takes the person already out in the intersection a lot less time to make a left turn--compared to the people who wait behind the line before they begin their turn and then have to "gun it" to make it. //
And if the pedestrians crossing parallel to your original direction have the right of way, you've decreased your reaction time when you enter their space.
All I'm saying is, you're treating a good idea some of the time as if it's a mandate all of the time. All driving is situational. So give the guy ahead of you a break. Maybe he sees something you don't.
In my state, there isn't a rule that prohibits one from waiting in the intersection (assuming the light is green), once in the intersection you must complete the turn since you can no longer stop safely behind the line. You can legally complete the turn under red.
However at the same time, there is no law that requires you to wait in the intersection, however you could be waiting a long time if you choose to do it this way.
If you are behind the stop line when the light turns yellow and then complete your turn after oncoming traffic stops under the red/yellow light, that's when it could be illegal.
@phatmass
//. If I am waiting behind someone who is waiting to turn left on a green light, and they are not out in the intersection to anticipate the turn, I will literally go around them and get in front of them out in the intersection.//
If it's a left turn lane, then there is a solid yellow you just crossed to jump ahead of the guy who isn't driving the way you want him to.
Very smart. Brilliant advice. Insurance agents who need job security would like you to post this everywhere
@phatmass
//Entering the intersection when the light is green (and completing your left turn after the light turns red--if necessary) is legal in every single state. Please look it up.//
Never said it wasn't. Only that it's not always the best advice.
I'll tell you what… I will look up everything you're asking me to look up if you will actually read what everyone else is saying
@phatmass
// It takes the person already out in the intersection a lot less time to make a left turn--compared to the people who wait behind the line before they begin their turn and then have to "gun it" to make it. //
That right there tells me that you are a novice, introductory level driver. You are only looking at the cars immediately in front of you and not anticipating 15 or 30 seconds down the road.
There's no way to teach anticipation or situational awareness in drivers training. You get it from experience. But having to gun it is a strawman. If you're paying attention, you don't have to gun it, ever.
But again, you were taking the one size fits all rule and trying to shove it down everybody's throat
In urban driving, depending on the state and depending on how the protesters in crosswalks are timed, pulling out into the intersection will not give you the reaction time. In your example, staying back at the white line, you might not have the reaction time to get across oncoming traffic. But in an inner-city scenario, by going out into the intersection, you are now too close to the pedestrians.
What part of "situationally dependent" do you not understand ?
@phatmass
How am I wrong about light signal timing? There is no federal standard. Some protected lefts arebefore main traffic begins, some are after. Some intersections provide a protected left in one direction, then all traffic goes, then you get a protected left in the opposite direction. Some use skills and wait sensors, some do not. And then all of that applies again to pedestrian crosswalks. Sometimes they go first, sometimes they go last. There just is no universal federal standard. And all of those things factor in as to whether it's safe for the person making a left turn to get into the middle of the intersection.
So what do you mean by, I am wrong about light timing?
@phatmass
Purple paw prints did not say the crossing the line was illegal
The point of contention is whether you complete your turn under a red light or not.
And in that case, I think you are right and you were also wrong
I think you are right that you're not going to get a ticket for doing it
You are wrong in the sense that, if there is an accident, the fact that you were completing the turn under red makes liability tilt against you. The other driver will have to have done something significant for liability not to point in your direction
In my state, there isn't a rule that prohibits one from waiting in the intersection (assuming the light is green), once in the intersection you must complete the turn since you can no longer stop safely behind the line. You can legally complete the turn under red.
However at the same time, there is no law that requires you to wait in the intersection, however you could be waiting a long time if you choose to do it this way.
If you are behind the stop line when the light turns yellow and then complete your turn after oncoming traffic stops under the red/yellow light, that's when it could be illegal.
@phatmass
// Just like when people driving down the highway in the left lane will not yield to people behind them trying to pass--I will pass them, and then get in front of them and slow down, to force them to move back into the slow lane where they belong. I am actually providing a public service by showing these people that they are driving wrong. //
I'm sorry… But this makes you a crazy person
Please continue to look to taxi drivers for driving tips. What could go wrong there?
And please, stay safe in Arizona, far away from my kids
@phatmass Dear mother of god you're an idiotic asshole. You remind me of a hotheaded uncle that everyone refuses to talk to because no matter how wrong he is he will argue you to the death. I never said it's illegal to enter an intersection before making a left turn. You have to enter the intersection, or else you can't make the turn. I also never said that it's illegal to wait in the intersection for traffic to clear. What I said is that I don't enter the intersection unless I am sure that I'm going to be able to clear it BEFORE the light turns red. Yeah, once you're out in the middle of the fucking intersection you have to clear it, but you're not supposed to be in the intersection at all unless you can clear it before your light turns red. The fact that you're arguing this point scares the hell out of me and makes me really glad that we live nowhere near each other. And, I'm pretty sure @MehnofLaMehncha would prefer their kids in my car over riding with you based on the shit you've admitted to doing in this thread alone.
Also, we can all see that you're going back and starring your own posts to pad your numbers. That's just sad.
@phatmass you are right. now, i don't know if all state traffic laws are the same, but i think it is all uniform on this point and entering the intersection on green is always legal, and completing the turn on red is also legal. i had an experience where the driver in front of me, at a VERY busy intersection, would not enter the intersection on green, and for five straight light cycles did not make her turn. i finally put my car in park and walked to her window (admittedly a little creepy) and calmly explained she could enter the intersection on green and complete on red. the dangerous part of her driving pattern was that it caused traffic to back up behind her and others behind me to develop road rage (or need to test their horns).
the only time this practice would be a bad idea, IMHO, is when the lane you are trying to turn into after your light goes to red, is backed up, and leaves you stuck in the middle. if that is the case it is just time to sit back and listen to a podcast and accept you are stuck...
are we really getting into an argument about how to make left turns?
@carl669 Do you have something better to argue about?
@lisaviolet of course i do. like, is Trump a real candidate, or is he just successfully pulling off the biggest troll of the century?
@carl669 Dude! Have you seen his hair? Of course he's a troll.
"but you're not supposed to be in the intersection at all unless you can clear it before your light turns red."
This is a completely wrong statement. No state's laws prohibit this. I beg of you to find a local police officer so he/she can explain to you why you are driving wrong. You've made it abundantly clear that you do not trust my honest motives for explaining.
"Also, we can all see that you're going back and starring your own posts to pad your numbers. That's just sad."
Oh, that is a matter of perspective. I have consistently starred my own posts in every thread from day one. If you'd like to debate about the principals behind this decision in another thread I'd be glad to start it.
@phatmass oh, i'm with you on the left turn thing. i pull out into the intersection (unless there's a sign that says do not block intersection). i've done this with a police car right behind me and never had issues. i just thought it was a strange thing to argue about.
@PurplePawprints Just curious. Do you turn right at red lights, or do you wait behind the line until the light turns green? There may be a pattern here.
@phatmass Here's the direct passage from Massachusetts: The driver of a motor vehicle shall not cross or enter an intersection, which it is unable to proceed through, without stopping and thereby blocking vehicles from travelling in a free direction. A green light is no defense to blocking the intersection. The driver must wait another cycle of the signal light, if necessary.
TL;DR: not legal to pull into intersection if you can't complete turn.
@masshole @phatmass @purplepawprints @mehnoflamehncha There is a major difference between state traffic timing standards that dictate when it is ok to 'claim the intersection'. USUALLY, in a state with a two second 'all red time' claiming the intersection is an accepted practice and is taught in Drivers Ed. States like NC require it actually. In a state that does not have this safety timing it is not safe to do so. States like MI frown upon it and it can get you a ticket. This is not an argument it is fact. Don't argue with me, I likely designed one of the signals you drive through on a day to day basis.
@RedHot Yep, the lights near my house that I turn left at multiple times per day do not have a safety timer. As soon as my light turns red, their light turns green. And, it is not legal to still be in the intersection when it turns red in my state. I'm not sure why this concept is so hard to understand. Not all states are the same. I will pull out once I see a gap and can anticipate a turn before my light turns, but I'm not just going to park in the intersection with the intention of running the light once it turns.
@phatmass Of course you enter the intersection before turning, if not, most likely, you're just going to hit a curb.
Please read:
It's more likely that a cop will give you a ticket for not entering the intersection, because you are holding up traffic.
Oh hell. Just do what UPS drivers strive to do - avoid Left Turns at all costs! ;-) They swear they save time and fuel.
I deal with Pennsylvania and Washington DC Drivers occasionally. THEY are the worst. That said, I Live in a college town and I'm not sure which is worse the locals or the students. Different types of bad
@Foxborn have you driven in Bahston? Flashing yellow light means go, its green you fool! Flashing Red means slow down if you feel like it, if not, whatever.
@RedOak
I gotta vote for Boston as well
In their defense, they all grow up in a town with no 90° turns, so they think all traffic laws are just good ideas.
On military bases, you can always tell the cars in the PX parking lot that are from Mass without looking at the license plate. Crumpled bumper, paint chip on door frame from giving other people dings.
The (admittedly rare) counterpart to this person is the driver who stops so far back they don't trigger the sensor so the light stays red. Pull up to the white line! It's there to tell you where to stop! I saw this earlier this week. It was like there was a phantom car only that driver could see between him and the intersection.
@thismyusername
15 minutes? What were you doing? 😜
@jqubed
I'd say too far up outweighs (sorry!) too far back by 10:1.
@MehnofLaMehncha eating in a restaurant, watching traffic. :)
@phatmass thanks, you inspired me.
Just gonna leave this here:
A couple of things I've noticed in the last few years:
1. The person making a right turn swinging into the left lane to make the turn. I didn't know your Honda Fit suddenly turned into a semi hauling 2 trailers.
2. Turn signals are so hard to use. I was walking my dogs, came to an intersection and stopped to look all around. I saw a car behind me with no indication of it coming my way. We crossed the street and the guy turned behind me. I yelled at him (as I've gotten into the habit,) 'Where are your turn signals?' He actually stopped, rolled down the window and said he didn't hear me. I repeated what I said. His response? 'There was no one behind me so I don't need to use them.'
@looseneck
Sometimes I'll use the wrong turn signal. It's actually safer because it gets everyone's attention. Everyone else puts down their phone to yell "look at that idiot!"
@looseneck Given the opportunity, I politely mention "it appears your turn signal (right/left) is burned out".
@RedOak I also yell at the stop sign runners (I live on a corner), the speeders (moms picking up their kids from school - good role model!), the phone users. I'm a certifiable old person now :)
@looseneck I know that scenario well - we too live on a (residential) corner next to a school zone (Catholic school & Church).
I love the neighbor signs like:
"Drive like your child plays here"
@looseneck I posted on FB after the Paris attacks that I was more afraid of the soccer mom taking her kids home from school (Charter school, parents from all over San Diego bring their kids here, they have no other interest in our neighborhood), on the phone, distracted, hitting me when I get our mail from the mailbox at the street than I am a Syrian refugee.
The danger from the soccer mom is real.
@RedOak You must be my neighbor because that is almost exactly where I live!
@lisaviolet There's a woman who drives her old-enough-to-walk son to school and picks him up every day with their German Shepherd in the car and curses everyone out for walking their own dogs near the school while SHE is driving (her dog goes crazy seeing other dogs.)
Florida. Old people. Enough said.
@Teripie Hey! The worst offenders are young idiots on cell phones. Old folks know we can't text or talk while driving; we even have to turn down the music so we can read the street signs.
@OldCatLady I like to play a game when I'm on the road. "Is that guy drunk, on the cell phone, or just incredibly old?"
I'm 65 and drive like the Little Old Lady from Pasadena. My husband is 74 and drives like Mr. Magoo. I fear for my life when he drives, and he fears for his when I drive.
It's Florida!!!!
@Teripie I used to autocross, back in the day. Drifting is a constant temptation, even though I'm on Medicare and should know better. Go Granny Go!
@Teripie http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/older-drivers/qanda
I'd like to start the Stupid Police in which I'm allowed to cruise around and give anyone that I believe is driving like a jackass a ticket. They don't have to be breaking the law necessarily, just being a dick. The punishment will be a slap in the face and having to listen to Party in the USA by Miley Cyrus on a loop for 12 hours straight.
@MEHcus it would get tossed out, that is cruel and unusual punishment.
@MEHcus the slap in the face i can live with. but, Party in the USA by Miley Cyrus for 12 hours? i'm pretty sure that violates the 8th amendment.
@carl669 @MrMark great minds.
@MEHcus I believe that would be in violation of the eighth amendment. Edit: Damn I'm slow.
@thismyusername @carl669 @MrMark don't worry I thought of everything. This elite force would be above the law and completely autonomous.
@MEHcus above the law? i assume Steven Seagal will be part of this group then?
The one below has better audio
@thismyusername Thats just. Great. Must have nice sound system turned on.
@thismyusername When my brother lived in S. Cal, he played his trumpet in rush hour traffic. Said he got very few odd looks. ;-)
@thismyusername perfect...
You all really need to stop whining about what you can't control. If you develop the proper zen and keep the silliness in it's place it does not impact you often. Driving by religious dogma is frustrating though.
@cranky1950 I see releasing that bad karma into your username helps as well.
@cranky1950 That works well until the third car ahead of you at a 'yield' sign gets an attack of timidity and waits until there is nobody coming for 300 yards before they creep out, in a 45 mph zone. By then there are 12 cars backed up behind you...
i was driving today in the right lane of a thre lane road. we hit a light and i watched the other two guys, they inched out atleast 8ft each just a little at a time, both of them. they each wanted to be ahead of the other i guess. doesnt matter as i was still out of there before both of them and i didnt cross the stop line.
people are dumb, inching forward isnt going to help.
Russian dash cams are always entertaining
Part 1
And part 2