I don't see the mosques fingering the extreme elements of their communities and silence is the same as participation. So yes,as it now stands, the enemy is Islam.
@radi0j0hn the reality is that perpetrators like this often DON'T attend mosques and that Muslims are overwhelmingly the VICTIMS of acts of terror. trying to hold the Muslim community responsible is bullshit.
I don't see the mosques fingering the extreme elements of their communities and silence is the same as participation. So yes,as it now stands, the enemy is Islam.
I don't see Christian churches fingering the extreme elements of their communities - is their silence then also the same as participation?
The Ku Klux Klan burned down black churches, raped women, murdered civil rights workers, and murdered children for over a century. To this very day they still terrorize communities.
They attend church on Sunday.
The Neo Nazis all acted and continue to act in the name of white Christian supremacy. The Army of God fatally attacks abortion clinics and doctors across the country. The Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord targets and kills local police and federal agents.
They all attend church on Sunday.
Terrorism is not largely or exclusively an Islamic phenomenon. Aside from the likes of the IRA (yeah, church on Sunday!), let's look at just a few incidents on American soil.
On Aug. 5, 2012, white supremacist Wade Michael Page used a semiautomatic weapon to murder six people during an attack on a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Page’s connection to the white supremacist movement was well-documented: he had been a member of the neo-Nazi rock bands End Empathy and Definite Hate. He was a white male and attended church on Sunday.
On July 27, 2008, Christian Right sympathizer Jim David Adkisson walked into the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee during a children’s play and began shooting people at random. Two were killed, while seven others were injured but survived. Adkisson went to church every Sunday.
Eric Rudolph, who is serving life without parole for a long list of terrorist attacks committed in the name of Christianity. Rudolph is best known for carrying out the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta during the 1996 Summer Olympics—a blast that killed spectator Alice Hawthorne and wounded 111 others. Hawthorne wasn’t the only person Rudolph murdered: his bombing of an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama in 1998 caused the death of Robert Sanderson (a Birmingham police officer and part-time security guard) and caused nurse Emily Lyons to lose an eye. Rudolph’s other acts of Christian terrorism include bombing the Otherwise Lounge (a lesbian bar in Atlanta) in 1997 and an abortion clinic in an Atlanta suburb in 1997. Rudolph was no lone wolf: he was part of a terrorist movement that encouraged his violence. And the Army of God continues to exalt Rudolph as a brave Christian who is doing God’s work. Rudolph went to church every Sunday - and still does while in prison in Colorado.
In 1994, the radical anti-abortionist and Army of God member John C. Salvi attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic in Brookline, Massachusetts, shooting and killing receptionists Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols and wounding several others. Salvi was found dead in his prison cell in 1996, and his death was ruled a suicide. The Army of God has exalted Salvi as a Christian martyr and described Lowney and Nichols not as victims of domestic terrorism, but as infidels who got what they deserved. The Rev. Donald Spitz, a Christianist and Army of God supporter who is so extreme that even the radical anti-abortion group Operation Rescue disassociated itself from him, has praised Salvi as well. Salvi attended church on Sunday.
The list goes on and on . . .
The enemy is not Islam. The enemy is extremism and radicalism.
The enemy is not religion. The enemy is extremism and radicalism.
@Pavlov When I saw the title to this thread, my first hope was that you contributed your thoughts. Thank you for contributing not just your two cents, but your common sense.
@Pavlov I am not a religious person by any means. I am, however, well rooted in being a member of oppressed groups. None vilified on quite the level that we see Islam vilified upon, but I see these things, and I can't help but wonder what the future holds. I can't pretend to understand what it's like for Muslims who need trust, representation, anything to lean on right now. I can't. But, to a very different degree, I know it sucks having nobody in your corner. From the part of me who knows I could be under serious attack some day; from the part of me who realizes the Muslim population has now been opened up to a whole new level of scrutiny, of oppression; from the part of me who, on whatever level, realizes parts are not wholes and should not be treated as such… thank you. Thank you.
@Pavlov You may frame the rhetoric any way you desire. The simple fact is you are involved in a holy war whether you want to be or not. The Maccabees were extremists, the Jews at Masada were extremissts the Knights Templar were extremists, the Klan were extremists, the Nazi were extremists, the Meiji were extremists. None the less the whole society was embroiled in holy war. Like it or not this time it's Muslims against the Crusaders and eventually you're gonna have to pick your side. Because the end game for ISIS propaganda will be a mainstream that is something like this. Exhibit 1
Unless western society gets stuff it together ISIS will mainstream and export their terror from within on a global scale. Being Chamberlain isn't gonna cut,it a Churchill will have to emerge.
@cranky1950 No, NO NO NO NO NO. This is exactly what they want. This is what they are pushing for. They will not force me into their war. Picking a side is far different than waging a war. You cannot make me, or anyone else fight in a war.
@darkzrobe I was thinking that exact thing this morning. The problem is that people are tribalistic monsters. Sure there are individual examples of worthy humans but, taken as a whole, it's just a matter of time before we destroy ourselves and/or the earth.
it is a uniquely painful experience to have to temper your mourning of senseless violence with the understanding of the reality that you're going to be held responsible for something you have nothing to do with. even the simplest of gestures, like this thread, help.
@hallmike I'm white and my name is Steven and I don't practice as much as I used to, so I can't claim to feel the brunt of this. this is still my community, though, and I have plenty of friends whose religion is embedded in their names and their ethnicity and their attire, and it kills me that I have to legitimately worry for their safety when they're the people who have welcomed me into their community and their homes and invited me over for holidays and fed and sheltered me any time I needed it. it's unfair that any of us have to defend our humanity from folks who are reluctant to accept it, but that's made easier by every individual who speaks up even when it's difficult or unpopular, so I mean it deeply and sincerely when I say thank you.
Honestly, I don't really give a shit about your religion, sexual preference, nationality, income, sex, age, skin color, etc... as long as you at least try to not be a total douche, you are OK by me.
2) "Religion" has not been a constant. You could argue that these guys had it and those other guys didn't, but the "it" would not be the same thing, so what's the point?
Even the big 3 that we all assume are constants are anything but. The center of gravity for Christianity, for instance, has oscillated between God the Father and Jesus Christ. (We're in the middle of a fairly strong push away from Jesus and back towards God and the Old Testament right now, as measured by simple things like % of sermons instructing good works vs keeping others in line.)
If this thing we call religion has not been anything remotely resembling a constant, then who gets to play God by decreeing who has it and who doesn't?
A link posted to Twitter today with several recommendations about it being a good source for understanding ISIS/ISIL; the article is from early this year. Its from The Atlantic, so take it for what its worth, but I spent time today following up some of the info (just tunneling on the net) and it doesn't sound like they are making things up, and though they do get into their usual editorializing near the end, they don't appear to be taking things out of context, or being either apologists or spinning about ISIS.
Throughout history there have been extreme branches of virtually every religion. That does not condemn "religion". It condemns the extremists.
The enemy is not Islam. The enemy is extremism and radicalism.
However, today by far the most predominant and geographically broad & violent extremism is Islamic Extremism. It is state-funded by Islamic governments.
To claim otherwise is to stick one's head in the sand.
Comparing it to isolated contemporary terrorist acts committed in the name of religion/KKK/white extremists trivializes the hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims who have been raped, enslaved, beheaded and tortured.
It cannot be eliminated without an honest assessment of what it is. Islamic Terrorism.
Who's comparing it to contemporary? The comparison has typically been to historical.
Islam is leading the pack in extremism because of guns/germs/steel meets punctuated equilibrium multiplied by a flat earth. It's its time. A thousand years ago, it was someone else's. A thousand years from now, who knows.
Not downplaying the fact that they are guilty as charged. Just disputing your insinuation that everyone else's problems get a free pass because they're not as bad right now.
@RedOak So, we should dismiss the other blatant acts of extremism and terrorism - regardless of the fact that people were still seriously harmed? I think not. Extremism in any form is dangerous and should be rooted out. Let's not forget that we helped create the culture and government that breeds extremists in the middle east - and we have fostered that hate for decades. We got overly involved in other nations politics, arming militia group after militia group, toppling steady, progressive regimes that didn't quite do what we wanted them to do, creating a power void and chaos, then leaving the civilians to clean up our mess. Desperate people are more likely to cling to extremist doctrines when all else fails. But let's blame Islam, a religion practiced by 1.6 billion people across the world, peacefully. Since we're giving an honest assessment of what is happening.
@Thumperchick who is saying to "dismiss"? And BTW, the "Christian" crusades were no where near as broadly impacting nor deadly if you want to compare.
Yah, so people get crazy and let's blame ourselves. No, these are kooky extremists. They don't simply want to be left alone. They want every other religion on earth - and for that matter non-religious people converted or eliminated. Making excuses for them is silly. Stick head in sand. Hitler. Honestly.
Comparing it to isolated contemporary terrorist acts committed in the name of religion/KKK/white extremists trivializes the hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims who have been raped, enslaved, beheaded and tortured.
Comparing terrorism to terrorism is perfectly logical.
I never mentioned the crusades or any historical religious persecution. I clearly stated that politics and government meddling added to this issue, highlighting the point that the religion itself is not the culprit - but desperation and lack of resources are generally more likely to make people turn to extremism as a solution.
You set up several arguments that I never made, so you could knock them down - but you never truly addressed my point.
@Thumperchick I did not dismiss them. I said comparing them to scale of Islamic Terrorism as was done in the above posts (which you agreed with) trivialized the much broader and higher numbers of Islamic Terrorism. It does.
So we went there. It happened. It probably should not have happened. How would you like to take it back now?
And do you really believe if we had not gone there the very same thing would not have happened? They are invading Russia. And attempting to do so in China. And Europe, including countries that had nothing to do with interfering in the Middle East. They want everyone else dead or converted. Their words.
@RedOak There is no doubt that this group of extremists are absolutely using some twisted brand of Islam as their basis for war. There is clearly no denying that. The reason we put that reminder out there is that people have retaliated against peaceful people, when others hiding behind their religion commit atrocities. While we can all understand that they are Islamic Terrorists, the sentiment that it is extremism and not Islam that is the problem should be made very clear - lest fear cause people to harm peaceful Islamic citizens around the world.
The reason I make this point is this - from your other comments, I think we have common ground here. Religion is not the enemy. Crazy people are the enemy. This week, they're wearing the mask of Islam.
@RedOak tbh if you ask any Muslim (although it doesn't sound like that's in your agenda) most will agree that the governments in charge of Muslim-majority countries are total shit shows. I choose that wording very carefully, because to call the KSA and others "Islamic governments" is so absurdly off base. the only reason they have any religious aspect is because of the power and control that brings along with it. that's been the case since the pact between Saud and Abdul-Wahhab. it's always been about authority and nothing more.
And I can't see that you are trying to accomplish anything but putting a label on it.
Which will not help in any way towards defeating it.
I totally get what your trying to do. But it doesn't accomplish anything.
We like nice convenient labels. Makes stuff easier to get our heads around. But im not sure how anything you've said helps us defeat it. If anything, it steers us towards the wrong target, in terms of weakening it. Unless the goal is WWIII and simply wiping them off the face of the earth.
It's not sticking ones head in the sand. It's focusing on actionable intelligence. Don't tell me what's wrong – tell me what you're going to do about what's wrong.
It is important to call these Islamic Terrorists what they are because...
They are not like the much smaller scale examples listed above. (That does not "dismiss" those other atrocities - it is a distinction of world-involving scale)
Islamic Terrorists are much closer to Nazi Germany than Westerners have admitted.
They don't simply want to make waves or draw attention.
They want universal change in the world. They want other ways of life eliminated.
They want 100% of the world under their Religion.
They want the right not to practice a religion eliminated.
They are steadily gaining the power to accomplish their goals.
They want brutal, heathen Sharia Law implemented everywhere.
In Sharia Law they have allies - less extremist Islamic allies who do not directly participate in Terrorist actions. Less extremist Muslims, Muslims who vote with them.
There are an increasing number of significant cities in Europe that are at risk of democratically becoming cities governed by Sharia Law.
Islamic countries don't separate "Religion" and "Government". The two are one.
This isn't just a bunch of kooks eager for their virgins in heaven.
To hint this is driven by people who are poor and desperate ignores the facts. Islamic Terrorists do prey on those people, but the money comes from Islamic states and wealthy families in states we label our friends - like Saudi Arabia. They recruit from wealthy countries as well, including the United States.
Islamic Terrorist recruitment is helped by Western weakness. Nobody who isn't already part of the party wants to join an organization that is getting bloodied.
Islamic Terrorist leaders love to see Westerners apologizing for their actions, not calling it "Islamic". It further angers and motivates them.
While we sleep Islamic Terrorism grows. And it is not "generic" Terrorism. To treat it so ignores its motivation and roots. It is Islamic Terrorism, ingrained in Middle East Islamic states and societies.
All religions can be backtracked to a starting point geographically. None have sprung up in other parts of the world as the same religion, which is why some religions have people going door to door trying to convert others. If there were one God with the power it (God) is suppose to have, it (God) would have spread the one true religion to every corner of earth and all of the fighting and killing over which was right would cease. Not seeing that, I have to believe that all religion is man made.
@Kyser_Soze I'm of the opinion that if we had "one true religion" - we'd bicker about the best way to be that religion. You see it in every major religion - people create their own factions and ways to use their documents and decide that's the best way to be XYZ religion.
@djslack That's perfect! I think the atheist beavers episode of SouthPark perfectly illustrated my belief of our silliness in this. Everyone is atheist, they're fighting a war about who the "better" atheist is. smh.
@spacezorro Except, what we call extremism is really more fringe. It's picking out this and that variable, adding them up into some bizarre sum, and riding that to the extreme. The mass of the group doesn't get to define the extreme. The vocal, the violent, the squeaky wheel — they get the PR, and the world makes them the 'extreme.' However great or little their involvement with the core, the CNNs, the WaPos, the Foxes define them. The innocent do not.
@brhfl I'm sure that there are some perfectly nice racist people in the world that have never actually harmed anyone. They probably look at the kkk or neo-nazis and say "they go way to far with their hatred.. They are too extreme for me"
But at the end of the day a bigot is a bigot.
And someone that belives in a violent dogma .. Belives in a violent dogma.
@spacezorro Being an active participant in a group that is outwardly, vocally hateful is harmful, regardless of whether any of the members of that specific sect directly attack any member of an oppressed group, either physically or emotionally or whatever.
I live in a small, relatively conservative town. A few years ago, we decided we have enough queer folks that we could actually have our own pride parade. Huzzah! That year, and every year since, the Klan (we have several active local chapters) has crashed our celebration. They haven't killed nor directly attacked any of us. They haven't needed to. They, in whatever capacity they legally found, disrupted our peace. Additionally, they reminded all of us of the violence we have experienced. To put it explicitly: a KKK member 'peacefully' and legally crashing my pride parade floods my mind with all the memories of having been assaulted, threatened, chased, for what? Having stubble and no chest and wearing peplum.
I don't mean to steer the conversation toward my own oppression. What I've dealt with is nothing compared to what has happened in France. Nothing. But, to somehow give someone whose heart is filled with hate a pass because they have never punched a brown person, a woman, a queer… The subtle, lightweight bigotry is often worse. It's pervasive. It sneaks into our thoughts. It attacks our indecisiveness. As someone who has had their ass kicked by a bigot, I'd take that over the subtle decay brought upon by passivity and casual disgust.
@Thumperchick Yes, I am trying to say that someone can be nice in a majority of social interactions, but have fucked beliefs that ruin others.
As an example my paternal aunt was a nice racist person.
She didn't attend my wedding reception (she went to the service) because my wife is not white enough for her. She told me that she was happy for me but it was a shame that I couldn't find a nice Catholic Irish girl.
That's fucked up and racist... But she was still a nice aunt the other 99.9% of the time.
I'm just arguing that there is no difference between the kkk's hate and religious based hate. They are both hate. (Like the recent mormon church crap...)
For some reason religious people get a pass on their hate because it is bordered by whatever nice things they do.
No one knows for sure about anything. Not the meaning of life, not is there really a God? Not if there really is one true religion? No one knows. Not for sure. No one knows! I don't care how many quotes from so many different books anyone spouts. Each individual decides for themselves what they choose to believe about God or no God. But when you have a group of people who think they know the way everyone should believe and they are the true righteous? Yeah, most of the time they are just annoying. Radical muslims are different., If you don't believe the way they do and live the way they say, you can either convert to their way of thinking or They will kill you. Kill you. This is a world problem
@mick See the article in my post above. Everything ISIS is doing is in full compliance with the written Koran, and with their selection of the interpretation of the Hadith (nominally the recorded quotations of Mohammed's statements concerning a lot of subjects).
They are not 'radical' or extremist, save by modern interpretations of those words. They are fundamentalists, using and keeping to the raw, original words and intent of the Koran and Hadith; they see themselves as furthering the prophecies calling for a renewed caliphate and eventually the apocalypse, and they are serving Allah's will using the same methods that Mohammed used and prescribed for spreading Dar al Islam (where Sharia law and Islamic leaders rule, and some selected religions may be tolerated but their adherents taxed, and submission as subjects to the Islamic state is mandatory, and the rest are converted or killed).
There's a lot of real info out there about historical Islam, and its evolution through the centuries; more recently there's also a whole lot of whitewashing and apologist fluff that tries to minimize some of the more uncomfortable parts. Its an exercise for the reader to do the digging, and the research, and not just accept without question the talking points and headlines.
@duodec Sort of like The Old Testament vs. the New Testament? Religions have been evolving and changing as times march on, since their inception. If someone wants to find a "holy" justification for any action, they can surely pervert any text enough to do so.
@duodec lol at "original intent" - when it comes to interpretation of the Quran or of hadith, there are so many different factors to be considered to determine the intent of a command. that includes the time of a revelation, who it was being revealed to, whether the command was specific to an event of the time or a general one to serve as a rule. IS uses a huge amount of academic dishonesty in this regard, whether it's by using weak and disproven hadith or by applying a specific verse and warping it to a general situation. the reason they get away with it is because the people they convince tend to have no interest in an actual Islamic education. they also tend to be poor, desperate, and part of an oppressed group.
there are absolutely ugly bits to be seen. we're talking about a religion that had to be relevant to tribes in times of warfare. but the interpretations of IS are not at all mainstream or even palatable ones, or else you wouldn't see so many Muslims not only denying them but literally fleeing them in droves at a great personal risk.
@Thumperchick Except in this case they are not perverting it (as far as I've been able to find). They are taking it completely literally, the raw unvarnished, and un-modernized words set down in the decades/centuries after Mohammed's death.
Its all there; establishing the caliphate, that the caliph must be descended of a certain family, the continuous state of war that the caliph must maintain (until all the world is under Islam), that only temporary truces with unclean infidels are allowed, that any truce that is not totally compliant with Islam is null and void, that there is no dishonor in breaking oaths or truces made with unbelievers, that slavery is acceptable, that killing unbelievers who do not convert is serving Allah...
All of that is there in the texts. And for ISIS that makes it their sacred duty.
@duodec so much of this is demonstrably false, so I gotta imagine you haven't looked too hard. 2:256 establishes that there is no compulsion to convert, and killing folks would certainly qualify. 10:99 establishes that there is no intent for Islam to be the sole religion. 3:20 similarly establishes the right to deny, and says the duty of a Muslim has still been fulfilled if that occurs. 5:99 does the same.
the two latter verses were revealed in Medinah, when Muslims had established power, so is understood that these rulings were to act as general ones for future generations.
The Koran is EVIL, the Koran is not evil. The Koran can be easily read. The Koran is complex and can only be read by those that speak the language. WHICH is IT? Others say Allah is really SATAN or Allah is the supreme being. Which is it? One thing for sure, modern day Muslims kill innocent people in the name of Allah.... You decide.
@DrunkCat And how glorious French Champagne is. I spent the second half of July in Belgium visiting a very good friend and for a few days we stayed at his families apartment in the south about 3 miles from the French border. One of the days we were down there we drove into the champagne region and went to about 5 different champagne houses. I wanted to buy a case from every place we went, and it was cheap too way cheaper than you'd pay here. I ended up getting one case from Champagne Chassenay D'Arce for about 105 euro(about $120 at the time) which came with 6 bottles and by some miracle packed the hell out of it and got all the bottles home intact. Immediately after getting home however, my evil family assumed the bottles where presents for them, and would leave me the hell alone about it until they made off with 3 of the bottles. Over here the same champagne is about 50 dollars a bottle if you can find it.
I know about zero when it comes to wine/sparkling wine and I've never much cared for it. But man oh man the stuff I brought home was delicious, I had planned to save it for Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc but it was gone within a couple months of coming back. And now I'm sad and want some more.
@Saffer49 Need a new drink based on lower-end Champagne. The French 75 was named for a cannon. What's the name for the planes they used today? Perhaps some recipe experiments are due.
Everyone has good points on this subject not ( drunkcat)lol. In this day and age, stoning, beheading, enslaving , bombing, killing people because they don't have the same exact thoughts and beliefs as you. Is just wrong. I don't care if your beliefs say it's the right thing to do, I don't care how you got to these beliefs. I don't care if your circumstances forced you into them. The majority of people on this earth know these actions taken against other human beings is wrong. You can't do these things, you don't do these things, for any reason! That's why most people of EVERY religion don't condone these terrible acts. Period. We all have much more in common, than we do in differences.
@mick The way I see it, being religious is like joining an AAA-like NAMBLA for discounts on air flights and hotels. The core message is easily ignored, discarded and cherry picked for the goodies (e.g. afterlife).
@Thumperchick There are really utterly offensive and ridiculous things in holy texts. I would argue that they're worse in fact. And it's not like there's not an overlap.
@DrunkCat It is impossible to have a logical discussion based on such an obviously far-fetched concept. Religion is not the same as advocating for child abuse.
Is no one going to point out (or did I miss it?) that from a lot of folks' perspectives the US is a state sponsor of terrorism?
We bomb the holy living fuck out of other nations for little more than our economic interests and to uphold our right to possess and waste more of the world's resources than most others.
In multitudes of ways we have birthed both the Taliban and ISIS. We subjugate, oppress and exploit and we take cause with those who do the same. Fuck, what's more is that we've educated and enculturated more than of few of the violent, narcissistic nut jobs who lead these extremist groups.
Meanwhile we spread empty Consumerism (yes, that's hypocritical from a guy hanging out an ecommerce site), Individualism and Social Darwinism, arguably as core spiritual values.
And then we wonder how a world growing up in that cesspool of our ubiquitous influence has breed.
Do I think it's all our fault? No. Do I think all Americans are douchebags? Not exactly. But I do think that Americans are culpable, Christians are culpable, Muslims are culpable, atheists are culpable, people are culpable. I am culpable.
And I'm sick and fucking tired of the idiots who are always wanting to point a finger so that they can feel superior and somehow morally pure. That, my friends, as others have rightly noted or implied, is a big fucking part of the problem: this attitude that we can neatly differentiate us from them. Shortly from there follows the right--yea, verily, the responsibility--to bomb the fuck out of them, because they're the problem, see, and we're only doing what's best for the species. Fuck you fuckers who are sure that you have the right to kill in the name of all of the rest of us. Fuck you in the most unpleasant ways. Figuratively of course. What I really want is for you to be enlightened and become one of the dreamers and the peacemakers. But good gods, wake the fuck up already.
@joelmw I must say I love this. I don't even have enough words to correctly express how much. I do not love that it's TRUE. I love that you said it. <3
@joelmw there's a lot in these here f-words. here's a snip from a recent tweet-thread I read that's in line with all that.
"dehumanising a violent actor effaces the conditions which brought about their cruelty. erasing these conditions is more than an excuse for (equally violent) retributive 'justice', but an enforcement of a Manichean ideology. to simply rule out violent human individuals as tainted, or evil, rules out the need to consider what stimulated or triggered the violence. violence is brought about by various factors of deprivation - be it social, or economic (usually both) - dehumanisation discards these. we can have all the odium in the world for people who wreak havoc on others, but if we do this to ignore the dire need for structural change then the violence will continue as the ouroboros it is. it seems to me that our outrage and condemnation comes from a place of empathy, but is then tainted by the ignorance of behaviour. we rush to show we care by demanding that the perpetrators be killed, and thus the cause of the violence retreats back into the shadows. we strive to be the first to prove our humanity, and in the end we further the conditions of our facility."
@joelmw and I post that with full knowledge that the idea of acknowledging that terrorists are human will bother the fuck out of a bunch of people and maybe throw some accusations my way. for those, please find herein all the fucks I give:
And here's what else. How the fuck did it ever become okay for someone to spend 15 minutes listening to some delusional, backwards-ass talking head and then all of a sudden to be an expert on, well, any-fucking-thing?
I know a little bit. Mostly I know enough to know that there's a shitload that I don't know. I spent close to half a century on the inside of Christianity. I graduated from a Christian college. I more-or-less dedicated (ha, yes, I know that sounds funny; I'll keep it) my life to understanding its sacred text and kerygma. I buried myself in its music and language and literature. I spoke in tongues and did all sorts of spooky mumbo-jumbo Holy Spirit shit. I'm gonna guess that most of you haven't spent nearly that much time immersed in or even studying Islam.
And I know that I'm not the smartest, but I'm sure as fuck not the stupidest.
So, what do I know about the Gospel, about Yahweh and his boy, Jesus? Not much really. Not enough to say that I know for sure who either is or what they mean. I know that it's possible for people to take the same sacred text and turn it violent and or turn it peaceful, to make something horrible of it or something sublime. And thank whatever god you serve for the peaceful Christians. They're good folks.
But my point is that I don't have nearly the experience with the Koran or Islam, but I'm pretty sure that the same is true there and I laugh scornfully at all of you dumbfucks who are sure you've got either all figured out.
Why is this thread here? Why would you bring this here? There are 1000000000000000 other places to stir a pot of trouble. Is it an important issue? sure. Is this the platform for such a discussion? No. All this does is lead to grandstanding, soap boxing, trolling, poking, and getting people worked up. Please stop trying to ruin Meh.
@RedHot Honestly, I don't think it's because people truly want a platform for whatever holier-than-thou opinion is brewing in their mind. I think it's because tragedies like this are difficult to deal with, and whoever you think is to blame, whatever you think is to blame, whatever you think the solution may be… it's easier to deal with it inside a trusted community. It's been a little bit heated inside this thread, but frankly given the severity of the discourse, I think it's been astonishingly civil given that this is still the internet…
@brhfl The civility just doesn't stick around long. It has here longer then it would many other places I'm sure but eventually this kind of thing starts to drive the more pleasant users away. Myself excluded as I am not usually considered pleasant.
but you're right, rarely is anyone actually looking for discussion and instead come looking for unsuspecting people to impress their opinions upon.
@RedHot Overall, we're pretty good about leaving a debate in the thread it started in, while still enjoying the other threads and people here. There was a little heat here, but not much in the way of name-calling or flame war type behavior. It's a hell of a lot more civil than facebook this week!
The greatest sadness for the world today may well be the ancient dictum, "If you would have peace, prepare for war".
I don't see the mosques fingering the extreme elements of their communities and silence is the same as participation. So yes,as it now stands, the enemy is Islam.
@cranky1950 you mean the way we did with the Tsarnaev brothers?
@Lotsofgoats I think many people expect more than just once in a while and after the explosion.
@radi0j0hn the reality is that perpetrators like this often DON'T attend mosques and that Muslims are overwhelmingly the VICTIMS of acts of terror. trying to hold the Muslim community responsible is bullshit.
@cranky1950
I don't see Christian churches fingering the extreme elements of their communities - is their silence then also the same as participation?
The Ku Klux Klan burned down black churches, raped women, murdered civil rights workers, and murdered children for over a century. To this very day they still terrorize communities.
They attend church on Sunday.
The Neo Nazis all acted and continue to act in the name of white Christian supremacy. The Army of God fatally attacks abortion clinics and doctors across the country. The Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord targets and kills local police and federal agents.
They all attend church on Sunday.
Terrorism is not largely or exclusively an Islamic phenomenon. Aside from the likes of the IRA (yeah, church on Sunday!), let's look at just a few incidents on American soil.
On Aug. 5, 2012, white supremacist Wade Michael Page used a semiautomatic weapon to murder six people during an attack on a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Page’s connection to the white supremacist movement was well-documented: he had been a member of the neo-Nazi rock bands End Empathy and Definite Hate. He was a white male and attended church on Sunday.
On July 27, 2008, Christian Right sympathizer Jim David Adkisson walked into the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee during a children’s play and began shooting people at random. Two were killed, while seven others were injured but survived. Adkisson went to church every Sunday.
Eric Rudolph, who is serving life without parole for a long list of terrorist attacks committed in the name of Christianity. Rudolph is best known for carrying out the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta during the 1996 Summer Olympics—a blast that killed spectator Alice Hawthorne and wounded 111 others. Hawthorne wasn’t the only person Rudolph murdered: his bombing of an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama in 1998 caused the death of Robert Sanderson (a Birmingham police officer and part-time security guard) and caused nurse Emily Lyons to lose an eye. Rudolph’s other acts of Christian terrorism include bombing the Otherwise Lounge (a lesbian bar in Atlanta) in 1997 and an abortion clinic in an Atlanta suburb in 1997. Rudolph was no lone wolf: he was part of a terrorist movement that encouraged his violence. And the Army of God continues to exalt Rudolph as a brave Christian who is doing God’s work. Rudolph went to church every Sunday - and still does while in prison in Colorado.
In 1994, the radical anti-abortionist and Army of God member John C. Salvi attacked a Planned Parenthood clinic in Brookline, Massachusetts, shooting and killing receptionists Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols and wounding several others. Salvi was found dead in his prison cell in 1996, and his death was ruled a suicide. The Army of God has exalted Salvi as a Christian martyr and described Lowney and Nichols not as victims of domestic terrorism, but as infidels who got what they deserved. The Rev. Donald Spitz, a Christianist and Army of God supporter who is so extreme that even the radical anti-abortion group Operation Rescue disassociated itself from him, has praised Salvi as well. Salvi attended church on Sunday.
The list goes on and on . . .
The enemy is not religion. The enemy is extremism and radicalism.
@Pavlov I was starting a response in my head, but you covered it. Thanks!
@Pavlov When I saw the title to this thread, my first hope was that you contributed your thoughts. Thank you for contributing not just your two cents, but your common sense.
@cranky1950
You don't see it ... from your seat in which row of which mosque?
Or do you mean, you don't see it on the cable news source of your choice?
There's a lot of shit I don't see, either, cuz I'm not physically there, but I don't automatically assume it ain't happening.
@Pavlov I am not a religious person by any means. I am, however, well rooted in being a member of oppressed groups. None vilified on quite the level that we see Islam vilified upon, but I see these things, and I can't help but wonder what the future holds. I can't pretend to understand what it's like for Muslims who need trust, representation, anything to lean on right now. I can't. But, to a very different degree, I know it sucks having nobody in your corner. From the part of me who knows I could be under serious attack some day; from the part of me who realizes the Muslim population has now been opened up to a whole new level of scrutiny, of oppression; from the part of me who, on whatever level, realizes parts are not wholes and should not be treated as such… thank you. Thank you.
@Pavlov You may frame the rhetoric any way you desire. The simple fact is you are involved in a holy war whether you want to be or not. The Maccabees were extremists, the Jews at Masada were extremissts the Knights Templar were extremists, the Klan were extremists, the Nazi were extremists, the Meiji were extremists. None the less the whole society was embroiled in holy war. Like it or not this time it's Muslims against the Crusaders and eventually you're gonna have to pick your side. Because the end game for ISIS propaganda will be a mainstream that is something like this.
Exhibit 1
@cranky1950 Is this memo from an extremist?
Exhibit2
Unless western society gets stuff it together ISIS will mainstream and export their terror from within on a global scale. Being Chamberlain isn't gonna cut,it a Churchill will have to emerge.
@Pavlov I love you!
@cranky1950 No, NO NO NO NO NO. This is exactly what they want. This is what they are pushing for. They will not force me into their war. Picking a side is far different than waging a war. You cannot make me, or anyone else fight in a war.
@Pavlov I agree with you.
The enemy is people. I for one welcome our robot overlords. Hail Hal.
@darkzrobe I was thinking that exact thing this morning. The problem is that people are tribalistic monsters. Sure there are individual examples of worthy humans but, taken as a whole, it's just a matter of time before we destroy ourselves and/or the earth.
@SSteve Herd mentality is a scary thing. I always get reminded of the movie "The Mist" when I think of people in groups.
@darkzrobe
I'm a damned fine specimen. I worry about the rest of you.
it is a uniquely painful experience to have to temper your mourning of senseless violence with the understanding of the reality that you're going to be held responsible for something you have nothing to do with. even the simplest of gestures, like this thread, help.
@Lotsofgoats I can't even image the feeling, but add my name to the list of those who will stand with you.
@hallmike I'm white and my name is Steven and I don't practice as much as I used to, so I can't claim to feel the brunt of this. this is still my community, though, and I have plenty of friends whose religion is embedded in their names and their ethnicity and their attire, and it kills me that I have to legitimately worry for their safety when they're the people who have welcomed me into their community and their homes and invited me over for holidays and fed and sheltered me any time I needed it. it's unfair that any of us have to defend our humanity from folks who are reluctant to accept it, but that's made easier by every individual who speaks up even when it's difficult or unpopular, so I mean it deeply and sincerely when I say thank you.
@Lotsofgoats What @hallmike said.
I recommend a book published some years ago if you can find it. It was called Terror in the Name of God
https://books.google.com/books/about/Terror_in_the_Name_of_God.html?id=13iAVXvu6jQC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
@Cerridwyn
I'd add The Battle for God, by Karen Armstrong. Hell, anything by Karen Armstrong.
@MehnofLaMehncha Thanks for the recommendation. Going to put it on my list
Well said. Violence in the name of God is never acceptable. In any form.
@lisaviolet Violence in any form is never acceptable. Violence in the name of a peaceful God is abhorrent.
My heart is so broken that I don't know it will heal. Count me in as one who will stand with you, @Lotsofgoats.
Honestly, I don't really give a shit about your religion, sexual preference, nationality, income, sex, age, skin color, etc... as long as you at least try to not be a total douche, you are OK by me.
@hallmike Well put my friend. Hallmark card material.
@pepsiwine
When you care enough to post the very best.
@hallmike And let's face facts...The people of Isis are total douches.
They looked like Muslims dancing in the streets when the towers came down. Same attitude since 624 AD.
Dr Qanta Ahmed has just explained that these are actually attacks on Islam, to stigmatize Muslim immigrants. Wow.
I have been saying this forever and will continue to do so.
Religion is one of the most deadly poisons known to man.
@Saffer49 and conversely, the absence of religion has brought down every great society.
Man at the center removes civilization.
The problem is not "religion" - it is extremism in any form.
@RedOak
Which great societies are those again?
Cuz, two things:
1) They weren't really all that great,
and
2) "Religion" has not been a constant. You could argue that these guys had it and those other guys didn't, but the "it" would not be the same thing, so what's the point?
Even the big 3 that we all assume are constants are anything but. The center of gravity for Christianity, for instance, has oscillated between God the Father and Jesus Christ. (We're in the middle of a fairly strong push away from Jesus and back towards God and the Old Testament right now, as measured by simple things like % of sermons instructing good works vs keeping others in line.)
If this thing we call religion has not been anything remotely resembling a constant, then who gets to play God by decreeing who has it and who doesn't?
A link posted to Twitter today with several recommendations about it being a good source for understanding ISIS/ISIL; the article is from early this year. Its from The Atlantic, so take it for what its worth, but I spent time today following up some of the info (just tunneling on the net) and it doesn't sound like they are making things up, and though they do get into their usual editorializing near the end, they don't appear to be taking things out of context, or being either apologists or spinning about ISIS.
Here
Throughout history there have been extreme branches of virtually every religion. That does not condemn "religion". It condemns the extremists.
However, today by far the most predominant and geographically broad & violent extremism is Islamic Extremism. It is state-funded by Islamic governments.
To claim otherwise is to stick one's head in the sand.
Comparing it to isolated contemporary terrorist acts committed in the name of religion/KKK/white extremists trivializes the hundreds of thousands of non-Muslims who have been raped, enslaved, beheaded and tortured.
It cannot be eliminated without an honest assessment of what it is. Islamic Terrorism.
@RedOak
Who's comparing it to contemporary? The comparison has typically been to historical.
Islam is leading the pack in extremism because of guns/germs/steel meets punctuated equilibrium multiplied by a flat earth. It's its time. A thousand years ago, it was someone else's. A thousand years from now, who knows.
Not downplaying the fact that they are guilty as charged. Just disputing your insinuation that everyone else's problems get a free pass because they're not as bad right now.
@MehnofLaMehncha see above posts.
@RedOak So, we should dismiss the other blatant acts of extremism and terrorism - regardless of the fact that people were still seriously harmed? I think not. Extremism in any form is dangerous and should be rooted out.
Let's not forget that we helped create the culture and government that breeds extremists in the middle east - and we have fostered that hate for decades.
We got overly involved in other nations politics, arming militia group after militia group, toppling steady, progressive regimes that didn't quite do what we wanted them to do, creating a power void and chaos, then leaving the civilians to clean up our mess. Desperate people are more likely to cling to extremist doctrines when all else fails.
But let's blame Islam, a religion practiced by 1.6 billion people across the world, peacefully.
Since we're giving an honest assessment of what is happening.
@Thumperchick who is saying to "dismiss"? And BTW, the "Christian" crusades were no where near as broadly impacting nor deadly if you want to compare.
Yah, so people get crazy and let's blame ourselves. No, these are kooky extremists. They don't simply want to be left alone. They want every other religion on earth - and for that matter non-religious people converted or eliminated. Making excuses for them is silly. Stick head in sand. Hitler. Honestly.
@RedOak You dismissed them.
Comparing terrorism to terrorism is perfectly logical.
I never mentioned the crusades or any historical religious persecution. I clearly stated that politics and government meddling added to this issue, highlighting the point that the religion itself is not the culprit - but desperation and lack of resources are generally more likely to make people turn to extremism as a solution.
You set up several arguments that I never made, so you could knock them down - but you never truly addressed my point.
@Thumperchick I did not dismiss them. I said comparing them to scale of Islamic Terrorism as was done in the above posts (which you agreed with) trivialized the much broader and higher numbers of Islamic Terrorism. It does.
So we went there. It happened. It probably should not have happened. How would you like to take it back now?
And do you really believe if we had not gone there the very same thing would not have happened? They are invading Russia. And attempting to do so in China. And Europe, including countries that had nothing to do with interfering in the Middle East. They want everyone else dead or converted. Their words.
@Thumperchick Hopefully it is acceptable for us to simply disagree.
@RedOak There is no doubt that this group of extremists are absolutely using some twisted brand of Islam as their basis for war. There is clearly no denying that. The reason we put that reminder out there is that people have retaliated against peaceful people, when others hiding behind their religion commit atrocities.
While we can all understand that they are Islamic Terrorists, the sentiment that it is extremism and not Islam that is the problem should be made very clear - lest fear cause people to harm peaceful Islamic citizens around the world.
The reason I make this point is this - from your other comments, I think we have common ground here. Religion is not the enemy. Crazy people are the enemy. This week, they're wearing the mask of Islam.
@RedOak tbh if you ask any Muslim (although it doesn't sound like that's in your agenda) most will agree that the governments in charge of Muslim-majority countries are total shit shows. I choose that wording very carefully, because to call the KSA and others "Islamic governments" is so absurdly off base. the only reason they have any religious aspect is because of the power and control that brings along with it. that's been the case since the pact between Saud and Abdul-Wahhab. it's always been about authority and nothing more.
@RedOak
// and conversely, the absence of religion has brought down every great society. //
Read them all. Not seeing where you answered the question. List, please
@RedOak
No, you dismissed them.
And I can't see that you are trying to accomplish anything but putting a label on it.
Which will not help in any way towards defeating it.
I totally get what your trying to do. But it doesn't accomplish anything.
We like nice convenient labels. Makes stuff easier to get our heads around. But im not sure how anything you've said helps us defeat it. If anything, it steers us towards the wrong target, in terms of weakening it. Unless the goal is WWIII and simply wiping them off the face of the earth.
It's not sticking ones head in the sand. It's focusing on actionable intelligence. Don't tell me what's wrong – tell me what you're going to do about what's wrong.
@Thumperchick I think you might like this guy.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2015/11/the-price-of-civilization.html
@lisaviolet You are absolutely right. I like that guy. Thank you for sharing.
It is important to call these Islamic Terrorists what they are because...
They are not like the much smaller scale examples listed above. (That does not "dismiss" those other atrocities - it is a distinction of world-involving scale)
While we sleep Islamic Terrorism grows. And it is not "generic" Terrorism. To treat it so ignores its motivation and roots. It is Islamic Terrorism, ingrained in Middle East Islamic states and societies.
All religions can be backtracked to a starting point geographically. None have sprung up in other parts of the world as the same religion, which is why some religions have people going door to door trying to convert others. If there were one God with the power it (God) is suppose to have, it (God) would have spread the one true religion to every corner of earth and all of the fighting and killing over which was right would cease. Not seeing that, I have to believe that all religion is man made.
@Kyser_Soze I'm of the opinion that if we had "one true religion" - we'd bicker about the best way to be that religion. You see it in every major religion - people create their own factions and ways to use their documents and decide that's the best way to be XYZ religion.
@Kyser_Soze There is a big difference between spirituality and religion. They often have little to do with each other
@djslack That's perfect! I think the atheist beavers episode of SouthPark perfectly illustrated my belief of our silliness in this. Everyone is atheist, they're fighting a war about who the "better" atheist is. smh.
@Thumperchick True. See Emo Philips' famous religion joke for your assertion on display.
Edit: my post is out of order because I couldn't get the link formatted correctly
If your religion is a fundamentally peaceful one, then your extremists should be extremely peaceful.
@spacezorro Except, what we call extremism is really more fringe. It's picking out this and that variable, adding them up into some bizarre sum, and riding that to the extreme. The mass of the group doesn't get to define the extreme. The vocal, the violent, the squeaky wheel — they get the PR, and the world makes them the 'extreme.' However great or little their involvement with the core, the CNNs, the WaPos, the Foxes define them. The innocent do not.
@brhfl I'm sure that there are some perfectly nice racist people in the world that have never actually harmed anyone. They probably look at the kkk or neo-nazis and say "they go way to far with their hatred.. They are too extreme for me"
But at the end of the day a bigot is a bigot.
And someone that belives in a violent dogma .. Belives in a violent dogma.
@spacezorro
@spacezorro Being an active participant in a group that is outwardly, vocally hateful is harmful, regardless of whether any of the members of that specific sect directly attack any member of an oppressed group, either physically or emotionally or whatever.
I live in a small, relatively conservative town. A few years ago, we decided we have enough queer folks that we could actually have our own pride parade. Huzzah! That year, and every year since, the Klan (we have several active local chapters) has crashed our celebration. They haven't killed nor directly attacked any of us. They haven't needed to. They, in whatever capacity they legally found, disrupted our peace. Additionally, they reminded all of us of the violence we have experienced. To put it explicitly: a KKK member 'peacefully' and legally crashing my pride parade floods my mind with all the memories of having been assaulted, threatened, chased, for what? Having stubble and no chest and wearing peplum.
I don't mean to steer the conversation toward my own oppression. What I've dealt with is nothing compared to what has happened in France. Nothing. But, to somehow give someone whose heart is filled with hate a pass because they have never punched a brown person, a woman, a queer… The subtle, lightweight bigotry is often worse. It's pervasive. It sneaks into our thoughts. It attacks our indecisiveness. As someone who has had their ass kicked by a bigot, I'd take that over the subtle decay brought upon by passivity and casual disgust.
@Thumperchick …and you could've just saved me a quarter-thousand words. Dang my itchy fingers.
@Thumperchick Yes, I am trying to say that someone can be nice in a majority of social interactions, but have fucked beliefs that ruin others.
As an example my paternal aunt was a nice racist person.
She didn't attend my wedding reception (she went to the service) because my wife is not white enough for her. She told me that she was happy for me but it was a shame that I couldn't find a nice Catholic Irish girl.
That's fucked up and racist... But she was still a nice aunt the other 99.9% of the time.
@brhfl I agree with you.
I'm just arguing that there is no difference between the kkk's hate and religious based hate. They are both hate. (Like the recent mormon church crap...)
For some reason religious people get a pass on their hate because it is bordered by whatever nice things they do.
No one knows for sure about anything. Not the meaning of life, not is there really a God? Not if there really is one true religion? No one knows. Not for sure. No one knows! I don't care how many quotes from so many different books anyone spouts. Each individual decides for themselves what they choose to believe about God or no God. But when you have a group of people who think they know the way everyone should believe and they are the true righteous? Yeah, most of the time they are just annoying. Radical muslims are different., If you don't believe the way they do and live the way they say, you can either convert to their way of thinking or They will kill you. Kill you. This is a world problem
@mick See the article in my post above. Everything ISIS is doing is in full compliance with the written Koran, and with their selection of the interpretation of the Hadith (nominally the recorded quotations of Mohammed's statements concerning a lot of subjects).
They are not 'radical' or extremist, save by modern interpretations of those words. They are fundamentalists, using and keeping to the raw, original words and intent of the Koran and Hadith; they see themselves as furthering the prophecies calling for a renewed caliphate and eventually the apocalypse, and they are serving Allah's will using the same methods that Mohammed used and prescribed for spreading Dar al Islam (where Sharia law and Islamic leaders rule, and some selected religions may be tolerated but their adherents taxed, and submission as subjects to the Islamic state is mandatory, and the rest are converted or killed).
There's a lot of real info out there about historical Islam, and its evolution through the centuries; more recently there's also a whole lot of whitewashing and apologist fluff that tries to minimize some of the more uncomfortable parts. Its an exercise for the reader to do the digging, and the research, and not just accept without question the talking points and headlines.
@duodec Sort of like The Old Testament vs. the New Testament? Religions have been evolving and changing as times march on, since their inception. If someone wants to find a "holy" justification for any action, they can surely pervert any text enough to do so.
@duodec lol at "original intent" - when it comes to interpretation of the Quran or of hadith, there are so many different factors to be considered to determine the intent of a command. that includes the time of a revelation, who it was being revealed to, whether the command was specific to an event of the time or a general one to serve as a rule. IS uses a huge amount of academic dishonesty in this regard, whether it's by using weak and disproven hadith or by applying a specific verse and warping it to a general situation. the reason they get away with it is because the people they convince tend to have no interest in an actual Islamic education. they also tend to be poor, desperate, and part of an oppressed group.
there are absolutely ugly bits to be seen. we're talking about a religion that had to be relevant to tribes in times of warfare. but the interpretations of IS are not at all mainstream or even palatable ones, or else you wouldn't see so many Muslims not only denying them but literally fleeing them in droves at a great personal risk.
@Thumperchick Except in this case they are not perverting it (as far as I've been able to find). They are taking it completely literally, the raw unvarnished, and un-modernized words set down in the decades/centuries after Mohammed's death.
Its all there; establishing the caliphate, that the caliph must be descended of a certain family, the continuous state of war that the caliph must maintain (until all the world is under Islam), that only temporary truces with unclean infidels are allowed, that any truce that is not totally compliant with Islam is null and void, that there is no dishonor in breaking oaths or truces made with unbelievers, that slavery is acceptable, that killing unbelievers who do not convert is serving Allah...
All of that is there in the texts. And for ISIS that makes it their sacred duty.
@duodec A lot of that sounds like the raw brutality of the Old Testament to me. Slavery, rape, converting non-believers, war, murder...
@duodec so much of this is demonstrably false, so I gotta imagine you haven't looked too hard. 2:256 establishes that there is no compulsion to convert, and killing folks would certainly qualify. 10:99 establishes that there is no intent for Islam to be the sole religion. 3:20 similarly establishes the right to deny, and says the duty of a Muslim has still been fulfilled if that occurs. 5:99 does the same.
the two latter verses were revealed in Medinah, when Muslims had established power, so is understood that these rulings were to act as general ones for future generations.
The enemy is murderers who murder other human beings.
The Koran is EVIL, the Koran is not evil. The Koran can be easily read. The Koran is complex and can only be read by those that speak the language. WHICH is IT? Others say Allah is really SATAN or Allah is the supreme being. Which is it? One thing for sure, modern day Muslims kill innocent people in the name of Allah.... You decide.
Charlie Hebdo
@DrunkCat And how glorious French Champagne is. I spent the second half of July in Belgium visiting a very good friend and for a few days we stayed at his families apartment in the south about 3 miles from the French border. One of the days we were down there we drove into the champagne region and went to about 5 different champagne houses. I wanted to buy a case from every place we went, and it was cheap too way cheaper than you'd pay here. I ended up getting one case from Champagne Chassenay D'Arce for about 105 euro(about $120 at the time) which came with 6 bottles and by some miracle packed the hell out of it and got all the bottles home intact. Immediately after getting home however, my evil family assumed the bottles where presents for them, and would leave me the hell alone about it until they made off with 3 of the bottles. Over here the same champagne is about 50 dollars a bottle if you can find it.
I know about zero when it comes to wine/sparkling wine and I've never much cared for it. But man oh man the stuff I brought home was delicious, I had planned to save it for Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc but it was gone within a couple months of coming back. And now I'm sad and want some more.
@Saffer49 Need a new drink based on lower-end Champagne. The French 75 was named for a cannon. What's the name for the planes they used today? Perhaps some recipe experiments are due.
@DrunkCat @Saffer49
Translation: "They have weapons. Fuck them, we have champagne!"
Everyone has good points on this subject not ( drunkcat)lol. In this day and age, stoning, beheading, enslaving , bombing, killing people because they don't have the same exact thoughts and beliefs as you. Is just wrong. I don't care if your beliefs say it's the right thing to do, I don't care how you got to these beliefs. I don't care if your circumstances forced you into them. The majority of people on this earth know these actions taken against other human beings is wrong. You can't do these things, you don't do these things, for any reason! That's why most people of EVERY religion don't condone these terrible acts. Period. We all have much more in common, than we do in differences.
@mick The way I see it, being religious is like joining an AAA-like NAMBLA for discounts on air flights and hotels. The core message is easily ignored, discarded and cherry picked for the goodies (e.g. afterlife).
@DrunkCat Comparing religion to NAMBLA is utterly offensive and ridiculous. I'm not even religious and that grossed me out.
@Thumperchick There are really utterly offensive and ridiculous things in holy texts. I would argue that they're worse in fact. And it's not like there's not an overlap.
@DrunkCat It is impossible to have a logical discussion based on such an obviously far-fetched concept. Religion is not the same as advocating for child abuse.
@Thumperchick "obviously far-fetched concept"
Religious scholar Reza Aslan always makes good points when this topic comes up:
@DaveInSoCal For me, 4:45 to 7:00 sums it up rather fucking spot-on perfectly. Thanks for posting.
Is no one going to point out (or did I miss it?) that from a lot of folks' perspectives the US is a state sponsor of terrorism?
We bomb the holy living fuck out of other nations for little more than our economic interests and to uphold our right to possess and waste more of the world's resources than most others.
In multitudes of ways we have birthed both the Taliban and ISIS. We subjugate, oppress and exploit and we take cause with those who do the same. Fuck, what's more is that we've educated and enculturated more than of few of the violent, narcissistic nut jobs who lead these extremist groups.
Meanwhile we spread empty Consumerism (yes, that's hypocritical from a guy hanging out an ecommerce site), Individualism and Social Darwinism, arguably as core spiritual values.
And then we wonder how a world growing up in that cesspool of our ubiquitous influence has breed.
Do I think it's all our fault? No.
Do I think all Americans are douchebags? Not exactly. But I do think that Americans are culpable, Christians are culpable, Muslims are culpable, atheists are culpable, people are culpable. I am culpable.
And I'm sick and fucking tired of the idiots who are always wanting to point a finger so that they can feel superior and somehow morally pure. That, my friends, as others have rightly noted or implied, is a big fucking part of the problem: this attitude that we can neatly differentiate us from them. Shortly from there follows the right--yea, verily, the responsibility--to bomb the fuck out of them, because they're the problem, see, and we're only doing what's best for the species. Fuck you fuckers who are sure that you have the right to kill in the name of all of the rest of us. Fuck you in the most unpleasant ways. Figuratively of course. What I really want is for you to be enlightened and become one of the dreamers and the peacemakers. But good gods, wake the fuck up already.
@joelmw /bred (for "breed")
@joelmw
@joelmw you had me at "holy living fuck"
@joelmw I must say I love this. I don't even have enough words to correctly express how much.
I do not love that it's TRUE. I love that you said it.
<3
@joelmw there's a lot in these here f-words. here's a snip from a recent tweet-thread I read that's in line with all that.
"dehumanising a violent actor effaces the conditions which brought about their cruelty. erasing these conditions is more than an excuse for (equally violent) retributive 'justice', but an enforcement of a Manichean ideology. to simply rule out violent human individuals as tainted, or evil, rules out the need to consider what stimulated or triggered the violence. violence is brought about by various factors of deprivation - be it social, or economic (usually both) - dehumanisation discards these. we can have all the odium in the world for people who wreak havoc on others, but if we do this to ignore the dire need for structural change then the violence will continue as the ouroboros it is. it seems to me that our outrage and condemnation comes from a place of empathy, but is then tainted by the ignorance of behaviour. we rush to show we care by demanding that the perpetrators be killed, and thus the cause of the violence retreats back into the shadows. we strive to be the first to prove our humanity, and in the end we further the conditions of our facility."
@joelmw and I post that with full knowledge that the idea of acknowledging that terrorists are human will bother the fuck out of a bunch of people and maybe throw some accusations my way. for those, please find herein all the fucks I give:
And here's what else. How the fuck did it ever become okay for someone to spend 15 minutes listening to some delusional, backwards-ass talking head and then all of a sudden to be an expert on, well, any-fucking-thing?
I know a little bit. Mostly I know enough to know that there's a shitload that I don't know. I spent close to half a century on the inside of Christianity. I graduated from a Christian college. I more-or-less dedicated (ha, yes, I know that sounds funny; I'll keep it) my life to understanding its sacred text and kerygma. I buried myself in its music and language and literature. I spoke in tongues and did all sorts of spooky mumbo-jumbo Holy Spirit shit. I'm gonna guess that most of you haven't spent nearly that much time immersed in or even studying Islam.
And I know that I'm not the smartest, but I'm sure as fuck not the stupidest.
So, what do I know about the Gospel, about Yahweh and his boy, Jesus? Not much really. Not enough to say that I know for sure who either is or what they mean. I know that it's possible for people to take the same sacred text and turn it violent and or turn it peaceful, to make something horrible of it or something sublime. And thank whatever god you serve for the peaceful Christians. They're good folks.
But my point is that I don't have nearly the experience with the Koran or Islam, but I'm pretty sure that the same is true there and I laugh scornfully at all of you dumbfucks who are sure you've got either all figured out.
@joelmw This has got to be the smartest thing said in this thread (including my post below)....but that isn't saying much ;-)
Why is this thread here? Why would you bring this here? There are 1000000000000000 other places to stir a pot of trouble. Is it an important issue? sure. Is this the platform for such a discussion? No. All this does is lead to grandstanding, soap boxing, trolling, poking, and getting people worked up. Please stop trying to ruin Meh.
@RedHot
@RedHot Honestly, I don't think it's because people truly want a platform for whatever holier-than-thou opinion is brewing in their mind. I think it's because tragedies like this are difficult to deal with, and whoever you think is to blame, whatever you think is to blame, whatever you think the solution may be… it's easier to deal with it inside a trusted community. It's been a little bit heated inside this thread, but frankly given the severity of the discourse, I think it's been astonishingly civil given that this is still the internet…
@RedHot What would be the platform for this discussion?
@DrunkCat https://drone.horse/ :)
@brhfl The civility just doesn't stick around long. It has here longer then it would many other places I'm sure but eventually this kind of thing starts to drive the more pleasant users away. Myself excluded as I am not usually considered pleasant.
but you're right, rarely is anyone actually looking for discussion and instead come looking for unsuspecting people to impress their opinions upon.
@DrunkCat While I cannot define the location "I know it when I see it"
@RedHot Overall, we're pretty good about leaving a debate in the thread it started in, while still enjoying the other threads and people here. There was a little heat here, but not much in the way of name-calling or flame war type behavior.
It's a hell of a lot more civil than facebook this week!
@RedHot