The empathy instinct - anyone without successfully develop it?
8First, a definition so that we're all on the same page:
em·pa·thy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
I can empathize with people; that is, I can put myself in their shoes - but it's never instinctual. This causes me more grief than I'd like. I often hear someone's happy news and when there's an obvious (to me) down side that no one is commenting on, I don't pile on the happy train. My instinct is to go straight to bottom and be the wet blanket.
Case in point: An old friend's daughter just scheduled her first college visit to the University of Miami. Everyone was all, "Wow!" "Congrats!" "Your daughter has grown so much!" "You should be proud!"
In hindsight, that's the correct response. I did not choose that. Instead, I told them that I went there and I wouldn't recommend it (to someone from my working-class hometown.) There are issues with financial aid (probably not unique to UM). But more importantly, it's a rich kid's school. You can't keep up socially when you aren't spending Mom & Dad's money.
That makes me an asshole. I don't mind being an asshole, but I don't want that to be the cause. I want to be an asshole on my own terms.
Have any of you suffered from the same social ineptitude? Have you done anything to fix it? Has it worked?
- 20 comments, 58 replies
- Comment
Look on the bright side. You're not one of those worthless Yes Men. :D
This is me constantly. I constantly over think and analyze things. This is good in most situations because I can see the possible 'bad' in something and avoid it. However, I've noticed that people don't like their happy parade ruined by reality. I still give my two cents when necessary, but I've learned to keep my fingers still when it comes to most people's stupid FB 'look at me' posts.
@PurplePawprints I think my instinct is to imagine what my reaction to my posts would be, and not their reaction.
@PurplePawprints You have just encapsulated my main reasons for staying far, far away from Facebook. Posts there leave me feeling the pain of beating my head on a brick wall while watching IQ points leak out my ears. I especially hate the posts that give away far too much personal info about the kids that could put them at risk from stalkers/bullies, while the parents resent any mention of that idea. How dare anyone question their parenting! Etc.
In your example, both types of responses were perfectly correct... depending on the listener. I guess empathy comes into it, as it's about knowing your audience. How well do you know them and their motivations? What do they want for a response? What are they amenable to hearing as a response? Is responding really worth it?
From what you've written, it doesn't sound like you were an asshole at all, but it really depends on how you said it... and how they took it. For example, your response could have come across as insinuating that they're low-class and not good enough; it also could have come across as just solid advice about the negative aspects of a Uni culture you personally experienced. Or both! Or something else. Which all comes back to knowing your audience.
Did the old friend who mentioned the school visit say so because they were looking for advice? Or just casually mentioning it to make conversation? Or bragging? Are they insecure? Flashy? Humble? Honest? How have they reacted to unsolicited advice in the past? Do they ever ask for advice? Etc.
If you don't know the person well enough to gauge their intent and thus desire, then ask. Ask yourself all the above questions before answering. And if you don't know the answers, then ask the person involved: "are you interested in any serious advice about this?" And if that isn't feasible or comfortable, then just stay silent and keep it to yourself, because you don't actually HAVE to say anything at all. It's usually not that important or your business.
Well, at least that's how I approach it.
TL;DR: If you don't know your audience, ask your audience or say nothing at all.
@goldenthorn As you probably surmised, I condensed some of the explanation in my OP. The "old friend" is more of "someone I went to school with and reconnected with at a recent reunion." I don't really know what her reaction would be, nor do I know what it was. What I do know is the reaction of her husband. He was pissed that his daughter would see something negative when it was supposed to be excitement and celebration. He's right. I'm wrong.
@goldenthorn It was definitely a bragging post, but more pride & encouragement than brag.
@goldenthorn I have to train myself to recognize when people are not really soliciting advice. I'm always looking for opinions and real advice, except when I'm not. When I'm bragging, I just defuse or ignore the hecklers while digesting their advice.
@JerseyFrank I'm sorry, I'm slightly confused: was he pissed at you or just in general, about the potential negative environment of the college? The latter is a positive reaction from a parent--they care! The former is silly, even if you really obviously misread their desire for feedback.
The more you write, the less I'm seeing how you could have been an asshole or were wrong. It doesn't seem like you were at all either. Hah, then again, you are telling your own story, eh? ;-P
@JerseyFrank Goodness, gracious, life is all about diversity. While I understand his concern about wet blanketing his daughter's celebration -- it is life! His daughter/he need to learn that not everyone reacts to things the same. I just try to be cognizant of how I phrase things and how they might be perceived by others. It is a skill and it can be learned!
@goldenthorn @mikibell - It was good advice given in the wrong place. While I could use some work on my empathy skillz, I'm starting to think this is just evidence of the divide between social media and in-person communicaiton. I see it as giving good advice to a parent; He sees it as crushing his daughter's dreams (she could read the post). I think he was less concerned with the advice than he was seeing his kid bummed out by me posting it. She probably wouldn't give a shit because she's grown up in a world like that. I stopped giving a shit what his reaction to it was hours ago; I'm lingering on what I should do better. I'm going to be involved in more public-interaction roles for the foreseeable future and this shit has become relevant.
@JerseyFrank I'm sorry, you didn't specify in your original post that this occurred on social media. I assumed it was in-person. Huh, well. Yeah. That changes things a bit. When there is no opportunity for the context of physical cues and environment, one has to be even more self-aware and circumspect. Knowing your audience is all there is in written communication, whether it be literary or epistolary. Good luck!
@goldenthorn Yeah, FB drama.
@JerseyFrank I am this guy too. I've just kind of reached the point of saying things like "If you want to hear my experiences, good and bad, let me know." If my take's pretty negative, I'll maybe keep the conversation going to see if what they say can help me frame my opinions more. Because of the jobs I've had, most of my friends are 10-20 years younger than me, and a lot of them quite reasonably take the attitude of "Fine, whatever, let me make my own mistakes."
Some people appreciate warnings but others resent it. I try to stand back and let the latter pee on the electric fence without my interference.
@mikibell @JerseyFrank I think JerseyFrank is right to be concerned that his reaction wasn't the correct one given the situation. I know because I am exactly the same! I have to work hard to not provide unsolicited advice, even if more often than not I am very right. The right thing to say could have been as simple as "That's awesome, enjoy the visit! If you like it and have any questions about my experience there let me know and we can talk about it."
@tightwad and it's obvious if you stop to think about it. I need to develop the firewall that stops my thoughts from escaping through my fingers, unfiltered. Internet 2015 != Internet 1994.
@tightwad I wasn't disagreeing with @jerseyfrank. As I said, I try to keep in perspective how others will "hear" what I say. Sorta like reading the Allstate commercials in that guy's voice. It is hard to predict how other people will read/react to things. I was kinda knocking the dad who posted in a public forum and expected all happiness and light :)
@JerseyFrank Yup, I battle the same hindsight issue (usually my wife has kindly pointed out that I came across as an a-hole...)
@tightwad I have a husband who does that ;) He is the one who taught me to reflect on what I said, and make it more proactive!
@JerseyFrank - I've been in similar situations. As a sometimes trainer, it is imperative for me to see things from the others’ point of view.
It seems that you were relating to the conversation and trying to be helpful by sharing the benefit of your experience. The fact that you’re concerned enough about the incident to ask about it here says to me that your empathy is just fine.
Also, some say that emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than IQ for success and happiness: http://psychology.about.com/od/psychologyquotes/a/eiquotes.htm
And there’s a quiz to measure your EQ if you believe in online quizzes: http://psychology.about.com/library/quiz/bl_eq_quiz.htm edit: The scoring is kind of lame but the quiz does make you think.
I can relate, pretty much on a weekly basis. Keep in mind that she only scheduled a visit to Miami. If the dad said, she's taking a 50K loan to go to Miami, what do you think? Then he wants advice. Otherwise-advice won't be appreciated.
@naropa Yes, and when my wife tells me about her day, I'm supposed to say, "Mhmm." "Ok." "That's great." "Why?" and "I know you'll figure it out." and not approach everything as a problem to be solved. 14 years and I haven't gotten it right consistently yet.
@JerseyFrank At this point I am beginning to think we may be related...I know I relate to you on this! 18 years in and I still fix problems she doesn't want me to fix
@tightwad I spent the first 10 years rephrasing "Have you tried doing this?"
@JerseyFrank I've been told this is a difference between men and women. Women share info just to share, where men share info for solutions. So, men will see everything said to them as a 'problem'. Even if it's just 'this was my day.' I've learned to specify--if I'm looking for advice, I say that I'd like his opinion or feedback. If I'm not...I try to share it with my girlfriends instead.
@JerseyFrank Don't worry, despite really caring, and trying to change, I still often have the same issue despite 23 years into this [my second] marriage, a bachelor's in social psych, and more years than I wanna think about in management, medicine, and [not literally] as one of the guys in white coats [I did run group therapy and help restrain violent psych patients, I just didn't wear a white coat]. In fact, we met there [both working] on the psych unit, so she oughta know I have a need to fix and heal things, but it's STILL the wrong response...
I have learned that somebody asking for an "honest opinion" isn't searching for either. Sometimes I can hold myself to the careful, calculated, noncommital, bland response that won't get me in trouble. Sometimes I blurt out the truth of my opinion and resolve to make new friends if it comes to that. Speaking of which, kegger at my place on Friday.
Yes, I suffer from the same problem - but damn if it doesn't get one laid a lot more often than others. And as a bonus, the crazy chicks attracted to assholes are generally much (much) better in the sack. Just make sure they can't find you on social media.
Note to self: Write down everything @Pavlov says and use it later
@Pavlov Posting this may just be a conditioned response.
If you're unsure, and want to avoid stepping on toes, look at the responses of others and gauge your post relative to what someone you know and trust is saying. I have learned some of the necessary social graces--things like asking how other people are doing, and remembering things that are important to them. It helps, but it took a lot of 'I am sorry I didn't ask earlier, but how was your vacation' conversations to become habit.
Social skills CAN be taught. Empathy is something that is taught to toddlers, so you can surely learn it. Clearly, I did not.
@MsELizardBeth I'm not actually sure it CAN be taught [even] to toddlers, it seems more like they either develop it as part of their growth, or they become [very effective] serial killers. I do think it can be/or is learned, but not so much taught...
@PhysAssist there are many curriculums (curricula?) that are specifically for teaching empathy and other social skills to tots. I agree that some people lack the ability to learn from these lessons. (or in the case of sociopaths learn to imitate the motions but not feel the emotions. )
The best tool for you to gauge the tone of the conversation is to look at the responses. If it's getting a sea of excited encouragement; keep your advice or less than excited opinion to yourself. If they didn't ask a question - they don't want you to answer it.
I struggle with this, too. I have learned to treat my opinion or "realistic" view of a situation like I think people should treat religion - keep it to yourself unless asked.
@Thumperchick You mean you DON'T see any need to go around nailing shoes on the feet of native or aboriginal peoples?
I know what you mean, kind of. When people find out that I work with rare books they often ask me to appraise a family heirloom, often a school primer or kids' book from the 20s-50s, which are nearly worthless unless in great condition. They invariably say they don't want to actually sell it, but you can see visions of Antiques Roadshow in their heads and wouldn't mind hearing that Great Granny's dog-chewed spelling book is going to buy their kids a flying car someday. Not so, as often there are multiple copies of said heirloom on Amazon for $0.01 apiece, and they could fill a shelf with the things for a dollar and still have enough left for gum.
I usually say something along the lines of it being a common book without a whole lot of collector value but it must be precious to them because it has a family history and they've kept it all these years. It's a delicate balancing act but I can't outright bullshit them because if they had it insured or bought a fire safe for it or something then I'd feel even worse.
If more people had responded to my various life decisions with the honesty and pragmatism that you did, I'm pretty sure I'd be in a better place right now. Yet, I see where you're coming from, as my honesty and pragmatism has certainly harmed my relationships. I still don't think it's wrong, however.
If you are really serious about improving your empathy, you could try LSD or psilocybin mushrooms. Johns Hopkins has done some big research in this area. http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/16/magic-mushrooms-can-improve-psychological-health-long-term/ (not the best article but I'm too lazy to keep looking).
But it's important to get the dosage right, which is a little tricky if you are buying an illegal drug and don't know exactly what you are getting. So you probably shouldn't do this. It's just something to think about.
From the article:
Critically, however, the participants themselves were not the only ones who saw the benefit from the insights they gained: their friends, family member and colleagues also reported that the psilocybin experience had made the participants calmer, happier and kinder.
“I feel that I relate better in my marriage. There is more empathy — a greater understanding of people and understanding their difficulties and less judgment,” said one participant. “Less judging of myself, too.”
@christinerenee I'm not that serious. Nancy Reagan taught me better.
@JerseyFrank I mean, I'm serious, but I'm not LSD serious.
@JerseyFrank I'm not LSD serious either. I WOULD do it if I could be part of one of the John's Hopkins studies, but I would never do it on my own. Nancy Reagan brainwashed me too.
@JerseyFrank but are you HIV positive?
@JerseyFrank idk.. You are taking to yourself already...
@christinerenee @JerseyFrank (and anyone else interested): Just to clarify, you don't need to be really serious about improving your empathy to try LSD or psilocybin mushrooms. All you need is a good hook up.
Empathy? I don't know how to feel about that....
@BillLehecka Wish I could say I know how you feel, but ...
@BillLehecka is a heart the "former goat" symbol?
@MsELizardBeth Nope, this: https://meh.com/forum/topics/show-meh-the-love--february-video-event
I didn't get the empathy or tribal genes, it causes major problems when everyone is getting all warm and fuzzy over the latest stupidity like TED and stuff.
INTJs unite!
@Headly exactly.
@Headly Unite and do what, exactly? If it's "take over the world" then I'm in. Where do we meet?
@rockblossom on a desert island of course. but since we're INTJs we each need our own island
@Headly For some reason, I'm picturing all the INTJs joining up to form Voltron.
@Headly So, desert archipelago then?
@JerseyFrank Does it have to be a deserted island chain? If we are going to take over the world, then we may as well start with Hawaii. Except maybe for Lanai, because Larry Ellison already owns it and he seems like an INTJ kind of guy. Dibs on Niihau, because I like the shells.
This struck a chord with me because I can empathize with the parents as I begin the college search with my child. I like the responses that @editorkid & @tightwad gave about offering your firsthand experiences without forcing them on someone.
If you were truly trying to be empathetic I would consider what the college search is like for your friend and her daughter. There is an incredible amount of information (and pressure) being thrust at both the parents and the child throughout the process. If you spent four years there one would assume that there must have been some worthwhile attributes to the school. I would be likely to ignore or discount purely negative feedback but I would not only welcome but be grateful for a more balanced yet candid firsthand experience.
The problem with giving an example is that everyone wants to solve your example and not your problem.
@JerseyFrank What some of us are saying is that we don't feel you've got a problem. I said it with humor, others more indirectly and some directly - but yes, many missed the boat as it pulled out of the harbor and just want to fix the example . . . IME, Having low empathy isn't all bad, and it certainly doesn't immediately qualify you as a sociopath. In fact, many of the common shared traits of people with low(er) empathy are quite beneficial / advantageous. In all seriousness however, what any of us type here doesn't matter a flying shit - if YOU feel that YOU have an issue, it is time to make a simple call and talk to a professional about it. Anything that you are perservating about enough to jettison it out into a forum online (and then follow it up with an serious plea for help such as this) is something, again IME, that is need for discussion with someone way above most all of our pay grades. A lot of stuff here gets lost in the signal to noise ratio - if you are truly concerned, pick up the phone. I think you'll find you're more okay than you think you are - you obviously are a very deep feeling person on some level to have it bother you in the first place : )
EDITED @Pavlov Sorry. I understood that there was some signal to be had in these posts and it wasn't all noise. There are more than a handful of good suggestions here. I was just eye-rolling at human nature, myself included.
@Pavlov So I'll bury this in here... I'm asking because I'm going to be the Cubmaster for my son's Cub Scout Pack. I'll be improving my personal skillz with people that are from all walks of life, and not just the ivory tower, mostly INTJ eggheads I deal with at the office.
@JerseyFrank I don't have a problem as much as I have a desire to be better in the same way one might want to be a better guitar player and is looking for how other non-natural musicians improved their music.
@JerseyFrank Run.. ... Cubmaster??? Ugh, we just gave up that role. No, seriously, that is one of the most challenging roles in life -- there are so many people and a variety of people. Try to pick a child who is a good indicator of the room's mood. We have one child who is always the first to be bored, not in a negative way, and we use him as an indicator of whether an activity needs to end or not. I loved Cub Scouts and am sad to see the boys cross over to Boy Scouts. I will not miss the parents!
@JerseyFrank Cool - I get it now - I just wanted to make sure you weren't really struggling with something deeper internally, connotation on the Internet is a motherfucker sometimes. I went through the EXACT same thing when I did this with my son's Pack - in that instance, for me personally, I found it was pretty easy to overcome my fear of trampling some poor Tiger or Bear Cub because I shoot a little too straight sometimes for many people's tastes and sometimes it raises their ire . . . But, I found that 1) the boys are the most forgiving bunch of children you're ever going to have this opportunity with and 2) after the first Pack meeting it just came naturally to really play things a bit "over the top" just to make sure I was communicating so each boy could get the most out of the meeting. With children, it just comes easier IME, just turn on the charm a bit more and play to your audience and things will be cool. If you slip up, you'll know it, and the boy's face will show it - that happened to me, and I thought I had just decimated a little Tiger Cub. It isn't a big deal, just apologize, reinforce the positive, explain why you might have had the reaction you did and tell them sometimes in your hope to make them a better Scout sometimes things don't come out "right" all the time but let them know you want the best for them. The boys will love you and the parents will appreciate you . . . The hardest thing for me was the monthly parent meetings when the douche dad's come out and want to criticize, in which case just look them in the eye and tell them to volunteer for the job and it isn't nearly as easy as they think and they'll back off. Overall, if you're even ASKING these questions in this context, IMO you're going to be just fine (as in awesome). As for the overall grand picture of how to improve the empathy quotient, I personally feel the fact that you are even cognizant about it is enough to take you in the right direction a lot faster than you may think or believe. You're fine man, and you'll do great!
@mikibell Ditto - love the boys, don't miss the parents. Really irks the shit out me when they want to criticize and then sit back and do NOTHING while those that truly want to be engaged are doing their best. Similar to youth sports douche-bag parents, but magnified.
@jerseyfrank I know you didn't ask for advice solely about Cub Scouts, but can I just say, take the training -- in person. It is so much fun and you learn from other people's experiences. Kinda like the forums :)
@Pavlov @mikibell Look, I just ran an entire Pinewood Derby on short notice (as in 15 minutes notice), and got nothing but compliments of how much more engaged and excited the boys were this year with the race tournament format I chose. (Stearns method, which is a modified round robin where you optimize for racing every car down every lane, and against different opponents). I'm told if you can pull that off, you can do anything.
@mikibell With respect to using certain people as indicators of a room's "temperature", that is excellent unsolicited (but appreciated) advice that I did not take as anything but constructive.
@JerseyFrank They're right. Derby is a bitch. Our system is completely automated / computerized. Thankfully we have a decent budget.
@JerseyFrank Totally meant as constructive, no criticism at all.. a "been there, done that, have the t-shirt to prove it" comment :)
@mikibell and the scars!
@Pavlov Ours is too, but apparently no one learned the software since it was bought in 2003.
tl;dr
@phatmass Bite me.