The Body Shop (Car Repair Help)
6
This is the story of 2001 Subaru Outback named Peashooter (yes, PvsZ, my son’s idea). Peashooter is the vehicle that pulls my trailer to the dump and Lowe’s. She also carries a canoe and kayak, just not very far from home. She is a 217,000 mile work in progress. And even though she had a Virginia inspection sticker, she cost me more to pass the one-time Maryland inspection than what she cost me.
She is dependable and starts every time, but she is not pretty up close. I am told the previous owners dog is afraid of fireworks and took out his unhappiness on the interior of the car. But, at the moment I am more concerned with the body and engine. With all this said, I am going to occasionally stop in and post problems looking for solutions. So if your handy with auto repair, please chime in.
- 23 comments, 114 replies
- Comment
My first problem is the most pressing. The roof has a hole in it! The previous owner attempted to remedy this by using tar and duct tape
I have sanded the area and cut out some of the bad metal to see what I am working with. Removing the roof rails requires removing the headliner - which involves dismantling most of the interior…not happening.
My thoughts here is to place a piece of Bondo patch (wire mesh) into the hole. I will bondo a portion of it first to fit up against the rail. Then bondo the hole on each side.
Any other thoughts, ideas, tips, or tricks? I am a noob here. The repairs just have to work, not be pretty. She is what she is.
(I will discuss sealing the roof rails later)
@mfladd
Little J-B Weld putty on that should do.
@mfladd
Henry Blueskin waterproof membrane or metal roof/flashing repair or Gaffer Power sealing tape
/image not duct tape
@mfladd Dismantling the interior probably isn’t as bad as it seems. It looks like it would be difficult to set your patch to the underside of your roof without access to the underside of your roof. Removing the headliner seems daunting, but it is just a simple puzzle. Also, it would allow you to see if you have any other rust holes forming.
/image 2001 outback headliner removal
@mfladd I lost my post (stupid phone) so here’s a brief version:
Actual fix would be to remove the headliner, cut yourself out a hole of known shape to get rid of the rust and any questionable metal. Cut a sheet metal patch out that fits it like a puzzle piece. Weld, grind, sand, Bondo, sand, primer, sand, paint.
Ugly fixes would include aluminized tape, make a fiberglass patch, patch across the hole with sheet metal with strong epoxy to attach it. You’re probably best off removing the headliner anyway as @eonfifty says for access.
Using Bondo to fill anything but the slightest little areas usually yields undesirable results.
@djslack forgive my ignorance, please, but I thought bondo could repair like an entire quarter panel worth of damage. Is it the depth or width (or both) that would yield the undesirable results?
@mfladd Bondo is NOT solid and permeable.
At the very least, cut a larger piece of galvanized sheet metal and epoxy it over the hole. You can consider bondo afterwards to level it out around the sides.
@mikibell Bondo, which is a trademarked brand of body filler, is fine for smoothing out minor imperfections in the body. It is not used to “repair” anything more than 1/16".
@eonfifty The problem also lies in just how may of the OLD plastic clips will snap from age even with the appropriate trim tools.
@mikibell as @narfcake said, it’s a depth thing. Its primary use is to level out imperfections that result from body work, but it’s more like a smoothing putty than a structural building material. Done properly, you wind up sanding off the majority of body filler you apply to a repair.
We didn’t know this as teenagers when my friend sideswiped a fire hydrant with the quarter panel of his Dodge Daytona. We proceeded to fill the sizeable dent and hole with a shitload of Bondo, thinking we could make it like it never happened. When the repair finally dried out, it had assumed the texture and appearance of a brain. It was pretty terrible.
@djslack @mikibell @narfcake /brains
@mfladd
/image duct tape
@djslack @narfcake I kinda figured that was going to be the answer, akin to fixing a large hole in the wall with spackle! Thank you!
P.S. lurking because I have a 2002 legacy that cost me nothing to acquire!!
@djslack @narfcake @mikibell Time to get to work on him then!
@mfladd Shingles?
@mfladd The best suggestion I can make is to check out David Tracy over on Jalopnik. He’s the patron saint of hopeless rustbuckets, especially Jeeps.
@mfladd Auto parts stores sell fiberglass body patch kits for about $15 You mix up some resin, soak a piece of fiberglass cloth in it, and apply it to the hole; it dries hard in a few minutes and would be completely sealed and waterproof.
@eonfifty nope nope nope on the duct tape. When that gets hot it slides. Eventually the gray layer dries out and falls off.
Watch some Arthur Tussik for body work inspiration.
/youtube Arthur Tussik Subaru
On another note - my headlights were yellow and heavily, heavily oxidized. You couldn’t even see the lights inside. I looked at a repair kit weighing between price, reviews and steps. I settled on this kit - Meguiar’s G2980 Heavy Duty Headlight Restoration Kit - which only took 5 quick steps. I have to admit it did a great job and I have plenty of the liquids left for future touch ups. Whole process took me 30 min. The difference was night and day. It was worth $21.
(photo above has lights completed)
@mfladd For future reference, I use Turtle Wax Polishing Compound with a microfiber buffing wheel, but a simple microfiber cloth works fine too but requires a bit more elbow grease. About $2 at Walmart. For heavier oxidation I use Rubbing Compound followed by a quick polishing buff. About $3 at Walmart.
@mfladd @ruouttaurmind which is the best place to start? My headlights are awfully ( I wanna say dim, but I don’t want to open that can o worms)… Hazy! I really dislike driving this car at night because of them and the radiant scratches in the windshield. I have no idea what my dad does to create the windshield scratches but his 2009 has the same problem. If I can fix the headlights, it might not be such an issue!
@mikibell If it’s really bad, you’re going to need both compounds anyway, so I would start with the polishing compound and work on a small area to see if it’s cutting well enough. If it’s just not cutting the oxidation well, get the rubbing formula. It’s cut through the heaviest I’ve encountered. Then give it a luster with the polishing paste.
Forewarned: if you use a power tool, use a slow speed and DO NOT apply much pressure. This can cause scorching to the lenses which is very difficult to cut through, if at all.
BTW, the same compounds and process will work on a window as well, but you’re gonna need a buffer (or buffing attachment for a power drill) it would take many hours by hand.
@ruouttaurmind Mine were sooooo bad. Could have gone the cheaper route, but went all in one route. Drill attachment, 2 sanding pads, buffer, polisher and lens coating. I have enough left over to do it many times over
@ruouttaurmind sweet… thank you!
@mfladd Does discoloration happen just on the outside of headlights? I can’t tell with mine. They are sealed though.
Just slap some Flex Seal™ Tape on there and then coat it with some Flex Seal™ Liquid. Afterwards, spray it with some Flex Seal™ Liquid Rubber Coating Sealant. I’m sure it’ll be fine.
/youtube cinnamontoastken flex seal
@RiotDemon I like how you think. I already have some flex seal fixes on the car planned in the future!
I will let you know when they begin.
I’ve never used it but acquaintences said that 3M Panel Bonding adhesive worked well for them. In your case since you don’t want to remove the headliner, welding isn’t really a good option unless you want a car-be-cue.
Assuming you can cut out all the corrosion, can you make a patch panel a little larger in all dimensions and then flange the edges, match the curves, use the panel adhesive to glue it in place. It’d be easier with those spot welded pins (maybe you can use flat-head nails or equivalent panel bonded to the patch) to use to hold it while the adhesive cures; not sure the best way to do that.
As others have said, dropping the headliner and welding in a patch would yield the best results. If I were patching a hole and i had zero interest in making it look good, I’d pop rivet a patch onto it and 2 stage epoxy all around it to stop leaking, then paint it.
My issue with using any of the techniques that include body filler (mesh backing and filler) of any kind is the location. It would likely break down and leak. Manufacturer certified shops will generally only allow 2 mm of filler over sheet metal for repairs. No mesh allowed. I-car standard is nothing more than 1/8 inch over solid sheet metal. Basically that’s because anything more than that and it will crack.
I do kind of like the flex tape idea. I wonder how long that would hold.
@evilstan60 @mfladd This is what I would do as well, if I wasn’t going to weld something in. Rivets are cheap, and it’s on the roof so no one should notice the protrusion. Galvenized sheet metal is cheap (or free if you borrow a road sign or something) and won’t rust any time soon. All you need to install a piece is a dremel style tool with cutoff wheels to cut your shape and a drill with a 1/8" bit for the rivets, plus the rivet gun. If you can bend it to mate with the roof rair and the roof from each side you will gain rigidity as well. Use some flexible sealer under it and it will seal water incursion from happening. Then if you want to make the roof look better go with the plasti-dip or truck bed coating to the whole panel.
What about the stuff people paint on RV roofs to stop the leaks? Put something down to fill the hole and then when that dries cover it with that stuff?
@Kidsandliz Elastomeric coating, aka roof paint or pool paint.
@mfladd IMHO, I’d go one step further and use a truck bed liner on the entire roof. Thicker, tougher, more impervious to the environment, and it’s texture hides surface issues.
https://m.lowes.com/pd/HERCULINER-Bed-Liner-Black-Kit/4222493
@mfladd @narfcake just PlastiDip™ the whole car!
/image PlastiDip car
@mfladd @RiotDemon Dip is soft, though. Being that this is a roof rack that could see some use, something more durable would be better IMHO.
@narfcake @RiotDemon That’s badass!
@Kidsandliz @narfcake I am definitely keeping in mind the truck bed paint.
@mfladd @narfcake Bonus: bed liner is meant to be applied over paint so you don’t have to strip the rest of the roof. You can also get it in gray. Bed liner it down to the body line and keep the two tone look, while adding a Mad Max aesthetic. I like this idea.
@narfcake Based on the lines of the roof, what would be the footprint of the bedliner. Plus, will it go over the stainless steel that is now most of the roof rails? I will get a pic for you.
@djslack @narfcake I may do black (if I do it), because the rims look like shit and thought I would do those in black.
@mfladd @narfcake honestly, my answers have been pretty sarcastic. I talk to people all day long about fixing stuff, telling them the correct way, and then they just look at me and say they are gonna go buy some Flex Seal™. Suit yourself buddy.
It has its uses, but probably not the best thing in this situation.
PlastiDip™ is pretty cool as a coating when everything is done. It peels off though, so I’m not sure how long it lasts.
@narfcake @RiotDemon I will be using it
I was thinking that Peashooter was an awesome name for a golden retriever
I knew I posted here for a reason. Because if I hadn’t I would have used bondo on the roof which would have been a bad idea (so much water). I have listened to all of you and the final verdict was… JB Weld!
Here is the process I went thru. There was a learning curve with this stuff, but I learned it fast.
cc: @medz
Started with the mesh underneath. Tried to stick it place first with some Weld (mixed results. By the way, the adhesive bondo patches - IT DOESN’T ADHERE TO ANYTHING!)
The final result before sanding. It ain’t pretty, but we will see after sanding and touching up (pic makes it looks worse). This shit is like a rock!
Tips: Weld starts out quite thin. Which is great to add to small holes. But mesh, it will strain thru, so you have to wait a couple minutes until it will sit on top of it.
I had a small rust area on the hood (2" x 2") which was not deep at all. Here is where I put my bondo based on the advice here. @narfacke, am I doing this right now?
@mfladd cool. Looks great! We used jb weld to fix an aluminum john boat that had bullet holes in it. Held up good against water.
@mfladd The JB weld is fine. The body filler over the rust – not so much if the rust wasn’t treated before hand. It’s not going to last as the iron oxide continues to oxidize.
@narfcake I sanded it down to bare metal.
That right, isn’t it?
@mfladd Not the most ideal, but it’s done already, so just sand it level then primer.
@narfcake What then should I have done?
@mfladd Before filling, it’s helpful to treat the spot with rust converting primer, which will take care of any remaining rust.
@narfcake Well now you tell me!
@mfladd Blame the goat!
@narfcake Question: I like the idea of the Truck bedliner paint. It would seal the the small roof rail bars, which I need to do. But…if I were to have more future roof rust issues that I don’t see now - I am thinking that it would make fixing it a nightmare. Thoughts? All of this is probably over thinking since if I can get 5 years out of this vehicle I would be happy. You true fixers are getting into my head!
@mfladd If you don’t see it, it’s not there, right?
Bed liner will make it tougher to repair, as it has to be removed first. Its ability to encapsulate the surface is going to be that drawback.
@narfcake I like how you think!
@mfladd I had (died at 25 and 3 mo) old grand caravan of the era of peeling pain and spent half its life in the
saltsnow belt. How I dealt with the roof and hood (after any actual bubbling rust was fixed) was annually sand off all superficial rust, cover the windows, etc. with newspaper and spray paint rustoleum on it. In my case the van paint was so faded that their gray just about matched the light blue and from a distance you couldn’t tell. Sure it wasn’t a “pretty” solution but it was a cheap one and once I had all the existing rust repaired I didn’t get any more doing this.Another thing that works for some damage (not weight bearing) if you don’t care about looks is clear bathtub waterproof caulking. When this thing was about 17 or 18 a drunk or enraged or both student went through the faculty parking lot finals week and sliced holes in the sides of vehicles. I patched the cut on mine with this. When that van went to the junk yard in the sky there was no rust at all where I had mended that.
Kid called that thing the ghetto van and swore she wouldn’t learn to drive if she had to drive that. She lived to eat her words and early one Sunday morning in the shopping center parking lot when first learning to back up she backed the thing into a light pole. I told her she was lucky she was driving the ghetto van as a small dent in the fender wasn’t going to cost her money (I wouldn’t have charged her though since she was just learning to drive but she didn’t know that). After that I didn’t hear one word about how I was so mean to make her drive the ghetto van (we only had one car so she had no choice).
If the goal is just to keep the thing running then some preventative on the paint (eg decent wax, washing salt off it every time the outside temp is above freezing, doing things like what I did) will help the body survive as long as you can nurse the engine along (mine only died due to an expensive engine bearing thing croaked and I decided it wasn’t worth putting a new engine in something we were having to peruse junk yards for some parts for). Of course it won’t look pretty but then again it is more expensive to do “pretty”.
Next, there was rusting by the antenna. When I started removing a screw and heard rust turning, I knew there was a problem. Luckily one of the screws is intact. The problem is working around the antenna, because it does not disconnect at the boot - you have to dismantle lots of shit. Not happening - I will make it work. The gasket for the boot was fine. The boot itself has cracks. Hey previous owner - just put something on it, asshole!
After sanding and metal cutting I added JB Weld here too
@mfladd Good thinking. If it doesn’t crack from attempted flexing, JB weld can be some very strong stuff.
You can also get this stuff called “rust converter”. It’s a spray that will convert rust to a much more stable black iron oxide, which should stop it from spreading further.
@djslack Thanks for the info (do you know a brand name?). Also, I was thinking the same with Weld and flexing. The roof definitely flexes with the weight of the canoe and such. I was worried about other products cracking more easily. Plus, water is not going thru this stuff.
May I also add - A cordless dremel is one of the best friends you will ever have!
(3).jpg)
@mfladd just noticed the request for a brand. A lot of brands sell this product - duplicolor rust fix, Rust-Oleum rust reformer, vht rust converter are all options that may be easy to find at big box or auto parts stores. The important thing you want to look for is a statement to the effect that it converts rusting metal into a non-rusting surface. It’s basically the application of some chemical that bonds to the rust in a way that keeps it from oxidizing more and spreading.
@mfladd Dremels are great but I wasn’t pleased with the battery life when using it for pumpkin carving on a foam pumpkin. Apparently I have more patience than the Dremel had battery life. Returned it and got a plug in model.
@RiotDemon Damn. I was using it for some serious grinding and cutting and found the battery life great. Do you have the one above?
@djslack TY.
@mfladd I don’t remember. This was a while back. I was using it for hours though.
Keep in mind the rust conversion stuff needs to be top coated/painted over or else the rust will come back.
@walarney Yup, I will prime and then I have a color match paint/top coat set coming from ebay.
I’ve read through this with interest. When I’m not doing HVAC repairs or laying waste to the zombie hordes in PvZ, my primary hobby is building hot rods and restoring classic cars.
What you’re up to is something I have a great deal of experience with. Except most of the projects I fuss with are 50 to 100 years old. In my experience, if the stuff you can see is oxidizing away to this degree, what’s going on in those unseen areas? Inside and behind body panels, chassis, suspension components, floorboards and so on. It’s unlikely you would have been granted an inspection certificate if the car was unsafe, but I’m curious if you’ve taken a really close look at the undercarriage? Particularly points where the suspension bits connect to the chassis?
A few years ago I tripped into a bargain on a ‘74 Stingray. When disassembling the front suspension for a rebuild I found major rusting inside the frame rails and A-frame mounting points. It was a miracle I was able to drive the car 50 miles home without the front wheels falling off.
@ruouttaurmind You are probably right. But she is not a restore, just a patch doll for limited uses. I basically had to replace the front end with my MD inspection. You can leak oil everywhere on the road in MD, just don’t have a front end that needs work. Because MD is a one-time inspection, they do look at almost everything. Wheels wells definitely need some attention. Also, one really bad area inside lower rear door frame/well. Wait till you see my crazy ass fix for that. You will just shake your head
This is a bargain basement meets “need it easy” restore.
And since you are knowledgeable about such things, keep checking back for new questions/repairs.
You see the dog in the first pic with the befuddled look - that’s me!
@mfladd I will stay tuned to appreciate your progress!
Remember one bit of advice an old timer shared with me when I started doing this kind of stuff. When referring to body and paint work (but just as applicable to any repair): “The easiest solution is usually the most expensive.” What he was getting at is easy things seldom work out in the long run. Then you have to spend more time and effort and money doing it all over again. And often undoing a bad prior repair doubles the effort required to do what should have been done in the first place.
If you’l be facing any additional hole repairs, consider an inexpensive Harbor Freight 120vac MIG welder. Sometimes on sale for as little as $60, it’s easy to learn to use, and will do a satisfactory job for sheet metal repairs. Smaller holes can be patched without the need for adding material to the holes just by building up the area with the welder. Patching metal with metal is always your best bet.
Also, keep an eye out for sheet metal in less obvious opportunities. I have scavenged sheet from old, dead computers for several projects. Even without a welder, a good straight piece of sheet is invaluable for many projects.
@ruouttaurmind Thanks.
My son should have considered Stuffy from GW2 for the car’s name!
Very appropriate!
@mfladd Heh.
@ruouttaurmind p.s. I am hoping to horrify you with some of my upcoming fixes! Prepare to shudder.
@mfladd
@ruouttaurmind Ha, if a product has a cheesy infomercial I will find I use for it here
It shall be a living, driving experiment!
@mfladd @ruouttaurmind There is little that can top how I took care of a surface rusting van roof (gray primer rust stopper spray paint cans - car was light blue) or the spot a disgruntled student slammed a hole through the sheet metal (silicone seal and 7 years when the van croaked still no rust there). Good reasons why my daughter named the thing the ghetto van. Of course I owned it until it was 25 yo and 3 mo. and it had a hard life. Strictly functional fixes. Cut really long slits in the drooping headlines and stuck it back up with glue. Looked crappy but stayed up.
The “looked crappy” was why they laughed so hard they couldn’t talk when I went to get the ignition kill fixed. They wanted to know who would steal that piece junk. Answer: Daughter with no driver’s license yet. Yup she even told on herself. Her: “mom the ghetto van is broken”. Me: “And how would you know that?”. Her: slaps hand over her open mouth.
@mfladd Just remember with “easy restore” methods you might, if you get in a wreck, end up with just a pile of rust dust left on the road (and more injuries than you might otherwise have since the metal is meant to collapse to protect you). I had an 83 Toyota tercel wagon that failed PA inspection, my cousin gave it to me (no inspection where I lived) and the bottom of the doors were flapping due to rust. No real way to save that that wouldn’t cost serious money. Now the optional 4 wheel drive in the unplowed snow was fantastic and the engine was perfect. That thing needed a body transplant.
Take off the luggage rack Prime the bare metal put on a 4" etrnabond patch then cover that with silver HVAC tape. That fix will hold up forever. Start at the back and put down silver tape with a 1/4 inch overlap. You can put the luggage rack back on.
Most I ever got was 298000 from a subaru and I drove to pull a part full of head gasket seal.
Note: Don’t use flex seal if you want something to look good. I used it on my antenna boot (spray) thinking it would work like plasti-dip or paint. Nope - it is fugly. I would scrape it off but I already roughed up the boot for better adhesion. I should just have used black sealant to fill in the cracks. Lesson learned. It could have been worse.
@mfladd if flex seal looks like it does in the top left of the picture, then you’re not going to be a fan of bed liner coating your roof.
@djslack Oh, I am fine with that texture for a roof. Just not on something that should look smooth. I scraped it all off. I couldn’t take it.
Weird. I replied to you yesterday, but it seems to have disappeared.
@mfladd if you wanted it to look like PlastiDip, why didn’t you use PlastiDip?
/giphy question
@RiotDemon I wanted a spray because I can’t remove the piece from the vehicle. I thought the flex seal would look different. But I may try painting with plastidip. We shall see. All these projects make my head spin
Not counting all the other shit I have to make - like a canoe/kayak stand. I needz mo mony!
@mfladd
/image PlastiDip spray
@RiotDemon crap
@mfladd @RiotDemon Use marinetex and put a piece of bug screen over the hole and epoxy the luggage rack. Put down a thin layer of marine tex then press in the screen then another layer of marinetex over the screen and around the luggage rack component to seal it. Might accomplish the same thing with 3m 5200. Just make sure the surface is really clean and roughed up bit.
@mfladd @RiotDemon If it comes out some what ugly, you can sand either adhesive smooth.
@cranky1950 I was more poking fun at @mfladd for wanting something to look like PlastiDip, but not researching and finding out that the product he should of used, exists.
How did you think the PlastiDip car looked so smooth, mfladd??
@mfladd @RiotDemon Spraying PlastiDip on wheels is kind of a thing right now. Specially formulated for automotive uses, it’s available in various colors.
@mfladd @RiotDemon @ruouttaurmind
My brother in MI recently repainted his whole car (1990 Mazda Miata) in British Racing Green PlastiDip. Not bad looking for a high-mileage everyday driver whose original finish had failed (tho mostly rust-free). Saved hundreds of $$ compared to even the cheapest paint job.
/youtube Plasti Dip Your Car
@compunaut @RiotDemon @ruouttaurmind
SweeeeT!
@compunaut @mfladd He kept talking about “dip” and I couldn’t help but to think about Roger Rabbit and the deadly dip.
@mfladd most of the RV roof coating stuff is usually intended to cover aluminum you might want to research if it makes any difference what kind of metal it coats and how it reacts to rust since aluminum doesn’t rust.
@mfladd
As in where you are storing it or for the roof rack? If for the roof rack for a canoe L shaped brackets work fine, just expoxy on padding (closed cell foam used for packbacking works fine). Kayaks it depend on whether you are carrying them stern down or not. If in a garage just get big hooks to attach to overhead support beams and fashion slings (you can spring for some that actually raise and lower but I am telling you the cheap way) out of rock climbing webbing (some climbers will give away “expired” webbing and climbing rope since it loses strength over time but you aren’t worried about dynamic falls, just static weight). Run it through carabiners (rock climbing ones not the cheapo ones due to weight limits) so you can raise and lower the boat by pulling on or letting out both sides (takes two people though for the canoe- one for the bow and one for the stern unless you are good at controlling 90 pounds or use pulleys; one person with a kayak is much easier since they are much lighter).
PS putting bowline in the webbing or rope then clipping it to a thwart on the canoe (one at each end) will prevent a catastrophe if someone doesn’t lower or raise the boat on the level.
@mfladd PS if you are just building a T looking stand =|= type of thing, make sure there is a place to tie (or lock depending on your community) the boat to the stand and that the bars the boats are resting on slant in towards the center pole (sort of like this: |/ if this is outside as it will be harder for the wind to blow it off).
For about a month it’ll be ok but then the sun’ll tear it up.
3m 5200 is rated for permanent above the waterline boat repairs. Supposedly UV stabilized Urethane. You can get it in tube at home despot for about 6 bucks.
@cranky1950 Plastidip UV should work if you want to try that. The other kind they say will last about 3 years, In TexasI doubt that. Sun there ate my handicap placard in one month.
@cranky1950 5200 is a great adhesive but not a great filler.
So… every time I try to get rid of my family and send them away with Scouts this summer, something catastrophic happens to the method of transportation. In July, the bus to w. VA broke down at noon on the way to pick up people … mad dash to find replacement vehicles for the long drive in a short period of time.
Today, the suburban that was the main method of transportation lost a brake line - 4wd abs brakes.
So honey and I took the line apart, bought new lines, etc. When he went to install them, he started cursing about double flare or flange (I forget which it was). Every time I mention the proper phrase, car people go ohhhhhh that isn’t good. There wasn’t time to get a full explanation of why this is a problem.
Here is what I THINK is a problem, the end that connected to the vault was larger than the end that connected to the actual brake mechanism. Like in plumbing when you have a 3 inch line going down to a 2 inch line, you need something to make that transition? So with pressurized brake lines, this is not something to play with and probably needs a special tool? Am I close?
Yes, it will put my brain at ease to understand… will see him soon, so he will splain then, if I remember to ask.
@mikibell
Pinging @narfcake and @ruouttaurmind.
@mikibell
This, maybe?
http://knowhow.napaonline.com/how-to-make-a-double-flare-brake-line/
/image double flare brake line
@eonfifty @mikibell I have some expertise with double-flare tubing, tho it’s for aircraft not autos.
The photo above is a pretty good illustration. LH example is std flared tube, known the world over and producible with simple hand tools. Middle example is the ‘bulging’ operation performed on a straight tube end in order to produce the RH example (double-flared tube). ‘Bulging’ (or whatever the proper technical term is) usually requires more complicated tooling.
Std flared tube can be susceptible to cracking (depending on the tube material) when applying torque to the nut, since it must yield (and further thin) the already stretched tube end to get a good seal. Notwithstanding the apparent crack in the photo, double-flare is theoretically far less likely to crack cuz the tube end remains full thickness & mostly unadulterated (cracks like to start at the end); there’s somewhere between 1.5x-2x as much material to deform when sealing.
FYI: Cracks allow leaks.
Note: Std mating fittings (unions, elbows, etc.) will fit
either type equally well - it’s a matter of risk & longevity.
TL;DR: Double-flare is higher quality joint but more difficult to produce.
Well, now my Peashooter won’t start. I have replaced the battery - even if it wasn’t that - it’s a good thing anyway.
But something seems to be draining my battery. I found a $10 smart battery charger at goodwill to fix that. So I was thinking alternator.
Battery is good - I had it checked. All lights and dash function. My multimeter shit the bed so I have to go out tomorrow and get a new one. That is what a 20% off coupon at Harbor Freight is for - right?
But what is happening is when I try to start it I hear 1 click and then a hiss. Each and every time. I am starting to think the solenoid is getting the charge to the starter, but that it is the starter that’s bad and will not engage. Any thoughts?
Pinging @narfcake @ruouttaurmind @cranky1950
@mfladd That’s definitely plausible. I’ve BTDT with my truck; solenoid works, motor itself not really.
@narfcake I mean, I need to check fuse, but how often does the fuse or starter relay really fail? I don’t know. And where the hell is the starter relay - that I will have to google. Isn’t it more likely on a 2001 vehicle the starter has failed?
@mfladd Generally there is no fuse to the starter. Too much current needed there.
If you hear a click, it’s probably not the relay. Its existence is so that the full amperage of the solenoid is not going through the ignition switch.
@narfcake Gotcha, but I meant solenoid. I just see by a chart there is a 20A one that says solenoid/ABS. This is for something else? Noob here.
Good to know about the relay.
I’m just trying to figure this out while autozone still has 20% off parts.
@mfladd Perhaps to the ABS pump/solednoid instead.
BTW, see if Advance Auto has any deals too. Likewise, sometimes even with discounts, RockAuto or Amazon can be cheaper.
@mfladd With much respect to @narfcake, I have experienced solenoid failures enough times to not rule that out. If the starter has an external solenoid, it should be an inexpensive troubleshooting step.
@mfladd BTW, the “hiss”… could that be like an electrical short kind of hiss?
Also, have you checked and cleaned the battery terminals, and checked both ends of both cables? Good battery, bad cable can make the lclick but not turnover” bit also. Could be as simple as a loose connection on either battery side or starter side.
@mfladd You’re better off testing fuses for electrical continuity, rather than just eyeballing them. A couple of times I had the fusible element fracture instead of melt. They looked ok, but were open.
It’s rare, but…
@mfladd The hiss seems odd. Does it sounds like pressure escaping, or electrical?
@blaineg It’s an electrical hiss, like something is trying to work.
@ruouttaurmind Nope that was done when I put in the new battery. Also, when battery was an issue the clicking I had was continuous. Not the single click I have now.
@mfladd Starting issues are fairly simple. You have 3 main things at work. #1 the ignition switch has to signal to the starter that something should happen. If you turn the key and nothing does AND the voltage at the battery doesn’t change by more than .1v then the starter isn’t trying to draw anything. Secondly the cable from the battery has to be able to transmit enough juice…often issues are seen here in the form of corrosion etc. If the voltage drops when the key is turned but nothing happens test the voltage at the starter, you should be getting almost the same reading. #3. The solenoid is a big relay…it uses a small signal from the switch to activate an electromagnetic switch to move that amperage from the big battery wire to the starter motor itself. You can usually bypass the solenoid by directly crossing the big terminals…yours however has the solenoid internal and is gear reduction…so it’s possible it’s trying to turn but has an internal problem.
@mfladd The hiss sound may be the starter motor spinning without engaging the flywheel. Have a friend turn the key while you listen under the hood to see if the hiss noise is coming from the starter itself. If so, you likely need a new starter. If you have doubts, most auto stores can test your starter, usually for free, if you take it in.
Generally if it’s the starter, It’s because the armature is shorting on the magnets because the bearings are bad or the commutator is shorted across multiple segments in either case when you turn the key all your electrics should dim or go dark, if not it’s usually the solenoid. What you can do is take a screw driver and put it across the battery connection and the starter connection in back of the solenoid. If it starts it’s the sonenoid, 9if the handle melts its the starter.
Also try starting it in neutral, might be the park switch.
@cranky1950 “if the handle melts”?
Screaming!
@lisaviolet
it doesn’t really melt, the screwdriver kind of welds to the contacts and you have to pull it off.
@cranky1950 screwdriver…ummmmm
@cranky1950 Isn’t there a multimeter test instead of the screwdriver?
@cranky1950 Ok, car will not start in neutral - scratch park switch.
When attempting to start most all of the dash goes dark - so we scratch solenoid? And we are back to the starter? Should I hit it with a hammer?
@mfladd No but you canuse a jumper cable instead of a screw driver. On ford solenoids I’ve used channelocks. Essentially you’re bypassing the solenoid.
@cranky1950 @mfladd Well, not actually bypassing the solenoid, but the starter relay, giving a big kick of power to the solenoid coil.
The solenoid assembly is sort of a big electromagnetic. When it’s energized, it causes a lever to engage a gear inside the starter, which in turn contacts the flywheel/flex plate. When the starter motor spins, this gear drives the flywheel, turning over the engine.
I would say your starter is dead the armature is grounding out to the field.
You can try turning the key to start a bunch of times and sometime that will get the armature past the low point and it will kick over, but you still have a dead starter. It will work for a while until it stops on the low point again.
@cranky1950 That’s what would happen in the recent past! I don’t drive it that often. And now it doesn’t anymore
At least the starter is cheaper than the alternator.
@cranky1950 @blaineg @narfcake @ruouttaurmind
OMG Ok, so thank you to everyone for their input. This is why I post this shit - because everyone here is so helpful.
During all of this I was having some whispers with @ruouttaurmind (btw, username is tooooo long), and he made me start to think about the battery again.
I cleaned all lot of the connections and noticed that while the negative terminal had a connection with a ring terminal that goes to the alternator (I think). But the wire connected to the positive terminal didn’t have a ring connector (goes to the car frame). The wire was just shoved into the clamp with the main wire - that is how it was before I changed the last battery (which was bad, and undersized for the car).
So I decided to take the grounding wire out and attach it under the outside of the clamp.
And when I turned the key, VROOOM, VROOOM!
So thanks, you saved me a bunch of money I don’t have right now
Not sure what was happening, but it worked.
@mfladd POSITIVE terminal should be going to the alternator, negative to the chassis, yes? Cable colors are irrelevant as long as the + side of the battery is going to the alt, starter, etc, and the - side of the battery is going to the chassis/ground.
@ruouttaurmind Sorry, yes. Positive is to the alt., Neg to the frame. I flipped it in my mind while describing it. It was the neg wire that had the ground clamped on top of it. When I separated the ground wire to the side of the clamp, instead of on top of the main wire it worked.
@mfladd Sounds like a bad connection (high resistance) that you fixed when you rearranged things. Bad grounds can cause all sorts of problems.
When you’re dealing with an old car with dubious maintenance, look out for undersized wiring and bad connectors.
As a formerly ASE certified mechanic and auto parts salesman I applaud your efforts to keep the car running AND I am willing to chime in when I remember to check the latest action. I can also answer questions about old Seadoos and even older Wetbike and Surfjets.
@tightwad Thank you so much. I will be sure to add you to a ping. I need to keep her running.
She has seen better days, but is usually reliable for what I need her for. She only has a few duties to do, but they are essential ones
This is the best thread ever. So many ways to fix stuff
!!.. As I tell my kids, friends and former small engine customers, is to look at the simple stuff first, then go from there…
FYI y’all. mfladd hasn’t been active in a long time, so you are talking into the wind right now.
/giphy necromancer
@RiotDemon Opps I so missed this was from 2018. Someone bumped it though… Hope his fixes kept his car going.
BUT Please, I want some more…
@gfreek OK. My Subby.