Televisions

@rtjhnstn I’m not sure any broadcasters in the U.S. are actually broadcasting 4K yet. I think they’re all either 1080i, 720p, or 480i for subchannels.

@Limewater @rtjhnstn Dish Network advertises 4K, but I think it’s only certain channels. Personally I think 4K is a waste of money and bandwidth, unless you’re buying a really large TV.

@PooltoyWolf @rtjhnstn I’m not particularly interested in 4K either.
For OTA broadcasts, though, I don’t think it’s really going to use any more bandwidth than HD. I’m pretty sure each channel still just gets the same 6MHz chunk of spectrum they were allocating back in the early days of television.
I don’t know if they’re giving up subchannels to do 4K or if they’re just changing the encoding. I also don’t know what they are doing to maintain backwards compatibility with existing HDTVs. I should do some reading on that.

@Limewater @rtjhnstn Unless I misunderstand what you mean, there is no backwards compatibility for higher resolutions, e.g. a 1080p native set will be unable to display 4K source material at its native resolution, obviously, unless it is downscaled. People have mixed opinions on downscaling; I prefer to avoid it if possible.

@PooltoyWolf @rtjhnstn What I mean is, the 4K signal probably needs to be transmitted in an encoding that the normal HDTVs can decode. Standard OTA HD TV broadcasts are MPEG-2 encoded, IIRC. I am assuming that the 4K streams will need to stick to MPEG-2 as well.

@Limewater @rtjhnstn I’ve never heard of or seen that issue before. Hmmmmm

@PooltoyWolf @rtjhnstn Yeah, it’s probably not an issue, and I’m sure this was already considered when they were writing the current NTSC standard. I just don’t know what the plan is for forward support.
When color television was developed, they had to be really resourceful to come up with a solution to allow color television to be broadcast on existing channels while still maintaining compatibility with the large user base of black-and-white televisions which were already in use.

@Limewater @rtjhnstn Oh yeah. Also TV history in general is really fascinating. (I’m a fan of obscure technologies, too, like Intextron and SED)

@PooltoyWolf Not to mention it made the list of products most likely to fail due to consumer disinterest when it first came out (eg they won’t watch tv as people have no time to sit and watch). Nope nope nope they go that one wrong. LOL

@Limewater @PooltoyWolf @rtjhnstn Seems rather unlikely that 4k will show up in MPEG-2- almost certainly H264 or H265. Way too much wasted space and bandwidth, especially since ATSC 3.0 specifies 4k, and it’ll be showing up in a couple of years: https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/atsc-3-0-ota-broadcast-standard-4k-dolby-atmos/3/

@dashcloud @PooltoyWolf @rtjhnstn I don’t know. Maybe. For OTA HDTV, bitrate and bandwidth are both fixed. Be careful using the term “bandwidth” when discussing RF signals. For a television channel, the bandwidth is 6 MHz regardless of encoding.

@Limewater I do have two converter boxes still. I hadn’t thought about the connectors. I might have to make that the main selector and then think about size and price.

@cf1 @Limewater Most new TVs these days have a critical lack of input connectors. It’s usually almost all HDMI with one coax (F) connector, and if you’re lucky a single shared composite/component input.

@mike808 I my VCR.

@mike808

Get a TiVo Roamio OTA (if you can find one) or a Bolt OTA with the “all-in” guide service. By itself, the all-in has about 2yr payback. Replacing cable, you get a 3 month payback.

What costs do you expect a DVR to offset to have a payback?

@Limewater The guide service. The people that track what shows are scheduled, the episode details, new or repeat, cast, reviews, etc. and package that up do not do this for free. There is always a monthly fee with DVRs to pay for that and update your DVR app with that info for when you setup a recording and when you play back a show.

That’s the break-even point where the one-time “all-in” cost starts saving you money over the monthly guide service fees. Ask anyone that owns a Tivo, and they have likely been using it for years, making the all-in a good choice.

No recurring charges is where you want to be. I don’t think any other DVR app/device offers that option. All the others have monthly recurring guide fees. Yes, you can find free guide services and DIY, but those don’t hook into any of these DVR products. TiVo is still the best-of-breed OTA DVR turnkey setup, and they’ve integrated streaming pretty good into the overall user experience.

@mike808 Ah, now I understand. Thanks!

@Barney @mike808 I have three VCRs at the moment.

@cf1 @mike808 Me, too! I’m only using one right now. The other two are new in the box and they are all VCR/DVD combos.

@Barney @mike808 I’m so jealous you have new ones. I just got one handed-me-down a few months ago but there is nothing like new, fresh-out-of-the-box.

@cf1 @mike808 With that new car smell.

@Barney @cf1 I have a cheap Bluray player - never used the “smart apps” part of it - I use the Tivo for that. I ripped all of my DVDs and even Blurays to images that I playback through my Plex (local network only) or from the PC (using software that treats the encrypted image file as a virtual physical disk) with built-in DVD/Bluray player software.

My reciever connects the TV to the TiVo and the PC - I don’t use any of its “smart apps” either. The Bluray, the TV, and the receiver are all blocked from connecting to the internet. We access Pandora and internet radio via a TiVo app or the PC.

The TiVo gets OTA from an antenna split with the HD Homerun Quattro tuners. Recordings play back through Plex (after commercial removal and conversion to H.265 MKV format files with guide/metadata included in the file). The TiVo is used to record stuff we will watch later (same week) and the HDHR DVR is used to record binge/series/specials (e.g. America’s Test Kitchen, SGU) or the Stanley Cup/World Series when the Blues/Cardinals are in it, or some movie that isn’t on any of the streaming services, but is on OTA.

@mike808 There’s nothing wrong with continuing to use a VCR to make recordings, assuming you’re okay with the picture and audio quality, and the TV has an input that supports your VCR (usually composite RCA jacks). Also Rovio owns TiVo?? Rovio is the developer of the Angry Birds smartphone app game…

@Barney @cf1 @mike808 The only other issue with running VCRs these days is drive belts going bad. They can be replaced if you are tech-savvy. 90% of broken VCRs I come across just needed belts.

@Limewater @mike808 I’m using Schedules Direct for my home-brew NextPVR setup. Seems to work pretty good so far. $25/year.
Until earlier this year, I used Snapstream BeyondTV, which included the guide service with the $99 initial software purchase. It worked great for 14 years of daily use, but my original hardware started to fail and, with no new consumer-level SW development/updates for the last 8-9 years, there wasn’t support for newer available HW. To their credit, even though they got out of the consumer DVR SW business a while back, they are still supplying the guide data to existing customers.

@f00l They are old school, but I like them and it’s not hurting me to like them, so why should I change?

@Barney

No reason. If someone is comfortable with that, it’s cool. They work, after all.
And they can be useful to have around for legacy reasons as well.

I kinda like them.

@blaineg I was just thinking that about my kindle the other day – Now with extra-glare!

@cf1 That’s another reason I like the e-ink Kindles, the VERY matte screens.

@tohar1 It may not even be possible these days, but I deliberately bought a “dumb” TV a few years ago. TV’s have a lousy history of getting feature and security updates from their manufacturers, and it’s cheaper to replace a Roku/Fire/whatever box than a whole TV when the smarts become obsolete.

@blaineg Correct! That’s why I deliberately sought out the New/Old Stock TV that I bought for my Dad. No bells or whistles. Not a smart TV. My Dad doesn’t have internet where he lives (out in the MN sticks) so all the gadgets would do him no good, let alone set him up to be frustrated and/or confused.

@tohar1 Minor crit: there is no ‘780p’ resolution. You must be referring to 720p!

@PooltoyWolf Sorry! You’re correct!

@tohar1 No problem C:

@mike808 Fuck the environment, I want a TV to watch my stories on.

@carl669

All strapped in, aren’t you, @therealjrn

@mike808 No idea if it will turn out to be anything, but next Tuesday:

https://thewirecutter.com/blog/wirecutter-deal-day/

All strapped in, aren’t you

If that’s the way you poop @mike808, yer gonna shat yer drawers.

@PooltoyWolf The down-side to owning an older set that you can run into is incompatibility with newer Blu-Ray players. Mine cheap player won’t display on my Sony Wega Trinitron HDCRT.

@Limewater That’s an odd issue to run into, though it stands to reason that a cheaper Blu-Ray Disc player wouldn’t offer downscaling, which is probably why your Trinitron can’t display the 4K signal from your disc player. (I do find it odd that all Blu-Ray Disc players don’t at least downscale to 1080p/1080i, as that is still very much an industry standard resolution!)

@PooltoyWolf It actually wouldn’t even display the menus or a DVD I tried to play. I think it’s more an issue of the TV only supporting up to, I think, 1.2 or something. The later versions are supposed to be backwards compatible, but that doesn’t mean every implementation is actually compliant.

@Limewater It’s very likely that everything your player outputs is at 4K, and the TV simply can’t decipher the higher resolution signal. (Also annoying are devices that don’t either automatically change resolution according to cable type used, or at least default to the lowest resolution, so you can see to change the setting…the original Nintendo Wii comes to mind.)

@PooltoyWolf That was actually my initial thought, too. When it didn’t work initially, I hooked it up to my newer television and set it to output 720p, which my old television supports. I may have even set it down to 480p. I don’t remember. I couldn’t get anything. Then I ran out of time to mess with it and haven’t thought about it since, until today.

@unksol that’s what i thought early on. either that first person is a troll to get conversation going or that person really records to a vcr and likes to see smeared images on a decent tv. if the person really does this vcr’ing the magnetic coating on the vcr tapes has to be pretty shitty by now and the resolution of a vcr is el crappo. oh well, not really worth the effort here most days…

@bayportbob my dad held onto a couple for a long time and still has tons of old shows on VHS and needs a VCR to watch. But not record OTA. He at least upgraded to DVD recorders years ago. And there are much better options for OTA recording now.

@bayportbob @unksol Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, it’s personal preference? Yes, the picture quality will be quite dated, but some just prefer the way a VCR operates, and if they’re not concerned about the image quality and don’t want to go out of their way to set up and pay for a DVR system, that’s totally fine!

I enjoy helping people interface older and newer equipment anyway.

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf obviously. Why else would they be doing such a thing. But realistically it’s time to consider updating. I’ve taken apart and repaired my dad’s VCRs when I was a kid. They were a pain then. They don’t last forever and they are getting rare. And If you are talking about one with a new tv you need to be worried about inputs.

@bayportbob @unksol All valid concerns, yes. However, it’s still possible to like doing something a certain way. Though it’s likely not the case here, I like working with older tech just because it’s fun!

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf no one. And I mean no one. Prefers setting a VCR to record. There are DVD recorders that are just as bad if someone really enjoys that experience and wants better media. DVRs are cheap now and don’t require subscriptions

@bayportbob @unksol I guess I don’t exist, then

Seriously though, if someone prefers to do something differently than you, there’s no need to ridicule them for it.

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf I didn’t say like VHS or VCRs I said the act of learning and programming them to record. No one likes that. I’m pretty sure I programmed everyone I knews VCR grandma aunt’s neighbors dad’s all the time. He had like 3. If you really like the ritual of making sure the time is right then programming a little to each side so you don’t get cut off. But you’re screwed if you want to record something right after on a different
Channel. And not being able to skip commercials. And all the other annoying crap. I don’t care. You like what you like. Ive dealt with it and there is a better way. But to each his own

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf @unksol My TiVo is very easy to record from. You just click on the shows in the onscreen guide. Recording just a particular channel at a certain time (not using the guide) is as bad as the olden days tho.

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf @therealjrn well we didn’t really have syched clocks in the 90s which I suppose was part of the issue too. You might be off enough to cause problems. Its the worst when you missed the end

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf @unksol I always added a couple of minutes on either end for safety…unless of course I had it set to immediately record a show on a different channel.

Bah!

Kids these days, they don’t know the meaning of having to work for your shows.

@bayportbob @PooltoyWolf @therealjrn right which was part of why programing them was a pain. I called the local weather/time phone number to set anything. And who knows if their clocks were accurate. Anyone in their 20s is clueless lol

@DennisG2014 My TiVo is an older Premiere with lifetime service. It goes bookoop! My Roku goes bloop.

@DennisG2014 Current gen TiVos still make that famous TiVo sound. Just like my Nokia 6.1 still has that distinctive Nokia chime startup ringtone.

It’s audio branding, and it works. Just like when your mom uses your middle name.

FYI - The Roamios do OTA HD just fine. You’ll need to upgrade to a Bolt if you want 4K (they just sent out an offer to upgrade last week). I passed, since I have pokey 20MBit/s bandwidth and only Netflix is streaming in 4K anyway. There are no OTA 4K braodcasts outside of maybe NYC, CHI, SF, & LA to test. And I’m not in a big market cities.

@cf1 I have a 2 32inch heavy as shit CRTs you can have all though even if you pay for shipping I’m not sure I want to try and pick up or pack them

@unksol I moved a friend’s 36" Trinitron to an upstairs apartment, then from there to his house, and finally about a year ago from his house to the curb when he moved to his new house. Man was I glad to see that thing go. I’m pretty sure after the first move upstairs I told him I wasn’t touching it again.

@djslack @unksol I’m pretty sure the shipping would be a bit too high. Also, I’m not sure how I would get them inside, let alone into the bedroom and up on the stand. But I do appreciate the offer.

@djslack @unksol

I moved a friend’s 36" Trinitron to an upstairs apartment, then from there to his house, and finally about a year ago from his house to the curb when he moved to his new house.

Was it HD? What was the aspect ratio?

@cf1 @djslack eh. If I ever find a nice girl to have kids with I kind of want them around anyway to make the kids watch cartoons and play games. They shouldn’t have nice things lol. We played on the 10 inch black and white from the garage sale and were damn happy about it

@Limewater no, it was 4:3 and 400 to 300 lbs too from the feel of it.

@djslack @Limewater I miss console TV’s.

@djslack @Limewater @therealjrn I can’t find a picture of it online but my previous bedroom tv was a Zenith Space Command from the 1980s in a wood case. I think it still works but it is in the spare room and currently inaccessible. It had a really good picture. I also have a little black and white portable in the bedroom closet. They were both gifted to me.

@djslack anyone recording to a VCR has a OTA digital tuner box. Probably like my dad they stockpilied a couple when they were free although you can still buy them. They never made a VCR with a digital tuner that I’m aware of for obvious reasons.

@dashcloud The non-smart Sceptre looks like a bargain. Oh, and free delivery!