So that Brexit thing happened...

@Dizavid we live in a global economy… have you noticed what the Pound is up to today?

Or should I say down to?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@jbartus It’ll bounce right back up, just you wait.

Nationalism is the scariest fucking thing out there

Nationalsozialismus.

What’s a good abbreviation for that?

No one has any say in where he or she is born. It was a decision made for us.

We should all strive to live a life in which we are proud of what we’ve done after the day we were born, not what happened before that. None of us had any input on how we got here, and can only control where we’re going.

Be proud of what you’re contributing now, not what your ancestors did or how things used to be. Learn from the past, but do not become a slave to it.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with making and breaking alliances. Maybe brexit is a good thing, maybe it isn’t. But decisions should be made based on racing to the future, not running from the past. Optimism, not fear. Solutions, not complaints.

42 year Army veteran here. 24 years on active duty, 18 as an Army brat. I love my country with a fervor that words can not express. There is so much good in America, and still so much potential. But blind nationalism scares me more than anything. I don’t want folks to love America because they were told to. I want them to love it because they’ve crunched the numbers, looked at the good and the bad, and see the potential still out there.

@Dizavid Everybody drawing national lines just gives us all more reason to fight with each other. People would get along a lot better if we were a global community. By your logic, the United States would be better off divided.

@Dizavid

The new PM will see you now, Mr Trump

@Dizavid he just effectively lost a confidence vote. 52% against his position is a vote of no confidence. What the hell else was he gonna do?

@jbartus Be a man and finish his term?

@Dizavid He would not have been allowed to do so. Parliamentary politics, while a Republic is very different from how we do it in the US. Ragequit is not good, but quietly stepping down and/or dissolving Parliament and calling for a new election was.

@Dizavid it’s called integrity. Something politicians in this country lack. You fuck up, you take responsibility, end of story.

@simssj Apparently not! Very surprised.

@Dizavid

Haven’t figured out a lot, apparently

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends-tech/

@chacham But the exit vote is going to have consequences. In both N. Ireland and Scotland, the vote was majority to stay, with most of the exit votes coming from London and vicinity, and Wales. So both N. Ireland and Scotland are seeing a resurgence of “independence fever” from the UK. I have no idea how this will play out, because there’s no guarantee that either Scotland or a reunited Ireland would be admitted to the EU independent of England. Pandora’s Box.

@rockblossom Scotland realized full and well they have no more economic ability to be independent of the UK than the upper peninsula of Michigan, from Michigan. (They make independence noise every once in a while as well.)

Best way to get buy-in? Ask for buy-in.

Why doesn’t the president chair a governors’ conference every other year? Simple agenda: this is the stuff we want to do, get feedback on the list, then develop methods for the states to opt in or out.

Eg, lets talk highway money. This is how much we’ve raised in taxes, this is how we’re divvying it up, who wants in, who wants out?

Next subject is X. X will only work if we get 75% buy-in, who’s in?

Next is Y. The Feds can provide this, the states needs to do that, and after so long, we’ll do the other. Like it, dislike it, any other ideas?

Final action item is Z. Program is so many years old, this part is working, this part isn’t, do we kill the program or modify it?

You know … Maybe run the country like we’re grown ups? Like we’re the country that invented the MBA and we’re going to actually follow best practices?

@RedOak I don’t know about that. Maybe the yoopers can cash their copper mines to provide more cups for meh.

@rockblossom actually, if you look at the maps, London was majority stay, in all but 3 districts, all on the extreme limits of the city. In fact, throughout England and Wales, the cities voted to stay, it’s the folks out in the country that voted to leave.

@earlyre Correct. I misstated that. It was the areas around London and around the cities in Wales that had the highest vote to leave, while people in the cities voted to stay. That’s also consistent with the breakout by age and education - the younger and more educated the voter, the more likely they voted to stay. (That was what I was saying in my head, but my typing fingers had other ideas!) Thanks for the correction!

@chacham

Gets a pretty good pension after 6 years.

@MehnofLaMehncha Maybe they’ll pay him in Euros.

@chacham he didn’t have much choice, he was such a force for staying that the vote resulting in this manner is effectively a vote of no confidence.

@jbartus Maybe yes, maybe not. But even so, compare it to Obama’s response to electing the largest Republican majority in congress and all the states, “we heard you” and that the people were saying he was obviously not pushing his agenda hard enough, so he decided to push for his plans even harder and further.

Compared to that narcissist, Cameron’s a saint.

@chacham I don’t really thing there’s any maybe about it, when the PM is adamantly in favor of staying and 52% vote against him that basically says they don’t trust what he says.

That said, no argument that Cameron could have been a jerk about it and made them force him out. The key with him is that despite any policy disagreements a given person might have with him the reality of the matter is that he cares about Britain more than his own ego.

@jbartus

when the PM is adamantly in favor of staying and 52% vote against him that basically says they don’t trust what he says.

That’s a non-sequitur. You are allowed to have an opinion not shared by the majority and still have the people like you. Indeed, often the people just like one of your ideas and follow you on the rest, or just get behind the person due to name recognition or party affiliation. This is very, very common in many countries.

The fact that he allowed the vote, however, can more likely be ascribed to your reasoning.

// The US, at its founding, was far
// more homogeneous, culturally
// than were the EU countries.

Were we?

Other than being mostly white?

Not a fair comparison, 1700s to 2000s. Culture only gets more complicated.

But at least 10 of the original 13 had religious tests for voting in their constitutions, and I believe there were 8 different religions favored.

My family traces back to George Washington (also George Custer.) Got French trapper aunts and uncles in upstate New York, Pennsylvania Dutch in western PA, Appalachian Scots, and eastern euro mulligan stew that settled every which way. The more I learn about how they got here, the more I notice the uniqueness of who they were and where they came from, despite the lack of variety in the skin tone department.

My great grandfather didn’t speak English, despite being a 5th or 6th generation American.

My wife’s family is similar. Settled in Nebraska late 1800s, spoke only German for 3 generations.

Interesting times.

@MehnofLaMehncha you are a treasure

@MehnofLaMehncha
And then Texit? I hear twitter is already amok in that one.

@MehnofLaMehncha A few years ago the northwest suburbs of shitcago in crook county voted (non-binding) to leave and form a new county to get away from the corruption, cronyism, favoritism, patronage, gerrymandering, and downright criminality of cook county and its ‘machine’ government. Nothing came of it (its too hard! it would cost too much! etc). But it would be awesome if brexit got some movement going in that direction again.

@MehnofLaMehncha Add Swedone, Denmarkation and Cyaprus to that.

@RedOak Pound is weak, British productivity is weak (overall, not everywhere). I doubt they’re going to lead the continent in anything except ugly headlines

@compunaut however, they’re showing signs of waking up to the stink of internationalism! Step 1.

@RedOak But is the trouble worth it? The stench of nationalism could very well be worse

@compunaut nationalism = individualism and self-determination. Internationalism = tyranny.

Internationalism eventually turns to socialism. Because it has to in order to continue.

Think UN - a failure-prone, corrupt global public entity if ever there was one.

So yes, the “trouble” is very definitely worth it!

@RedOak UN is nothing like EU. The first is a diplomatic organization with little power to make everyone play nice. The other is an economic organization only bound together for trade benefits; countries volunteered & petitioned to be included. There’s no more tyranny involved than any other negotiated treaty.
It is often argued that:

1. The most nationalistic governments are also the most tyrannical
2. Extreme nationalism led directly to both World Wars and more recently to the Bosnian genocide and Ukrainian conflict

TL;DR: Pshaw - nationalism leading to armed conflict is NOT worth it

@compunaut they’re a lot more similar than that. A key difference is one has had a lot more time to “mature” into what it is today.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on self-determination vs global rule.

@compunaut the EU is a lot more than just a trade group, it’s basically a half-assed United States of Europe where everybody wants to have their cake and eat it too. My European friends seem to feel that the core issue behind Brexit is that the EU has what is basically a two-house system with the upper house being appointed as opposed to elected and being the sole origin point for new legislation. I.E. the elected representatives can vote on new laws but not propose them. My British friends (and some Swedes I talk to) say that if that were to change Britain would probably elect not to exercise Article 50 and stay in the EU, that the hope for Brexit is that it will be a wake up call.

@toposhaba2

Can’t find anyone who agrees with you on that. Not saying that you are wrong, only that I’m not seeing evidence that you’re right

Eg,
http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-in-brussels-junckers-mic-drop-and-political-brexploitation/

@MehnofLaMehncha That is just a the EU trying not to put a strong front on and look like they have more negotiating power.

@toposhaba2

Britain lost negotiation power by voting first, working terms later. Got zero leverage now. What are they going to do? Say that they don’t like the terms, so they’re staying?

100 articles, 80 say the UK will get screwed, 10 neutral, 10 good deal for Brits.

Markets aren’t on the pound’s side right now.

I’m as far from an expert as you can get. Just saying, numbers don’t look good.

There’s a hole in the world like a great black pit
And the vermin of the world inhabit it
And it’s morals aren’t worth what a pig can spit
And it goes by the name of London
At the top of the hole sit the privileged few
Making mock of the vermin in the lower zoo
Turning beauty into filth and greed
I too have sailed the world and seen its wonders
For the cruelty of men is as wondrous as Peru
But there’s no place like London

@MehnofLaMehncha

@MehnofLaMehncha Articles are bullshit. I can say I am a 80 times doens’t make it true. There is nothing wrong with the pound going down. Just means UK goods will be cheaper for other countries and could easily make the difference up with loss of trade with the rest of the EU.

If you want to understand how much negotiating power the UK has just look here.

@toposhaba2

You’re welcome.

@toposhaba2 Which would be fine if the UK exported more than it imported. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case.

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx

Total trade exports for April 2016 were £25.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.1 billion (0.4 per cent) compared with last month and a decrease of £1.3 billion (4.9 per cent) compared with April 2015.

Total trade imports for April 2016 were £41.0 billion. This was an increase of £1.2 billion (3.0 per cent) compared with last month and an increase of £7.3 billion (21.7 per cent) compared with April 2015

A drop in the buying power of the Pound is a serious thing, especially if it stays down for months.

@rockblossom Well, it’s down about 4.6% on the week against the dollar, and I’m watching for a good fare sale.

@rockblossom @toposhaba2 there’s also the matter of the EU having no reason to extend extra friendly trading terms to the UK since the UK backed out. There’s no cause to expect them to get a more favorable trading position than any other non-EU power and since they are dependent on mainland imports it could raise the cost of living in Britain dramatically.

@Moose “Off with their heads!”

@Moose queen hasn’t been the same since freddie mercury died

@Moose Queens are just pawns that stayed around long enough without dying.

@chacham man you don’t know chess at all do you

@Moose Ugh, you found out about my checkered past…

@OldCatLady

Huge fan of city-states!! Need more of them. Plus moats. Can’t dig moats fast enough for my money.

Also need more cities in the clouds. Solves so many problems.

@OldCatLady a lot of folks here would love it if chicago would do that here in illinois. Removing that influence would (while admittedly being financially stinging) be like removing a mafiosa protection racket from the entire rest of the state.

@Moose time to cash out

@rockblossom Now THAT is one session of the PM questions that I will watch with glee. They always make our Congressional acting out look positively sedate.

@OldCatLady With silly wigs! I think more people in the USA would watch Congressional goings-on if Congressmencritters and Senators were made to wear robes and silly wigs.

@rockblossom

And walk funny.

@MehnofLaMehncha

@rockblossom Actually the Prime Minister’s Questions are asked and answered by people in bespoke suits and very nice shoes, on the floor of the House of Commons. It can get rowdy at the best of times, and things get LOUD very quickly. The level of invective at the next one ought to be spectacular. Accusations will be levelled. Comparisons will be drawn. Projections of disaster will be made. Next one will be aired at 10:50 PM on BBC World on 29 June. http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/parliament-government-and-politics/parliament/prime-ministers-questions/

@OldCatLady

There’s also this:

And this:

@TickledLizard Incognito mode, eh? Don’t want anyone seeing in your history that you looked up maps of the UK! The shame!

@medz
Actually, all the BBC stuff has been done in the regular browser.

There are certain TV shows which I’ve looked stuff up for in Incognito mode so as not to make Google Now think that I want cards associated with the shows.

@TickledLizard I see.

…certain TV shows…

/giphy wink wink

@cinoclav

Could we let Trump go to N. Korea then?

@cinoclav I noticed that Donald Trump, after ignoring the ongoing vote to talk about golf courses, then praised the exit vote as a good thing because the sudden depreciation of the Pound will bring in more American tourists. This in Scotland, that just voted 62% to 38% to stay in the EU. The one thing consistent about Mr. Trump is his tone-deafness.

@rockblossom Oh, this is absolutely hysterical. The author’s comments in the highlighted links are a nice bonus. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/24/donald-trumps-brexit-press-conference-was-beyond-bizarre/

My favorite is this one: "Trump was asked about the timing of his visit to Scotland given the Brexit vote.

He is now talking about big rigs."

@cinoclav - He really didn’t have to illustrate what a big dick he is, the guy is anything but subtle.

@cinoclav I can’t get through his speech. Not ‘to’, I just can’t track the sense. I will say it does have words in it, lots and lots of words, and they’re all in sentences except when they’re not. Thing? The highlights are absolutely going to appear on a late-night TV comedy routine soon. He has outdone Romney on idiocy, and I thought that couldn’t be done.
/giphy nonsense

@KDemo @cinoclav @OldCatLady

Well some people can’t help but reveal how ignorant they are in certain fields.

The problem is though, that a lot of people feel that this year is a horrible year to have him as the Republican candidate.

@TickledLizard On the flip side, I think a lot of Democrats are particularly pleased with him as the nominee.

@cinoclav

Well a lot of us aren’t particularly thrilled with either option.

@cinoclav The Scot lot aren’t mealy mouthed about their opinion of him, either.

Can we please not make this topic about the US Election? I would appreciate it, I want to talk about the EU issue here, not domestic petty party politics.

@jbartus - It’s often counterproductive to try to control the direction of these conversations. People want to talk about what’s on their minds, and this is peripherally related. You may think politics are petty, but think of what’s at stake.

@jbartus Okay. (It was peripherally about Brexit, since it was the media reaction to a spectacularly inappropriate speech given in Scotland just after the most important political and economic event in half a century.)

@OldCatLady The problem was not so much how it begun but what it did, and would inevitably, evolve into. It absolutely was peripherally relevant, no question, it’s just that tt opened the floodgates to turn this into yet another place for the anti-Trump people to clash with the anti-Clinton people and doesn’t really add much to the discussion of the implications of Brexit itself to justify the negative. Thanks for your understanding!

@jbartus Wholeheartedly agree w/ @KDemo and would just add… creating a discussion does not grant ownership over it. If you’re going to open something up, you necessarily must cede control. When you attempt to dictate such a thing, one way or another… you end up talking to yourself. I get the sentiment, the desire… but… this is a really heavy time, shit is hitting us from all directions. People have fires lit inside them, they need to. All manner of conversations are going to get very heated, even aggressive for… let’s just say the foreseeable future.

@brhfl I don’t seem to recall asserting ownership or dictating anything. I’m pretty sure I made a request, I even said please. I certainly don’t have any power with which to assert any sort of control over the topic of discussion, I can’t delete comments or edit out references I like or anything of that sort, so the claim that I attempted to dictate anything is spurious at best. I made a request plain and simple. No more, no less. Maybe re-read what I actually had to say. You and @KDemo both.

@jbartus Are you trying to bump your thread, or are you really that thin-skinned? If you’ll read those posts, they are imparting constructive advice, explaining motivations in the same vein as your prolific attempts to educate others. Please think about that.

@OldCatLady “Why We Love Scotland!” was a very satisfying read. Therapeutic, even. Thanks for sharing.

@OldCatLady Or maybe Nigel Farage

@TimWalter

I never said I “longed for homogeneity”. And never referred to or implied race. Cultural richness benefits everyone. However, segregated culture benefits few. There is plenty of separation in our part of the country as well as integration. I much prefer the latter.

Why is it progressives typically seem preoccupied with race and classifying people by skin color? Could it be they are the racists themselves? Seems they’ve done more to put up hurdles of dependency and false assumptions of racial inferiority than anybody else. 50 years of evidence.

@RedOak Your posts in this topic are full of “dog whistles”. Words like homogeneous and phrases like “hurdles of dependency”…and of course, the always good line of attack… ‘you talk about race, you must be a racist!’

I think I can be forgiven for asking the initial question… you see you do say you want a homogeneous culture, “Don’t get me wrong - I’m all for zero barrier trading, globally… (parenthetical phrase)… But not at the expense of self-determination and homogenized culture.” And, the very definition of Homogeneous is : Of the same kind; alike. Synonyms: Uniform, identical, unvaried, consistent, indistinguishable, homologous".

And like most folks who wish for a homogeneous culture, you even have a scapegoat: Those darn Progressives.

You cite “50 years of evidence”… here is something to reflect on: 50 years ago this very month, James Meredith began his “March Against Fear” from Memphis to Jackson to encourage voter registration. He was shot while marching near Hernando, Mississippi. I don’t think you can blame that on Progressives. In fact, I think you can blame that on people who advocated for a homogeneous culture.

@TimWalter

1. Who fought against the Civil Rights Act and who supported it? Who takes a condescending, “let’s make up for your weakness” view and who prefers laws that are color-blind?

2. Progressive censoring of language and speech happens too often - “trigger words”, “micro-regressions”. The hyper-sensitivity is tiresome. Attempts to shut down counter-opinions. Everyone isn’t going to agree on everything. Progressives have weakened direct and clear speech with this censoring. Stifling speech is antithetical to the Liberalism that formally existed in the Democratic party.

3. My use of the word “Homogeneous” was unfortunate in that context. I apologize for that. Blame my dictionary ignorance, not my intent. I meant culturally compatible, not, identical. I meant, and I believe I said it, “Americans first, home culture second”. Our family has immigrants not too far back and we celebrate cultural heritage. But not to the extent that it contradicts our nation’s culture.

4. Recent immigrants, in many but certainly not all cases, proudly proclaim they hold their home cultures ahead of American culture and values.

I don’t want America to throw out what made us great. The “melting pot” is part of that. We can and have improved on racial bigotry issues. We should not apologize for that success. We should not apologize for being the most “good” country in history, backed by an incredible amount of evidence for such a young country. We haven’t been perfect, but name a country that has done more good, more consistently, especially in such a short time frame.

You apparently like European-style government. We won’t likely convince each other and I realize the tendency here on Meh is toward progressive. So be it.

@RedOak I have not said one word about Brexit or the European style of government. So, what you suppose about my opinion on that is just that - supposition. In fact, you have supposed me to be an evil Progressive… at least on that you have some basis for your supposition… I did express a willingness to tolerate multiculturalism while you want that stifled… at least from folks in the “last 30 years”.

If you are tired of your words being parsed, then stop using words that can be parsed. End the use of the dog whistle phrases. Say what you mean, don’t dance around it. As for wanting to shut down opinions or discussion… I think this thread shows that is not the case. We are having a discussion and we both have opinions. If you feel aggrieved, I suggest you look inward and not outward to Progressives.

As for who supported Civil Rights, that is a red herring and you should know it. Democrats in the South opposed Civil Rights… not because they were Democrats, but because they were racists. Nationally Democrats took the lead on Civil Rights… and that is why the South is almost entirely Republican now. The racists saw they had no place in the modern Democratic party… but… of course, the Republicans have only been too pleased to welcome them in… and now the Republicans are led by a racist, xenophobic, misogynist bigot. He is condemned by his own words, as he often forgets to use the tried and true dog whistle phrases of his predecessors.

I’d be happy to argue civil right issues with you, though I doubt we have time right now. I don’t. But, to answer at least one charge: What you see as laws “making up for your (perceived by Progressives) weakness” I would argue is an attempt to level the playing field… or do you think racism and institutional racism are no longer practiced in this country? I can point to the leader of a major political party to prove otherwise.

@RedOak except to hear tell from a pro-Brexit friend of mine in the UK, the committee in question, while yes appointed and yes the ones who propose new laws, still have to send it to a vote by elected–not appointed–officials.

@RedMartian Ironically most Scots do not agree,

@dashcloud - Thanks, that was a hopeful message - others in the same vein: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/could-brexit-be-canceled-here-s-how-vote-could-be-n600451
http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/why-brexit-might-not-happen-at-all?mbid=social_facebook