@jbartus It maps out the room. So like he said it will run into furniture when you move it. However, the next time it runs it shouldn't run into the furniture if it is in the same place as it will have the room mapped out.
Roombas on the otherhand (in my experience, they may have changed since I owned one) just bounce off everything and don't really clean in a determinable pattern. The last time I owned a Roomba was 3 years ago, so their technology may have changed since then.
(well almost the new algorithms in the last update chop it into smaller "squares" now)
and keep branching into each room (usually the right room from the room you start it in, and then the next right room, etc) until they are done.
If they see an object it thinks is a chair/table leg it will circle it trying to clear around it.. and then return to the pattern.. it also has some cable sensing algorithms so if it thinks it is tangled it will stop the agitator and try to lift itself out of the mess.
If it does get stuck and cant get loose it will alert you with beeps and then power down.
It returns home when its needs a charge (and then returns to where it left off and continues), or when it's done.
Basically it's a roomba with a plan, instead of using the cleaning power of chaos.
@thismyusername interesting. So if it runs into, say, a backpack, will it go chair/table mode and try to skirt around it or have a conniption? Also, if I wanted to use it in a room which has stairs headed down without a door or anything to close it off, would it identify it as such or will I need some kind of invisible wall gadget? I'm liking the sound of this overall.
@jbartus it will go around it, and it might push it up against a wall.
It has drop sensors, it won't fall down stairs.
They do include a magenetic rubber thing you can use to block it from areas if you want... or you can use physical barriers.
The neato (any vacuum bot really) wont replace your normal vacuum, but it does cut down on needing to use the normal vacuum. These Botvac units do a have a little flipper spinner thing that the older design (xv series) didn't so they do better at getting the edges, but you will need to hit the corners with the normal vacuum every now and again.
@thismyusername the space I'm thinking of is one big room anyhow (finished attic) just curious what it would do about the unexpected obstacle. On its next run would it assume the bag to be present? How would one restore it to not expecting the bag so it doesn't try to go around a nonexistent bag?
P.S. - Thanks a lot for your responses, very informative and helpful. :)
On its next run would it assume the bag to be present?
In my experience no, but I can't swear to it... it's an on the fly navigation algorithm with perhaps some minor memory system for re-locating the charger as far as I can tell.
I will warn that if you have odd shaped chairs (non square layout) it tends to confuse both the botvac and the xv series... they get stuck inside the chair legs at times since they are assuming chair legs are square.
If it does get a weird pattern that doesn't work well (say it gets stuck in a weird spot over and over for no reason) just re-position the dock in another location.
I will say it's a very clever movement algorithm... while a roomba does get the job done eventually, the neato wins with speed and sucking power (well compared to the older roombas I hear the newer ones have upped the sucking game).
@jbartus overall, i'm really happy with the XV-21s that I picked up here last year, when they work. I say that because I had both of them warranty replaced, and one of them broke again immediately after the warranty expired. So I'm down to one, and one for parts now. The replacement that still works has been going at least 6 months vacuuming at least once a day, and has been great.
The mapping algorithm is really surprisingly decent. It does a 3D scan of a large area, and then it drives out the area that it saw. If it hits anything within that area, it marks it as a block, figures out it's area, and drives around it. If it finds a block in an area that it didn't think should be blocked, it will attempt the area at least twice, in case the block was temporary (like smashing into my dog). Closing doors on it during a run after it's already mapped can be bad (It may scream "Clear my path!" if it's sure that it SHOULD be able to go there).
It works great with multiple chargers, too. It'll go to the nearest charger when it needs power in the middle of a clean.
About the only thing that drives me nuts, is that it has to be emptied LONG before it gets to the "EMPTY DUST BIN" warning. Could be because every person and pet in this place has long hair that clogs it up, though.
i tend to disagree - it only remembers today (no mapping), not what it learned yesterday - obstacles are OK, but not if it can go under them and get stuck, it won't remember that mistake tomorrow, or the day after - yea, basically never. So you can use the mag. boundaries to tell it where NOT to go, and buy those as extras on amamzon, shoes or backpacks that have things that will get sucked up - buyer beware, you basically have to make the room 'cleanish' and 'no go unders' so it can do its thing.
@emci13 yea, i wasn't saying a roomba is better (i think i didn't mention roomba), i was just only saying lasers <> AI, these things don't learn, which contradicted my impression when i bought the neato. oh yea, the lcd display crapped out after a year too, but if you memorize the button sequence, this isn't an issue
@DMlivezey Yeah I think I conflated your comment with Minions'. With the neato the problem is that once you leave it off the charger and the battery runs out, the whole system resets (at least it did on the xv-11), so it made the scheduler pretty much impossible to set again. For me, this is the cheapest price I can find right now for one of these and I'd like to replace it. I'll be satisfied if I get at least another three years out of it, but I'm not holding my breath once the warranty ends.
@DMlivezey They do learn during their run, though. I was super impressed when mine got stuck in a doorway with a lip, and decided to go at it sideways to get over it. Worked, too. But, yeah, it can get under things and get stuck. I've not really had a problem with that, though.
@eblade agreed on the in-flight learning. i bought some extra magnetic strip on amazon to keep it from under the couch and contain it to one room at a time
Sort of good timing. My XV-11 just experienced LCD failure after three years. Buying this on the exact day I purchased that. Before that, I had a refurb Roomba that I got from the other site in 2006. But that's not necessarily an endorsement of one over the other.
I'm hoping that it's different, but it's probably not: the big point of failure for Neatos really seems to be the LCD display. Once it goes, you're SOL. You can run it manually but scheduling is impossible. So long out of warranty, Neato wants you to pay to ship it to their authorized repair facility, which is more or less a cryptic black box. I figure I could have run the Neato for a few more years manually until the battery gave out and was too obsolete to be replaced in an economical manner (which is why I upgraded from the Roomba, plus I wanted scheduling), but not having the LCD working is a problem that would necessitate a new purchase sooner or later, and why the hell not.
...now that I think about it, why the hell did I just press the buy button?
Neatos and Roombas all are shit. Just shit in different ways.
P.S. Why the hell am I talking like I'm over the hump already? "Back in my day Tonto my trusty Roomba and I were cleaning up the beaches at Normandy. I told him that beaches were always gonna be dirty, but Tonto, well he sure sucked up all the sand he set his eyes on."
@emci13 LIDAR units removed from XV-11's sell for about $80 each on ebay. That is the cheapest way to get a LIDAR for hobby robotics. It is easy to interface them to an Arduino. Thus any Arduino based robot can gain the power of lasers.
@emci13 I've had 3 failures, and they all failed in the same way -- they all thought that they were permanently attached to the charger, even when they weren't. The one I've got failing now, that htey want me to send in for repair, will work for the first run after it's been charged, but the moment it hits a bump, it believes it's charging, and aborts a run. From that point on, it will not start because it thinks it never gets off the charger. I have to drain the battery completely and recharge it. Good to know what @hamjudo said though, because I can definitely pull out the LIDAR, and keep the batteries and accessories as backup to my working one
The Neato works in areas that are very flat, and bounded by artificial barriers, real walls, obstacles at about 2 inches above the floor, and cliffs (stairs). It maps out the whole area, and then tries to go over every part of it that is clear at the 2 inch level.
Assuming you have a large flat area, you could adjust the height of the LIDAR to be above the tallest grass, but still low enough to be below the shortest physical obstacle. This would have the humorous effect of mowing your lawn, except for the dandelions. Just mow it often enough, that no weeds have a chance to reach the scanner. I believe that means twice a day.
The snow blower has even more challenges. The optical qualities of snow varies quite a bit. The vacuum maps with a laser based LIDAR. One day the LIDAR might be able to see the snow, and another day, it might not. More likely, it will see some of the snow, but not all. Sometimes snow sticks to walls and other stuff. This means the snowblower will sometimes be blind. Other times it will avoid any place with significant snow accumulation, because the drifts are high enough to count as obstacles.
My Neato XV from the "other" site finally bit the dust (har) after 3 years of faithful service. With 3 dogs (one golden retriever), he took a beating, even attempted suicide down the staircase a time or two. But then he started going senile, first only cleaning half the room, then eventually would only get about 5 feet away from the base, spin around a few times, get ALMOST back home and proudly chime completion...Now, Neato is comatose and unresponsive. All the resets and robo-CPR won't bring him back from oblivion. The timing is good...I was about to start sweeping the floor with a broom like some kind of goddamn caveman.
@thismyusername I was sad that my SNES colored ones got warranty replaced with black ones. But the black ones do really look better, I just liked the amusement of having the SNES colors.
@one_two3456 That's a good question! Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone will be around the office or warehouse today to check on/answer that before the sale ends. Sorry!
@Thumperchick Well I've been meaning to up my cardio and I can turn "running to the front door before everyone" a charming idiosyncrasy of mine. Thanks for the info. Happy thanksgiving!
@one_two3456 I think everything we've bought from Meh has been smaller than a bread box (and when in multiples, shipped in boxes smaller than a large microwave oven). That being said, 100% of the stuff has been shipped in a plain box or bubble pack with no clue to the contents other than it being "meh".
@one_two3456Caution, learned early on in our 25 year (so far) marriage: household maintenance devices given as gifts don't always warm the heart of women like they might, men (tools). Disclaimer: yes, that was a "traditional" observation. No offense intended for folks in non-archaic relationships. ... As a "family" gift, a much better match.
Anyone recall the price on this? My XV-11 also died. New Egg has a solid price right now but as I recall this deal didn't sell out so might be worth waiting for it to come back around.
Specs
Condition: New
Warranty: 1 Year Neato (Six month for battery)
Estimated Delivery: 12/4 - 12/7
Shipping: $5 or free with VMP
What’s in the Box?
1x Robot Vacuum
1x Combo Brush
1x Side Brush
1x Integrated Charge Base
1x Power Cord
5x Standard Filter
1x Roll of boundary markers
1x User Guide
Pictures
Retail box
Robot
Top view
Everything included
3/4 view
Charging
Banana
Price Comparison
$367.95 at Amazon
Was $300 at Costco
Find a relevant price comparison? Please share it in a comment in this thread
Warranty
90 days
Sucky gift ??
Meh Turkey Day
Well that's pretty neat.
I shaved my balls for this?
Vac to the Future (see one in the next fuku?)
I wish. I need a robot vacuum so bad. >.<
@Pony
Which reminds me. Sadly (for you) I'm gonna have to decline your offer of 2 drawstring bags and the fanny pack for my Roomba.
@FroodyFrog Yeah, I kinda figured. :p
@Pony You don't want this Neato then. You want a wife.
@Pony
Turns out, it doubles as security since some people i know refuse to go anywhere near it. Even when it's off. Hehe.
@mike808 I can't afford a wife, either. (Actually, I -am- a wife. A disabled, sick wife who can't do her job anymore.)
Evidently bananas find this vacuum "appealing"
@AttyVette don't you mean appeeling?
@jbartus yes..yes I did...a www guess I " slipped up " on the spelling :)
@AttyVette don't worry, I'll keep my eyes peeled for you, and I'll never split. Us mehmbers gotta stick together in bunches!
@jbartus @AttyVette STOP IT! Don't make me pull this car over!
@G1 car or cart?
Vacuums suck.
Love my neato Botvac 85 and my neato xv-21 (which has been relocated to the garage now).
These don't learn. Don't let the laser hype reel you in. Go ahead, move your furniture, it's like AI with ALZ.
@DMlivezey that's disappointing. How does it handle obstacles? Things like shoes or backpacks discarded at random.
@jbartus It maps out the room. So like he said it will run into furniture when you move it. However, the next time it runs it shouldn't run into the furniture if it is in the same place as it will have the room mapped out.
Roombas on the otherhand (in my experience, they may have changed since I owned one) just bounce off everything and don't really clean in a determinable pattern. The last time I owned a Roomba was 3 years ago, so their technology may have changed since then.
@Minions This isn't quite right. The neato maps the room out, but it doesn't have memory that carries it from one cleaning to the next.
@emci13 does it self-reset for obstacles or does it get 'stuck' until you take it back to home base or something?
@jbartus they run the pattern on the right
(well almost the new algorithms in the last update chop it into smaller "squares" now)
and keep branching into each room (usually the right room from the room you start it in, and then the next right room, etc) until they are done.
If they see an object it thinks is a chair/table leg it will circle it trying to clear around it.. and then return to the pattern.. it also has some cable sensing algorithms so if it thinks it is tangled it will stop the agitator and try to lift itself out of the mess.
If it does get stuck and cant get loose it will alert you with beeps and then power down.
It returns home when its needs a charge (and then returns to where it left off and continues), or when it's done.
Basically it's a roomba with a plan, instead of using the cleaning power of chaos.
@thismyusername interesting. So if it runs into, say, a backpack, will it go chair/table mode and try to skirt around it or have a conniption? Also, if I wanted to use it in a room which has stairs headed down without a door or anything to close it off, would it identify it as such or will I need some kind of invisible wall gadget? I'm liking the sound of this overall.
@jbartus it will go around it, and it might push it up against a wall.
It has drop sensors, it won't fall down stairs.
They do include a magenetic rubber thing you can use to block it from areas if you want... or you can use physical barriers.
The neato (any vacuum bot really) wont replace your normal vacuum, but it does cut down on needing to use the normal vacuum. These Botvac units do a have a little flipper spinner thing that the older design (xv series) didn't so they do better at getting the edges, but you will need to hit the corners with the normal vacuum every now and again.
@thismyusername the space I'm thinking of is one big room anyhow (finished attic) just curious what it would do about the unexpected obstacle. On its next run would it assume the bag to be present? How would one restore it to not expecting the bag so it doesn't try to go around a nonexistent bag?
P.S. - Thanks a lot for your responses, very informative and helpful. :)
@jbartus
In my experience no, but I can't swear to it... it's an on the fly navigation algorithm with perhaps some minor memory system for re-locating the charger as far as I can tell.
I will warn that if you have odd shaped chairs (non square layout) it tends to confuse both the botvac and the xv series... they get stuck inside the chair legs at times since they are assuming chair legs are square.
If it does get a weird pattern that doesn't work well (say it gets stuck in a weird spot over and over for no reason) just re-position the dock in another location.
I will say it's a very clever movement algorithm... while a roomba does get the job done eventually, the neato wins with speed and sucking power (well compared to the older roombas I hear the newer ones have upped the sucking game).
@thismyusername nice, yeah changing the origin point would definitely help if it's calculating a route on the fly. Thanks for the info :D
@jbartus overall, i'm really happy with the XV-21s that I picked up here last year, when they work. I say that because I had both of them warranty replaced, and one of them broke again immediately after the warranty expired. So I'm down to one, and one for parts now. The replacement that still works has been going at least 6 months vacuuming at least once a day, and has been great.
The mapping algorithm is really surprisingly decent. It does a 3D scan of a large area, and then it drives out the area that it saw. If it hits anything within that area, it marks it as a block, figures out it's area, and drives around it. If it finds a block in an area that it didn't think should be blocked, it will attempt the area at least twice, in case the block was temporary (like smashing into my dog). Closing doors on it during a run after it's already mapped can be bad (It may scream "Clear my path!" if it's sure that it SHOULD be able to go there).
It works great with multiple chargers, too. It'll go to the nearest charger when it needs power in the middle of a clean.
About the only thing that drives me nuts, is that it has to be emptied LONG before it gets to the "EMPTY DUST BIN" warning. Could be because every person and pet in this place has long hair that clogs it up, though.
i tend to disagree - it only remembers today (no mapping), not what it learned yesterday - obstacles are OK, but not if it can go under them and get stuck, it won't remember that mistake tomorrow, or the day after - yea, basically never. So you can use the mag. boundaries to tell it where NOT to go, and buy those as extras on amamzon, shoes or backpacks that have things that will get sucked up - buyer beware, you basically have to make the room 'cleanish' and 'no go unders' so it can do its thing.
@DMlivezey Yeah, but this is a problem with robot vacs in general. A roomba isn't any better at this than a neato.
@emci13 yea, i wasn't saying a roomba is better (i think i didn't mention roomba), i was just only saying lasers <> AI, these things don't learn, which contradicted my impression when i bought the neato. oh yea, the lcd display crapped out after a year too, but if you memorize the button sequence, this isn't an issue
@DMlivezey Yeah I think I conflated your comment with Minions'. With the neato the problem is that once you leave it off the charger and the battery runs out, the whole system resets (at least it did on the xv-11), so it made the scheduler pretty much impossible to set again. For me, this is the cheapest price I can find right now for one of these and I'd like to replace it. I'll be satisfied if I get at least another three years out of it, but I'm not holding my breath once the warranty ends.
@DMlivezey They do learn during their run, though. I was super impressed when mine got stuck in a doorway with a lip, and decided to go at it sideways to get over it. Worked, too. But, yeah, it can get under things and get stuck. I've not really had a problem with that, though.
@eblade agreed on the in-flight learning. i bought some extra magnetic strip on amazon to keep it from under the couch and contain it to one room at a time
Sort of good timing. My XV-11 just experienced LCD failure after three years. Buying this on the exact day I purchased that. Before that, I had a refurb Roomba that I got from the other site in 2006. But that's not necessarily an endorsement of one over the other.
I'm hoping that it's different, but it's probably not: the big point of failure for Neatos really seems to be the LCD display. Once it goes, you're SOL. You can run it manually but scheduling is impossible. So long out of warranty, Neato wants you to pay to ship it to their authorized repair facility, which is more or less a cryptic black box. I figure I could have run the Neato for a few more years manually until the battery gave out and was too obsolete to be replaced in an economical manner (which is why I upgraded from the Roomba, plus I wanted scheduling), but not having the LCD working is a problem that would necessitate a new purchase sooner or later, and why the hell not.
...now that I think about it, why the hell did I just press the buy button?
Neatos and Roombas all are shit. Just shit in different ways.
P.S. Why the hell am I talking like I'm over the hump already? "Back in my day Tonto my trusty Roomba and I were cleaning up the beaches at Normandy. I told him that beaches were always gonna be dirty, but Tonto, well he sure sucked up all the sand he set his eyes on."
@emci13 LIDAR units removed from XV-11's sell for about $80 each on ebay. That is the cheapest way to get a LIDAR for hobby robotics. It is easy to interface them to an Arduino. Thus any Arduino based robot can gain the power of lasers.
@emci13 I've had 3 failures, and they all failed in the same way -- they all thought that they were permanently attached to the charger, even when they weren't. The one I've got failing now, that htey want me to send in for repair, will work for the first run after it's been charged, but the moment it hits a bump, it believes it's charging, and aborts a run. From that point on, it will not start because it thinks it never gets off the charger. I have to drain the battery completely and recharge it. Good to know what @hamjudo said though, because I can definitely pull out the LIDAR, and keep the batteries and accessories as backup to my working one
Could a brain transplant be performed from this gadget over to my servo-controlled lawn mower and to my snow thrower?
@RedOak my son's friend at UCB buys old ones to mess with the programs, just a hobby
@RedOak
The Neato works in areas that are very flat, and bounded by artificial barriers, real walls, obstacles at about 2 inches above the floor, and cliffs (stairs). It maps out the whole area, and then tries to go over every part of it that is clear at the 2 inch level.
Assuming you have a large flat area, you could adjust the height of the LIDAR to be above the tallest grass, but still low enough to be below the shortest physical obstacle. This would have the humorous effect of mowing your lawn, except for the dandelions. Just mow it often enough, that no weeds have a chance to reach the scanner. I believe that means twice a day.
The snow blower has even more challenges. The optical qualities of snow varies quite a bit. The vacuum maps with a laser based LIDAR. One day the LIDAR might be able to see the snow, and another day, it might not. More likely, it will see some of the snow, but not all. Sometimes snow sticks to walls and other stuff. This means the snowblower will sometimes be blind. Other times it will avoid any place with significant snow accumulation, because the drifts are high enough to count as obstacles.
Ignore the Neato, and just go on over to the Ardumower project http://www.ardumower.de/index.php/en/
TLDR; build one of these:
So the old founders of woot decided to sell beating instead of roomba? That is original.
@chriaanderson44 they still sell roombas.
My Neato XV from the "other" site finally bit the dust (har) after 3 years of faithful service. With 3 dogs (one golden retriever), he took a beating, even attempted suicide down the staircase a time or two.
But then he started going senile, first only cleaning half the room, then eventually would only get about 5 feet away from the base, spin around a few times, get ALMOST back home and proudly chime completion...Now, Neato is comatose and unresponsive. All the resets and robo-CPR won't bring him back from oblivion.
The timing is good...I was about to start sweeping the floor with a broom like some kind of goddamn caveman.
@mykie I suspect a new battery(s) would fix it up...
Is this made by Playmobil?
@jqubed not a fan of the Blippo font? :P
@jqubed might be a theme, check out the xv 21 color scheme:
SuperNES anyone? :)
@jbartus It's fine, I just really thought it was a toy at first.
@thismyusername Time for some original Mario Kart, Donkey Kong Country, and NBA Jam!
@thismyusername that's awesome, they really nailed the gray hue too!
@jqubed I was just teasing. :)
@thismyusername I was sad that my SNES colored ones got warranty replaced with black ones. But the black ones do really look better, I just liked the amusement of having the SNES colors.
As a gift, does this ship in a contents revealing/christmas ruining box or the normal meh brown?
@one_two3456 That's a good question! Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone will be around the office or warehouse today to check on/answer that before the sale ends. Sorry!
@Thumperchick Well I've been meaning to up my cardio and I can turn "running to the front door before everyone" a charming idiosyncrasy of mine. Thanks for the info. Happy thanksgiving!
@one_two3456 Thanks, you too!
@one_two3456 I think everything we've bought from Meh has been smaller than a bread box (and when in multiples, shipped in boxes smaller than a large microwave oven). That being said, 100% of the stuff has been shipped in a plain box or bubble pack with no clue to the contents other than it being "meh".
@one_two3456 Caution, learned early on in our 25 year (so far) marriage: household maintenance devices given as gifts don't always warm the heart of women like they might, men (tools). Disclaimer: yes, that was a "traditional" observation. No offense intended for folks in non-archaic relationships. ... As a "family" gift, a much better match.
@one_two3456 if it is like last time they sold 'em, it came in a neato branded cardboard box outside and the retail neato box inside...
@RedOak heh, that is a caution to be heeded. Thanks for the refresher. The "family" will enjoy it.
@thismyusername That's good intell. Thanks!
http://gawker.com/5875479/mortified-japanese-department-store-cleans-up-fuckin-sale
" Apparently fuckin is an unfortunate pun on fukubukuro—"lucky bags."
Anyone recall the price on this? My XV-11 also died. New Egg has a solid price right now but as I recall this deal didn't sell out so might be worth waiting for it to come back around.
@patti -It was $245, as revealed on meh. stalker (Doesn't mean the price would be the same next time :-))
@KDemo Thank you. Betting it will probably slide a hint lower. Also...mehstalker OMG! Thank you!
@patti :-) All credits go to @Lichme.