Meh you should be ashamed of yourself

@CaptAmehrican its a wrestling themed valentines card, not a pro abuse ad. Hitting people with a chair is a common wrestling trope maybe you are looking too much into it.

@droct12 that particular card has no wrestling words or really anything to put it in a wrestling context. Yes they meant it as such but all i am saying is very poorly thought out and as such brings to mind abuse not wrestling not random sales site not love basically not anything good.

@CaptAmehrican @droct12 This in no way promotes relationship abuse. Stop looking for something to be mad at on the internet and go help someone in real life. You’ll feel better.

@droct12 @zinimusprime hitting ones Valentine with a chair IS partner violence

@CaptAmehrican @zinimusprime not if said partner is in a wrestling ring and its being televised. go worry about an issue that matters and not get hung up on joke valentine’s day cards. also its a play on words from french je t’aime mon cheri is i love you my dear cheri is pronounced almost as chair.Also if your partner consents to you hitting them with a chair you can dont be a dumpling

@droct12 @zinimusprime please don’t call me names.
Second there is no wrestling ring in the card.

@CaptAmehrican there is no wrestling ring pictured in the card because this is clearly happening just outside the ring. (where the chairs are)
/image wrestling chair animated

@CaptAmehrican @medz Why isn’t he USING that chair?

@blaineg @CaptAmehrican the other guy is not his Valentine

/image give him the chair animated

@blaineg @medz The chair is his partner. He loves it after all.

@therealjrn Yeah! WTH, meh! That heart on bottom is clearly NOT consenting to that contact!

@therealjrn that one mentions at least grappling or wrestling. The other one has no images or words to make the idea of pro wrestling clear. Battery of women in particular is a huge relationship issue . I doubt they thought it thru but it comes across as beating your partners which is so very wrong

@CaptAmehrican I hear ya. Do you think people are actually going to hit somebody with a chair because of this?

@therealjrn no but i think it normalizes partner violence and that stops people from getting help and out of abusive relationships.

@CaptAmehrican I don’t want to be flip so I’m just going to have to think about this. I’ve no experience in abusive relationships so I probably can’t get my brain to view this through the lens you’re presenting this morning without some more thought.

@therealjrn thank you. Sometimes the idea of well I will think about that is the best thing for everyone.

@CaptAmehrican @therealjrn I’m glad you said something, Cap. I was puzzled by the cards yesterday, and the chair one made especially no sense to me. Believe it or not, the whole wrestling theme didn’t even click for me — I just saw a lot of hearts beating each other up. Like…why?!?

People are in gross relationships all the time, and yeah, violence is unfortunately way too common. Why pick this theme for silly cards? Just seems wack to me.

But…I’m literally a trembling leaf of delicate arctic tundra. I reluctantly acknowledge that the world will continue to stomp all over my feelings until I die. Still…why does it have to come from the Meh writers, who are usually a more whimsical bunch?!

@CaptAmehrican @therealjrn They have pants - which means they are shirtless - and a completely topless character with huge muscles would be the portrayal of a muscly shirtless man hitting a muscly shirtless man with a chair, with a french word “chair” pun.

@therealjrn @TrASypher partner violence happens in same sex relationships too

@CaptAmehrican @therealjrn We (including YOU) are judging a number of details in an image and the relationships those details have with Statistics and happenings in real life. Same sex male on male with no shirts on, but pants, with chairs, and huge muscles doesn’t line up with the intersections of identities that would describe the predominant victims of the abuse you are talking about. Women in different-sex relationships make the vast majority the sufferers of domestic abuse.

@TrASypher
/UNSUBSCRIBE

@CaptAmehrican Nice.
/youtube pearl necklace

@CaptAmehrican A “pearl necklace” is a way to dominate and humiliate a woman.
Only half kidding.
Being facetious.

@CaptAmehrican @DennisG2014 WHAAAAT?? Meh sells pearl necklaces!

@CaptAmehrican @therealjrn Like I said, just being facetious.
But don’t pretend you don’t know what a “pearl necklace” is.

@DennisG2014 @therealjrn oh i meant the double entendre of peice of jewelry and male ejaculate. I thought it was funny. Also often consenting.

@aetris Some of us are most offended by the poor expression of ideas (apropos of nothing other than the phrasing above; Mel Brooks’ whole career was exploring the idea that nothing is off limits if you phrase it right).

@mossygreen – I’m obviously a Mel Brooks fan, and I take your point - but I think that while Lenny Bruce’ whole career (and Andy Kaufman’s, many others) was exploring the idea that NOTHING is off limits - period - Mel Brooks’ used “off-color” jokes and innuendo to present moral positions. There’s a lot of cynicism in Brooks’ work, but self-deprecation too - even in something like Life Stinks it’s not nihilism - there’s a firm morality that underpins his ideas, even as he presents his heroes as foolish and flawed - but with an awareness of their own shortcomings that the villains lack. That’s really what I’m driving at when I talk about “open-mindedness” below.

@aetris I get what you’re saying, and don’t disagree, but I also firmly believe that not all ideas deserve equal footing and worry that the internet amplifies stuff far beyond what would/should naturally be the boundary. It’s also true that no one person or group should have the authority to decide which ideas are acceptable and in what form. It’s all just a mess.

@mossygreen - To me this is an EXTREMELY interesting and valuable mess to poke around in.

I certainly don’t disagree that not all ideas deserve equal footing or that the internet amplifies stuff into negative territory. However, different ideas are important to different people, and the internet is simply amplifying long-standing issues of communication. Communication can bring people together or drive them apart, depending on how it’s used.

Obviously, I think that attempts to shame people drive people apart, even though that isn’t what the intention is. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with saying that you find particular images offensive, or that you relate them to bad experiences, that’s important and should help connect you with sympathizers. But using shame to do that is going to get you pushback for a variety of reasons. That’s not necessarily bad, but I do think it’s going to create needless division. However it does make people think about the issue of shaming, which I think is an important topic to discuss…

@tinamarie1974 - Congratulations on your superior sensitivity.

@aetris uummm what? Not what I meant. Actually wish I didn’t have it.

@tinamarie1974 - I wouldn’t assume that people who disagree with you don’t have the right headspace to be sensitive. They may see the issue in a different context.

@aetris actually jrn literally said he did not and I referenced his statement. Not sure why this is an issue

I am also happy to report that abused people (men + women) are in the minority. It is estimated that about 30% of women and 10% of men are/have been abused. This would mean that most people have not experienced abuse and may not fully understand the repercussions of this type of relationship. That is all I am saying

@tinamarie1974 - It happens to be a very interesting issue to me, but I don’t want to drag anyone into anything they’re uninterested in.

For a long time now, I’ve been dismayed by the regurgitation of issues I’d hoped were long settled, or at least more generally understood. One of the most disturbing ones is the contest between people whose minds are open on a topic, and folks who… Let’s say, have reached a particular conclusion. It’s natural for the folks who’ve reached a conclusion to assume that they’re right, and that people whose minds are still open on a topic are simply ignorant or uninformed. However I think that’s a very dangerous conclusion, regardless of what reasons have brought the folks to their particular conclusion. IMHO, maintaining an open mind is not a matter of lacking the headspace to be sensitive. But I have to admit, I have come to the conclusion that maintaining an open mind IS having the headspace to be sensitive - which certainly isn’t always right.

Still, I often find myself thinking of Yeats’ old poem, The Second Coming :

The best lack all conviction,
While the worst are full of a passionate intensity.

@aetris and being opened minded is a great thing. I work in an international environment and must be open to different ideas, points of view, cultures, etc on a daily basis.

That said being open minded is different from having actually experienced something. You can have empathy for a person or their situation, but you cannot fully understand what that person is dealing with without having experienced something similar.

Example: You can be open minded and empathetic about a pregnant woman and what she has to deal with over the nine months. But does one understand the trials and tribulations of pregnancy without experiencing it?

As someone who has never been pregnant, I am willing to admit I do not truly understand the mental and physical challenges a pregnant woman has endured.

@tinamarie1974 - Experience is… Well, I won’t say “a great thing” with THESE examples, but it certainly offers some important perspectives. But I would say it’s a mistake to assume that people who don’t see things your way are lacking experience - or that experience in some areas necessarily outweighs experience in others.

Still, I’ve always liked the saying:

In theory, practice and theory are the same - but in practice they’re different.

@aetris I don’t think I shamed anyone for not seeing things my way?? I simply reiterated jrn’s sentiment that folks may not have the same perspective, and that is true.

Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one. And how boring would the world be if we all agreed all the time

@tinamarie1974 - Well I agree with THAT!

@tinamarie1974

I don’t think I shamed anyone for not seeing things my way??

Having just read this thread I don’t see that you did/said anything wrong. Not sure why there is an issue with what you said.

@Kidsandliz thanks! Was just sharing my opinion

@Kidsandliz @tinamarie1974 -

I don’t see that you did/said anything wrong.

Can we agree that you do not have the right headspace to be sensitive to the topic?

@aetris @Kidsandliz only if we can agree that you were closed minded to the fact that my opinion can and will be different than yours, since I NEVER made any sweeping statements about the entire Meh community.

Not sure why you are falling on your sword regarding this topic, but you need to let it go

/giphy elsa let it go

@Kidsandliz @tinamarie1974 - You know I LOVE YOU, and I don’t want you to feel belittled or ashamed of yourself IN ANY WAY - which of course goes for @CaptAmehrican too: thank you for a wonderful, fruitful discussion, that is helping me articulate many ideas which, frankly, had gotten more than a little rusty from resting in an attitude of comfortable assumption for evidently way too long.

I was of course as surprised as anybody to hear @therealjrn declare that he was willing to do some more thinking about a topic, and all I can say is that I wish that sort of attitude could be encouraged, rather than made to seem… lacking in understanding? It seems to me that once upon a time being willing to reconsider a previously fixed position was a virtue, rather than a weakness. Also, it seems to me to be a pretty tough thing to achieve in the best of times, let alone times when some folks seem to be working hard to get us all lined up one one side of an issue or the other.

But maybe I’m too sensitive on the topic?

@aetris ??? Maybe I am naive but I saw (looking that this entire thread) that some people objected to the valentines due to the pictures of domestic violence and didn’t find them funny or appropriate. That is their right. You don’t have to agree with them. That is your right. All you needed to say was you liked the valentines/thought they were funny rather than attack those who didn’t.

@Kidsandliz - Interesting! So, do you feel “attacked” if someone says “you should be ashamed of yourself”, or that you “do not have the right headspace to be sensitive to the topic” ?

I DIDN’T particularly like the valentines OR think they were funny, I just DON’T think it’s appropriate for anyone to be shamed for expressing something that someone else chooses to use as a platform for a different topic, however important.

I do object to domestic violence, and don’t find pro wrestling to be funny or appropriate generally. What I think is a lot worse, though, is twisting someone else’s words to inflame outrage. I see that as something worse than a mere attack on free expression.

You don’t have to agree with me - that is your right. In fact, it’s great, and I’m getting a lot out of this discussion.

@aetris I do think telling someone you don’t know, making a judgement about their “headspace”, and then telling them it isn’t the right one is an attack. Just talk about the valentines. That was what this thread was about to begin with - valentines showing domestic violence and how some people didn’t think that was appropriate.

@Kidsandliz thank you. @aetris I do not recall ever making any statements regarding your specific headspace. I do not know you, nor your situation. I would never make that assumption.

What I reiterated, was that MOST folks do not have the correct headspace, and I stand by my statement.

It is simple empathy vs sympathy. I have already told you that it is estimated that 3 in 10 women and 1 in 10 men have been abused in some way. Knowing this, a MINORITY ( thank god) of the population can sympathize and would be extremely sensitive to the topic at a mental and physical level. These folks have experienced trauma that affect them on a personal level. The MAJORITY can empathize, but may not truly understand or think about this topic the same way because they have not experienced the trauma. That is statistics and psychology, not my opinion.

Here is my other issue. One person created this topic, another admitted they may not have the right perspective to understand clearly and a third agreed the vday cards were distasteful. Then there is me, I agreed and stated that I initially said nothing because I can be sensitive about the topic - because I am a statistic. For some reason you latched on to me trying to shame me alone for my thoughts and feelings. Sorry, I am entitled to my thoughts and feelings and they are shaped by my experiences. The cards are well intended, but distasteful.

Please just move along. Not sure what your issue is with my opinion (choosing to ignore others) of why the cards are inappropriate, but I don’t care.

@Kidsandliz @tinamarie1974 - I’m not trying to shame anyone, and I hope no one feels shamed by the topic - I just happen to think that shaming is an important topic. I’m not saying you don’t - but if you don’t want to discuss it, I hope you don’t mind if I do?

@aetris @Kidsandliz realize that you were whether you meant to or not.

If you disagree with the topic, it is your right to post your opinion, that is the point of this community; we post our thoughts and opinions, sometimes helping others see a different point if view. It is not your right to attempt to shame someone because they do not agree with your core beliefs.

In this case we are diametrically opposed and will not agree. So for a third time I will ask you to leave me alone and feel free to discuss directly with the community at large.

@tinamarie1974 - Sorry! I know what that’s like, having been wrong many times myself.

@aetris
Aetris you sound like a overgrown child who just likes to hear yourself talk! Let a dead horse lie for goodness sakes!

@aetris
…and tinamarie was not wrong about anything! You big bully!! I hear guys try to over compensate when they have a small one. Jus sayen…

@Lynnerizer - Shall we agree that some people do not have the right headspace to be sensitive to the topic?

@aetris @Lynnerizer he was being a bully and forcing his agenda. I never singled anyone out, I was simply sharing my thoughts and supporting @captamehrican in her post. Apparently that was an issue. God forbid I enjoy my freedom of speech. Yup, just checked I am still a citizen of the United States of America.

Clearly there are folks on here that are not comfortable when others disagree with them.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

God forbid I enjoy my freedom of speech.

@tinamarie1974 - Oooh, NOW you’re getting personal! By all means share your thoughts - you surely can’t object if I repeat them?

Once again, I’m not trying to shame anyone, neither because they do not agree with my beliefs - nor because they’re trying to shame someone. I have a problem, though, in the use of shame generally - and particularly when it’s used to dictate content. I’ll decide what to pay attention to, and how.

If you’re upset, I sympathize - If you think that your feelings should dictate what I can see on the internet - I’m going to disagree.

@aetris That is not what @tinamarie1974 said.

@aetris it is not what I said and you are being rude. I simply shared my opinion and you were immediately personal.

In case you forgot here is your response.

@tinamarie1974 - Congratulations on your superior sensitivity.

Read the thread. I shared my opinion, quoted facts and statistics. You, not so much. For some reason this has been a personal vendetta of yours.

I have an opinion and it differs from yours. Too bad, that is how it goes.

@Kidsandliz - This is an EXTREMELY important issue to me - and I can’t help but think that if it was not important to you, you wouldn’t still be talking about it.

@CaptAmehrican was the one who said “you should be ashamed . Please take it down”, so yes, my main beef is with her. I STRONGLY believe that
no one should be ashamed of expressing controversial opinions in any form - and certainly shouldn’t be shamed into suppressing content. I can decide what I want to see, and controversy should be the beginning of a discussion, not the end of it.

@tinamarie1974 said a couple of things - including that “it is not your right to attempt to shame someone because they do not agree with your core beliefs.” She went on to say that “we are diametrically opposed and will not agree.” That interests me for a variety of reasons. I am very opposed to shaming, which I believe has all kinds of durable negative effects. But I DO believe that it is everyone’s right to attempt to shame someone for any reason, because that’s as much freedom of speech as anything. The problem is that shame IS sometimes successful in dictating content, and that’s not something I can accept.

I’m very concerned that instead of coming through the sixties and seventies with a deepened understanding of these issues, and an openness to discussing the most painful subjects, we’ve been backsliding into a hypocritical intolerance that is incapable of seeing itself - and is facilitating more of the same.

This is a little depressing, but this discussion is helping me articulate my concerns - so @tinamarie1974, please continue to enjoy your freedom of speech - I am enjoying it very much, in a way.

@aetris @CaptAmehrican @Kidsandliz Since you do not know me IRL, please do not try to articulate what is important to me. I am more than capable of sharing my own thoughts and feelings.

What is important in this thread, is that I do not allow bullies to push me around. You are clearly being a bully, you are targeting me even though you just stated your issue is with someone else.

If this topic is important, feel free to tell everyone why and quit hiding behind quotes from others. Also, point your responses to those who have actually upset you.

Realize I am here simply for entertainment and have no need to push my agenda (read shove it down everyone’s throat)., clearly there are many topics where we do not agree.

@tinamarie1974 - I think the topic we disagree about is actually part of something very, very big - something that is driving a range of agendas, from the current and past Presidential elections to a resurgent Russia.

So I’m going to continue to poke around in it. Please don’t feel it has anything to do with you.

@aetris I knew this was political…and I want NOTHING to do with it. Have fun just untag me

@aetris you have gone off topic. If you would like to rant about politics or speech please start your own thread.
If you impinge on my ability to say something is shameful then that is impingement of my freedom of speech. I get that you and I disagree here but you are being very unpleasant about it. I understand that my and others freedom to speech is in your view less important when we disagree with you. Please start a different thread for your political rants. Thank you.

@CaptAmehrican - Your topic is shame, and I’m interested in that topic. Telling people they should be ashamed and shut up is certainly political - so I think we’re in the right topic here.

@CaptAmehrican - I’ll tell you what - we won’t change the subject, but let’s move it over, slightly. A long time ago, I was in a relationship with someone who was bipolar, but had not yet been diagnosed. I don’t recall them actually striking me (although the sex was pretty exciting sometimes) but one time they jabbed one of those long-bladed tailor scissors into the wall next to my head. It was a very difficult relationship for me, not just because there were highs and lows, but because I thought I was somehow responsible for their emotions. It took a while, but I finally realized that what was going on with them had nothing to do with me - their emotions were driven by issues that were medical, way beyond my control. It was a liberating feeling, but then I felt that I was somehow obligated to take care of them - and it took me a while (in other words, a couple breakup cycles) to realize that wasn’t the right basis for a relationship.

@chienfou I think we can all agree that the French is execrable.

@callow
One of my favorite sayings!!

@callow what they demonstrated and drew was one figure slaming a chair against another figure and saying in French “i love my chair”
It is not a mis interpretation to take that as approval of hitting ones partner with a chair. It is not an appropriate Valentine’s day card.

@callow @CaptAmehrican It showed two professional wrestlers in a ring, You made an assumption about them being partners.

@callow @CaptAmehrican
I would just like to say that I don’t believe that these are actually intended to be appropriate.
That they are wildly inappropriate is the joke.
Some people don’t find that kind of humor funny, especially when the topic hits a nerve.

@callow @sammydog01 this card by itself actually doesn’t show anything to make you think pro wrestling. There is no ring. That is your assumption. The partners you are right i am assuming that from Valentine’s card

@callow @CaptAmehrican @sammydog01 I am sympathetic to your position, but there are several aspects of the image that indicate pro-wrestling.

Both figures are shirtless, wearing tights and boots. Most male pro wrestlers wear some variant of this uniform.

Both figures have well-defined muscular, masculine arms. Again, pretty standard in pro-wrestling, but not particularly common in what I would expect in heteronormative relationships between anthropomorphic hearts.

Finally, the chair itself. As previously mentioned, using a steel folding chair as a weapon is a classic wrestling trope. Pro wrestling is, in fact, the only context in which I have seen a folding chair used as a weapon.

I have not watched wrestling in probably twenty years, and I never watched it much, but I picked up on all of these things. I can see how you would not. But I can also see how a lot of people could look at the picture, get the joke, and it would never enter their mind that it could be taken a different way.

@Limewater

Pro wrestling is, in fact, the only context in which I have seen a folding chair used as a weapon.

And college basketball. Right @Barney?

@Limewater @sammydog01 He was only protecting himself and maybe he was going to take out half the opposing team. But I think 12 games was a fair enough suspension.

@zinimusprime i am one of the locals. A former goat even.

@CaptAmehrican You’re not a local if you get voted off the island.

@medz

@CaptAmehrican

/giphy gold star

@CaptAmehrican @tinamarie1974
Awww… So sweet!