Make Some Major Life Decisions for Me, You Crazy M
10…otherfuckers, please!
As has occasionally been the case, some thread has appeared here at EXACTLY the right time for me, in this case @Tonyjar 's I Want A Luxury Car topic (how’s that going, @Tonyjar?) It just so happens that a week or so before it was posted my bossy little brother had managed to get a psychologist to declare that my father probably shouldn’t be driving anymore (happy 97th birthday, Pop!?!) Anyhoo that make’s ME Dad’s uber, and with firm control of the titles to two aging Chryslers I am thinking it’s time for something completely different.
DECISION 1 - A CAR
The short list is currently comprised of :
A : a Honda Odyssey
B : a Hyundai Equus Ultimate (thanks for the tip @narfcake , but rare as hen’s teeth around here and they go fast, I mean sale-wise)
C : a Toyota Avalon (tip of the cap to @RedOak)
I’m talking used, as money is at least a subject if not a definite object (let’s say under $15k if at all possible?) Other criteria are mainly passenger seating that would be easy to get in and out of and comfortable for an old guy with aches and pains - and hopefully my father would like it too. Of course I will probably be driving, and have had no trouble backing even when I had a minivan some years back. A decent sound system would be nice but Pop favors organ music and without a dedicated subwoofer I dunno. My regular commute is less than 10 minutes each way but I’m thinking that maybe it’s time to stop driving like a maniac; even so it’s unlikely it’d be exceeding a quarter hour by much. If it could somehow charm the female of the species into getting behind the wheel that would also be nice. Any tips on buying? How used is TOO used? I’m thinking dealership - opinions?
Upcoming decisions:
DECISION 2 - A HOUSE
DECISION 3 - THE DOG’S BREAKFAST
DECISION 4 - DECISION 4
- 13 comments, 45 replies
- Comment
I’ve had luck with private sellers over dealers…but I’ve never shopped for a “specific” brand car. I’ve just lucked into some deals that worked out. My credit union sponsors used cars from a rental company. Maybe Sam’s or Costco do too although that might just be new cars.
@therealjrn I believe that Costco offers new and used car buying assistance. I have not used the service myself. (I bought a used car from someone at work. So far, it has been okay.)
@cf1 It might just be new cars. I knew they both had car programs. I saw a BEAUTIFUL 2020 Lincoln Nautilus for just $48K and change yesterday at Costco. The sticker said I would be saving $2,480 from buying it at Costco.
I’m guessing that your dad is a little too old and a little too frail for you to want him to go around Ubering by himself?
By the way, if he’s 97, and he’s as active as you suggest, that’s incredible and wonderful
@f00l - It is certainly wonderful in many ways. Apparently it helps to be incredibly stubborn, a little rude, and convinced that things haven’t REALLY changed since 1965.
@aetris
For a few stubborn holdouts, things have not changed since 1966.
All that change that some people think has happened: it’s just a bunch of people having active imaginations and being silly; right?
I might be related to some of these folk.
I got an Odyssey when my second child was born. And another Odyssey when the first one wore out. And the second one just wore out and I traded that bitch in on a CRV. FREEDOM! And my husband drives an Avalon.
The Odyssey is a fine minivan if you need either a lot of cargo space or a ton of passengers. I was looking for something more maneuverable with better gas mileage. That may not be important to you if you don’t put a lot of miles on it.
You might take a look at small SUVs like the CRV- they ride a bit higher and the seat is closer to ass level. My father-in-law switched to a small SUV for that exact reason.
My parents didn’t have much trouble with my Odyssey either.
Just make sure you pay special attention to getting out of the car- I think the Avalon is lower and may be more difficult.
@sammydog01 - Gas mileage is not unimportant - my daily commute is about 12 miles each way - but I thought mivans did better than SUVs. The Odyssey is supposed to get particularly good highway mileage, and a good part of my commute is on a highway.
Hem! You say your first Odyssey WORE OUT???
@aetris My CRV was over 30 mpg on my road trip and is doing almost 29 in town. SUVs have changed. Maybe minivans have too.
They both got to the point where stuff was breaking regularly. They both had well over 150,000 miles on them as well. The last one was 170,000. They were both fully functional when we traded them in but who knows when something like the transmission would go.
I wanted an SUV instead of a sedan because my dog, Princess Puke, needs to ride in a crate and not on a seat.
@sammydog01 - Yes, that’s another consideration - my dog likes jump up and down in my lap and knows how to operate power windows. Of course, I guess I’m not likely to find a car with crank windows, unless I go VERY used.
@aetris @sammydog01
How darling!
@aetris @therealjrn We call her Cora to her face. Please don’t tell.
@aetris @sammydog01 A harness for your dog is a good idea for her safety in a crash. Also keeps her in the car.
@aetris @sammydog01 @therealjrn I was wondering if you called her PP to her face. Cora is probably better for her self esteem. You know if dogs could speak English.
The cat just finally curls in my lap on moves. No reason to take them on vacation just pore more food. I suppose that would be a disatourous crash/ airbag deployment
@aetris @sammydog01 @unksol
@aetris @sammydog01 @therealjrn that would be ok. I was thinking more of a surprised cat being violently launched at your face. While your face is being launched at the cat. I think it ends with no faces.
@aetris @therealjrn @unksol
Could you say Princess Puke to this face?
The vet recommended the crate mostly to keep her from being a projectile and killing a passenger if we had an accident. Plus they supposedly get less carsick if they’re restrained. She has a better view out of the windows in the new car- I think it’s helping.
@sammydog01 - Awww.
@aetris @sammydog01 @therealjrn totally makes sense. You travel with dogs. You just move with cats. Just making a joke. And yes I would say princess puke in a baby voice to her face. You don’t wanna here what I call the vicious monster’s that live with me.
Don’t ask this lot, ask the lunatics over on Jalopnik!
(OK, I’m one of those lunatics.)
https://jalopnik.com/c/what-car-should-you-buy
Here’s the submission page:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd7AK82Sjg8O2EaIpmnWeW3NHu3kM79-Ln-S07WD3FG62u8bw/viewform
Thanks @blaineg - working my way through the site. All over the place but a couple somewhat applicable postings so far.
The Odyssey is a fine minivan. We just retired my dad’s 10+ yr old Odyssey for the same reason you just did. Dad’s 85.
Have you thought about a Tesla and autopilot? In few years, it can drive you and your dad while you nap.
@mike808 - Tesla and autopilot - for $15k?
@aetris Missed the part about your budget.
I think there is a scapegoat to blame.
@aetris Don’t worry tris. @mike808 will be back shortly with an informative post with links and important sounding advice as soon as he can google it.
Looking just at the how old is too old issue: I had a grand caravan last for 25 years and 3 mo so even trash vehicles can last a long time if you take care of them. I then bought a used 10 year old car, it has been taken care of (it only died because a truck without a rear bumper backed over it and in the 3 years I had it I basically only had to do routine things. It had over 208,000 miles on it and would have lasted a lot longer. My current one was bought at 9 years (now 10 years old), and has 122,500 miles on it. It is going strong engine wise.
Looking at the mobility issue: My father was disabled and found the grand caravan pretty easy to get in and out of, along with my sister’s Toyota minivan (seat was a bit lower). The key is having the seat high enough and enough places for them to grab around waist high. Also see what the door does when it is open. See how much it wobbles when they hang on to it hard as that affects balance. Also having a vehicle with not a ton of clearance between the ground and the foot area of the car. I can be hard for older people to lift their legs high enough to get their feet in.
Another issue is the fabric the seats are made out of. The fabric ones are harder for them to slide in and out on. You can cut open one of those plastic reusable plastic bags and cover the seat (leave 2 sides of the bag attched so it can sit with the edge over the front and the driver side of the seat - that will keep it in place when they slide to put their feet on the ground or spin their hips to get their legs in).
Another key with buying a used car (and I bought from a private seller and from a used car place), as you are probably well aware, is having a shop you trust check it out. It cost me around $80 a vehicle to do that. Good thing I did as several nice looking ones had thousands of dollars of work that needed done (and that includes one from a reputable used place). Looking at carfax ruled out a couple for me as well (many owners, been in an accident, crossed state lines to be sold and flushed through a state where it is legal to change a title to show it wasn’t totaled out, came from a state at a time when there had been major flooding…).
In favor of a mini van is if you have to bring walkers, wheeled walkers, wheel chairs, etc. with you for your father (now or later). Then you don’t have to fold everything up to get it in. And you have room for other junk at the same time.
For that little bit of driving, I’d go with a fully electric car. The sweet spot is the Nissan Leaf from 2015-2016. Just about zero maintenance. No oil changes. No gas station visits. Nissan really wants the Leaf to do well, so they soundproof them above their pay-grade, making them feel far more expensive than they are as you drive. And most importantly, because the tech advances so quickly on these, their price plummets on the used market. From almost 30k brand-new, you can find them off-lease around here for about 10-15k depending on mileage and features. I’d go with the SL version, it’s leather and has a better charging system. I test drove one about a year ago and if it weren’t for the fact that we need to go 150 miles one-way every so often, I was totally going for it.
If you can’t stand the looks of the Leaf, the Volkswagen e-Golf looks more normal, but is a pinch pricier.
Carvana sells off-lease cars nationwide for decent prices. I can’t ever see myself buying a brand-new car again (bought a 2006 Odyssey once), and having purchased my last couple cars at these offlease online places (Offleaseonly, Vroom, almost Carvana), I’ve been telling anyone who will listen not to go any other route for used either. HTH
@jester747 the leaf really depends on where you live. They passive cool their battery which causes a lot of problems with battery life in the south.
There is a sale on on the bolt if looking for all electric. The volt was better but they killed that
A dealership is not a particularly good place to buy used - I would say no more trustworthy than your average private seller, and more expensive.
If they have the car you are looking for, great, no need to avoid a dealership. Just not where I would start. And more expensive.
Biggest thing is to spend $100 or so having your mechanic check it out. Necessary part of used car buying.
@bdb - It’s my understanding you have to be careful about buying from private sellers, because supposedly unscrupulous dealers can lay off lemons by making it look like a private sale. I only bought from a private owner once - and had the vehicle checked out by my mechanic, which I agree is an absolute. While it wasn’t a bad experience there were a lot of little things that weren’t right but that were outside my mechanic’s province - the CD player and some missing or broken internal things. You have to be careful no matter what, but the issue of selection is also there.
You also asked about how old is too old. My theory is that modern cars can go until the engine dies, which is typically around 250,000 miles, unless they are killed by rust. Not the doors or fenders - rust on the body and frame - non cosmetic stuff.
Otherwise, you just plan to pour money into it for maintenance. I personally figure $1000 - $2000 a year, and still come out ahead of a new car.
@bdb this is definitely true in my experience IF YOU HAVE THE TIME. And sometimes the experience. I would bet those old Chrysler’s don’t have a ton of miles and I might stick with one of them. But at the same time if you’re becoming someone’s primary caretaker… You might just not have the time to deal with any car break down.
@unksol - You’re right about the one car anyway - but yes it’s got some rust, has some odd paint issues, and placement of the battery has been giving me some major pains. Anyway I’d like Pop to have a more plush ride - me too…
@aetris It’s in the wheel well, right? 300M, Sebring, or 200?
@aetris I’ve never asked an auto parts store to do this but they usually will replace the battery for you when you buy one. Even Walmart does. I normally do it myself but Id bet you could find a place that would even if it’s in a weird spot.
@narfcake - correct, Sebring. And an Avenger, which has it inside the front fender…
@unksol Yeah, that’s not happening for free – not when the first step is to lift the vehicle and remove the wheel.
@aetris
@narfcake - Thanks, I needed that!
Or my WALLET did…
No question. Look at all that passenger space!
@InnocuousFarmer - Pop DOES favor made in America…
With $15k small SUVs may work well. Easy to get in and out of and have space for your dog. Honda’s CRV & Toyota’s RAV4 are good choices. Toyota’s have a smoother ride. CRVs have more of a truck like ride.
OK, so thanks @bookerttt and EVERYbody because all this info is GREAT but I have to admit - I have always had this prejudice against SUVs - I always thought of them as the mall ninjas of the vehicle world - yes they’re at the same seat height as minivans, but - well, it’s interesting to hear that gas mileage has come a long way, but… aren’t they’re just light trucks with attitude? Minivans have the cargo space, eh? What am I missing?
@aetris @bookerttt I’m not sure it’s not just a new name for a hatchback. You can get a CRV without all wheel drive. Take one for a test drive- it’s free.
@aetris @bookerttt towing. That’s basically it. If you just were worried about capacity to haul say plywood or just stuff. Stow and go seating will do it in a minivan
If you want to tow or have headroom to rent large machines. You need a truck/SUV. If you can only afford one car/need the seating room. Plus the towing capacity…
Of course you could always rent one or the other
@aetris @bookerttt and you used to be able to get a V8 station wagon for that role.
@aetris @bookerttt @unksol If my quick search is correct the Odyssey tows 3500 lbs and the CRV tows 1500. The term SUV is misleading.
@aetris @bookerttt @sammydog01 also true. I meant a real SUV based on a truck frame.
Buying from a (trusted and well rated) dealer can make sense as long as you know the comparable private market prices (easy to check on a smartphone) so you are aware of the premium you pay. That premium gets you an ongoing business who wants to maintain their reputation standing behind that car.
Buying private might save some $ but it frought with financial transaction and trust issues. Do not do it if you do not also have a trusted mechanic checking out the car if that is not your thing.
Do not buy any $15,000 used car without seeing the Carfax report - something that is pretty much automatic in our market. This can reveal a wealth of info, not simply accident history, but whether it was totalled for flood or hail damage, the maintenance history, etc…
@RedOak Also keep in mind that the Carfax reports are often incomplete - I’ve seen it a couple times when close inspection reveals some well-disguised frame or body damage that could only come from an accident. If repairs were done outside of the insurance claim world (many times people will just handle incidents through cash transactions to avoid getting their premiums raised), and repairs wre not done at a dealership, that info often never gets to Carfax.
A complete inspection from a trusted mechanic is essential.
@stolicat yep. But a Carfax is a basic requirement. Insurance companies paying out on a total loss like a flood car will show up. And flood damage can be very well hidden.
If you’re thinking of buying a used car and not qualified yourself to spot body repairs or not having a qualified mechanic evaluate, you’re a gambler.
As to the Odyssey & Avalon thing -
We still own our first Odyssey (2nd gen - first real minivan from Honda) it has 150,000 miles and has migrated to the lots of sheet metal, protection vault vehicle for the new drivers at our house.
After 110,000 miles it started to beg for some regular repair money. But my brother had an identical Odyssey, bought at the same time, and it finally died with 250,000 miles on it and no more than routine maintenance.
We also own a 4th gen Odyssey, now with 110,000 miles on it. It looks and drives like brand new.
I would avoid the 5th gen Odyssey - lots of niggling issues. Very sad. But it is out of your budget range anyway.
If you can find a clean 3rd gen (2005-2010) or 4th gen (2011-2018) Odyssey - both are solid.
I mentioned that Avalon in the other thread because it is a sleeper, and usually the first owner is not hard on the car. A friend has one with all the luxuries and over 150,000 miles - it simply won’t die.
The Honda CRV (and competing Toyota RAV4) might also be a good match but the crazy high residual values make it really tough to find deals.
A general future maintenance savings tip: know whether the used vehicle you are buying has a timing belt or a timing chain. Chains can go forever. Timing belts need to be replaced every 100,000 miles at $800-1,400. You don’t want to buy a car that will soon need it unless it is discounted.
After decades of owning vehicles, I’ve learned a lesson in how to help a vehicle last: Drive it easy. Driving a vehicle hard also accelerates its aging curve more than anything else. And driving it easy pays off big in fuel savings.
If you’re looking at those very different vehicles it sounds like you need to first determine the functionality you really need.
If you also have to haul a lot of stuff, it is amazing how much fits in an Odyssey, even with only the third row folded. Also, the step in height of an Odyssey is pretty low vs most SUVs. And the door openings are wide for easy access by older folks. And the seats, even the middle row can’t be beat by any other minivan for upright comfort. Our family has found the Odyssey to be older-folks friendly.
Sedans like the Avalon might be cushy and comfortable, but evaluate how easy egress access is for an older person.
@RedOak -
Functionality is kind of a tricky question. Pop was on a walker last month but has now stopped even using the cane, although he’s a little wobbly. I’m not sure how much is pure cussedness defying reality, but he has never complained about getting in or out of a car. Nevertheless I was thinking minivan mostly for the reasons @kidsandliz mentioned above. The Ultimate has a power-assisted rear passenger door, which sounded kind of nice. Otherwise I was just thinking plush-at-reasonable-price.
If I get around to posing decision #2, it involves the likelihood of frequent 2-hour drives on major highways, probably in heavy traffic in the summer…
@RedOak I’m going to agree on timing chains. You’ll do them once if ever and you’re probably wrong. Belts are more annoying
@unksol I’m not an automotive engineer but the challenge with timing belts is most modern engines are what is termed “interference” designs in the combustion chamber.
That means if the timing belt or chain breaks, it is almost guaranteed the engine will have catastrophic damage. The valves in a “interference” design engine will collide with the pistons when the belt/chain breaks.
In a “non-interference” design, the maximum travel of the valves and pistons is such that they cannot collide. So a belt/chain break is less likely to cause catastrophic damage.
Guessing the close tolerances of an “interference” design engine are driven by efficiency and emissions objectives… or auto companies would be more likely to design combustion chambers as “non-interference” as was the case with older designs.
@RedOak yes that’s the main issue. It’s just with a chain it takes a lot to stretch and it’s going to let you know it’s coming before it breaks. With a belt you def want to stick to the maintenance windows and keep an eye on it for exactly that reason.
@RedOak @unksol Timing chain issues are usually less with the chain itself and more about the items around it, like the tensioners.
https://jalopnik.com/here-s-why-the-v8-audi-s4-is-an-awful-used-car-1676466510
@narfcake @RedOak I would never pay 13K for a used car but yeah you are correct the tensioner could go. And if it did it would be disasterouus. But a belt has one too. It’s just more likely to fail.
@narfcake @RedOak and omg I would never want to own an Audi of this design.