Lets build something

@garyhgaryh Already ordered? Wow, you didn't even hesitate. LOL! I don't know anything about the CC3D FC. Before I jump in I'll have to read up on that one for a minute. I would like something that will acommidate a GPS and magnetometer upgrade.

@garyhgaryh Is it your plan to use your F12e? Or are you going to go with a simple dedicated radio system?

@ruouttaurmind I typed this long replied on my phone and I touched outside the reply box and lost the contents ugh.. hate that...

@ruouttaurmind Yes, I'm going to use the f12e. I bought the kit above because it was such a good value. Originally I was going to wait for a group consensus as I'm sure there are better kits out there and I can learn from the exchange of which one everyone thinks it's better, but I decided to just get started asap. If we all build a 250 size quad, it'll probably be similiar. The basic building blocks are the same. To me this is a throw away quad. All I need is remote, lipo, and battery charger and strap which I have, I can put my f450 project on hold because my p1 will hold me over.

@ruouttaurmind I also need to add a camera and vtx for fpv. The f12e has the vrx. I'll get a cheap 200mw vtx and a cheap camera.

@garyhgaryh I think the biggest hurdle will be calibrating and fine tuning the configuration in the FC. I think what I'll do is shop out the stuff I want to work with, then start with a CC3D flight controller. After that's all set up and working and I've learned all I can from playing with the CC3D, I'll replace it with an APM or NAZE32 with GPS and compass.

@ruouttaurmind I'm thinking along similar lines. Upgrade to the NAZA for GPS. Goes APM or NAZE32 support GPS/compass?

@garyhgaryh APM is the FC I have in the Nova and CX-20. The Tali is based on the APM opensource software. They all have GPS and compass. Implementation on APM is plug-n-play for both compass and GPS. NAZE32 also supports them, but I have no idea what's involved in implementation. CC3D supports GPS, but only in a superficial mannor (only for telem, not for nav or auto-pilot missions).

@ruouttaurmind Then I may upgrade to the naze32 or APM. It's $19 or so (at least for the NAZE32), but I'll worry about that later.

@garyhgaryh Agreed. The CC3D FC is cheap, so using it for a build so we can compare notes, then replacing later on won't give me any heartburn.

@garyhgaryh I just tried to order the same kit from AliExpress. There was a note on the page that said "sign up and receive $5 coupon". I did the signup and verification. The product page says "you now have a $5 coupon, don't forget to use it" but when I go to checkout it says "you have no coupons". I've never done business with AliExpress, but already my bullshit meter is quivering.

Ok, now the coupon is showing up. I've got to spend $100 with that seller's store to get the $5 off. I'll shop it out and see if there's anything else I need for $15 to get my $5 discount.

@ruouttaurmind Yes, I ran into the same problem. If you click at the top, there is a "my coupon" menu item, but it's only good if you spend over $100 so I ended up not using the $5. I really think this kit is a good deal and if you could get one, we can def work on this together in such a way for support, but it should be an easy build. I'm thinking about buying a servo tester.

@ruouttaurmind Oh I see you discovered that you have to spend $100 - lol. I should have been more patient and looked for something else. Let me know if you ordered it.

@ruouttaurmind My kit has shipped! Yeah!

@DJMajickMan I'm excited as you about your groupon quad. Please let us know what you get.

@fultonmartin That's not a bad price. My plan is to spend as little as possible outside the $85 for this project. I don't even need to set up fpv, but I think I will since I bought the skyzone goggles. Oh wait, i just realize the skyzone kit has a camera a vtx (3d) so I'm set.

@garyhgaryh I finally got around to messing with my cheap Chinese Boscam clone last weekend. Worked like a charm. Hooked it up to an old VCR and watched TV on the F12e for a bit (just for fun). $15.72 on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/251718152938

@ruouttaurmind wow, if I need one I'll be ordering one of those! I'm going for value rather than name brand now-a-days...

@garyhgaryh Looks very promising. I noted that review was posted only two days ago so it's very current.

@garyhgaryh His first first build video is up, placing here for reference:

@djslack Thanks..

@djslack @garyhgaryh Thanks for the videos. I might try this. This guy makes great videos!

Next video:

@djslack Thanks I didn't see part 3!

@ruouttaurmind Thanks! With the both of us working on it I'm sure we can figure these things out.

Ok, damage is done. I ordered the RX601 and XT60 connectors. Now the waiting begins...

@ruouttaurmind nice find! I wonder how much a difference the 2204 2300kv has over the 1894 2400kv motor?

@garyhgaryh The seller doesn't publish enough data on either to make an accurate assessment, but based on comparison among a variety of manufacturer's data, it looks like the 2204 has a few more stator windings, and a larger stator/rotor assembly which should deliver about 15-20% more torque. Hopefully I'll be able to upgrade to a 6" prop and the added thrust will give me better lift on the heavier EDIT: heavier battery not heavier motor. What I hope does NOT happen: I don't want it to be "zippier". I don't want a superfast flier like those in the video @snapster posted a couple weeks ago. Flying like that isn't much fun for me.

@ruouttaurmind nice find. U get a dedicated 5v rail.

@garyhgaryh Ya, for about the same cost as a BEC it ads a few different locations for 5v, and clean, convenient location for ESC connections.

@ruouttaurmind until you decide to add retractable legs ;) and rocket launchers lol

@DJMajickMan Rocket? Launchers? Oooohhhhh....... In for one!

@ruouttaurmind I ordered a cheap servo tester for this project :). can't wait.. was thinking about it today on the drive home.

@ruouttaurmind I'm really tempted to follow in your footsteps here with the same kit... Kinda been thinking about an fpv racer on a budget. Of course the goggles really kind of take the budget angle back out of it, but it looks like a lot of fun.

@djslack I'm not going to have FPV on it. At least at first. For me it's basically a fun project that can grow with me if I decide to go that route. I can always add FPV later if I want. You ought to grab one and build along with Gary and I. Less than a hundred bucks and all you need in addition is a radio setup of some kind (TX and RX). You can have that for under $50 for a cheap one, or under $100 for a fairly decent one.

@djslack don't worry about fpv. Just buy it and build it with us. Ever build something and got stuck thinking you wish someone else was in your situation? Well, we are setting up this type of scenario. Ruou*mind sounds like he knows his stuff and I'm an engineer so you are covered in terms of technical concerns you may run into. I built a lot of stuff in my lifetime; this build should be relatively easy. Do you solder? I'm going to try to use my 2-axis gimbal that I have on my p111 when I replace it with my Walkera g-3d.

@garyhgaryh @ruouttaurmind Thanks. I'll get a kit on the way soon to build with you guys. I'm definitely building with FPV in mind for it, though. Maybe I can get @nltownsend843 in on it so we can get together and race.

I can solder all right, so that's not a concern for me.

@djslack Sweet! This is gonna be great!

@djslack I'll be adding fpv, but only after I get it running.

@garyhgaryh I'll be using my F12e as the TX, so I guess there's no reason I shouldn't use my cheap Chinese VTX and get a $10 camera to add FPV. Sure, you talked me into it!

@ruouttaurmind lol. I'm looking for a pic of a 250 quad w 2axis gimbal. It's mounted on top!

This is the 250 quad in that youtube video. Has a gimbal.

@garyhgaryh I can't say I've ever seen a motion compensating gimbal on a 250. Usually they're manual 2D or even 1D.

@ruouttaurmind yeah the last Lab Stream. Contest was to create a mascot for the drone.horse site.That's where this thread came from:https://drone.horse/forum/topics/because-you-guys-are-awesome

And all the entries are in this thread, starting with this post I think:
https://meh.com/forum/topics/mediocre-labstream-morning-edition-527--900am-edt--watch--you-could-win-a-fukubukuro#5565c44605f0d0bc0b92e0ea

@Ignorant The horse in a dog suit that lost the drone in an apple tree! I loved that pic! I vote for that one!

@ruouttaurmind I agree they were the only one to venture over here to share.

@Ignorant Imma go back over to that thread and post my .02 in the main forum.

@ruouttaurmind what's the fov of that camera? I wonder if you can just change the lens?

@garyhgaryh FOV is 90 degrees. I need at least 130 and could imagine up to 170 might be usable.

@djslack What's the diff between the 1804 and 1806? I only know that the 1804 is a 2400kv motor and the 1806 is 2280kv.

@garyhgaryh i went to read a comparison of the 1804 vs 2204 and that article also included the 1806. It had the highest thrust per gram in the tests they referenced, so when i saw that choice i went for it.

Looks like the 1804 is more efficient in terms of thrust per watt and lower current draw.

@djslack Do you have a link to that article? Thanks for the info.

@garyhgaryh click on "that article" above... I had to post the reply then go back and edit the link in because I'm on my phone and if i go to another tab I'll lose my reply sometimes.

@djslack Oh thanks! I didn't even see the link. I was on my phone too and missed it..

@djslack Ya, I considered the efficiency of the smaller motors, but since I'm running a bigger, heavier battery I plan to use 6*3 rotors. The 2204's should pull ahead in torque with the extra prop drag.

@ruouttaurmind i figure we each got the right ones... I want mine zippy for racing so more thrust on the 5030 prop is perfect.

@djslack more thrust with lighter weight, i should have said

@ruouttaurmind Hmmm... I wonder if there are any real reviews of that power board you linked besides those on bg. I just thought it looked nice and clean, didn't put any thought toward the cleanliness of the power. But I think the 5v/12v 78M05/12 are pretty straightforward and commonly used--or is there more to a better BEC than that?

@djslack There are various types of voltage regulation circuits. Most common in an ESC is the linear type. It basically takes the input voltage of, in this case about 11v to 12v and burns up the excess voltage, then passes along the remaining 5v or 6v (or whatever voltage you have the ESC set for) to power your FC (flight controller), radio, LED array, etc. The result of burning up excess voltage is heat. And excess heat can damage, or cause shutdown of the ESC. Additionally, inexpensive components used in an inexpensive ESC can cause voltage fluxuations as the current, voltage and temperature vary. Remember, your FC is basically a microcomputer. There is a reason most of us use surge protectors or even UPS power conditioners on our computers. Computers don't function well with dirty power. Erratic performance, unexpected shutdown or freezing and even damage can occur. Damaging a $12 CC3D flight controller with dirty power isn't a huge deal... unless your quadcopter is 30 meters high and tearing up the skies at 20 knots. A system lockup, even a reboot will cause catastrophic results. Better quality BECs are manufactured from higher quality components, sometimes using different technology (switching vs. linear voltage regulation). This should reduce the aforementioned effects, providing a cleaner power source, avoiding an unexpected ESC shutdown and FC issues. In fact, a BEC using switching regulation produces little or no heat at all. Additionally, a linear BEC is much less efficient, wasting power and precious flight time. A switching BEC is much, much more efficient. Since it's not simply burning up excess power, it's effect on battery life is much less pronounced.

Here's an example of a ESC with an integrated linear BEC circuit. Note the voltage regulators with integrated heatsynchs to burn off the excess voltage:

And here's an example of a ESC with an integrated linear type BEC. Note the lack of heatsynch because it doesn't produce much heat:

@ruouttaurmind good info, I didn't stay in electrical engineering long enough.

I see the regulators used on that board are linear. Plus is they'll take the heat out of the esc versus using the integrated bec. But they're not switching. I'll have to do some more research this weekend. That board you linked is backordered until the 15th anyway, so if i want it it'll be a little while anyway.

@ruouttaurmind The second esc has a switching regulator? It makes sense what you're saying, but does it seem to be a common issue that the FC will lock up due to the reasons you stated? Thanks.

@garyhgaryh Yes, the second ESC is a switching circuit, not linear. I would say in a better quality product (DJI for example) it's less of a concern. But for the very inexpensive ESC's that we'll get with our kits... all bets are off. I'm sure we've all had inexpensive Chinese electronics that work right... most of the time.

@ruouttaurmind Yeah according to that video I was viewing about our kit, we have a BEC that sinks the voltage to 5v.

@garyhgaryh That's good news. I checked the details of the kit and I don't see anything about a BEC, other than the ones integrated into the ESC's. I know there is a version of the CC3D power distribution board that integrates a BEC, but the kit I'm getting seems to have the simple PCB distribution without any electronics on it. I've been pondering the power situation and probably the most likely circumstance I can imagine would be a brownout. These sporty little racers are likely to be flown more aggressively than a larger quad and therefore would be more likely to experience a high current draw situation where the ESC is taxed by the motor resulting in LV supply in the BEC to the FC. I'm probably overthinking the whole thing. My first job out of school was with McDonell Douglass (pre-Boeing) as a avionics test engineer working on the Apache and Longbow projects. The idea of redundant systems and fault tolerance has had a lasting effect on me. LOL!

@ruouttaurmind I think there is a bec on the esc - I'm pretty sure of that (correct me if I'm wrong) Yeah, I like redundant system as long as it doesn't add too much weigh. When I get the kit i'm doing to look at the distribution kit Your link to the $6 board is a tempting option.

@garyhgaryh Yes, there's a 5v 2A BEC on each ESC.

@ruouttaurmind Wow, I got mine today. Fast shipping. Awesome vendor.

@garyhgaryh You been livin' right son! You got your gimbal in record time too. That's fantastic.

@ruouttaurmind You know, I think because I live near major postal hubs I get my stuff quickly. I got my G-2D quickly and you got yours a lot later (it seems that way). I also opened my g-3D today. Looks brand new. The guys wrapped it up in two laters of saran wrap (outside backaging and once around the gimbal box that was inside another box).

@garyhgaryh You're in the bay area aren't you? Much of the import stuff from China comes through the SF ISF. For you, it would leave there to your local PO and be out for delivery in about a day I'd bet. For me it still has to travel another 800 miles to the hub that serves my city, then transfer from there and travel another 30 miles to my local PO.

@garyhgaryh But what I really wanna see is what's inside all those nifty mylar bags! LOL!

@ruouttaurmind How about more mylar bags? :)

@ruouttaurmind I'll start opening them tomorrow. I had to fix plumbing at a rental today and then drive an hour to attend a bday party for my mother-in-law.

@nltownsend843 Cool. Tell us about what you have in the works!

@ruouttaurmind
Its nothing special, im just putting a camera/vtx on this and using my attitude goggles.
But it can do flips and rolls so maybe i can get myself to puke lol.
[URL=http://s225.photobucket.com/user/portcity_gt/media/28H-V626-XQ5-LED-Blue-14_zpsgrcmp56t.jpg.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

@nltownsend843 That's the WL Toys 262 rebranded for Hero RC. Pretty spiff little quad. I have a Syma X-1 which is like a little cousin to this one.

@ruouttaurmind yep thats the one. I like it, it flies really good. And built in prop gaurds will come in handy im sure.

@nltownsend843 I found the prop guards to cause issues if you're flying outside on a windy day. They tend to catch the air more causing you to lose control a lot easier. My cheap first quad actually advised that you not fly with the prop guards outdoors for this exact reason.

@DJMajickMan
Hmm, i have flown this one outside and didnt have any major problems. I even took it up in the "snow storm" we had last year lol

@DJMajickMan With prop guards, the wind will throw the phantom all over the place, but I still use 'em. I took off my old dji 8" prop guards and put on guards for the 9" props. Now my phantom won't fit in it's ikea case I always put it in :(.

@ruouttaurmind Hey hey, glad you got it. Can you spread out the mylar packets and see how many you got. Want to make sure I'm not missing anything. My motors are kinda tiny :(. I verified I got 2 CW and 2 CCW motors. Yeah, no resistors needed for the AEE cable. Looking fwd to getting it!

@garyhgaryh

I was really surprised how heavy the bag with the frame is. Turns out half that weight is the hardware. Also the ESC's are quite heavy. After seeing how small the motors are it seems 20A ESC's might be a bit of overkill.

Well, first problem encountered. My motors don't fit the frame arms. Well, if I want to use four mounting screws anyway, my motors won't fit. As is often the case with brushless motors, one pair of mounting holes is a couple mm farther apart than the other pair. The wider pair is too wide to fit the screw holes on the frame arms.

@ruouttaurmind thanks for the pic. We got the same stuff sans the motor. I will mark the shipment as received now. I did find about 15-20 mins tonight to find loctite/tool and install the motors. I can prob only put that much time in per day. Here's what I have so far. :).

@ruouttaurmind Mine fits perfectly. I thought it wasn't going to but it does.

@ruouttaurmind

@garyhgaryh Choosing those larger motors is biting me in my backside. :-(

@ruouttaurmind if I wanted to upgrade later I was going to upgrade to the ones you got. You only need three screws anyways so you're good. Best to have four but if you can't three is the minimal since it forms a triangle - the most stable min mounting configure. Just remember to use loctite.

@garyhgaryh The diameter of the screws is too large, plus the distance between holes would only permit two screws even if I open up the mounting slots. If I drill new holes I'd be concerned about damaging the structural integrity of the arm... plus possibly messing up the carbon fiber. I've contacted the seller to see if he might have a remedy short of "use a drill and a file".

@ruouttaurmind So are you attaching it X or + it looks like the + slots are wider and should be able to handle a larger screw.

@ruouttaurmind I would probably just drill though. If I look at the four mounting holds and try to line them up with the arm, it doesn't look like it would all fit, but it did on mine. Kinda sucks that you have to deal with this - bigger motor and bigger mounting screws! Let me know how it goes cuz my upgrade path would be the motor you have.

@DJMajickMan That's a good point. I didn't even notice, but the + slots are indeed bigger.

@DJMajickMan I just picked up the arm and noticed the width of the + slots are twice as wide. It doesn't appear to in the picture due to lighting.

@garyhgaryh, @DJMajickMan I first tried the "X" and the slots are too narrow. Then I tried the "+" and the slots are wide enough, but I can only secure one set of holes on the motor. The other two mounting holes on the motor are spaced too far apart. Filing or drilling them out would put the top hole within a mm from the edge of the board.

@garyhgaryh Guess I just have good eyes ;) I could tell they were wider it almost looks like your screws would have gone through on the + direction.

@ruouttaurmind your motors came with mounting brackets can those be mounted to the other holes after mounting the motor to them? or am I mistaken as to what is in that bag?

@DJMajickMan Yup, mounting brackets were included... but there is no way to mount the brackets to the CF arms. No holes line up at all with the brackets.

@ruouttaurmind that batch has been delayed a lot, found a thread on rcgroups talking about it. I, too, want this board.

@ruouttaurmind The one you pointed out seems to be back in stock (correct me if I'm mistaken). I think I will order it when I get back from biking this afternoon. The project is on hold until I get my servo tester.

@ruouttaurmind Looks like it's available now (last night it was not): http://www.banggood.com/Diatone-ZMR250-PCB-Board-For-ZMR250-Quadcopter-Frame-Kit-p-976127.html?utm_design=28&utm_source=emarsys&utm_medium=mailad194_Dealalert&utm_campaign=newsletter-emarsys&utm_content=Misue&sc_src=email_1391389&sc_eh=24c69d3812252e691&sc_llid=84683&sc_lid=71574494&sc_uid=UhwbUlo6iQ&emst=UhwbUlo6iQ_84683_1391389_18

@garyhgaryh says expected restock June 15 still for me... Maybe it went out of stock again, hope you got lucky if you got one.

I think i like this board more than the Simple PDB, but i like the overcraft one even more. I did read one place that the holes don't match up with the zmr250 frame on this diatone board, need to do more research.

@djslack When I checked last night it was out of stock again. Hmm.. I'll wait.

@garyhgaryh Price went up by sixty cents too.

@ruouttaurmind oh that sucks.

@garyhgaryh @ruouttaurmind I was reading and found coupon code 250pcb is supposed to get that pdb on banggood for $4.99.

Also they posted specs on the hole placement: http://www.banggood.com/Diatone-ZMR250-PCB-Board-For-ZMR250-Quadcopter-Frame-Kit-p-976127.html Could one of you that has already received the kit compare the measurements and see if this board is an option for us?

@djslack Thanks for the coupon code. I'll check the measurements.

@djslack The mounting holes seem to line up, but the measurements are off. For example, the top two mounting holes are 32mm apart. On mine it's 30mm center to center. The pair of mounting holes below that is suppose to be 34.4mm. On mine it's 33mm. Looks like a no-go unless you want to redrill or enlarge some of the holes.

@garyhgaryh I wonder if their dimensions are "outside to outside" rather than c2c?

@garyhgaryh thanks for the info. I may or may not decide to jump on it, they might be close enough to rework. Probably build it how it comes first.

@ruouttaurmind It'll be very close. My measurements would be 33mm and 35mm for the pair of measurements I talked about earlier. The diagram indicates c2c, but who knows how accurate the measurements are. The differences seem small - perhaps I shouldn't say it's a "no-go" for this board.

@djslack They seem close enough. I should not have said "no-go". It's not like it's hugely off the mark. My next step is to wire up all the esc wires together and I'm having a touch time trying to decide how to do it. This board will make it so much easier. I don't want to wire all the thick guage wires together along with a battery wire. Wait... Did we get a battery wire with the kit?

@garyhgaryh No battery wire came with mine (though I think one was shown in that review video you posted). I ordered some XT60 leads from Banggood the same night I ordered my kit and they arrived yesterday. As far as the board... I'm willing to throw the dice and risk $6 to find out. I'll go ahead and place an order and wait for restock. Unless I can find one like that Overcraft board with the integrated LEDs.

@ruouttaurmind i bit too. $5 is worth the risk. But somehow i spent like $35 more on leds and accessories. I might have a problem.

Edit: aaand i just read that Cleanflight supports up to 32 leds, so i ordered too many.

Most people mount the ESC the arms. Any advantages to just mounting it on the body? Looks like I have enough wire to go all the way to the body.

Found something: http://blog.oscarliang.net/mounting-esc-arms-body-quadcopter/

Here's a video of the motor running. Ignore the rattling, it's from the mounting screw dancing on the glass table as the motor runs.

@garyhgaryh What do you think about mounting a rotor to that little sucker, clamping it to the table and firing it up to see what it draws under load?

@garyhgaryh I thought about mounting ESC's on the main platform also. Thought it might be better for weight distribution. But I'd have to see if they have any EMI emission. Wouldn't want to cause issues with the radio or FC. EDIT: I also considered replacing them with smaller ESC's. Discounting the battery weight, these huge ESC's are one of the heaviest components of the build.

@ruouttaurmind I will try that tomorrow if I can just hold it in my hand. I think I will mount the ESC to the body. Small ESCs is a good idea, but since this is my budget build, I'm sticking with these (for now at least).

@ruouttaurmind Three motors pull from .35-.45 amp. One motor pulls .57A. Not sure why that one pulls so much more current. Now that my daughter is asleep I'll do a amp draw on one of the motors with a prop in 15 mins.

@ruouttaurmind Ok, I pulled a motor from the stack. This one is a CW motor and pulls .45A with no props. I put a prop on it and it pulls 3.1A. Wow, this motor is powerful. Without the prop it sounds deceivingly wimpy. After I put the prop on, the arm almost flew out of my hand. I also found out that full throttle does not give you max thrust. It's PWM signal so if I keep going past a certain point, the power drops off.

@ruouttaurmind Ok, I did more testing. If you go over about 1650 hz (+/-50hz), power drops. This thing roars!

@garyhgaryh So it sounds like the kit with the 12A ESC would have been fine, ya?

@ruouttaurmind definitely. 20A is overkill. You have bigger motors so yours will draw more than 3A, but I doubt your 2204 will draw 12A.

I realize I can make my own spacer. Get a 7mm thick lexan and buy the M3x18mm bolt/nuts. Might go that route. I really need a 3D printer.

@garyhgaryh Glad you found this useful

Our full build blog can be found here:
https://www.rcgeeks.co.uk/blog/emax-nighthawk-250-fpv-racer-build-overview.html

@garyhgaryh the one i ordered from Banggood is 12awg. I think that's pretty standard.

@djslack Do you have a link to the pigtail? I'm about to order it from hobby king, but shipping is $5.

@garyhgaryh I paid $1.93 each for three, including shipping. http://www.banggood.com/XT60-Male-Plug-10AWG-10cm-With-Wire-p-77537.html EDIT: URL says 10AWG, but it's really 12AWG

@garyhgaryh yep, same url as @ruouttaurmind is the one i bought. $2.18 for a single piece. I bought it with the pdb, and everything shows as shipped.

@ruouttaurmind @djslack awesome! I'm glad I didn't order from HK. Thanks!

@ruouttaurmind I used to have to drill out spoke holes in cf deep section bicycle wheels in a past life as a wheelbuilder. Granted that was not 3mm cf, but i used an electric drill and what i only remember as a nice sharp drill bit. With the price of cf in the 90s, I was much more concerned with getting the placement of my template right, tbe physical cutting was no big deal.

Tl;dr: i think sharp tools and careful work will make for fine results.

@djslack Thanks for the reply. So basically like fiberglass laminate... sharp tools at fast speed, slow and steady pace for the cuts?

@ruouttaurmind
A respirator and a dremel will fix you right up.

@ruouttaurmind Sounds like a winning strategy to me. The respirator probably also a good idea.

@djslack Thanks for the tips. I guess I feel like I can do this without messing it up.

@ruouttaurmind i actually did some reading instead of just relying on memory... I didn't have to worry about tearout on the back because it was inside the wheel. Seems some more advice is to use masking tape and drill into a block of wood on the backside. And for enlarging holes a drill press is handy, makes sense.

http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t628526p1/

@djslack Oh, excellent. Thank you!

@ruouttaurmind I thought mine was messed up to. BTW the 450 arrived today...after thinking I could only screw in two I pulled the other mounting bracket and started rotating it around and found that what the did is expect you to put it on sideways for mine and tuck the wires under the arms. I now am getting all four screws in.

@ruouttaurmind LOL and the kicker on top of all of that is that one does line up straight down the top. Man I love this build.

@DJMajickMan Which motors did you decide to go with for your kits?

@ruouttaurmind the ones that came with it they didn't provide upgrades to the motors. But you could tell the X was longer on one side so it was more like a cross. And again one had the wires coming out so that you could go down the top of the arms the rest all were set for side mounting. On mine there are holes to push the wires under the arms. which is where I want them. I also need to pull some power cabling as the ESC power leads don't go far enough to reach where the distribution board will go. Guess they don't assemble and then cut all future cables to that length.

@ruouttaurmind I have one of these. Very useful. They commonly have 20% coupons so don't forget to use the coupon on top of the sales price.

@garyhgaryh Hey Gary, I've been in pins and needles. What's the word on the AV cable?

@ruouttaurmind Hi owe it to you to stop what I'm doing and find out right now :). Give me about 30 minutes and I'll give you my results (sorry about this weekend, it was busy as usual).

@garyhgaryh No worries my friend... take your time. I was just wondering if you already had done it. No rush... just keep me posted when you have a mintue to try it out.

@ruouttaurmind I got it setup, but battery is dead. I am charging it and will post in the main thread when I'm done charging.

@ruouttaurmind I can't find the top level thread I created when I got your fpv wire. In anycase, I'm posting the results here... Your FPV cable WORKS!! I connected it directly to the monitor. It was the easiest for me. After a slow start on trying to figure the quickest way to connect it, I was greeted with static and then a stable image of my ceiling! Enjoy and thanks! I shot a video too. Can you send me your contact info so I can put it in the video? Best of all, I didn't have to go into any menus to get it in fpv mode. It works just like the hero (but hero you have to initially set it via the menu once).

I also promised someone I will test out my gps tracker. I'll get to that too! :)

@garyhgaryh Ha! That's awesome! I love it when a plan comes together! :-) I wonder what happened to @pufferfishy? He was looking for one too...

@ruouttaurmind I haven't heard from the guy.. I wonder if he still has his S71?

@ruouttaurmind that's pretty tiny, especially for 10 channels. Here's my bigger 6 channel rx.

@djslack looks pretty much the same size but you got TWO!

@djslack Where did you get that and will it work on the devo f12e?

@garyhgaryh Got them on eBay. They are for the Tactic SLT protocol so no on the f12e. My girlfriend got me a TTX650 transmitter with a nice plane for my birthday, I plan on using it with the ZMR as well.

@garyhgaryh I also ordered a RX601 because I started to doubt if the 10 ch. would be small enough for the 250. It hasn't arrived yet, but it's half the weight of this one, so maybe even smaller.

@ruouttaurmind post a pic when it gets in

@garyhgaryh SO tiny. And the quarter weighs more than the RX.

@ruouttaurmind If you had to do it all over again and had to buy one, would you stick with the 6 or 10 ch rx?

@garyhgaryh I haven't put them on the scale to see what the weight difference is, but the size is pretty similar. The 601 was about $10 less and assuming the range is adequate, it'll more than do the job with six channels. So I guess if I knew then what I know now... I probably would have just ordered a 601 in the first place. EDIT: By the way, in comparison to the 703, the 601 is less than half the size.

Never mind. Two seconds googling, i should have thought of this. The pieces I couldn't place are the landing gear.

@djslack Dang! You're farther along than any of us! And I've had my kit for a week already.

@ruouttaurmind oh, no, that's someone's picture that I found on Google. I put all the frame pieces back in their bag and boxed everything back up. It just shows where the triangle pieces I wasn't familiar with wind up on the finished build.

@djslack I was about to drop everything and start building so I could catch up. LOL!

@ruouttaurmind Nah. Other than as a test fitting, I don't see a reason to put the frame together without anything on it just to have to take it apart again to add the actual parts.

@djslack I'm just waiting for my xt60 pigtail. Everything should come together after this. I mounting my ESCs between the bottom plates.

@garyhgaryh I still have to wait for the Diatone PDB from China. Banggood has been pretty quick with my last few orders, so hopefully I'll see it next week and I can start assembly. I considered using bullet connectors for ESC to motors, but for the few grams it'll save in weight I am probably going to solder and heat shrink.

@ruouttaurmind not only weight savings, but if you unplug and replug the bullet connectors very much apparently they become prone to failure.

My diatone pdb is the holdup as well. It shipped out on the 13th so we'll see when it gets here.

@ruouttaurmind @djslack Peer pressure.. I ordered the diatone pdb as well last nite. I'm making spacers with a yardstick (that I will cut up) I bought from Joanne's. I replace that once I get my 3d printer to print spacers for the zmr250.

@garyhgaryh I'm pleased and proud to be considered a "peer" and I'm downright tickled that I'm a bad influence. ;-)

@ruouttaurmind lol. Mine already shipped.

See this video at 3:50:

@garyhgaryh He received a bag with a Deans power connector and nylon hardware. If I had to guess I'd say that's the parts to mount the PDB to the main board?

I checked the item description and website pics and there's no mention of the Deans or the nylon hardware. Maybe the guy ordered it as an add-on item and didn't realize?

@garyhgaryh Nope, no nylon standoffs. Was about to research where to get some, hopefully quicker than from China.

@djslack My local Ace hardware store has a full assortment of nylon hardware for a few cents each.

@ruouttaurmind the nylon standoffs are used to mount the pdb and cc3d to the main board. I see them at Home Depot and orchards. I also check the listing and those items are never mentioned.

@DJMajickMan You got standoffs?

@garyhgaryh Yes 8 of them. I'm guessing it is 4 for the PDB and 4 for the FC. I'm still thinking out my layout but I'm thinking since these plates have the mounting options of straight on or off by 45 I could mount the PDB off by 45 and than mount the FC as it needs to be straight on above it keeping nothing mounted on top of the top plate. But I need longer standoff's to do this.

@DJMajickMan You're lucky to get it as I didn't get any standoffs. @ruouttaurmind did you get standoffs?

@garyhgaryh I got the aluminum ones for between the platforms, but not the nylon ones for the PDB/FC mounting.

@ruouttaurmind Awesome! I'm just guessing here but i think the wobble may be due to pid tuning - if the fc doesn't know the exact levels of output necessary to correct certain input variances when in closed loop mode (maintaining a hover) then it can overcompensate and things can go quickly awry. When you are providing input to do something, it's not trying to run the whole show itself and doesn't have this problem as much (or you help correct it.)

I could be completely off base, though.

I'm wondering if I'll even play with openpilot or immediately flash Cleanflight on mine.

@ruouttaurmind great to hear that you've already started working on that totaled Walkera you recently crashed. Thanks for the update.

@garyhgaryh Is this the one you're looking for? http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Mini-250-Quadcopter-CC3D-Flight-Controller-ZMR-1804-2400kv-Motor-20A-Esc-5030-Propeller-CC3D-Distribution/727847_32297666591.html

@DJMajickMan No, someone had a 450 sized quad copter they found from the same vendor. It was $99 or so.

@garyhgaryh oh that'd be me thought you were talking original quad kit. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/REPTILE-500-Alien-Quadcopter-Frame-kk-2-15-Flight-Controller-XXD-2212-1000kv-Motor-30A-Simonk/32262471937.html

@DJMajickMan Yeah that's the one.. did you get it? If I buy something the seller said she'll throw in the standoffs. But now I can make the standoffs :).

@garyhgaryh you'll have to let us know if the printed ones work out. I'd had issues when trying to do threaded print jobs

@DJMajickMan I'm about to print it out. I think I will have to do a fine print (vs normal or vs quick).

@DJMajickMan Do you recommend the reptile 500?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/REPTILE-500-Alien-Quadcopter-Frame-kk-2-15-Flight-Controller-XXD-2212-1000kv-Motor-30A-Simonk/32262471937.html

@DJMajickMan Pretty sweet. Not a bad price either. Do those mount to the existing leg mounts?

@ruouttaurmind Yes the included carbon fiber plate appears like it should line up in place of the existing legs.Once concern I haven't confirmed would be the compass being moved when the legs retract. Might have to find a place on the body to have it mounted.

@DJMajickMan Oh, ya, of course. I hadn't thought of that. The compass would have to be relocated, wouldn't it.

@ruouttaurmind Since these retractable legs are replacing the ones on your quad I'd say yes. Don't think you can(would want to) run both. Weight savings and possible interference with the legs going up and down :)

@DJMajickMan How do you control the legs? The only downside is if the phantom comes crashing down and the legs are retracted.

@garyhgaryh phantom isn't getting the upgrade.

@DJMajickMan Is this for the zmr project?!

@garyhgaryh it's now going on the REPTILE 500 I don't like that it lands practically on the base plate. If there's a rock on the ground or something else and I land, it could cause it to tilt and go ape $hit

15 of 16 arm holes line up perfectly enough to put nylon screws through, there's only one I can't get a screw through with the boards sandwiched directly together. It's likely just a loose tolerance, the design seems like it's meant for this frame. I think I'll just carefully drill the pdb (assuming the cf matches the arms).

Edit: Actually, I just squeezed and wiggled everything a bit and was able to push the 16th screw through, but it is in a bind a little more than I'd like it to be. I'm calling this pdb a definite win for $5.

The four inside screws are slightly bound with all screws inserted. Nothing a little light trimming couldn't handle, probably a bit in a pin vise would do it.

Wait, one more update. Turns out there is a front and back, the frames aren't perfectly symmetrical. I swapped ends on the pdb and everything went together much better.

@djslack Looks great! My only complaint (very minor) I wish the oriented the +/- for the ESCs along the edge rather than along the front and back. Minor minor thing.

@ruouttaurmind Could they slide into the front and back of the plate where those slots are? Above of the DTI label on the right and in the same place on the left of the photo.

@ruouttaurmind i think the strips are four different colors (red, green, blue, and white?) and only 2 go on the board to give you a choice of colors. I tested the board and the led connections on the bottom appear to be directly connected to the battery input pads.

@djslack I did notice the LEDs on the top strip are a different color. I'll put some power on them tonight and see what lights up. So basically they're nav lights in lieu of the ones that came with the kit.

@DJMajickMan Which receiver did you go with? And what radio will you bind it with?

@ruouttaurmind Walkera Devo RX802 receiver will be paired with the walkera transmitter.

Custom made CC3D holder. Yes, I'm leaving the FC in the case. With this setup, I don't need additional
standoffs. I'm using the standoffs already in place.

I'll put it up on thingiverse of you're interested.

@garyhgaryh It all looks pretty good. You've made a bunch of progress. You're putting the FC in the middle deck then?

@ruouttaurmind Yes. Here are some updated pictures.

The battery is too big for this quad so I'll use my 1000mah zippy battery.

What's left to do?
1. Hook up the Rx705 to the CC3D
2. Configure the CC3D, put on props

I will try powering on the zmr250 with the f12e sometime this upcoming week, if not tomorrow.
We're almost there (no plans for fpv until I get it up in the air in a controlled fashion).

Noticed the LEDs are on and the status LED on the CC3D. I'm excited.

Congrats @djslack for getting your zmr250 up in the air. The flip was epic in your video.

@garyhgaryh Are you concerned about rotor clearance to your RX? Once you get the wiring between the RX and the FC in place won't it be a bit close to the rotor?

I wonder if you've considered turning the RX 90* and 90*. Face the antennas out the front, and orient it up on it's edge? That would keep most of the wiring well inside the standoffs and between decks.

@ruouttaurmind Well, I didn't think of that. I put the props on when I only had the arms and motors together a few weeks back.

Look at this:

Seems like an issue. I can just raise it or turn it 90 like you mentioned.

Speaking of the RX, I might have an issue with the f12e. The FC can see the left stick (throttle), but not the right stick on the rx705. Any ideas? I got the f12e used so maybe I bought a bad one. Whats an easy way to verify either or both my rx or the transmitter's right stick input?

@garyhgaryh Are you using OpenPilot to view radio input?

@garyhgaryh You mentioned in the very beginning that both these items came from a (purportedly) working Tali, so theoretically they'd be properly configured to work with one another. Though it is possible to reprogram MANY values in the F12e setup, including channel responses, etc. Perhaps the previous owner did some reconfiguration that fussed with the channel responses. Maybe even trying to get it to pair with some other RX?

I have my Devo 7 paired with my RX601. I think maybe I should export my model configuration and email it to you. You can import it to your F12e as a new model profile and give that a shot? Or if you'd rather I can just list out all the settings and values I've configured for the paring?

@ruouttaurmind Yes, I'm using OpenPilot to view radio input. If it's not a big deal you can export your model configuration and email to me, although I probably won't import it right away. Could it be that I hooked up the wrong wires to Aux 2? Aux 1 is for Throttle and that works (white signal wire). Aux 2 is the blue signal wire and it's suppose to be for roll.

@ruouttaurmind I should say I think aux to is for roll. Is it?

@ruouttaurmind Typo: I should say I think aux 2 is for roll. Is it?

@garyhgaryh It's totally dependant on your TX configuration. The TX can assign any stick movement to any channel. The default config for Tali is Aux 2 is Elevator (which would be pitch for a quad).

@ruouttaurmind I'm going through the menu for the f12e. In the device output page, you can assign Aux2..Aux7 to any switches. How do you assign the joystick inputs to one of the aux channels?

@garyhgaryh WAIT!!!

Isn't it odd how sometimes the solution for a challenge can drop into your head from out of the blue?

Ok, so I'm sitting at my desk, minding my own business, working on the TPS reports for Lumbergh, and it strikes me... You're using a Devo RX705. That's a PPM radio. CC3D is expecting to see PWM input on Pitch, Yaw, Roll channels. That would 'splain why CC3D is reporting no action on those channels. Because... well, there ISN'T any action on those channels, right? I think you need to use the CC3D 3 wire setup.

I don't know if it's possible to set the 705 to PWM mode, but simply switching CC3D to 3 wire may solve your issue and tell CC3D to look for PPM rather than PWM.

If I recall correctly, CC3D uses pins 1, 2, 3 for PPM comms.

@garyhgaryh, follow these steps. Before doing any of this I encourage you to re-bind your RX/TX... just to be sure. Skip this step if you like, and try as a remedy if the process below is unsuccessful.

1. Connect pin 8 from the CC3d (a yellow wire on my CC3D wiring harness) to DATA BUS on RX705

2. Connect pins 1,2,3 (white, red, black) to AUX1

3. Connect CC3D to PC, run OpenPilot GCS, select Vehicle Setup Wizard

4. For Input Signal Configuration type choose PPM

5. Follow on-screen instructions to complete vehicle hardware configuration

6. Once hardware configuration is complete, continue on to Radio configuration and calibration

7. Send me a thank you note ;-)

I just did this with a RX703A (also a PPM RX) and the Devo F12e using the default Tali model setup stored in the F12e Model menu. Everything works as intended. Throttle, yaw, pitch, roll... everything works.

To enable AUX switches you'll need to spend some time in the OpenPilot and F12e configuration menus, but the basic functionality works as intended after completing the wizard. Just make sure you choose PPM as your signal type.

As an added bonus, you can remove 4 of the 8 wires from the CC3D to your RX since they're no longer needed. In fact, you MIGHT be able to remove 7 of the 8 wires if you're providing power to the RX from a BEC line.

@ruouttaurmind Dave! Thank you! It works. You're a genius - I can't believe you figured it out so fast.. I've been pulling my hair out over this. Luckily, I did not have to re-bind. It's funny, when I armed the copter I think the f12e says "On" (female) voice. I am so happy you got it working for me. Time for me to work on your stuff! I am so thankful you know about everything related to your Tali. Yes, I always assumed this rx was PWM, not PPM. It was just an assumption and I assumed wrong. Does this mean I have aux2 to aux 7 at my disposal? That's like getting free channels!

@garyhgaryh All the channels are transmitted over that one wire in PPM mode, so no extras but they are all getting to your FC. I'm jealous, when I decided to go with the Tactic radio I have I didn't know about PPM.

@djslack Well, not exactly. The primary flight functions are xmitted via PPM, but aux functions can still be assigned to aux channels. It's my understanding that the sum of primary functions plus aux can't exceed the number of RX channels in your radio. Though through the magic of PWM freq we can gain "mod" functions, effectively extending the number of feature functions beyond that RX channel limit.

@garyhgaryh You are quite welcome, Gary. Once it struck me what was causing your problem, it only took about 10 min to figure out and test the solution. Piece of cake.

Now Lumbergh's TPS reports on the other hand...

@ruouttaurmind that 10 min was worth a few hours to me! Hope your report is done!

@ruouttaurmind nice! Then I'm more jealous of PPM setups. Shouldn't need them for a racer, but if i build an ap rig down the road then extra channels will be welcome.

@djslack I guess the only advantage on a racer is cleaner wiring? 3 wires to the RX versus a minimum of 6 with a PWM setup.

@ruouttaurmind my personal reason is that I wanted to do some fancy RGB color changing LEDs on my racer. Turns out the only way this is supported is if you use PWM and free up some of the other wires for the LED controls.

@djslack If you use PWM you don't free anything up though, do you?

@ruouttaurmind i think it will free up i/o capacity on the flight controller, if it's not having to process 6 simultaneous pwm inputs it can handle throwing some memory and a pwm output at running a light show, but it doesn't support doing both at the same time.

@djslack I remember you mentioning something about the LED controller a few weeks ago, but I'll be darned if I can find that thread now.

@garyhgaryh Ok, the truth behind my TPS reports...

@ruouttaurmind i think it might be this brief mention here: https://drone.horse/forum/topics/djslacks-zmr250-build#55952f9fa19d4ed005731543

@ruouttaurmind lol.

@DJMajickMan How are you powering the rx? Pictures please! :)

@DJMajickMan Sounds like you're coming along very nicely. I'm sure you've already been through this, but have you tried re-seating your RX connections just to make sure everything is solid and secure? I had a similar problem with my CC3D. The RX harness connector on the CC3D end was intermittent. I found that one end of the connector was being slightly obstructed by the CC3D housing. A few seconds with an Xacto to trim back some plastic flashing and all was solved.

@DJMajickMan on most receivers the signal is the inboard pin. Could those connections be reversed?

@DJMajickMan +1. You need to reverse the orientation of your JST connectors in the receiver.

Have a look at how I connected my FC to the receiver in the pic below. Also, the lead with the power is also usually connected to the throttle input (labeled THRO on the RX802). I can't say that for sure with your KK controller though. But the signals are def. reversed.

@ruouttaurmind @djslack I'll give that a try and see if that makes the difference.

@DJMajickMan @ruouttaurmind @djslack I have the rx705 and I have the 3 pin header connected to Aux 1. All the signal wires after that I connected to Aux 2-Aux 7. I don't have a THRO input. I just followed some advise on youtube for some other rx.

@DJMajickMan Any progress with this?

@ruouttaurmind No change. still searching

@garyhgaryh Think I might have to get a RX601 I'm seeing others having issues with the 802 and the Devo 7 not pairing. And since the KK board only has one AUX channel it doesn't seem like I'd be able to use the extra two AUX channels on the RX anyways.

Also found out I wasn't fully connecting everything correctly and corrected that. This is when I found the the RX solid light stopped occurring unless I connected a signal line from the motor side of the KK to the RX. Think it was getting mixed signals and therefor the Devo7 was never actually pairing.

Nothing I have tried since has gotten it to connect and I don't have the RX Code to manually enter it into the TX.

@DJMajickMan Maybe try clearing the binding and re-bind? Turn off your TX and RX, connect a binding plug to BATT port on RX and apply power. RX will slow-flash LED. Give it a couple seconds, power down RX, remove binding plug, power up RX, then power up TX. They should re-bind. Oh, and make sure FIXED-ID is OFF on the Devo7 before re-binding.

@DJMajickMan I'm having issues with my rx705. I might buy an rx601 to try out since the rx705 doesn't seem to be working for me. Which one is for thrust? Yawn? Row? etc? etc? My inputs are only labeled Aux1 though Aux7.

@garyhgaryh Mr. G... I've solved your problem! Read my posting above.

@ruouttaurmind I'll check for the FIXED-ID on the Devo7 when I get home. I've tried rebinding countless times and since it isn't bound to anything I think I can skip that step for the 163798th time. ;)

@DJMajickMan I can imagine it must be really frustrating. :-(

The lack of documentation for some of this stuff is maddening. And doing online searches... wow. There's just so much noise and the real meaty info is usually buried and poorly organized.

@ruouttaurmind Well FIXED-ID was off made some other modifications per some other data and still no go. Already ordered the replacement RX from Amazon and it should be in by the time I get back from hiking on Saturday. sigh sometimes it's better to just find an existing built thread and follow it instead of heading out on one's on blazing the trail.

@DJMajickMan That was one of the reason's why I wanted us to all build the same quad together - so we can all help each other. I thought the quad was easy to build, up until I got to configuring the used transmitter I bought. Luckily, @ruouttaurmind bailed me out. If I had gotten a transmitter with a PPM rx I probably would have sailed right through this project (knock on wood as I haven't actually hoovered the zmr250 yet). Hope I'm not speaking too soon as I may run into issues that @djslack is dealing with right now (bad esc and possibly bad motor).

@DJMajickMan Once you get the RX601 you'll be amazed how much easier it is to configure. With the added benefit of being smaller and lighter than the RX802. :-)

@ruouttaurmind @garyhgaryh Nope it was me being a total fracking n00b. the 601 arrived and to start I wasn't happy with the 1 inch antenna's so I was thinking this is crappy...than I plugged everything in and powered the KK and the light on the RX went on and immediately off. I was like WTF...than I decided(why I didn't do this on the 802 I don't know) lets reverse all of the connections to the other side of the RX, and sure enough it powered on and stayed on and paired with the TX.

So I was like okay screw these tiny antenna, lets see what the 802 does...BINGO signal connection and everything is testing out spot on. Even had my motors spinning in the right directions the first shot. What were the chances of that?!?! Dialed in all of the settings and will mount the props soon. Having to charge the batteries as when I set the alarm on the KK and went back to the main screen it started screaming at me. First battery was all the way down to 4.5v LOL

@DJMajickMan Yeah, my 1000mah battery was down to 4.x volts when I was calibrating and testing the rx.

@DJMajickMan When you say you "reverse all of the connections to the other side" I'm trying to picture what got reversed?

@ruouttaurmind ground and signal sides

@DJMajickMan Oh dang. I thought you already tried that last Monday when Slack and I suggested it.

Thank goodness you've pinpointed it!

@ruouttaurmind I saw retractable landing gears for the P2. Might be too big :). Make a motor stand (x4) which doubles as a landing gear.

@garyhgaryh good catch! Last time I looked parts 4 and 5 were not up.

@djslack I realize I already saw p3. New: Part 4-5.

@garyhgaryh ha! I tried to warn you that it's very loud! Hope you didn't make your wife too mad!

"This video is private."

@djslack lol. Ok try now.

@garyhgaryh I think it's green in front black in rear. they should be one cw one ccw for each color that's why the quad didn't fly and only spun on the ground at full throttle.

@DJMajickMan Yeah, I'm well aware of that now :). On mine it's black in front, green in back. I face the props down with the circular indentation towards the motor.

@garyhgaryh that's better than I did I had all props reversed on my first attempt. Mind wasn't working. So all props were pushing air up rather than down. and not pushing hard because of the design of the props. Also notice I've got another problem. Motor one wasn't moving at the same rate as the others and after longer testing the ESC was hot, way hotter then all of the other ESC's. Being that I've pulled the power out of all of the ESC's it means I'll have to remove the heat shrink from one of them and plug the power cable back in and try swapping one to see if it's the motor causing it or the ESC.

Project for tomorrow I guess.

@DJMajickMan Wow, I had a ton of fun for the last 45 minutes. I've damage my quad, but when it was working, it was working great! One word, you need to find a big open area to fly this thing. It's fast and hard to control, but it reacts fast to any moves you make. I can't image how fast the other motors are because I have the lowly 1804's. First flight I got it to hover. I touch it a tad to go up and it zoomed up and over my house. I aborted and it dropped to the roof. Had to get a ladder to get it down. Flew it about a dozen times. This thing is alot of fun and it takes alot of abuse as I crashed it so many times into the ground. It hovers, it goes straight back, rolls left, rolls right. I didn't try yaw left/right as I was too preoccupied keeping it in place. It's alot harder to fly than the phantom, but it's must faster than the phantom. The last flight it was rolling right.... HARD right into the side of the garage and bounced off. I was surprised nothing flew off - It didn't physically break but I noticed the #1 propeller barely turns and made alot of beeping noises. The landing gear was almost popped off but I can't tell if the motor took a hit. I will upload a video soon. wonder if it's the motor or esc. I was having so much fun too! I noticed one of the props has alot of chips in it... Anyways, these little racer quads are called racers for a reason.. they are FAST!! My quad now does not fly so I'm back to having a non flying zmr250 in less than 24 hrs. Fly in an open area if you are as inexperienced as I am lol.

One thing I noticed is that when i dropped fast to the ground, i hit the throttle and it came within inches of the ground and was able to zoom right back up! It's amazing... I wish I had the skills to fly this thing. Maybe it's because I'm trying to fly it around a small backyard (relatively speaking my yard is big for a CA urban area, but not big enough to fly something like this quad).

@garyhgaryh colors are your choice but using a different color on front vs rear can help with orientation. If you look carefully on the tops the propellers have arrows which show the direction of rotation.

I'm super stoked to hear how well yours worked! Hope you get it sorted out pretty soon. I've heard of magnets getting knocked loose in the motors, some epoxy can help if that's the case.

@djslack Seems to turn freely. Heard about magnets and epoxy for these motors (I think from a youtube video). I really hope that's the case. This quad is awesome - esp for $85!! When it drifts, it drifts quickly so you need alot of room for this "toy". I hope to get it up and running in weeks, but I need to take a break from this and the 3d printing stuff (wife is complaining about my obsessions).

@garyhgaryh you might want to simple start off flying this in FPV so that you can get used to it not being directly in line of sight. Start with getting a chair and a large field and fly it in circles around you keeping you in view at all times. Have a spotter with you that can keep track of how close you might be getting to trees or people if they start coming out to look etc.

@DJMajickMan i ordered the $23 fpv package from banggood (eachine) so I may do that. I think I could learn to fly this thing in a few minutes if I had more space to work with. Kinda like flying a jet plane within the bounds of a football field (ok, that's a stretch but I'm exaggerating the limitations I face when flying in my yard).

@garyhgaryh check your solder joints from motor to esc... Maybe check the resistance between each pair of the three. Check the big cap on the output side of the esc, too. Just a guess but seems like an electrical issue there.

Your daughter sounds excited! I was scared for her fingers at the end lol, i know she wasn't that close but she wanted to touch it! I bet she's amazed by all Daddy's flying things.

@djslack yes I was indeed worried about her safety and edited most of me yelling at her to get away :). I will test with a servo tester today and may take it apart so I can get to the that specific esc in a week.

@garyhgaryh I can hear the signal pulsing in the motor.

Visual inspection doesn't show anything unusual? Manual manipulation of the motor doesn't indicate anything unusual? Dragging, mechanical noise, etc?

I'm with Slack on this. Compare impedance of the three pair combos to one of the good motors. Maybe a armature winding on the motor, maybe, as you guys speculated the other day, a loose magnet.

Maybe... before you spend any time on this... you should try recalibrating the ESC??

@garyhgaryh Your daughter's laughter was cracking me up. :-) She really did seem to be enjoying daddy's new toy!

And the sound effects at 04:17... cringe

@garyhgaryh BTW, an afterthought... is the motor getting overly warm when you try to idle it like you did in the video?

@ruouttaurmind No dragging or mechanical noise. I'll have another look at it.. I'm so bummed - it was fun while it lasted. I hope it's just a lose magnet, but I figure it would bind if it's knocked out of place. The motor did not get warm, but I can't touch the esc because it's between the plates. If I had the esc on the arms, I could tell if it was overheating.

Yeah, my daughter did have fun. I was worried she would get in the way.

@ruouttaurmind about recalibrating, I might do that if servo testing indicates it can spin it up without a problem.

@ruouttaurmind I took off the top of the quad to get access the servo wires. I gave the motor full gas and it does NOT spin. All it does is what it does in the video - move back and forth or pulse back and forth. The motor indeed gets warm - very warm. My next step is to take the case off the motor. This case (not sure what the tech term for that is called) holds the magnets around the inner ones. There is no more binding than than the other three motors. Have absolutely no idea what the problem is. What are the three wires to the motor (I can google it)? It's most likely the esc or motor. I don't suspect one over the other yet.

@garyhgaryh The three wires are all power wires. These motors operate on what's called "three phase synchronous power". Basically, the speed is controlled by phase shifting the supply signal.

A bad pulse signal from the ESC would absolutely cause a warm motor... but then so could half a dozen other things.

Because it's relatively easy to calibrate the ESC once you've got your decks apart, I really encourage you to do that before spending any more effort on it. It's not a guaranteed solution, but it certainly will help rule out a troubleshooting path. Occam's Razor and all that.

@ruouttaurmind calibrating won't work. I ran the motor on the servo tester and the motor won't spin at all. Calibrating won't fix it - it won't even find the lowest idle speed of that motor. But you're right, I should at least try it since I have no other options, but I believe I'm just going to come back and tell you it failed because the motor won't spin up at all. I'll do this tonight just to cover my bases.

@garyhgaryh I have a bad ESC that's causing this same motor action on my quad. I swapped it to another motor and it did the same thing so I know in my case it's the ESC. Hopefully you can try something similar. don't know how you connected your ESC's to power and to the motors but mine are all bullet connectors for easy exchange. Have you tried swapping ESC's?

@DJMajickMan I have not tried swapping the esc. It would involve unsoldering it which I don't have time to do at the moment since I would have to set up my station again. You have links to the bullet connectors you are using? I think having those would be the way to go for debugging purposes and want to convert over.

@garyhgaryh this is what I got

@DJMajickMan Thanks! I think from my experience, I can see the benefits of using the butt connector. Even @ruottaurmind will be using connectors for his build. Thanks!

@DJMajickMan Are these butt connectors shielded? If I put them side by side, touching, I assume it won't cross conduct. Let me know.

@garyhgaryh Heat shrink them. They are not shielded, as it's a solid metal piece, until you put heat shrink tubing on them.

@DJMajickMan Thanks!

@DJMajickMan I think you're right. It's most likely my ESC. I say this because I was looking at "bad esc" videos and most of them do the same thing as my bad propeller - it doesn't spin and makes beeping noises.

@DJMajickMan I will be ordering these:
http://www.amazon.com/Vktech-Gold-plated-Bullet-Connector-40pcs/dp/B00DGL1T1O/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

@garyhgaryh great find I'm ordering some too. Can't have to many when you keep building quads :). Just ordered the KH250 kit from readytoflyquads. Went with the base model not the upgraded one. Figure it can always be upgraded after I get good.

@DJMajickMan I ordered 120pcs (60 pairs) just in case I build more quads :). Tell us about the KH250 (cost, link, etc).

@garyhgaryh KH250 I went with the somewhat basic model. total is $116.50. And I also bought a Gimbal from them and a few other things.

@DJMajickMan I've seen this link before (from you most likely). How's your quad project going? Got the remote working? What's left to do?

@garyhgaryh remote is working, just have to replace a bad ESC. Waiting on the part now.

@DJMajickMan Just ran across this interesting motor bullet connector.Too big for the little 250's, but looks interesting. They're $2 a set at Banggood.

@ruouttaurmind yeah only flaw I see is it's not easy to swap if you've reversed your leads and your CCW motor is going CW you have to de-solder and re-solder two of the connectors. :(

@DJMajickMan Ya, I guess you've got to have those ducks in a row before you start soldering.

@DJMajickMan @ruouttaurmind They look kinda like xt-60 connectors to me, but triangular. Good point about reversing your leads - that, in itself, is a good reason to stay with the bullet connectors. Why not go with smaller 2 or 3mm bullet connectors? I ordered the 3.5mm only because it was a good deal and @DJMajickMan 's link was for 3.5mm so I thought why not.... Are most people using 3.5mm?

@garyhgaryh Give me a few minutes and I'll get you an answer on this...

@garyhgaryh Wait a minute... I just re-read what you're asking. They ALL should be open circuits from the motor base (basically where the mounting screw attaches the motor to the mount) to any of the three phases.

If you're getting a circuit there, you have a short between a mounting screw and the armature. Try backing off your mounting screws by a few turns and check again. Either the mounting screw is touching the armature windings or the armature is shorting to the base somewhere.

I noted the screws included with my motors were all about .003 to .004 too long and I was wary not to tighten these until I put spacers between the CF arm and the motor base. On each screw I used washers. Two .0025 washers, placing one between the motor and the CF arm, and the other I put on the screw before inserting it in the mounting hole.

@garyhgaryh There is some similarity between the behavior of your motor and my bad motor. Mine doesn't make as loud a pulsing sound, but the general behavior is similar. Mine gets VERY VERY hot very quickly. Skip to 00:25 for the meat.

EDIT: I just noticed... the ESC on this one gets very hot as well. On the three good ones, the ESC's get warm. This one gets too hot to touch with only that :15 of operation shown in the video. But... the ESC is good. I moved it to another motor and it works fine.

@ruouttaurmind Before running these measurements I expected every motor to be like motor 2. But I expected motor 1 to have the odd #'s. I'll try backing off the screws/bolts

@garyhgaryh Yes, that's similar behavior. Not sure what the pulsing noise is all about... The prop nut gets hot and so does the screws that hold the motor to the arm. None of this was the case before the crash, but I can see the crash pushing the screw deeper into the winds.

@garyhgaryh I'm with you, I don't think calibration will solve the problem, but it's easy enough to do. Connect your servo tester, set it to max throttle, connect power. The ESC should pulse the motor and you'll hear some beeps. Turn tester to lowest throttle position. More beeps from the motor. That's it. You're done. Try turning up your throttle control on the tester and see what happens! :-)

@garyhgaryh I'm not sure what these measurements are supposed to show-there shouldn't be an electrical connection between the battery plug and the motor mounts. I did them to check for your comparison and got open circuits at all locations, to motor mount screws and to the motor shafts, from both positive and negative terminals.

Since the carbon fiber frame is conductive I would expect that if you have a circuit to one part of the frame (a short?) you should have it everywhere. That's what makes your motor 2 measurements weird to me.

But while you've got the multimeter out, on your bad motor, if you measure between each pair of contact points for the motor wires on the esc with the motor connected, you should get a reasonably constant resistance (the resistance of that set of windings). If you have an open circuit between any pair of contact points that would indicate a broken connection to the motor. And if one set of windings isn't energizing that would make the motor not turn on its own, and the beeping (vibrating) and twitching might be consistent with it trying to respond to the other two sets of windings without the third to complete the cycle. That's my theory, anyway.

@ruouttaurmind Yeah I already hooked up my tester this afternoon and did the full range motion on the tester. No go - no complete spin - just alot of beeping and pulsing of the motor. Guess what? I tried connecting GCS to my CC3D (just to do the calibrate so I can say I got that covered) and it's not recognized! Lights are flashing. Turn on the f12e and I see the blinking and can do what I can do with the remote (arm, disarm, throttle up (sans motor 1)). This is starting to get interesting.

@djslack I measured those points just to see if there is consistent readings and obviously not. I got shorts on Motor 1, 3, and 4 from the mounting screw to the neg bat terminal and about 10 ohms on the positive terminal. I expected open circuits on all. All motors except #1 appears to spin well. Thanks for taking measurements and confirming your readings are all open circuits. I have a short somewhere and my cc3d is not being recognized (but it's working with my f12e which is weird). My computer has gone through two updates and may have wrote over a system file needed by GCS. I'm going to reinstall it again just to make sure I have all the right system files and it wasn't over written by my win8 updates.

@garyhgaryh That is interesting. I didn't expect that. Does it show up in the Windows Device Manager at all? (should be listed under Ports as "CopterControl Virtual COM Port")

@ruouttaurmind Yes, it's listed when plugged in. I took the FC off the quad (RIP). I'm taking this quad apart. I didn't expect the FC to be none responsive. I tried updating the firmware and it says "not fully connected" to the cc3d. It appears to be working though as the lights are blinking and it responds to the remote. Just does not connect to the computer. I reinstalled GCS and no go. I got about an hour worth of fun on this project just flying the thing! It really didn't take a long time to install if I were to add all the actual build time - the most time consuming part was waiting for parts :). I might order another one for parts - $85. I'm sure I'll need a arm or two later (although I can print them from thingiverse). Now that I might need an esc/motor/fc it makes sense to have parts to swap in/out.

@ruouttaurmind btw, i did back out all the screws, but in order for me to get an open circuit the screws are backed out so far it's almost off the motor (but still threaded). That says alot right there, but there is no way I can fly it like this as the bolts are not tight enough to the arm.

@garyhgaryh Yeah, that's really strange. A short to the frame like that with 10 ohms resistance between positive and negative would make me think you'd notice battery issues, too.

Does it actually measure 10 ohms between positive and negative at the battery connector? With the measurements you show from your tests, it would be the expected result.

If it does, check all your wiring in between the panels -- maybe something got exposed and is shorting to the frame. If it doesn't, something weirder than we think is going on.

I spent some time fighting my cc3d not being recognized due to a bad USB cable, but I'm assuming you're using the same cable you used successfully in the past. When it's hooked up, go to device manager in Windows. Do you have anything under game controllers? That's where the cc3d should show up. If it is there, right click on it and uninstall the device, then unplug and replug it and see if it installs again and is recognized.

@djslack I will try another usb cable, but it's the same one I've been using.

The resistance between the +/- on the xt-60 connector is 2.7kohms. What do you have between those terminals?

I redid all the measurements (had the range too high in my initial measurements).

Motor 1: (motor mount nut to xt60 terminal)
Xt-60 negative: 0
Xt-60 positive: ~2.7 kohms
[This motor is all at infinity if I backout all the screws, but it's not flyable this way]
Motor 2: (motor mount nut to xt60 terminal)
Xt-60 negative: infinity
Xt-60 positive: infinity
Motor 3: (motor mount nut to xt60 terminal)
Xt-60 negative: 0
Xt-60 positive: ~2.7 kohms
Motor 4: (motor mount nut to xt60 terminal)
Xt-60 negative: 0
Xt-60 positive: ~2.7 kohms

@garyhgaryh Your message above makes it sound like you've pronounced this one DOA, to be scavenged for parts?

@garyhgaryh i show 2.68k ohms between positive and negative, so that's dead on with your results. So somewhere you have battery ground shorting to the frame which is not altogether terrible, but not as designed. The weird thing is why you don't see it on motor 2. If i had to guess you should see those same readings at any metal or cf point on the frame.

@djslack Good point. Since the CF frame is conductive, you'd think the ground loop would extend through all four arms.

@ruouttaurmind I'm not giving up on this project. I'm just going to take apart the quad to do an analysis of the current condition of the quad, what happened and check the solder joints. I may take the motor apart too - there is a c-clip at the back of the motor on the shaft which will allow me to detach the rotating part from the actual motor. I already miss flying that quad.

Any ideas about the cc3d not being recognized?

@djslack I'll check the reading on other CF points on the frame later today.

@garyhgaryh If the FC does what it should via the TX, it shows up in Device Manager, and OpenPilot GCS is pointing to the correct virtual COM port but still fails to connect, I guess I'd...

Delete FC from the Device Manager, reboot the PC, then BEFORE starting GCS, connect the FC and let Windows rediscover and reinstall the driver and assign a COM port. Verify the COM port and start GCS. Make sure GCS is looking at the correct COM port. If that doesn't solve the issue...

1. Try a different USB cable. Even though you're using the same USB cable you were successfully using previously, try a different cable. Possibly even try a different USB port on your PC. If that doesn't solve the issue...

2. Uninstall GCS, reboot, then download a fresh copy of GCS. Make sure you select the older version, v15.02.02 or older (the latest version, v15.05 does NOT support CC3D; if you let GCS do a self-upgrade at any prior point, this could be the cause of your problem). If that still does not solve the issue...

3. Try downloading and installing GCS on a different PC. If still no luck...

4. I guess I'd have to suspect the USB port on the FC? Remove the plastic housing from the FC and visually inspect the USB to PCB connections for damage. It's unlikely you'll be able to see anything meaningful, less likely you'd be able to repair, but at least if you did identify something you'd have piece of mind and know what the issue is.

I'll be surprised if you get to #5 before resolving the problem, but if you do, I'd say the only possible remedy would be to replace the FC, as you've eliminated all other possible causes.

Resist the temptation to skip steps, as it will introduce noise into your test data and lead to holes in your results.

And PS: @shawn, WTF am I doing wrong with the Numbered List feature that makes it show up so screwy when I hit "Say It"? It looks just fine when I'm typing: auto-numbering, indented, the whole shebang. But as soon as I save the message, the formatting goes to hell and I get what you see above!

Any guesses what I'm doing wrong?

@ruouttaurmind Thanks Dave, I will try these suggestions. I already miss flying the mini quad! It was addicting/challenging for me.

@garyhgaryh It looked like a total hoot man! SO FAST. I'm afraid what mine will be like with the bigger motors and larger rotors. I might have to tweak down the power so I don't wind up losing track of it. The last thing I need is ANOTHER crash under my belt. I'll wind up with the NTSB investigating me and taking away my flight privileges! LOL!

@ruouttaurmind Today I took a copy of security footage from my house of me and my sidekick (my daughter) having a ball of a time with the zmr 250. I was cleaning house when I realize I have most of the flights recorded. Only thing is: Where the zmr crashed into the side of the garage was not an area covered by the camera :(.

@garyhgaryh Bummer. I always enjoy the forensic examination of my disaster footage. :-)

@garyhgaryh I noticed they've added quite a few more kit configurations now.

@ruouttaurmind Yeah i noticed they had a similar config the kit you bought with the 2204 motors for $84..... hmmm... tempting.