I'm probably missing some important point, but...
10Consider a future, within a generation or three, ie. while people from now are still alive and a functional part of society, a future where we (humans on Earth) have made contact with intelligent alien races (and not killed ourselves in the process)… Aliens that quickly become an integral part of our society. Aliens that are pretty much the same as humans… except that they have green skin.
I wonder if we will then consider it racist to have used green makeup for halloween and other costumes?
What if those aliens have fairly human-colored skin, except for green or blue eye lids? We will then say that the women of today who wear green or blue eye shadow are racist or guilty of cultural appropriation?
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There will undoubtedly be those on both sides of that issue who will be unequivocally convinced of their own opinions. Not that that answers your question at all.
What if the aliens showed up dressed up as humans or white/brown/black face paint? Would appropriating earth culture be considered equally offensive?
@mike808 It has already happened on Doctor Who, with the Slitheen. I brief excerpt from the episode where they are unmasked (more like unskinned):
@baqui63 @mike808 I mean. He mostly killed then though. There was a lot of offense. Just about the whole conquer earth thing.
@mike808 there was an episode of Amazing Stories (I think) in which aliens come to earth dressed as and acting like people from I Love Lucy because they saw the broadcasts and thought it was representative of earthlings. However, by the time the broadcasts got to their planet and then they arrived on earth, it was already the 80s.
@mml666 There are serious thought exercises around the notion that if there are aliens, and they are not friendly, have we been advertising our presence with detectable radio wave emissions?
Are we just prey making too much noiseand giving away our position (and lack of technological advancement)?
@mike808 exactly. If they have the technology to enable intergalactic travel, they are obviously more advanced than we are, and who says they are benevolent.
@mml666 Inter-galactic travel not necessary. Merely inter-stellar, unless you meant intra-galactic travel.
We should be vewy, vewy quiet. The aliens could be hunting wabbits.
Seeing how robot discrimination is already a thing …
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/27/now-is-the-time-to-figure-out-the-ethical-rights-of-robots-in-the-workplace-.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/08/rise-of-the-racist-robots-how-ai-is-learning-all-our-worst-impulses
@narfcake
Isn’t there a quote somewhere about the sins of the fathers?
It’s all more than a bit overboard. People should be responsible for what they do, not what others before them did.
Does someone with dark hair bleaching their hair offend those of Northern European ancestry?
Whole thing drives me nuts.
@Cerridwyn I mean some girl with cute dark hair bleaching it blond is a travesty. I’m not sure if that offends me. But it’s her hair so whatever
If the aliens are a marginalized people whose appearance and culture are being treated as a costume, yeah probably.
Imitation is not appropriation.
It is the sincerest form of flattery. Grandma told me that, and she was seldom wrong.
We as a culture have lost sight of that.
@2many2no If Cher in that sexy outfit is wrong, I don’t want to be right.
@2many2no
Depends on the imitation. This gets complex. Our current “social rules” don’t handle this well yet.
@2many2no @f00l The social rules according to whom? Demanded by whom? Imposed by whom? If you don’t fit my social rules, do I get to demand that you conform to them? Do you get to demand that I confirm to yours? Who gets to decide things for everyone? This is the real issue here. The arguments on specific issues are in fact a distraction from it.
@2many2no @ybmuG
I was using “social rules” as a casual shorthand term for a common social understanding of how to behave. Not as a reference to some sort of list of absolute and final rules.
“Social rules” (as I meant this term) change over time, and sometimes there is little common understanding and agreement over how to view now unaccepted conduct that was practiced in the past and was accepted them (or accepted with reservations then).
“social rules” are always a mess. Everyone and every group and every region and every culture always have differences from others, so the total is always a huge confusing melange of often poorly integrated common understandings.: with agreed-upon “rules” across a culture always being at least somewhat fluid and contentious.
And sometimes being extremely contentious.
We don’t have, and won’t have, complete and understood algorithms for social conduct. Even complex mathematical modeling for this will always be imprecise, within our current understanding of how to do mathematical models.
Let alone will we have complete understanding and agreement for conduct that was once largely accepted as “humorous” to some, if possibly in poor taste; but had lately become to be seen by most people as being offensive. Not until the issue sorts itself out across the culture.
In large area of life we have commonly understood rules and customs that we mostly agree upon well enough to manage our conduct and understanding of what’s accepted, without much controversy.
In other areas where cultural understanding are changing, the “rules” (as I meant the term) will change also.
So … Your rules. And my rules. And commentators’ rules (including our moms and dads etc). And everyone’s.
How could the total be other than a mess, when we, over time, become more aware of how to be empathetic to others, and also become more aware of how to protect our own social and emotional dignity in interactions?
And when people just disagree?
I suppose this is an area where cultures will hopefully, “muddle-thru” to something better.
(As opposed to evolving toward increasingly nasty or bullying norms of evolving social conduct, which doesn’t sound pleasant to me.)
Tl;dr:
Basically I just meant the term as a casual shorthand ref to the mess that is “the aggregate of how we all understand that we should behave and what we understand that we should expect from
others”.
Not a ref to actual hard “rules”.
And it’s a mess.
@2many2no @ybmuG
Also
Exactly. Kinda.
Both a distraction, and the possible path toward a new common (to most, one hopes) cultural agreement about how to react to and deal with stuff.
Will any of this work itself out? In a “good way”, according to the understandings of what we think of as the majority of good folk (who I believe are the majority of us), who are competent and decent and have compassion and also aren’t pushovers? whatever that might be?
I hope so.
@2many2no @f00l Understand and appreciate your explanation, much of which I think is a fair description of the issues. Unfortunately, there are a number of folks who do not share such a view of the construct of “social rules” as you have described them, instead feeling empowered to simply impose theirs as, obviously, superior and acting as if they are in fact absolutes, not just for them but for everyone. It’s all great when it’s things you’re in agreement about. But heaven help you if not.
To be clear, I do have very strong beliefs about many things and I do believe in absolutes when it comes to truth. Otherwise the term is meaningless. But I also understand that not everyone shares the same convictions, but that civil discourse is helpful in fostering understanding. While nothing new, what I am particularly disgusted by is the lack of civility. In that sense I see a degradation of social norms, not an improvement, but that may just be a factor of my experiences. Either way, there’s no excuse for that no matter how right you think you are (speaking genetically here, not directed at you personally!)
@2many2no @f00l @ybmuG
whoops. How awkward.
@2many2no @f00l @therealjrn Oh man! I missed that!
@2many2no @f00l @ybmuG I’m usually posting from my laptop, but I’ve had to turn off predictive text on my phone because it is so easy to generally make those kind of mistakes.
/it’s funny because it happened to you, not me. haha
@2many2no @f00l @therealjrn it’s always funnier when it happens to someone else!
@2many2no @f00l @therealjrn @ybmuG It gave me a laugh to start Monday. Thanks! DYAC strikes again.
@2many2no @f00l @ybmuG Thanks for using ‘whom’. Now I can go to sleep happy.
These guys who are shaving their heads are appropriating my culture.
@therealjrn damn straight. I was getting buzz cuts when I was six. Then since college and cut it myself. Nazis better stop appropriating my culture.
@unksol Oh ho ho! Look at mister privilege there getting a buzz cut. Did you ever stop to think some of us don’t have any hair to cut? Can you look past your SuperCuts privilege?
@therealjrn dad did the haircuts. I’m to cheap to pay anyone to do them. Don’t think I’ve ever been to a Supercuts. Being bald would save me some trouble although I’ll admit the option is nice I suppose if I ever have a wife to tell me how she likes it.
@therealjrn @unksol I’m thinking of adding, specifically, baldness to the list of things I cannot be blamed for. I think it falls under acts of God, like hurricanes.
@JnKL @therealjrn @unksol No. Not God. You blame your parents for their gift of genes. And @JnKL too since, well, you know… that goat thing.
@JnKL @Kidsandliz @therealjrn Dave? Dave is that you?
@Kidsandliz @therealjrn @unksol Oh. If it isn’t an act of God, never mind.
Blame the scapegoat.
Blame ME!
@JnkL picks the captcha photos
I’m a Wal-Mart shopper and I’m tired of being mocked on the internet.
@therealjrn So this was you?
@mike808 You just don’t get it Mike. Until you have walked a mile in my house slippers, stretch pants and tube top you will never get it. When you marginalize one of our people, you marginalize all of us.
It’s a Wal-Mart thing, I can’t expect you to understand through your Target privilege.
Besides, your picture isn’t even from Wal-Mart.
@mike808 @therealjrn
No pajama pants?
You poseur.
/giphy Walmart poseur
@f00l @mike808 What is with you guys? Do you not get it? Now I’ve got some f00l talking about pajama pants and posting someone in a dress. You can’t even get your put-downs right. That’s even more offensive.
@mike808 @therealjrn
I reply on /giphy to make my “Walmart sense” for me.
Deal with it.
/giphy Walmart
/giphy pajama pants
/giphy poseur
@f00l @mike808 I’m outta here, I’ve got to go get a jar of olives, a pair of shoes and a case of motor oil at 1AM. I’m going to go be with my people.
@mike808 @therealjrn
There ya go.
Point proven and case closed.
/giphy Walmart slippers
@mike808 @therealjrn
Hate to tell you this, lest it bring you to live in fear:
But, re Walmart: at 1am, *I’m your people.”
/giphy Walmart
See ya there! I’ll wave!
/giphy Walmart wave
@mike808 @therealjrn
PS
Right now if you are somewhere nearish to Tulsa, we are at this moment less than 500 miles apart. So, of you kinda tend to go to that Super-Extra-Supreme-Walmart out on the edge of town, we’re prob in the same store, at the same time, fairly often.
/giphy Walmart Time Space
/giphy Walmart contiguity
@therealjrn My local Walmart isn’t open at 1 am.
Also: “Last year police were called to the store and three other Tulsa Walmarts just under 2,000 times.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-walmart-crime/
@narfcake @therealjrn
You poor thing. You seem to live in an underserved “publicly-worn-pajama-pants area”.
Ouch.
(stereotypes, can be funny. Please excuse/forgive my use).
@narfcake @therealjrn Walmarts are well known for shifting business costs onto the communities they locate in. From reduced consumer choice by running local businesses into the ground, extracting local taxes through TIF programs (intentionally creating a “blighted” area and then testifying about how they can’t make a go of it without a taxpayer subsidy), and pushing healthcare and social welfare costs by targeting hiring people in those programs to qualify for the tax breaks, but not paying them enough to get out of the poverty that qualifies them for those programs. They become crime magnets, and require a disproportionate amount of taxpayer-funded emergency and police services, and often remain blights in the communities they profit from.
They are essentially wealth extraction devices and giant Chinese vending machines in many communities – a net negative. I vote with my dollars.
@f00l @therealjrn
Did you find the olives?
@f00l @mike808 @therealjrn Oh, that’s special!
@f00l @mike808 @ybmuG Why thank you!
@f00l @mike808 @therealjrn um, um, um…yeah speechless
@f00l @therealjrn @tinamarie1974
Apparently not.
@mike808 @narfcake @therealjrn
Your Walmart critique is something that I’m aware of and v concerned about.
But … at 2am they are the option. I also have errands to deal with. Yes, at 2am sometimes.
And for quick in/out when I know they have something and I know where it is in the store and am in a hurry, I go there. I don’t boycott them. I try to use them sparingly.
Re the local environment around their stores, it seems to be steadily improving. They have freshened to many stores, and employees who seemed miserable to be working there a few years back now seem far more content. I have actually asked a few employees (while outside the store and not within anyone’s hearing) how it was working there.
Were they treated decently?
Did they get predictable shift assignments so that they could plan the rest of their lives?
How were the pay and benefits?
Were the workloads and the work pace expectations humane?
So far I have gotten (within the last two years only) positive responses to this.
Of course they might have given me pat answers, believing me to be an undercover corporate shill, but I didn’t get that vibe. And that accords with results of some formal academic or news org work satisfaction surveys done in the last two years.
So I feel less guilty shipping there sometimes than I otherwise might. The workers I have spoken to mostly say similar to “things have really improved for us compared to back when”
I’m not saying Walmart is wonderful. They have a long way to go. And I don’t know how many of the changes I’ve heard claimed, if real, were local vs national.
And I don’t know what they’ve gotten in terms of local tax concessions and the like. Most stores hereabouts have been here for decades.
Just … much of the bad about Walmart is bad about many business other than Walmart as well. Is symptomatic of widespread issues.
And maybe Walmart is doing a little better.
Or not.
The probs re Walmart that you mentioned are now probs re many, if not most, “line” jobs in the US now.
So I would like to see a serious, civil, respectful, non-trolled, non-manipulative national conversation about this.
Ha ha. I would also like to have similar to Serena William’s physical fitness, and have a match for Warren Buffet’s investment profile. Ha ha.
I’m sure all that will happen just any day now.
/youtube any day now live Dylan
TL;DR
@f00l I think, anecdotally, things are better for the rank and file workers in recent years. Management likely figured out that the model of maximum extraction from their suppliers, their store location’s taxpayers, their workers, and the federal government subsidizing their worker healthcare and low wages was not a sustainable business model.
My take is it is a bit like the domestic abuser saying they’re sorry and getting counseling will make up for the abuse they’ve already inflicted.
It’s a start, but is not equivalent.
@therealjrn
/giphy don’t read that!
@mike808
It’s also Walmart and so very many other companies.
@f00l @mike808
Maybe even the company hosting your anti-Wal-Mart hate-speech web site. Oh, what a dilemma.
@mike808 @therealjrn
Possibly.
Oh dear. What to do?
I’m flummoxed.
I guess I’ll go annoy someone who’s prob near Tulsa.
/giphy oklahoma
BTW I kinda enjoy visiting the Walmarts around here. People are nice there. Both costumes and employees.
Not a bad human experience.
@f00l @mike808 You keep your ass on your side of the Red River missy. We don’t like your kind up here.
@mike808 @therealjrn
I presume you are using “the pretend royal we” here, and are really speaking only for yourself.
All the Okies I know who aren’t YOU adore me. And I have a bunch of standing invites.
I just got an informal invite to apply for a specific position in OK. Not that far from Tulsa.
Prob won’t. Family is here.
But, might!
Ha ha, if I do move there, I’ll make sure all you grumpy types are aware of the atmosphere changes I bring with me. Designed specifically to annoy grumps.
Just for you!
Anyhow …
I’ll be sure to hex you strongly when I’m in the vicinity. Sometimes all that works better up close.
@f00l @mike808 @therealjrn My Wal-Mart experience had varied greatly by region. When I lived in the Mid-Atlantic, the vast majority of Wal-Mart stores were really unpleasant. The aisles were too narrow, they were too crowded, it was hard to find what you were after, it would take half an hour to check out, and they were not open 24 hours. There was no “quick trip” to Wal-Mart. Some were definitely better than others, though.
In the south, they seem to typically be open 24 hours, have wider aisles and are less crowded, are better-organized and, while checkout lines are still sometimes a problem, they aren’t as bad.
@f00l @mike808 I know the anti-hex sign.
@f00l @mike808 @narfcake @therealjrn re: that shot of Dylan - never realized how much in that shot he looks like Tom Baker of Dr Who.
@Limewater @mike808 @therealjrn
Esp visiting the Walmarts in larger towns in rural-areas, or in rural-area county seats can be quite fun.
@mike808 @narfcake @therealjrn @ybmuG
/giphy Dr who Tom Baker
/giphy Bob dylan
@f00l @Limewater @mike808 Around here, they rolled out the remodels awhile ago. Lower shelving, wider isles, improved lighting. And approximately 1 billion self check-outs to one staffed checkout.
@mike808 @therealjrn
Re anti-hex sign and so forth
I’m sure it works wonders.
Yeah.
/giphy hook em horns
@f00l @Limewater @mike808 @therealjrn We were recently in one in rural PA which we were quite impressed with. Especially since it was really the only option above essentially a convenience store for miles (and in unfamiliar territory for us).
@f00l @mike808 @narfcake @ybmuG Oh yeah, I forgot tell Narf we’re down to one 24hr Walmart. I’m not going to tell a certain somebody which one it is though.
@mike808 @narfcake @therealjrn @ybmuG
We share the same Walmart in spirit tho.
And within ultimate transcendental reality, all Walmarts (or all nice Walmarts) are ONE.
Even tho Walmart is from Arkansas originally; if you’re there within one, a little part of Texas and the Longhorns are there with you.
To make every experience just a little bit better for you.
/image texas longhorn
You’re welcome.
@f00l @mike808 @therealjrn A co-worker made The People of Walmart. We were appalled, but unsurprised.
@f00l @mike808 @narfcake @therealjrn @ybmuG
“I’m only a humble curator.”
@therealjrn Years ago Leno would read local newspaper articles for laughs.
One was on a dollar store opening up, and one citizen they interviewed said she was really glad for the dollar store so she wouldn’t have to get dressed up to go to Walmart.
@f00l @mike808 @therealjrn Hey, trains!
@blaineg @therealjrn I sure do miss ‘Headlines’. Best part of his show.
@mike808 - I’m with you. Never set foot in a WM.
And I’m not speaking to our Mayor since he leaked plans and allowed them to submit plans hours before the city council voted to restrict businesses of that size.
You lost me right here “while people from now are still alive and a functional part of society”. You can decide which people I mean.
TL;dr: No it’s not, the other is.
This is not a great analogy, as current folks would not have, and could not have, any idea the aliens existed or what color their skin or eyelids were. Painting yourself green nowadays and stumbling around on holidays is just a reflection of other fictional stereotypes we’ve constructed (ghouls, swamp creatures, Shrek, drunk leprechans, etc.) and know to be fabrications (Jar Jar does not count here).
On the other hand, knowing full well (or having the ability to know, especially if you’re a frat-boy at some ivy league school) about African-American history, the story of the native American peoples, or of the Asians brought here to slave on the railroads, and painting yourself black/red/yellow in an attempt to characterize and ridicule other cultures based on attitudes meant to keep them as a subset of society - that’s racist.
@stolicat I think folks get hung up on the “ridicule” part, as many instances are intended more as achieving some additional “authenticity” or something and not directly as a form of ridicule.
People will say they didn’t mean for it to ridicule or belittle, and it isn’t necessarily ridiculing or belittling someone.
What it is always doing, however, is treating skin color as part of a costume. Costumes embody something fictional or somehow outside the wearer’s reality, something the wearer is not. But there are those for whom this aspect of the costume (skin color) is not only a reality and involuntary, but a primary factor in how they are identified and then subject to marginalization by.
The offense stems from the wearer presenting it as a light part of a fantasy that for others is a reality with heavy perceptual and discriminatory consequences.
@ThomasF well said - and important to note that “I didn’t mean to offend anyone” is not an adequate response if not accompanied by “and I understand that it’s hurtful, I’m sorry and I won’t do that again.”
@stolicat @ThomasF
Should people pre-emptively censor their words and actions based on what others may perceive as offensive (or will, decades into the future) when they have no control over anyone else’s life experience or interpretation of what they are about to say or do - decades into the future?
So, comedy or offensive? Should there be an equal outrage and expectation of apology and remorse? If not, why not, by the arguments posited above?
Pointing the finger at individual actions is a distraction from the really, really hard (and politically dangerous) work of removing and dismantling the institutionalized racism or race-based fascism that is deeply embedded into almost every aspect of “civilization” and the creation of “other”-ness based on visually verifiable attributes. The U.S. is a unique extreme of this now due to our country’s history, but is most certainly not alone, unfortunately.
@mike808 @stolicat Preemptive censorship isn’t really possible unless there is already some knowledge in the perpetrator that someone would find their action distasteful, irreverent, or insulting. The ideal, I think, is that the action is abstained from if they realize this ahead of time, and if the action occurs anyways and people do show the aforementioned negative reactions, that the perpetrator learn not to take that action again.
The perpetrator must then be shown not only what was right or wrong by others, but also the underlying why. Otherwise, without a clear understanding, the perpetrator may continue to see it as an arbitrary judgement or even a personal attack.
There is a horrible sensationalization occurring as far as digging up past actions and showing them off for public scrutiny, but these past actions should be viewed under a few lights, namely 1.) did the behavior continue in some way following this documented action and 2.) is there justifiable evidence at the time of the past action that indicate that the action would not have been considered right within a greater population, even back then.
It has been known for several decades in general North American society that painting one’s skin color to emulate a marginalized group is not advisable. Despite the action having occurred in the past, the action still likely shouldn’t have been considered a good move at the time. It also brings up concerns as to the perpetrator’s cultural and social development, for something in their development as a person led them to think the action was justifiable despite the climate. In essence, something led them to believe the action was okay, and that something may not have been dealt with. If the developmental impetus leading to that action was never truly addressed, it could likely lead to questionable actions even in the future, which brings concerns/scrutiny in the present.
@mike808 @stolicat @ThomasF There’s a difference between a person who does something “bad” because of youth, lack of experience, or the culture they grew up in - and a person who knowingly did something bad because they never thought they would be brought to account for it. The first may be forgivable but not the second. The second is like someone who committed murder in 1970 objecting to being caught with DNA evidence since they didn’t know in 1970 that such technology would be possible in their lifetime. Murder was wrong in 1970 and they knew it. Racism, misogyny, and homophobia were wrong in 1970 and everyone knew it, but the victims didn’t have the social or political power make it stop. Now that these groups are gaining the power to do something to the perps, it’s a bit late for them to say: “But you can’t hold me accountable for what I did decades ago! I didn’t know it was wrong!” Of course they knew it was wrong. They just thought they would never be held accountable for their actions.
@mike808 @rockblossom @ThomasF I think the issue with many of the current kerfuffles over public officials/celebrities (or wannabe ones) having done something racially or culturally offensive in their youth is not as much that they should be punished for it now (when, presumably, they should know better) but that the public (and voters) want to know that they recognize now that it wasn’t right and would no longer do that. It’s part of personal growth as you mature, probably all of us have things we did when we were young that make us groan and shudder when we remember them, and in many cases we make efforts to make amends for those actions.
I think the media (both sides) often sensationalizes these cases and presents them as if they need punishment or that it disqualifies them for whatever, when the issue is that people just want to know if the person has learned that it’s wrong, regrets it and doesn’t do that anymore. A statement of “I’m sorry if I offended anyone” isn’t an apology, when they know that they did indeed offend/hurt someone. A lot of these cases could’ve been handled right up front with a real apology, which would be received with real forgiveness, but regrettably those aspects of American culture are out of style right now.
@mike808 @stolicat @ThomasF I like this thought on offense.
@blaineg @stolicat @ThomasF
Agree. Only one’s self is responsible for one’s feelings. It is a bit of a cop-out to agree to each person’s autonomy and yet abdicate their own. And worse, to judge others after-the-fact expecting them to have considered your future offense and feelings retroactively.
If someone else is responsible for your offense, then someone else must also be responsible for your happiness and pleasure, yes? Is there no there there?
@blaineg @mike808 @stolicat @ThomasF
It is true that one may choose not to be offended by what is “apparently offensive”.
I think, in many jurisdictions, first responders do not have the right to be “offended”, in that sense, when they are on the job.
However; someone who offers deliberate or casual or unconscious “social or personal offense” is committing, whether aware of it or not, an act of potential of actual aggression.
And this may reinforce horrible customs and status quo injustice,
(Non-white adult males being called “boy”;
or vicious catcalls again females;
for instance)
Furthermore it increases stress for the target individual and for some bystanders.
And if the target individual ignores the provocation, they thereby reinforce the status quo. Asked internalize their stress.
If the target protests the provocation, they often get into a stressful and time consuming contest in which they often are further targeted, and often they wind up losing.
And their protest possibly marks them as a “troublemaker” and thus potentially negatively impacts their financial and other personal opportunities.
And it can discourage other persons from being close to them, as the controversy then potentially saps the energy and well being of everyone involved.
Please don’t pretend that giving social and personal “offense” are cost-free acts, unless you wish to prove the point by publicly practicing what we now recognize to be some truly offensive conduct that was fairly normal in this country within the last 70 years.
And once you have engaged in that “public offense” conduct, in public, with an appropriate target, I presume you will then publicly point out that it’s the other person’s decision to take offense or not.
And your responsibility will end there. Right?
Horseshit. And we all know that’s horseshit.
Unless … you don’t wanna do that because you know in your bones that such conduct is terribly wrong.
And you know in your bones that if you did such conduct, you would be doing actual harm.
“giving personal and/or social offense” - or receiving such - are tough and complex topics.
And the act of doing so is a potential strong power play against another.
No one simple algorithm is gonna cover the topic. And it’s a moving target, and prob should be such.
I’m sure we’ve all done things and told jokes we now regret.
Human condition.
Simplistic philosophical statements won’t absolve us. But we aren’t terminally guilty either.
A middle and reasonable way will be found.
I hope.
What is, or should be seen as, offensive?
How should a person respond in order to stand and hold their ground, and protest the offense, without making things worse?
What should someone do who has given offense and wishes to make amends?
What should someone do about systematic offense?
How do we work out what’s really offense and what should be ignored?
How do we work out what is only offensive to those looking to be offended?
Who is a “professional offender”?
Who is a “professional victim”?
How do we respond to these types?
Moving targets. Often our understandings and empathy - and plans of action - become more effective over time.
@blaineg, I very much like this. Thank you! Though I’m thinking that it probably does not always apply.
(@mike808 @stolicat @ThomasF)
@blaineg @mike808 @stolicat @ThomasF Thank you for that quote!
@stolicat yeah… I think we can all agree that your senario is bad. It’s more the outrage about a little kid who wants to be their favorite character from a movie. And is probably learning about that culture from that. And then the whole “omg cultural appropriation” train
Adult liars who know what they are doing are shit and trying to pretend to be something else is kind of shit. There are plenty of real examples of this in entertainment…
People who want to experience another culture and food and find something they really like and then people jump on are also not that. .
I’m just glad I’m not notable enough for someone to dig up things I’ve done in the past and try to pin them on me now.
One thing that seems to come up is that so-and-so did this thing that is horrible by 2019 standards in the 1980s, the 1990s, or even the 2000s. Times change and so do people, usually hopefully for the better. If everyone lived like they could be judged 20 years from now by whatever societal norms are then, a lot of people wouldn’t be doing a lot of interesting shit.
I also worry that if escalation continues, in your hypothetical future the people that wore green will not just have their names and careers ruined… They’ll probably be ejected from the planet post haste.
@djslack well your noted now. ATTACK!
…
Maybe it would help if we shut down the Internet.
@InnocuousFarmer you are not far wrong!
@InnocuousFarmer we don’t need to shut it down.
Some people might need a license to drive it. But free speech and all that
@unksol @ybmuG Then again, the destruction of civilization is a small price to pay for the likes of https://meh.com/forum/topics/arnold-schwarzenegger-japanese-commercials----youre-welcome
@InnocuousFarmer Sandra Boynton’s take.
@blaineg @InnocuousFarmer those all look delicious. Where do I sign up for the buffet
@blaineg I’m not sure I understand who or what Sandra Boyton is, but she probably shouldn’t use Twitter
if she doesn’t like complaining.That site was a great idea when it was a replacement for AIM messages. Before people started… using it.
Deer deer… ?
@blaineg @InnocuousFarmer I’m not sure you got the joke. It was kind of funny.
@InnocuousFarmer She’s been one of my favorite artists for decades. This kind of sums up her sense of humor.
And I highly recommend https://www.amazon.com/CHOCOLATE-Consuming-Passion-Sandra-Boynton/dp/0761185631
“Learn how to grow your own chocolate, assuming you don’t mind relocating to within 15º of the Equator. There’s even a handy guide to saying “Excuse me, where is the nearest chocolate?” in eleven languages, including Klingon. (Nook-dock YOOCH dah-PULL?)”
@blaineg @unksol I meant to say, “In summary, ‘Deer, deer’”.
When the Bugle had Andy Zaltzman doing more pun runs, maybe a year or two ago, I used to listen, stone-faced.
(edit) Heh heh, the “consuming” passion.
@blaineg @InnocuousFarmer it took me a minute but I’m laughing
@InnocuousFarmer @unksol One of her chocolate recipes starts something like: “In one olympic sized swimming pool…” and runs down the ingredient list in quantities appropriate for the container size.
And concludes with: “Serves one.”
@blaineg @InnocuousFarmer @unksol
… my wife…
@blaineg YES!!! on the serving size as long as what results is GOOD chocolate.
You are missing a very important point - hundreds of years of history.
If people painted themselves green before we knew green beings existed, they have nothing to be ashamed about or castigated for.
If these green-skinned aliens become a part of our society, and we learn from them that, in their history, they were considered “less than” by, say, blue skinned people who used to paint their skin green, in a caricature-like way, intended to mock and denigrate them and minimize their worth as sentient beings, and we learn that they find “green-face” to be highly offensive and a reminder of historical, cultural trauma to their race…
If we learn all of that, and don’t care enough about them to make “green-face” taboo in our culture which we now share with these green skinned beings, then yes, we would be some equivalent of “racist”, or at the very least, insensitive assholes who don’t deserve any respect from our new, green-skinned “friends”.
The people who wore green-face in the past, before we knew green-faced people existed could not be considered “retroactively” racist.
But to continue to dress as “little green men” after we’ve welcomed them into out society would be ignorant and insensitive.
Was that silly Halloween costume so important to you, culturally or traditionally, that you’d refuse to let it go even knowing it causes pain to other members of society?
TL;DR - It is a terribly conceived analogy that does not acknowledge the history and meaning of black-face and the affront it causes dark-skinned people.
It was a very bad look for Justin Trudeau, but he responded appropriately.
@DennisG2014 Wait why are you bringing that racist Canadian into it
Also, this is the definition of “white privilege”.
“I don’t see what the harm is. It doesn’t bother me.”
Well, of course you don’t, because you’ve never lived in a world where your skin color marked you to those of another skin color as inferior, suspect and less than human.
It is your privilege not to have, understand or even be aware of that experience.
It’s pretty damn easy as a white person to say, “I don’t think racism is really a problem any more.”
I actually think there’s a point to be made there - look at Russia, and Rwanda, and [some other country beginning with the letter R (Rhode Island?)] The casual dominance of a particular set of cultural assumptions (let’s drop the race card as soon as we can) combined with benign self-righteousness and surging populism can have some pret-ty nasty results.
One more “also” - “Cultural appropriation” is a completely different topic, and more nuanced, IMO.
The idea of cultural appropriation in music, e.g., is, IMO, bullshit - all of music, throughout history, has been “appropriation” of what came before to make something new and different.
I’m watching Ken Burns’ Country Music documentary and it is very interesting that those who know the history, regardless of their skin color, agree that it was a two way street. “Race Music” and “Hillbilly Music” as they were called at the time, borrowed elements from each other constantly and neither modern Country music nor R&B (not to mention several other genres including Rock & Roll and Hip Hop) would exist without this sharing of musical ideas.
Several of the people speaking in the documentary have made a point about taking elements of two disparate cultures and combining them to make something far grander than the sum of the parts. And the blending was not “usurped” by one culture - it benefitted all parties and flourished, and the diversity of “American Music” owes its existence to that sharing between cultures.
However, if you are going to play music influenced by, say, Indian ragas, while simultaneously dressing in traditional Indian clothing - as a white person, e.g., and make a boatload of money while never acknowledging or crediting what you are taking from Indian culture - that is going too far.
TL;DR - There’s a difference between “appropriation” and “misappropriation”.
@DennisG2014 true - I remember Paul Simon being hassled about “appropriating” the music of other cultures when Rhymin/Simon and Graceland came out, but he didn’t just copy the music - he always gave full credit to his inspirations, and brought the indigenous musicians into the studio and on tour with him to showcase and promote their music and help establish the World Music genre.
@DennisG2014 I didn’t know Ken Burns did a documentary on country music so you get a star just for that.
@DennisG2014 @unksol I bet most of you never heard of this magazine that comes from where that @f00l lives…don’t be f00led…she’s an admitted WalMart shopper:
https://gardenandgun.com/articles/ken-burns-eight-year-dive-country-music/
@unksol I’m enjoying it. Never been a hardcore country fan (not a fan of the contemporary stuff at all), but I know the major players and have a smattering that I listen to regularly.
Plenty of revelations for me though.
Bonus for me is all the ‘reverse-references’ to O, Brother Where Art Thou?
Especially in the episode set in the depression - same songs, images, characters; it’s like looking into the well that the Coen brothers drew from.
It’s airing now, 1/2 way through the series. I’m sure you can find the 4 episodes that have already aired wherever you get your PBS.
“Check your local listings”
edit: (would it be ‘references from O, Brother?’ Couldn’t figure out how to say that,
)
@DennisG2014 @therealjrn @unksol
Garden and gun mag? From FW?
Will be of interest to much of the family. Many are hunters.
@DennisG2014 @f00l @unksol I don’t know if it is actually from Fort Worth, but it’s from Texas.
@DennisG2014 I only get Netflix so if it hasn’t maid it there yet. But his documentaries are usually excellent
@DennisG2014 @unksol Just for future reference, PBS documentaries are usually available online via the PBS website.
@DennisG2014 @therealjrn @unksol
On the topic of country blending with R&B, it is worth noting the recent uproar over Billboard refusing to categorize Lil Nas’ Old Town Road as Country and placing it in R&B.
@mike808 Haven’t been following that but, coincidentally, just watched the part of the documentary about Charlie Pride.
Was a bit of an uproar when people realized that smooth, country voice was coming from a black man. He wasn’t magically exempted from racism, but the Country music community embraced him as one of their own.
there is far too much civil discourse in this thread. where’s the rage and the name calling? what the fuck have you people done to my internet!!??
@carl669 It’s the new internet, Carl.
Controversial topics have civil discourse on message boards and people wait in orderly lines to complete objectives in classic World of Warcraft.
@ThomasF
@carl669
Fuck that fucking fucker @carl669!
Did you know that @carl669 is the keeper of the count?
@carl669 You obviously haven’t been reading all the threads. There was one recently where someone got all bent out of shape because people disagreed with that person’s opinion of a situation and that person’s attack of a certain person. Some posts of that person got deleted. Not sure the fuck count was increased in that subthread though.
And this can still be the “good ol’ meh” you remember. And, of course we will try to keep your fuck count increasing. I mean, after all, isn’t that what counts the most - an attempt to achieve the world record fuck count? (snicker)
On a scale of
whattothe fuck- how many email notifications is @carl669 getting for these?@Kidsandliz Not your proudest moment was it, KaL?
@therealjrn Huh? No clue what you are talking about. I don’t troll people.
@Kidsandliz @therealjrn I think he is referring to when I posted T&Cs of being The Goat.
As long as it is not done in an exaggerated, mocking manner, I think it would be fine.
…And that’s flight attendant to YOU.
If the aliens enslave us, commit genocide, wipe away our history, tell us that anything that isn’t alien is “disgusting” “savage” “ignorant” - then they dress up as humans, using the same culture they abused and consider less-than?
Then yeah, that would be appropriation and be offensive.
Cultural appropriation is not about dress-up. It’s about long-reaching societal consequences of racism, colonization, and slavery.
@Thumperchick Maybe we could skip the genocide and enslavement this time and just dress up as each other with only fun and legitimate cultural interests?
@RedHot @Thumperchick I’m down for skipping genocide. Just. Normally.
@Thumperchick Well, we [humans] started doing it first…
@PhysAssist @Thumperchick
well, maybe not
@chienfou @Thumperchick I just meant that we humans [though not anyone I’m descended from XC maybe the earliest Germanic barbarians that eventually started my family] started genocide and enslavement of humans before the Greenies ever arrived here.
But ant enslavement is a specialty of fungi: How a parasitic fungus turns ants into ‘zombies’
https://pmdvod.nationalgeographic.com/NG_Video/111/483/1496911939626_1555533706483_1496978499943_mp4_video_1024x576_1632000_primary_audio_eng_3.mp4
The first 10 amendments to the Constitution really outline our rights as citizens. The others are clarifications.
No founding document provides for a right not to be offended. According to our founding documents, our rights flow from God - not government and not the citizens. I don’t think God gives the right not to be offended.
Whether something offends you (whatever it is and there are many things that REALLY offend me) isn’t really relevant and gets way too much attention.
When we’ve progressed as a society that our biggest concerns are what offends us (instead of basic welfare issues) then we should be thankful.
Go on haters, hate away!
@allergycheryl Oh, Allah, save us. The Constitution was not written by religious men of piety. What a load of revisionist history on top of Christo-fascist, Zionist, and patriarchal bullshit.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident”.
@allergycheryl @mike808 That’s not part of the Constitution, but the Declaration of Independence does reference G_d twice, once in the same sentence you partially quoted…
I don’t believe many of the founding fathers were serious, devoted Christian men either, but I don’t see anything in @allergycheryl’s post that implies that they are, or anything more than Deist beliefs that were apparently common among the founding fathers.
@mike808 Don’t take my word. Read the Declaration of Independence yourself…“that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,” dude that means rights are endowed by the creator and aren’t granted by man. It’s a theory you don’t find in other countries - which makes the US different
@allergycheryl @mike808
Yeah, many other democracies in other countries evolved over time
either from “might makes right” (what not-fun for the non-mighty),
or from “divine right of Kings” (not-wonderful for the non-aristocracy and for those who were not in favor with the king).
I cherish our heritage. But the culture of the 13 colonies that revolted against George III got there the hard way thru thousands of years of hard and brutal history.
And we have improved on what they did, slowly, the hard way.
(Bill of Rights and other amendments;
a Civil War with a death toll astounding to European war historians of the time [new weaponry];
an end to formal slavery;
brutal conditions that slowly yielded to improving laws and customs;
and, I hope, more improvements to come in the future.)
It would be nice if (both institutionalized and casual) racism and other tribal nastinesses could take their final hikes out of culture.
If you wanna know the truest sources of the founders’ thinking, you might start with reading John Locke.
Here we interpret freedom of religion to include freedom from religion.
And we are far far the better for that.
As for the founding document writers’ personal religious beliefs: I’m no historian, but my reading suggests many of them thought of themselves as far more Deist than as traditional Christian.
However that may be; we are under no philosophical or moral necessity to share their religious beliefs.
Freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
They go together well.
@allergycheryl It’s important to differentiate the offended from the oppressed. Actions that offend and actions that oppress or demean are very different. I believe Black face is a tool of oppression and should be of concern.
@allergycheryl @RedHot @f00l
IMO, my “Creator” is my parents, and a result of pure biology. No imaginary sky friend granting wishes necessary.
Funny how people always believe in a god that just happens to always agree with them.
As for referencing historical documents, we must remember that history books are always written by the victors.
I’m already a fan of John Locke, so preaching to the choir.
Ironically, the point that is being missed is that I am tired of hearing about what offends people.
@allergycheryl I don’t think it’s being missed. It’s just that nobody but you cares about how you feel about people being offended.
People are more interested in religion and the Constitution.
Can you people start post posting the smiley faces or the frowney faces? I’m having trouble figuring out who is on my side of the debate here.
@therealjrn
/image giant smiley face
I’m on your side, of course.
This is obvious.
Since, of course, I am completely right about everything.
And, of course, if you don’t agree with me now, I will simply wear you down into a blubbering non-brain over time.
And then I can claim that you agree with me, and since you will be then incapable of speech, no one, including you, can prove that i’m wrong.
So cheer the fuck up.
The Longhorns still want you to be happy. Even if you are N of the Red River. .
Happy Walmarting!
/giphy smiley face
Hey @lichme can you tell caaaaaarrrrllllll @carl669 about this?
@f00l You’re not helping, Texan.
@therealjrn
O, ye of little faith.
/image Bevo
@f00l BEEEEEEEEEVOOOOO
@therealjrn
Calling the cows home?
/image Longhorn cattle
@f00l Actually, I grew up here in Tulsa, not 500 yards away from a few longhorn cattle. Then the city moved out here and the bank took away the Ma-Hu land when the owners died. I’m pretty sure those bankers were from Fort Worth, Texas.
@f00l @therealjrn
Did you really just call him the “N” word?!?!
Have you learned nothing from this thread???
@DennisG2014 Ha ha!
I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed in you @f00l.
@DennisG2014 @therealjrn
Oh gosh did I offend you?
How horrible of me. Please forgive!
Shall I leave a herd of Longhorns at your front door in recompense?
@therealjrn
The bankers were prob from NY and they prob have little appreciation for SW cultural assets.
Sad that your city lost your herd and couldn’t afford another one.
Come see ours!
/image Fort Worth Stockyards cattle drive
@f00l Well, if you’re talking reparations, no need to leave the entire herd, just one nice, juicy prime cut would go a long way towards soothing my outrage.
@DennisG2014 @f00l
Now yer talkin’
@DennisG2014 @f00l @therealjrn ugh that is a lot of bull. What’s people’s beef?
I don’t think it takes being considered less than because of your skin color for most people to be bothered by black face. The way this kind of face painting has been used in the past (to demean) should set the precedent for it never being OK going forward. Once an action is used to purposefully demean or belittle a person or group that action can’t really be redeemed. Even going back to the 40’s people knew the intention behind this behavior and some chose to engage in it anyway. As time progressed those people seem to be young and/or entitled enough to think there will not be consequences. Northam knew it, so did Trudeau. Everyone makes mistakes but some are harder to move past than others, especially today. We all offend someone, eventually. It’s how we choose to handle those situations that will determine whether or not the aliens let us live.
Assuming we haven’t built a wall around earth to keep them all out.
This is a great discussion, and makes me SO uncomfortable, that I’m glad someone brought it up - thanks @baqui63!
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being bothered by anything, and it’s important to talk about why things bother us. That’s actually part of the reason I think it’s SO wrong to make anything a taboo, apart from the surely obvious fact that that’s just asking for some people to yank that chain. I think that young people particularly, and particularly those inclined to react AGAINST oppressive authority structures, are going to be attracted that much more strongly to yanking that chain - which, perhaps ironically, is another one of those fascinating examples of why the rules always trap the wrong people (not that I’m a Trudeau fan AT ALL). But of course my real concern is that anything that obstructs the presentation of ideas - is bad. Of ANY ideas - particularly the ones we disagree with the most - which are the ones we least want to hear - and are probably the ones we most need to be aware of, one way or the other.
The idea of forbidding certain symbols because they’ve been used to represent certain points of view is, of course, very attractive to some folks, and has a long history. Perhaps you are aware that the French king Louis Philippe forbade the use of the pear as a symbol during his reign, because it was used to symbolize himself as a corpulent boob (and it’s said the initials L. P. corresponded to La Poire, meaning “fat head” or “simpleton” in French slang.) The use of the pear as a symbol for Louis, however, started because he forbade the use of his own image in satirical cartoons. The cartoonists then used the pear to represent the idea - and on it went.
God knows how that affected pear advertisers, but my point is that playing whack-a-mole with symbols is the wrong way to go. There are real problems in our society - as in all societies - problems of health and wealth, which I think history has proven can’t be successfully addressed with one-size-fits-all solutions. I think it takes a lot of different viewpoints to see the truth - and trying to shame or punish certain points of view just moves the focus from the real problems to the censorship - making it less likely that we can work together on anything.
@aetris
There is a diff between calling a King a fancy symbolic version of a “fat fathead”,
and calling a grown man of another skin color “boy”,
or in calling members of less powerful groups various forms of insult terms;
racial, gender-driven (usually tho not always directed against females), national origin-driven, sexual- or gender-pref driven, or other tribal insulting slang.
The power/status, and likely long term power/status of the target or if the target group is a huge factor.
And there is a diff between what terminology and expressions we accept in literature, what we accept in civil and or discourse, in formal or legal or academic discourse, etc.
And what terms and exclusions we find unacceptable anywhere.
I have never seen even the beginnings of a reasonable mathematical or theoretical model for all of (academically understood by current standards) human communication even between two people, or even within a small group.
Communication is complex. We won’t have complete final rules for civility that work well without limiting our potential, until we understand all this complexity, and until we stop changing over time.
Personal I would bet against either condition being satisfied within the next millennia.
In the meantime, I hope, we try to be decent and respectful, to have open minds and empathy, and to find our way, in a humane manner, as best we can.
/giphy French pear
@f00l - You’re taking certain things out of context, and as far as I can tell this is common, and seems to me to be done with a certain kind of good intentions perhaps, but with the ultimate goal of demonizing other people, and advancing notions of superior belief systems.
The use of “boy” to address grown men wasn’t limited to people of any one skin color - it was how people in some service roles were addressed. Sure, we don’t call waiters “garcon” anymore, and I’m down with not using phraseology that someone may find offensive. But phoneying it up to say that everyone who used garcon back in the day was some kind of francophobe or something is bullshit.
Back in the day, people liked that minstrel-show music. They weren’t somehow rascists because they liked it. And some of them wanted to perform it - just as we have people today who like hip hop or whatever. And yes, they dress up like the original artists - I don’t think there’s necessarily anything rascist in that. Nowadays we have fashion industries devoted to that look, back in the day they didn’t and did the simplest possible thing. I would bet that the artists who wore blackface back in the day were actually taking a risk, and from exactly these same kind of people, just armed with different justifications for demonizing others.
I’m certainly not suggesting that there ISN’T rascism, because there always seem to be these people categorizing others as inferior by dreaming up rationales to demonize people whose motives they don’t REALLY know. Of course the intentions are always supposed to be good: it’s just a kind of happy accident that it lets them congratulate themselves on their own superiority.
It’s the same-o same-o. It’s just discouraging to see it regurgitating itself in the face of the really serious issues. I thought we’d gotten over this stuff 40 years ago. But it’s stupid for me to get stuck on it - it is what it is, and if it keeps coming around, we just have to work past it somehow. It’s depressing, that’s all, because it makes it harder to get people together on the real stuff. But! Never learn, never mind.
@aetris
I didn’t say that. Or imply that. In any way. At all.
So ?
Whatever
Re: “out of context”
Not really. I discussed the ideas suggested to me by your post that interested me.
Thus my post was not intended as a straight legalistic reply or refutation. Mostly as a more-or-less-on-topic-but-not-exactly-a-reply “related comment”.
Re “boy”, used to address service personnel
Ok, I didn’t mention that usage option. So my “argument”, such as it was, was somewhat incomplete. I didn’t cover every contingency.
Since my comment was intended as informal, that’s fine by me.
The persons I refer to who might have been addressed as “boy” when grown [and some were, in my hearing, addressed so, when I was less than 10 or so years old - my parents were visibly appalled but did not publicly object], didn’t have the option of changing careers in order to avoid that treatment.
So, entirely different situation for them than for waitstaff so-called, but not singled out by skin color.
I believe you think I didn’t understand your comment very well.
I suppose, I also suspect you didn’t, by my standards, understand mine very well.
Perhaps I’m wrong any that. But it matters little.
In any case, I’m not terribly concerned about either possibility. This is a forum. It’s informal, at least for my purposes.
Demonization among my intentions? I don’t think so.
The only persons I would be appalled by are:
those who caused, or are willing to cause, deliberate and intended harm,
or those who strongly suspected/suspect that what they were/are doing is harmful, and then choose to ignore that and continue, or even escalate; instead of reflecting on what is civil and respectful conduct and choosing a respectful or gracious or civility-based conduct path, whatever that may be.
I don’t personally believe that anyone regularly on Meh is one of these who would leave me appalled.
I doubt Trudeau is one of these either. But he prob, given his career and standing, needs to take some actions over a period of time to address this, and to address current issues that have a “similar vibe”.
I suppose, for politicians and other public figures who get “caught out”, some form of public mea culpa or amends will be appropriate for their social and professional circumstances.
I rather expect this to happen. And then I expect much of the “outrage heat” that lurks around these incidents to die off or to subside.
Perhaps a confessional visit to Oprah or some other current/former “talking guru of the airwaves” might be the path to restoring career and public standing for them. I dunno. Something like that might be helpful.
For the rest of us, the non-public persons, who may well have memories of our own conduct that now makes us cringe, what actions, if any, are called for?
Possibly (people will be at variance or disagree):
either, not repeating the conduct;
Or, if some person one knows f2f or similar was offended by the past conduct, and is in one’s current life, one might possibly consider whether to make an apologetic gesture or remark.
If one is willing …
If one thinks the possibly or actually offended person would want the issue re-opened.
(I suspect most persons who might have been offended by past conduct that was not intended as harmful at the time will not want most specific incidents re-opened, unless the incidents were extreme. But that’s just my casual guess, and I have no knowledge.)
Apologies and amends can be wonderful things. They can also be used cynically/manipulatively, or simply overdone.
And I don’t have any final solution to the probs of our species, including this issue.
It has been an interesting topic. (I include your comment in that thought.)
@aetris
Re this in specific
It’s has been too easy for me to be a bit blind to what it’s like for others from diff groups.
I’m white. Was not raised as part of a demonized or marginalized color/race or ethnic group.
I simply don’t know what it’s like day-to-day from that side of things, except by trying to be aware, and by conversation/listening/reading/reflecting.
Within my own daily life, my trying to work hard at listening, and at being aware of subtle cues, such as quickly vanished facial expressions and the like, helps me think things thru from more perspectives.
I have a lot to learn. Perhaps we all do
And manipulators from every possible POV will try to take advantage of the good intentions of most of us.
And some folks of good intentions will likely over-react.
Sometimes an social issue involving changing perceptions and expanding empathies just has to work itself out within the people affected, over time.
@f00l - I’m glad to hear that you don’t have any final solution - I’m just worried that there are people who do - people who think that policing culture and passing judgement on others is an appropriate activity. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with outrage - it’s a perfectly natural response to some things, that differ for all of us - I just get VERY suspicious when it’s used politically. I think history bears me out.
The garcon thing was intended as an example of the boy thing - garçon is the French word for “boy”, and was used to refer to waiters of any age, and any race, for a long time. Now it’s considered bad form to use it.
And just FWIW I’m white too - and have worked in areas where that was an issue for some people - so maybe I’m a little more aware of certain things that other people seem oblivious to - but then again, without knowing what’s actually going on in someone else’s head, I can’t really judge.
@aetris @f00l
The city school system in my home town was forced by court order to integrate almost exactly 40 years ago. Twenty years later the school system virtually re-segregated when the court order was lifted.
@aetris @f00l @Limewater 40 years ago isn’t far enough back that anyone can be excused because they didn’t know racism is harmful. The knew it and did it anyway and society allowed it. Is it fair to bring it back and hold them accountable now? I think so. Whether your mistake was made 5, 10, or 40 years ago doesn’t really matter. We all grow and change at different rates. It helps learn about people and understand what type of person and leader they are. Being forced to face and own our mistakes is a great way to to see someone’s true mettle. Like everything else, this can be taken too far (and often is).
@Limewater @RedHot - It’s always been attractive to think that we know who the bad guys are and can judge them from a position of our own superiority. That was a big thing in the early 20th century and we’ve certainly gone through plenty of spasms of it EVERYwhere ever since. Magic taboo words have been employed to shame people for a long, long time.
I just thought that a while back we’d gotten wise to the fact that it doesn’t work - that the problems are more complicated and rather than categorize people and judge them, we need to look for the areas where we can bring people together. You know, build bridges rather than put people behind walls. But man was I wrong about THAT!
@aetris I love the optimism and I wish it were possible but it feels naive. Unfortunately, it doesn’t reflect the reality we live in now or ever. We all have opinions, we disagree and somehow we have to chose who we want put into political offices. Every human everywhere judges the people around them. Sometimes it’s out of superiority, sometimes it’s necessary for safety, it can also be for love, lust, or hatred. The way we judge and perceive those around us is a huge part of what defines us. Saying that problems are complicated feels like a way to avoid making decisions or dealing with difficult situations. We have to find ways to make decisions and judgments (yes, sometimes about people) that works for each of us as individuals. It’s starts as a child even. Some of us have better methods of decision making and see things a bit clearer than others but there will never be a situation where everyone agrees and we all live happily. No matter how badly some of us want it.
Slight tangent there but the way we judge our politicians is by the means available to us now. It clearly doesn’t work but I haven’t seen another solution that takes into account humanity and all it’s flaws.
@RedHot - I agree! Except with the idea that I’m an optimist, maybe. I do believe that democracy works better than all the alternatives though.
Better. Not perfect.
@aetris Truth. Awesome debate btw, I forgot how great this place can be.
VAN GOGH! MANGO! TANGO! AWESOME!
@aetris @RedHot
Not excusing Churchill’s many faults here, and the the guy had one or two memorable strengths; but note …
he was good with words.
Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
@f00l - I’ve always been partial to: “However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.”
Though not all Churchill quotes originated with Churchill!
@aetris @f00l Or as Dr. Phil puts it “How’s that workin’ for ya?”
Don’t you degenerates know that the whole point of freedom is so everyone can make the same choices I did?
@mike808
Wrong pronoun. Pls fix.
@f00l @mike808 everyone can make the same choices me did
Sheltered small-town Iowa girl here. I never heard of blackface (or to my knowledge saw any examples of it) until about 15-17 years ago. I was graduated from college and in the workforce a couple of years.
It was at that point that I watched the movie Holiday Inn and read on Wikipedia about there being controversy surrounding the use of blackface in it. Even then I didn’t understand very well “why” it was racist. At that time the Wikipedia article for the movie didn’t really explain the “why”. (I haven’t visited the page recently so I don’t know if it now has expounded on the topic.)
In the last year or so I’ve read some more in-depth articles about the history behind blackface and have gotten a better grasp on the “why”.
The reason I’m saying all this is that it is certainly possible for some people to have not realized what they were doing had racist overtones. That doesn’t make it right, but it also doesn’t make them “GUILTY!”. I’m also not saying I’m totally innocent. I recognize I have biases and usually (but not always successfully) try not to let them win.
@msklzannie we all have bias, it is human nature. The goal, however, is to try to overcome them and treat everyone based upon the content of their character (to quote Dr. King).
Sounds like you are doing your part
@tinamarie1974 Thanks. I think the better ideal would be to treat everyone with respect regardless of the content of their character (more proactive than reactive). Though I can’t say I succeed at either ideal.
@msklzannie I am good with that too
@msklzannie @tinamarie1974 Exactly. Some people will feel unease when they see a groups of black kids walking down the sidewalks in front of their houses. They can’t help their gut reactions.
But they can realize that it’s their biases and just go back inside instead of calling 911.
@craigthom @msklzannie @tinamarie1974 It’s not just their biases. It’s the result of a very long history of institutionialized racism. You do understand that modern US municipal police forces are the direct descendants of ad hoc posses becoming permanent services that were hired by plantation/slave owners and sent out to round up any wayward slaves that went AWOL. Callous Christy calling 911 is just an extension if that long ugly history.
Much like the ICE and CPB and regular police force thuggery we see today. It is not a coincidence that POCs and women have near zero representation in those organizations, or that they target them exclusively.
Unfortunately, we as a society have gotten our panties in a wad over a lot of weird BS over the years. Sometimes it requires someone to give us a different take on the subject to get our world shook enough to make the changes we need made. Life is messy.
@chienfou
First read Black Like Me while still a schoolkid.
Astonishing book. Written by John Howard Griffin, a local journalist, after he did his own incredible excursion into the life experience of “others” (daily life for African-Americans in the South, 1960’s), to experience and recount lives most non-blacks could not reach thru imagination.
His journey was financed by Sepia Magazine. He got much support after the book was published.
Of course, he also got death threats and harassment for his efforts, after the book came out. He wound up moving to Mexico in order to get his family away from the “death threat experience”.
(Wikipedia)
http://old.post-gazette.com/sprigle/sprigleintroduction.asp
(An article about the first journey)
/image “in the land of Jim Crow”
I haven’t read this one.
It’s too bad that many of us (still) share so little of the ethnic/racial-experience stories and experiences we live thru daily with persons from different ethnic/racial groups; that we still have to read books and magazine articles.
How many of us who are categorized as white have really truly close friends who are black?
How many of us who are black have really truly close friends who are white?
possibly this is due to subtle cultural discomfort;
In that, who wants to say or do the wrong thing? Or find out that we have misunderstood stuff we feel we ought to understand?
This (even if slight and well-intentioned) anxiety cause a certain slight formality in human relations across the divide.
So the deeper, natural, truly trusting long-term friendships tend to happen less often; there tend to be slight formality and anxiety barriers.
Still. And I find this heartbreaking.
@f00l like you I remember reading BLM as a child. Having come of age in the early 70’s (HS class of 73) I was living in the next city over from Ferguson Mo. and can remember the seeds that would develop into the shit show that became and being most appalled.
Far too many have no point of reference (personal or from reading/researching) for other cultures and the trials and tribulations that they endured, whether it is the black experience in the US, Chinese immigrants and the railroads, the crush of immigrants that came thru Ellis Island, or the Japanese internment during the second world war.
All we can really hope to do is try to improve our little corner of the world, connect with other like-minded individuals and groups and keep slogging toward the finish line.