Has your opinion of Trump changed since he was elected?

@f00l - Well said.
We may never fully recover from the damage he’s done.

@KDemo also agree with you. @f00l always has a way of saying it as it should be. When I saw the topic I came here to see her reply and as usual I’m not disappointed. What was the thing that was said that if China cashed in on our debt we’d be done for? Or am I thinking of the wrong country? I usually try to stay away from politics and the news but unfortunately Trump is all over the place. Is some of it false? Probably. But, I think he brings it on himself and I don’t do social media but anyone who is to represent the Oval Office should not be doing what he apparently does on it. He creates his own bad publicity Also, how can one not believe in climate change? The whole Paris agreement was a nightmare. Holding meetings in his own private businesses, that he refuses to give up or put into a blind trust, instead of in the White House is very unpresidential and unprofessional. As well as claiming half of what he has done is to save America billions- well - that’s just going into what it costs to protect him and get him to his own private businesses. Giving away a presidential paycheck was laughable to say the least. He’s still making a paycheck from his businesses. I usually don’t like to discuss political issues because it can bring out the worst of people- same as religious discussions. Yet, it has been proven that Russia did tamper with the elections. Just how much is yet to be determined. Putting his own family and friends in certain areas, and firing others who don’t “agree” with him, showed again that he has yet to, and may never, learn how and what it takes to be a true leader. I was surprised not to see @OldCatLady on here. To the ones who feel under attack on here - I’m sorry- but I thought this was just a discussion. If I don’t like a topic I usually just move on. But you have a right to your own thoughts/feelings as do the others who have posted but as for the supposedly bad news and campaigns against him - well, from what I can tell, he’s the one creating it and enjoying it when it goes his way and cries wolf when not.

@WTFsunshine what was the evidence that russia tampered with our elections?

@f00l Agreed. He is a classic, certifiable narcissistic Sociopath who has no moral compass or concept of reality. He presents a clear and present danger to the American Democracy and all of its citizens (even those that were stupid enough to vote for him). He is a con artist extraordinaire who cares only for Trump and $$ - not very bright. He should go back to that mindless game show that I never watched (well, actually for 5 minutes before I gave it an “F”) or be exiled to a country with a malevolent dictator and forced to actually do something meaningful - like work. Let him wash dishes, scrub floors and clean toilets like the undocumented slaves that he hires to work in the hotels he has built with Chinese steel and non-union, undocumented labor. Let his financial ties to our enemies be exposed as well as his abysmal academic/behavioral record. Have all of his NDAs publicly released - especially the ones from his NYC subcontractors whom he screwed. This is an a-political statement about Trump, the miserable excuse for a human being. For those who voted for him (or who didn’t vote at all), the is on YOU!

@Babydoc1 “He is a classic, certifiable narcissistic Sociopath who has no moral compass or concept of reality. He presents a clear and present danger to the American Democracy and all of its citizens (even those that were stupid enough to vote for him). He is a con artist extraordinaire”

This is Obama -100% Obama. How you people distort your reality is utterly amazing.

If it somehow makes you feel better, take solace in knowing that, despite the masses of fools who subjected our nation to Obama (twice!!), we survived. I’m not sure Trump will actually make it great again, but at this point, I’m just relieved that Hillary Clinton will NEVER be president of the United States of America.

Amen.

@shahnm I’m going to regret asking this, but what about Obama makes you think of him as a narcissistic sociopath? I understand if you dislike some of his policies, but narcissistic sociopath?

@shahnm Orange is the New Black. There’s not a lick of difference between the two, but I am loving watching all the meltdowns.

@wishlish

With respect like that, who needs disrespect?

Not saying Trump is any better, worse, or otherwise. Just addressing the farce that Obama respected anything but his own ideas.

@jbartus
If you wish to criticise Obama for political or intellectual arrogance, what are your thoughts about the ethics or arrogance of the other party, whose caucuses decided to en masse oppose anything he or the Democrats attempted?

You cannot find a President anywhere in our history who did not have significant personal flaws. Greatness or competence in a President comes from taking actions to leave the country in somewhat better shape than they found it, despite whatever happens that is beyond their control, and despite their own demons and attitutudes.

Most of them have records that are very mixed, including the most competent of them.

If you want to pull the bad or reprehensible moments from any Presidency, you will have a very thick dossier for all of them.

Obama has his flaws, they are well-understood. Reputation finally rests on historical judgments examining many factors “on balance”.

If a President spins obvious and provable falsehoods (including petty and stupid falsehoods) far more frequently than our previous Presidential norms; appears easily manipulable; appears to have near-zero understanding of fact and policy; appears to go the way of the argument of “the last person in the room with him”; appears to act or speak (or post to Twitter) without thinking; and directly undermines public civility; people are entitled to notice and draw their conclusions.

Can you name a President, starting from, say, 1900 onwards, who did not way way way over-promise on policy? I can’t.

@f00l I’m sorry, what part about my calling out one individual on his shit constituted saying that nobody else’s shit stinks? I specifically stated that my post was not in any way a commentary on Trump or, for that matter, any other president.

Every political candidate on every level over promises, that’s not news, but the fact of the matter is that Obama wanted a healthcare act put into place to be his legacy more than he wanted to ensure that it was worth the paper it was printed on. I don’t personally know a single person who is still on their pre-ACA plan. Whether it’s because their plan ceased to exist, got price-hiked through the roof to subsidize the cost of caring for the previously uninsurable, or their doctors were forced to change networks the fact stands that he cared so little about that promise that he signed his name to a piece of legislation that was painfully obviously broken before the ink was even dry knowing that the biggest promise he’d made regarding that legislation was not covered.

@jbartus

… the fact stands that he cared so little about that promise that he signed his name to a piece of legislation that was painfully obviously broken …

To me, the thing you state, as you phrased it, does not stand. At all.

The ACA was a typical piece if sausage created by the political process. By the time it was done, compromises and tradeoffs had gone all down the line. This is the way of politics: all politics; or all politics I have ever experienced or read about.

What Obama proposed and what Congressional idealists who have some familiarity with healthcare and the insurance industry wanted was one thing. What they got was what was politically feasible during that particular Congress.

Perhaps if Obama had been a better political leader or political operator, or better at face to face negotiations, a stronger, or cleaner, or better designed bill might have emerged and gone into law.

But it came down to the bill we got vs no bill at all, and then having to continue the existing status quo of the time.

Residents of Massachusetts may have gotten a worse outcome than many residents elsewhere, due to their previously having had better options than the rest of us.

I know people who did not have health insurance then, and have it now. None of them receive anything from the Medicaid expansion. I don’t know w what percentage receives other subsidies. I know that singer of them receive no subsidies at all.

I know others whose health insurance coverage is either not as good, or is more expensive, or both. In some cases, the tradeoffs were severe.

I know others whose health insurance is approximately as it was, if you allow for normal medical cost inflation and the fact that in-network provider lists change every year.

None of this has anything to do with how much Obama did or did not “care”. He got all he could have gotten. The political process is an ugly thing.

Each of us is free to evaluate whether the ACA is good or garbage, but that has nothing to do with Obama’s “caring”, or his “political integrity”, as that term is commonly understood. Every President since 1933 certainly makes a total FAIL by that scale, if you compare important promises to how things worked out. I can’t comment on Presidents previous to that without hitting up on some history.

If that’s how you evaluate Obama’s achievements vs promises, and you look at other politicians thru similar eyes, you are going to look long and hard to find an effective politician who you can come to respect. I don’t know if you will ever locate one, if you study the gritty details of what that person did, or what was done on his behalf that he knew about or should have known about.

I am reminded a bit of Diogenes seeking an honest man.

In a typical political discussion, we tend to focus on the virtues and faults of a given set of ideas or those of a given political agenda or group.

My biggest worries regarding our current president have little to do with normal standards such as whether he has overpromised on policy and what can be achieved, or whether I believe his ideas and philosophies are any good; or even whether he and his family are ethical, or whether they are blind to serious conflicts of interest, or even whether he or someone close to him has acted as a witting or unwitting agent for pro Russian interests.

My largest concerns are as to whether he has sufficient mental and emotional balance so that he does not destroy much of our national potential along the way, or get us into a truly stupid trade or economic situation, or a war even more stupid, pointless, and destructive than the worst of those we’ve already endured in the last 60 years.

This is a worry about Trump In a manner and to a degree that I have felt about no other President during my lifetime (I was born during the 1950’s).

Trump as President is, for better or for worse, a marker and agent of something that will mean notable and unpredictable change in what the US is, in our lifetimes.

To me, we are in very dangerous times.

The US and the best portions of the “shining city on a hill” have, so far, been remarkably resilient, and have grown rather than shrunk, if you take the long view. I deeply hope that our national fabric and national character still possess that quality and strength in deep measure. We’ll need it.

@f00l sorry but implementing bad policy for the sake of political expediency isn’t something I’m prepared to sit by and accept. You’re exactly right, he was more interested in some bill rather than no bill at all which is why it was rammed through congress in his second year in office instead of giving it more time to percolate and get refined into something that may have been workable. He and the rest of the Democratic leadership didn’t dare risk the possibility that congressional elections would upset the majority (rightly so as it turned out) they needed to ram it through without proper bipartisan support. I won’t pretend that it hasn’t helped some, but I know people that it has hurt including at least one individual who it was meant to benefit (those pesky pre-existing conditions…).

You’re probably right that it’s hit worse in my state than others since it was basically a bastardized version of Romneycare, but to me that’s one of the fundamental flaws of the ACA, it tried to be a one-size-fits-all solution. Whatever the case, I don’t really see where you presume to dictate what standard I use to judge Obama’s respect for the citizens he was meant to lead. You’re willing to forgive the transgression, and that’s fine you’re entitled to your opinion. As I believe you posted in another thread in image form, I would defend to the death your right to have that opinion, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it, and in my opinion Obama was more worried about legacy building than doing the right thing.

I really don’t see why you keep trying to drag Trump into this, I’m not biting.

@jbartus But now isn’t the other side trying to do? To “ram” things through? What we need is a thoughtful discussion on both sides. Even when social security was passed way back when, they still needed to tweak it after it was passed and implemented so that it became a better bill. Instead the republicans did not allowed to happen with the health care bill. Considering a good chunk of that bill was something the republicans had proposed years ago, seems to me this is not about health care…this is about something else… that “something else” is an inappropriate way, for people elected to run our country, to behave. I think a lot of those in DC have forgotten that nobody died and made them king Instead they need to put their own desires aside and represent ALL the people who live in their district not just the ones who agree with them.

Too late to edit. First sentence had some words left out (still tired, got home late last night). Meant to say: But now isn’t that what the other side is trying to do?

@jbartus

I don’t really see where you presume to dictate what standard I use to judge Obama’s respect for the citizens he was meant to lead.

Not trying to dictate anything, and don’t believe that’s what I said or implied.

(The word dictate came out at first as “ductape”. I am using a swipe keyboard.).
; )

You’re willing to forgive the transgression, and that’s fine you’re entitled to your opinion. As I believe you posted in another thread in image form,

I am willing, I think, to understand the “transgression” (using your term, with which I disagree), and to try to measure it ultimately by the breadth of harm it caused and also by degree of harm it caused in some severe instances vs how much good it brought and how widely that good was experienced.

Yes there are some political moves that cause such terrible harm that they should never be enacted. Even if they also do good. There are other political acts that cause some or a lot of difficulty and dislocation on the short run, but years later were clearly justifiable.

These are judgment and wisdom calls. neither we or our political leadership always hey them right in the short run. And I certainly don’t expect other thoughtful people to necessarily come out where I do on them.

As I believe you posted in another thread in image form,

I make different sorts of comments and arguments at different times, depending on weight, atmosphere, and seriousness. Some remarks (esp in image form) are intended r comments or jokes or tweaks, not full blown statements of position or thought. Sometimes I am just expressing a feeling, making a joke, or feeling snarky. I hope our is clear by context which is which. I do notintend “light” comments to be taken as carefully reasoned. We are all entitled to be casual, I am guessing your agree on that.

I would defend to the death your right to have that opinion,

cf. thoughts of Voltaire, and remarks commonly attributed to Edmund Burke (but were actually a comment about him made by a biographer.)
One of my Political Grandmother’s favorite sayings. She’s meant it. : )

doesn’t mean I have to agree with it,

Fully agree. It does not. Nor do I wish or expect you to.

and in my opinion Obama was more worried about legacy building than doing the right thing.

I would disagree here. (I do not expect to persuade you.)

Yes I believe he made political calculations. I also believe he feared the results of the next election and acted according to political expediency in not waiting.

I also believe that he thought the bill was far better than having no bill at all, in and of itself. For most people. And esp for the desperate who had no insured access to healthcare at all. In that regard, I believe that Obama was perhaps somewhat rueful about the quality of what he got vs what he wanted, but not cynical. He thought he was doing good overall, in my judgment.

If you think he is as cynical a national politician as we have seen recently, then we disagree.

I am aware some people have worse and more expensive policies and care than they once did.

What I was commenting on was your remark about his “caring”. You seem to believe his support of the final bill that passed was an act of monumental political cynicism.

I disagree with you there, and think most sober historians a century from now, when political passions focus on different topics, will feel as I do here. And that most of the better political historians (and most Americans then) then will likely think the ACA was a huge step forward for our country as a whole, even if not for every citizen of MA and elsewhere at that time, judged by the long view of history; and even if what passed Congress was a deeply flawed bill at that that moment.

My specific comment on your comment focused on your phrase “cared so little”. It sounded like an emotional remark about a personal sense of betrayal, not a measured remark about your perception of the degree of political calculation and cynicism
(that’s why I included my caveat “as phrased”.)

If I misinterpreted what you intended there, my apologies, tho in that case I think you could have phrased your thoughts somewhat better.

Had your remarks not be phrased so as to possibly sound to me like strong and emotional bitterness (to me), and possibly of judging Obama by harsher standards than you might apply to another politician (to me), then I would not have commented that I disagreed.

I am certainly not trying to persuade you that the ACA is better or worse than no ACA; you will make your own judgments there.

Incidentally, @kidsandliz is correct about the political history of Social Security and Medicare. They got passed. Then they had to be improved upon because of flaws. Not perfect today. I believe both are far better than they were, and far better than nothing.

@f00l

(The word dictate came out at first as “ductape”. I am using a swipe keyboard.).

Ducttape - def: that which needs to be used on people who are spewing hate, stupidity…? That kind of ducttape?

@jbartus

I really don’t see why you keep trying to drag Trump into this, I’m not biting.

As you wish. The topoc is about Trump. Your original remark was a response to a comment contrasting Trump and Obama.

I brought up Trump in order TOI explain my worries about Trump add President differ from my worries about any other President sorting my lifetime, excepting my worries about Nixon during 1973-1964.

I think that’s fair in the context of this part of this topic, but suit yourself.

If you wish to think me as being intellectually sloppy or cheap or perfidious, think as you wish. I’m not intending to argue those, if they are your conclusions.

Incidentally, I do not think of you as coming off in any of those ways.

Sometimes I think your remarks, as expressed on the page, read as more “emotional and harshly reactive, needing more careful thought about how to put things” and reading as less “reasoned” than I think you intend to imply.

My arguments with you in this case may as much over your writing style as over your thinking. Or perhaps more over your writing style than your thinking.

@Kidsandliz

@jbartus is not spewing. I presume you weren’t referring to him.

But yeah, there is some spewing going on.

I’m going to try to avoid the “hate” scene.

Not that I don’t adore duct tape. For reasonable uses.

duct tape duck

@f00l I was only picking up on your mistyping ducktape and making a comment on the potential use of that given the context of some behavior in this thread. Not directed at any specific individual…

@Kidsandliz

ducktape

My spelling as shown above came from the Gboard keyboard autocorrect guess. I loved it.

@f00l @Kidsandliz

@f00l I just copied what you had LOL

@f00l
/image odd toe co wreck

@f00l I would feel very differently if he had spent the next six years of his presidency working to improve that which he forced through rather than trying to convince people how great it was as their money and choices were taken away from them. From where I sit he got his legacy-defining legislation through and then sat pat happy to let it sit as it was. We can agree to disagree though.

Re: Trump, you’re right that it’s the main focus of this thread I was just frustrated because I actively avoided discussing Trump and was solely addressing the presentation of Obama as some kind of golden standard. Truth be told the last thing in the world I want to think about right now much less discuss at length is Trump.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On the topic of how composed my posts may or may not be, context of the situation in which I post probably dictates here. These days I’m usually popping onto the boards here during short breaks in working when I need to disconnect somewhat from work for sanity’s sake. I think you’ve seen in the past that I am capable of writing treatises like the ones you post (word treatise not used flippantly, very sincere), I’m just so beside myself with the amount of work I’ve got going on that I can’t dedicate the time to it. Running on hours of sleep in the past 48 right now, in fact it probably played a contributing factor to the state of my car this evening though I’m not sure I’d have avoided the situation in question if well rested, que sera sera.

@Kidsandliz technically either spelling would be accurate: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006HX2MK/

@f00l @jbartus @Kidsandliz Nice tape duck!

@JT954 SPOILED child with an attitude problem.

@awk A lot of people are going to get hurt. His attack on the ACA alone…

@Jasonf1984 This times 100. Hopefully we get Rand next go around

@totino87 I was hoping for Austin Petersen, but the LP decided they wanted to run an even bigger joke than the major parties this time

@Dweezle He’s having a run at a senate spot as a Republican in Missouri. So we’ll see what happens. Unfortunately Gary blew a big opportunity for us.

@KDemo I would definitely buy that!

@KDemo WONDERFUL! Thanks.

@KDemo You know… Except for the fact that he’s the only person to come into office in favor of gay marriage. But whatever suits your narrative I suppose!

@KDemo I think it’s not so much hatred, it’s more towering ignorance combined with an ego that is well… it’s really bigly. He’s like a giant man-baby who thinks that because he says something, it becomes true, and if he wants something, he must have it, regardless of cost.

@Mominator That’s true too, but the vitriol toward Obama, media, and really anyone who doesn’t blindly agree with him is epic. He’s essentially no better than Kim Jong-un.

@guyfromhawthorn who specifically on his staff is downright evil? I must be behind on my news.

@gilar1ja Specifically the people on his staff who open their mouths!

@gilar1ja How about Steve Bannon? And one cannot look at Steven Miller’s dead eyes and not see a glint of evil. Most of them are just clueless sycophants.

@gilar1ja White supremacist Bannon is the first one that comes to mind. “Liberals are not people” Kushner is a close second. Blatant unashamed liar Kellyanne Conway is another. Just count them.

@Steve7654

“Liberals are not people” Kushner is a close second.

I think that remark was from Eric Trump.

Made during an interview re Eric Trump’s discussion about the “unfairness” of sharp political criticism (he seemed to include well-reasoned criticism) directed at the President, apparently without measuring the sharp, nasty, vituperative, often off-topic, and frequently flat-out false political comments the President has directed against others.

Kushner has his issues, but he wasn’t the one who said that.

@daveinwarsh He is, as he has always been, TRUMP. By his own words, THAT will never change. He is a disgrace that has befallen all of us. It’s not a matter of “filtering”, it is a matter of sociopathy, inability and total lack of ethics or morality. Don’t hold your breath, although your wishes for an acceptable outcome are praiseworthy. Concentrate your efforts on the Legislative Branch of government - they are the only ones that can marginalize him until we have another election. The SC will do what they do, hopefully apolitically.

@oholiday I live in a city that is predominantly Hispanic, even though I’m not. I don’t feel threatened whatsoever – so referring to my hard working American-dream-seeking neighbors as “drug dealers, criminals, rapists … bad hombres” is not caring. It’s labeling. It’s racism.

There’s no “he cares more about our us, we, you the people then anyone in a long time” that I could see from what’s been said in the past two years.

@narfcake They have to create an us against them to rouse the rabble. Then once they commit to shooting themselves in the foot, it has to be right for the rest of their existence. Caldini and Caldini straight from persuasion 3010.

@oholiday I would respectfully suggest that you learn more about history and look up the definitions of Sociopath, con artist and fascist. Read some REAL news and follow REAL issues - not on FaceBook or Twitter, and not from extreme right-wing anarchists. Trump really is a disgrace, from any rational, educated perspective. He has done more to destroy this Democracy than anyone other than Joe McCarthy (and, in fact, uses his lawyer). Res Ipsa Loquitur.

@oholiday Cares more about the people? Seriously? Lets start with health insurance. Or more accurately, that which many of us will no longer have (never mind that either bill is a tax on the poor and middle class for a tax break for the rich, it is not a health plan it is a tax plan).

I am on my 3rd cancer (got 3 in 7 years). The third one has no cure. Worked hard my entire life. Paid into the system my entire life. Barely even used the health insurance I paid for and had for my entire life until these surprise cancers (cancer does not run in the family). Health insurance companies were close to 100% profit levels on the premiums I paid until cancer. Even then they only lost money on me for 2, maybe 3 of those years. But isn’t that what insurance is for? In case you need it?

Under either of the new government plans I’d either have no insurance (because of proposed permitted state discretion over opt outs of conditions it would cover) or it would cost, at a minimum in the “better” of the two versions (eg the 5x the young person’s rate - I am currently paying 3x that rate under the current plan), $1865/mo (using this year’s rates - my state did not expand medicaid and opted out of everything they could besides, I would imagine under either of the “new” plans that “opting out” would continue to the max; also my rates went up around $260? $280, can’t remember, a month between last year and this year so I am sure it will go up again) just for me (and that is not counting the deductible/out of pocket). I do not make that a month as I am “over educated” for the junk jobs and the gap in my resume/vitae due to this mess, is being used against me for the professional jobs that use my education (and yet tell them you had 2 cancers in one year and that goes over really well too. Not.).

My story is repeated millions and millions and millions of times over… And they said no death panels. Pfffff. So just how, exactly, do they plan for people like me, and millions just like me, to be able to get and afford coverage? I guess it is “kinder” to just let us die of lack of access to health care (no ER’s do not give chemo, follow you for other chronic issues, etc.). Preferably sooner rather than later. Yup that can go a long way to curing our “poverty program”, the projected financial issues with medicare and social security. Kill us before we are even old enough to use it.

Cares about “his” people perhaps - his family, friends, the wealthy… Cares about the rest of us? Not that I can see.

@Babydoc1 (to add to what @narfcake said) and also look up borderline personality disorder. That also fits in multiple ways.

I meant “poverty problem” not “poverty program”… too tired today.

@oholiday What would YOU consider a “reliable source” of information?

@oholiday
/giphy Hey Kool Aid

@oholiday I remember the Republicans deciding to destroy Obama on day one, attacking him before he did anything…everything they did was meant to limit not only his effect on our government but his place in history. They NEVER worked with him, did everything they could to damage him, and even stole his Supreme Court appointment.

Trump started out on day 1 by doing everything he could to undo Obama’s policies and only keeping the horrible ones like drone strikes and reduction of civil liberties.

To read Trump’s tweets, and use that as any measure of his effectiveness is clearly ridiculous. As one example, he said that he had “the most attended inauguration in history” when the photos clearly showed very small crowds. Trump often tweets things, then corrects them, then corrects them again.

Everyone credits this guy with his Supreme Court appointment as if it was some great triumph. The Republicans gave him a list of who they would find acceptable, he picked one, and they appointed him. If he had picked a duck, they would have approved the duck.

He knows nothing about politics, the US Constitution, or International Law, but then again, neither do his followers.

There are only two reasons why anyone would have voted for Trump: (1) hatred for Hillary (I can understand that, as I didn’t like her either, but it’s really not an excuse for electing Trump), and (2) hatred for the “Black guy” who held the office before him.

How else can you explain replacing a highly educated Constitutional Law Professor with a stable family who brought us a semblance of universal Health care and saved homeowners, GM and the banks in his first six months, with a guy who is an ignorant con-man, who wanted Black youths locked up for a crime they were found not to have committed (after the evidence acquitting them was already discovered - the “Central Park Five”), twice-divorced-thrice married with a child out of wedlock, wrestled on WWE, who wants to sign a health care bill that is really a tax break for millionaires, hasn’t created a single job (all of those were negotiated by the Obama administration, except for the coal jobs, which haven’t materialized yet), whose ignorance is an international embarrassment, and who only picks sycophants to work for him?

I hear people saying they’re proud of him - Proud of what? To have a President as ignorant, greedy and bigoted as they are? I figure what they really mean is, they’re proud to have a racist white guy again.

@comics360 -

@oholiday I am pretty sure your meds have stopped working. Hope you have health insurance under his new plan to get your mind back. You obviously have misplaced it.

@gilar1ja
I dunno the repugnacant hate jerk circle seems to have galvanized the party in 2016 maybe it’s something the democrats need come together in 2020.

@gilar1ja you personally catch “a lot” of Democrats celebrating shootings?

@gilar1ja The hate circle jerk was created by your fuhrer,Trump.

@gilar1ja Every single Democrat I know was completely against what that shooter did at that baseball practice. You will find assholes in every single group out there on the planet, but please do not think anyone who could celebrate someone shooting someone else is representative of Democrats as a whole. Especially if you want others to paint everyone in your own party based on the actions of some of its more extreme members.

@gilar1ja Beware of what you read. Trump said that he saw thousands of Muslims cheering 911 in NJ. We all know that that was a blatant lie (just as was his claim that Obama was not born in the United States and that HIS crowd was “bigger”), as is most of what he says. Those who despise Trump do so because of who he is, not because they think they “lost” the election. [In reality, outside of Trumpworld, Trump lost the election significantly by popular vote - his acquisition of the WH was a political aberration of the Electoral College. In the future, I hope, 1 person = 1 vote. That should dismiss this inequity.] Until the idiots in BOTH parties start using the brains that God gave them (assuming they actually were given them), this country is headed toward a civil war of ignorant hatred; a war in which no one wins. Dialogue is being driven by insane partisan billionaires who own media networks and pay for false, denigrating advertising on both sides of the aisle. USE YOUR BRAIN, OPEN YOUR EYES, come to conclusion based upon verifiable FACT, not Trump’s delusions or Tweets. A FACT is indisputable; opinion is irrelevant.

@Babydoc1 so just to be clear you want California to pick our presidents from now on, right? The other 49 states don’t matter? That’s pretty much what you’re saying. You are aware that if you removed California’s contributions Trump would have won the popular vote, right? That is a fact.

@Babydoc1 One person one vote would fracture our government. The electoral college guarantees a two party system and a majority–or near majority vote. One party one vote eliminates the two party system and Then you could have five parties and the elected president only getting 21% of the vote. This is how guys like Hitler can get elected.

@gilar1ja um…

Mark Potok, senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center civil rights group, said he had not seen such a rash of hate crimes in the United States since Barack Obama was elected America’s first black president in 2008.

Article is about violence towards minorities since Trump won. Notice what the previous peak was? Should I lump you in with those conservatives?

source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-attacks-idUSKBN1352NO

@Pantheist And how many of those were followed up with and discovered to be hoaxes? Because there’s been an awful lot of those, too.

@jbartus

so just to be clear you want California to pick our presidents from now on, right? The other 49 states don’t matter?

Since when?

I am not currently in favor of a change to straight popular vote Presidential elections. If we did that, "California would not “pick our Presidents from now on”. The urban areas of California plus Texas plus New York plus the urban areas of number of large cities would pick our Presidents.

It is the disenfranchisement of rural areas that gives me pause. (Plus that changes to the Constitution should not be done lightly.)

Wyoming, Montana, and Alaska could simply not bother, unless they were more or less voting in the same direction as urban LA, NYC, Boston Houston, Chicago, Atlanta, etc, or unless as a pyrrhic gesture.

I’m no historian, but I kinda think that the electoral college system was put into place, partly out of political compromise, and partly as a deliberate attempt to prevent large cities and heavily populated regions from having a lock on controlling national politics. I can see the point of that.

The shift to a popular vote method would only mean California picked the Presidents if CA gained significantly in population, or if the other large urban areas more or less agreed with the big majority opinions popular in CA.

@luvche21

@shahnm Anyone who knows anything about the history of the political parties knows that there was big a political shift many years ago and the KKK has absolutely nothing to do with the current Democratic party. That graphic is completely misleading. And those idiots on the bottom are likely anarchists who, again, have nothing do with Democrats or really any political party. That’s the point of anarchy, after all.

@shahnm If you believe this, you are an idiot. You are contributing to the destruction of the very freedom that lets you publish this garbage. Try this in N Korea and see what happens.

@shahnm I bet you share a lot of fake news on facebook too.

@peaceetc @Babydoc1 @medz Wait, do people actually believe that stuff?

It wasn’t until recently that I realized that there are actual racist people that live in my area. I didn’t want to believe it was true.

There was a recent school stabbing locally here, and the very first comment on the article was someone blaming the attack on illegal immigrants before any news broke on who did the attack. I was truly sickened that that was someone’s first instinct (and that they felt the need to spread it online) that our problems come from other races. It turned out to be just some white kid that attacked other students.

@luvche21 It is not an uncommon gut reaction.

In my town is a large building that used to house a thriving restaurant equipment business. Back during the election the owner placed huge trump banners across the front of the building, apparently forgetting that the food service industry is largely run and staffed by minorities and immigrants. They went out of business shortly after the election, but those banners are still hanging there. Every time I drive past those Trump/ Pence signs the involuntary thought that if that building burned down it would not make me sad passes through my mind.

@shahnm Stupid- adjective - middle class republican.

@cranky1950 Such hate. And classism! Tsk tsk tsk. You libbies…

@shahnm Yeah, really you ought to curb your hate.

@shahnm

@KDemo I don’t think some people know what hate is. Posting inane memes to make their points.

Why do you think that is?

@shahnm

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rac·ist
ˈrāsəst/
noun
noun: racist; plural noun: racists

1.
a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
"the comments have led to her being called a racist"
synonyms:	racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More
"he was exposed as a racist"
(racially) discriminatory, racialist, prejudiced, bigoted
"a racist society"

adjective
noun: racist; plural noun: racists; adjective: racist

1.
showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another.
"we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"

---

big·ot
ˈbiɡət/
noun
noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
"don't let a few small-minded bigots destroy the good image of the city"
synonyms:	chauvinist, partisan, sectarian; racist, sexist, homophobe, dogmatist, jingoist
"he comes off as a naïve, close-minded bigot"

---

Islamophobia (ˌɪzlɑːməˈfəʊbɪə)
n

1. (Psychology) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture
   ˌIslamoˈphobic adj

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Search Results
mi·sog·y·nist
məˈsäjənəst/
noun
noun: misogynist; plural noun: misogynists

1.
a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.
synonyms:	woman-hater; More
antifeminist, (male) chauvinist, sexist, hater;
informalmale chauvinist pig
"he apparently deserved his reputation as a misogynist"

adjective
adjective: misogynist

1.
relating to or characteristic of a misogynist.
"a misogynist attitude"

---

ho·mo·phobe
ˈhōməˌfōb/
noun
noun: homophobe; plural noun: homophobes

a person with an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.
"we never allowed the homophobes we met to get the last word"

---

Search Results
fas·cist
ˈfaSHəst/
noun
noun: fascist; plural noun: fascists

1.
an advocate or follower of the political philosophy or system of fascism.
"he went to Spain to fight against the fascists"
synonyms:	authoritarian, totalitarian, autocrat, extreme right-winger, rightist; More
Nazi, blackshirt;
nationalist, xenophobe, racist, anti-Semite, jingoist;
neofascist, neo-Nazi
"he was branded a fascist"
antonyms:	liberal
    a person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
    "fascists made death threats against immigrants and asylum seekers"
    a person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area.
    "I'm a bit of a spelling fascist, but still have blind spots over words like “privilege” or “separate”"

adjective
adjective: fascist

1.
relating to fascism.
"a military coup threw out the old fascist regime"
synonyms:	authoritarian, totalitarian, dictatorial, despotic, autocratic, undemocratic, illiberal;

---

naht-see, nat-

Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun, plural Nazis.
1.
a member of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion, anti-Semitism, and Aryan supremacy, all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.
2.
(often lowercase) a person elsewhere who holds similar views.
3.
(often lowercase) Sometimes Offensive. a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to regulate a specified activity, practice, etc.:
a jazz nazi who disdains other forms of music; health nazis trying to ban junk food.
adjective
4.
of or relating to the Nazis.

Adolf Hitler - Mini Biography

Adolf Hitler was leader of the Nazi Party and became Chancellor of Germany in 1933. As leader of the Third Reich, he invaded Poland, marking the beginning of World War II. He orchestrated the Holocaust, which resulted in the death of 6 million Jews.

Yeah, your silly little meme nails it.

@shahnm All you do here is show your ignorance.

@lisaviolet “Yeah, your silly little meme nails it.”

You libs have redefined all of these terms. Look in the mirror. Look in your heart.

Never mind. You can’t see it. Just keep patting yourself on your back for being so very wonderful, while you and your ilk spew hate, break and burn things (materially and metaphorically), and generally rip apart the fabric of this once great nation.

@Babydoc1 “All you do here is show your ignorance.”

I show YOU your ignorance. FIFY.

@shahnm WTF? You have no clue what I’m about.

Don’t assume.

Did you learn anything or are you still stuck in that meme rut?

I had a con one time post on my wall that “you just can’t argue with a lib”. Then why the hell are you even trying? She wasn’t even arguing, she was just being nasty and name calling. Trying to start a fight. Like I see so many on the right do.

Life’s too short to put up with that shit from people I don’t know and will most likely never meet. Just sayin’.

@lisaviolet “Posting inane memes to make their points.
Why do you think that is?”

Because libs don’t really have the attention span to enter into a rational discussion without promptly breaking into ad hominem attacks, screaming, hissy fits in general, and proclamations that everyone who disagrees with them is “literally Hitler” (as you kind and loving folk like to put it).

@lisaviolet “You have no clue what I’m about.”

I’ve learned enough to know that I’m pretty sure I know what you’re about.

@shahnm Oh, yes, that’s why I went and found every definition for your meme. Because I have a short attention span. Uh huh. Right.

Okay, you win. You’re right. Feel better now?

@shahnm Yep, you’ve showed that you’re pretty ignorant.

@cranky1950 Do you have nothing at all interesting or meaningful to say?

@shahnm Grow up. Find your moral compass if you can.

@shahnm Gosh this guy can’t figure to just direct link to stormfront.

@narfcake Perhaps they haven’t made the sweep through but there are some I’d like to see deleted because they do nothing but reflect ignorance and hate. I would like to see a ‘report’ feature on comments.

@Pavlov Ahhh, thank you for “douche-nozzle”! My wife and I used to prefer douchetard, but that’s apparently 50% socially insensitive, so we don’t use it.

As for our current state of affairs, people are scared, the world is cautious, Wall St. is more nervous than I’ve seen it in 25 years, entrepreneurs are shutting down at an increasingly rapid pace, and venture capital money is drying up. We are due for a huge uptick in volatility. So, before Trump, I was buying puts, but now, I will be adding to that position.

@AccusingEwe I edited the post as I felt as though I was unfairly disparaging douche-nozzles.

@Pavlov Thanks. I thought it was my Ambien.

@Pavlov As I was reading through the thread my first thought was, “Hope Pavlov shows up for this one.” And there we are… Yay!

@serpent I can’t agree with you about Hillary, but I also wish the blue side remembered that the high road is an actual thing, not just a rhetorical device you can brush the cobwebs off when it’s convenient.

I imagine a metaphorical exchange:

“The balloon is sinking! We need more altitude!”
“It’s already full of hot air! We have to lighten the load!”
“Start throwing things overboard, then! We can start with the ideals! Those are heavy and useless.”

Maybe we should all take some time to watch old Star Trek and King Fu reruns.

@serpent Can’t agree, Trump makes Hill seem like Churchill, and that’s pretty scary. I really despise Bill and Hill.

@cranky1950 See, this is one thing that’s driving me nuts about Trump and his followers - Trump uses the phrase “I won” over and over and over again about the election, even today. The election is done. Trump (sadly) won. It’s no longer Trump vs. Hillary. He’s president now, and is still acting like it is all about the victory for the presidency.

Dear Trump: you won 8 months ago. OK, we get it. Now go to work. As much as I cast my vote to vote against you rather than vote for another candidate, the world really needs you to do a good job. I don’t want you to fail because then the country fails.

@luvche21 He’s waiting for the democrats to rollover and play dead because he won, which is something the republicans never did during the Clinton or Obama administrations but because he’s the Donald everyone is supposed to bow down to him. Meh As the sage Doris sang Que sera sera.

@InnocuousFarmer

I’ve been paying him less attention lately

I am certain he is expecting exactly this from us all.

@Pavlov that would be an Onion article worth reading: “America Turns Off Its Television,” or so.

I don’t see the advantage to keeping up on the stream of childish misbehavior, TBH, and the media does like to spend a lot of time reporting trivial news that doesn’t matter, once you’ve already established the premise that Trump is unfit for his office, etc. I don’t think that consuming the news one minute at a time is an effective means of counteracting him.

Meanwhile, ideally anyways, I’ve got a life I should be leading. My available attention and effort is almost entirely spoken for. It’s a lot of work to drink from the media firehose while trying to parse what is substantive, and what is some bias in missing context.

It seems to me that the solution to what you’re referring to is for the media to stop reporting Twitter.

¯\(ツ)/¯

@InnocuousFarmer I agree, it’s crazy making, but it’s so important NOT to forget what is going on. We cannot support this idiot by ignoring him. Political action is necessary to curb/prevent this in the future - for you AND your children. “ALL THAT IS NECESSARY FOR EVIL TO SUCCEED IS FOR GOOD PEOPLE TO DO NOTHING”.

@Babydoc1 I agree in principle, but I’m not sure how I can contribute to “the cause”, so to speak, beyond what I’m doing now. I donate some money to some political organizations, and I try not to seem too much like an angry, raving loon when talking to Republican-oriented friends and family, who are generally inattentive and modestly in favor of Trump, such is the cultural divide. (I plan on badgering them incessantly to vote in the next Republican primary–I’m sure they’d like to have a candidate who is not an embarrassment.)

Not being crazy-made does make that latter part easier. It also makes it easier to parse the news that I do read in a level-headed way.

A lot of the criticism of the left being “haters” has some merit. We can have found a witch and still be on a witch hunt. Even, or, especially when you’re in the right, exercising care in your approach matters a lot.

@InnocuousFarmer @InnocuousFarmer I have a number of Republican friends, whose belief in Trump is genuinely incomprehensible to me. I spent the weekend vacationing with one and we generally avoided areas of conflict but hit two. One was minor, having to do with conservation, oddly antithetical to conservatives. The other was when Fox news, which he watched every morning, was growling about Planned Parenthood and he made some comment about how people shouldn’t complain about them being defunded, but instead should just open clinics that don’t conflict with American Values. I confronted him on the ridiculousness of this statement. Not only is the cost of opening health clinics prohibitive, not only is there a huge gap between the number of poor people needing help and the charitable medical industry, but anyone trying to stay on the right side of “American Values” was shooting at a moving target.

@moondrake

Not only is the cost of opening health clinics prohibitive, not only is there a huge gap between the number of poor people needing help and the charitable medical industry

I thought ACA fixed all that…

Didn’t have to Planned Parenthood was already in place. Defunding them is going to prove as effective as repealing before a replacement is ready. Kinda happy I moved away from the city last week could be a long hot summer.

@InnocuousFarmer Well said. I have found that the most effective way to affect change in this vapid political environment is to contact your elected representatives - bug the s–t out of them until they get it. Present cogent points and let them know, without a doubt, what you want. They need your vote, and those of your friends. Some of them may actually have functioning neurons. Money should not help anyone except those who advertise derition, and Donald Trump (and who wants that?).

@ruouttaurmind No, the ACA did not create non-profit providers AFAIK. It did not close the gap between the volume of available non-profit health care and need for care. The costs of that would have been astronomical, and truly socialist, but the resulting infrastructure would have been more stable. Instead, the ACA used existing commercial infrastructure and simply gave a lot of low income people access to for-profit providers. Eliminating or diluting the ACA makes non-profit medical institutions even more critical.

@moondrake

the ACA used existing commercial infrastructure and simply gave a lot of low income people access to for-profit providers

I understand that is the assertion presented to “sell” the program to the public and the media. I’m not totally sure I agree that was actually a result.

As an example, I cite my prior SO and her kids (not my children; please don’t label me as a deadbeat daddy). Prior to the passage of ACA they received health care coverage through our state’s indigent health care system (via commercial health care providers) at no cost to her. After ACA, they received health care coverage through ACA, but she was required to pay monthly premiums. Albeit, a somewhat modest premium, but still out of pocket premiums. Her (very low) income did not change, her healthcare costs did.

As an aside from indigent care, I’ll also share my own experience with ACA:

Prior to ACA, I had private coverage through a regional HMO. My annual premiums were less than $900. Coverage was typical for a (then) private HMO. $10 co-pay, $5 scripts, $75 ER, $250 hospital stay, $2500 max annual OOP, etc, etc, etc. AFTER ACA, my HMO private plan is no longer available. In fact, my HMO is no longer available. So I shop out ACA plans. Only the four available plans through the ACA Marketplace? Really? YES! The lowest cost (considering monthly premiums only) available to me is $238/month, with a $6850 deductible. After that deductible is met, they cover 70%, I cover $30%. So to summarize, my initial out of pocket is $2856 in premiums, plus $6850 annual deductible = $9706 out of my pocket before I realize a single dollar of coverage by this plan. THEN I still have to pay for 30% of all costs thereafter.

Apologies. I digress from the original topic.

My assertion is ACA may not have actually improved health care for nearly as many people as claimed. In fact, I believe inflated numbers are presented by including those that previously were covered under other indigent plans (state indigent care, medicade, etc). I know in the case of my ex SO, ACA drastically harmed her ability to provide health care for her and the kids. Although not indigent, ACA has had a massive impact on my financial situation. Participating in ACA moved me from “reasonably comfortable and making financial progress” to “financial holding pattern”. For example, I’ve had to choose between retirement saving and health care; not a problem prior to ACA.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to pen your initial response. And if you’re reading this line, thank you for taking the time to actually read what nonsense spewed forth from my fingertips.

@ruouttaurmind I try to always read any response to my posts. Thanks for taking time to respond.

I certainly agree that the ACA was not a great result for everyone, it’s definitely an imperfect system. My specific comment was not on the desirability of the ACA, just its nature. The ACA didn’t result in the widespread creation of non-profit clinics, although I’m sure some were created to respond to it. It was intended to piggyback on existing for-profit systems generally accessed thru private insurance. Sort of a form of medical scholarship. The results have definitely been mixed, and a lot of examination and retooling would be needed to make it a genuinely viable program.

In my 30 years work with community agencies, what I saw as the most significant economic problem with indigent health care was that the lack of access to adequate preventive care resulted in widespread, preventable, catastrophic illness which presented a huge drain on community financial and social resources. Heads of household losing limbs to untreated diabetes, becoming unable to work and throwing the whole family onto welfare. Families pushed from working poor to welfare and homelessness by untreated cancer, heart disease, and mental health problems. The most common complaint from our medical providers was that, with insufficient access to clinics, medically indigent clients use the County Hospital emergency room as their primary care provider, an insanely expensive and dangerous situation. So while the ACA is not the solution, it was at least an effort in the right direction. I want to see a plan in place that will provide preventive and primary care for medically indigent persons to relieve the burden on our critical care infrastructure.

Personally, I saw no change in my health care plan. Being fortunate enough to be in overall good health I enrolled in my work’s high deductible plan in order to be eligible for the Health Savings Account. My plan has a $5,000 deductible with 100% coverage in system thereafter. I don’t recall my contribution when employed, but I kept the plan post retirement despite the fact that it costs about 12% of my monthly take home pension, because I was concerned about the ongoing instability in the individual coverage health insurance market and I wanted to be assured of coverage. I continue to contribute another 5% of my income to the HSA to ensure I will have the $5k on hand for the deductible in the event of emergency.

@lisaviolet Started off clueless and blind, and chose to stubbornly stay that way, huh?

@shahnm Why are you taking this personally?

@lisaviolet Because he sold his soul for nothing and people are pointing out that his savior is a buffoon.

@lisaviolet “Why are you taking this personally?”

I’m not. Just hoping that someday, one of you will recognize the hate, bigotry, and hypocrisy in the ways of the left and perhaps choose to let it go.

If I can save just one person, then it’s all worth it…

@cranky1950 You seem like a lot of fun.

@shahnm Well, golly gee whiz, you’ve sure changed my mind. I think that meme did it.

@lisaviolet Would you have actually read through a long, reasoned post? Be honest.

@shahnm Yes, I would have. As long as you kept it on the topic of Trump.

Not Hillary, not Sanders, not their supporters. On Trump. Just Trump.

But the time for that has passed. At this point, I don’t much care about your opinion.

@shahnm I try.

@lisaviolet Thank you for mentioning the stay focused part. I mentioned this above, but I’ll say it again here. This is what’s been driving me nuts about Trump and his followers - Trump uses the phrase “I won” over and over and over again about the election, even today. The election is done. Trump (sadly) won. It’s no longer Trump vs. Hillary. He’s president now, and is still acting like it is all about the victory for the presidency.

Dear Trump: you won 8 months ago. OK, we get it. Now go to work. As much as I cast my vote to vote against you rather than vote for another candidate, the world really needs you to do a good job. I don’t want you to fail because then the country fails.

@bloondie2 There you go projecting yourself to others again. You couldn’t be more wrong.

@cranky1950 I’m projecting myself to others “again”?? Hmm, when was it I allegedly did this before? And, FYI, this forum is about opinions. An opinion can neither be right or wrong. They are personal thoughts. I was merely making a personal observation based on the comments being made. So, what exactly do you feel I’m so “wrong” about?

@bloondie2 Be careful here. Lots and lots of closed-minded, brain washed haters masquerading as reasonable citizens…

Head on over to Huffpo for much more of the same.

@shahnm Thanks for the warning/advice. I’ll be sure to take that into consideration before I comment again. I’m a lover, not a hater. I’m also a Libra, so I try to be as diplomatic as possible!

@narfcake probably from upstate NY. Has a 30" tv and a kegerator in the basement, and is into gravity boots.

@cranky1950 I wish I had some gravity boots.

@lisaviolet They can be real fun.

@cranky1950 when I was 16, a drunk ran a stop sign, broadsided our car and my back was broken, seven thoracic vertebrae ( I was asleep on the backseat.) I lost an inch in height, not cool when you’re already short.

My back settles during the day and gets tired. I think gravity boots would be so relaxing, decompressing the muscles…

@lisaviolet Yeah, that too. You should try them or an inversion frame.

@lisaviolet +1 to @cranky1950’s suggestion of an inversion table. This one’s not a Teeter, but it’s not priced like one either:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003QCI4GG

@narfcake I wish we had room.

@MrMark I was hoping for Lincoln Chafee. The country needs someone who understands the value of New York System wieners.

@cranky1950 Olneyville!

@bloondie2 Kips!

@cranky1950

Coffee milk Weiners and Fries.

@cranky1950 Gaggah’s! I miss these and Del’s. Now I’m hungry.

@bloondie2 They built a Del’s stand at the bottom of the hill in Lonsdale when I was 6, I’m surprised that I have teeth.

@cranky1950 New York system weiner:

@shahnm you just don’t understand the value. There’s nothing that can be done for you until you educate yourself. You simply aren’t equipped to pass judgement.

@cranky1950
This time I just posted something kinda topical and funny (pitiful, but in this context, funny).

Lighten up Cranky. You don’t know me. You’ve ventured some guesses about me, all of which are wildly off. Doesn’t matter. To you, I’m a troll. Not because of anything specific - just that I strongly share an opinion on an open opinion forum that differs from yours. I am not apologetic about my positions, but I am no more vehement nor hyperbolic in my commentary than are many of those with whom you agree. Yet, according to you, I am not equipped to pass judgement.

Try to be a bit happier, Cranky. Maybe you’ll “get things” a bit more. To use the vernacular of your favored cult: try to be Woke.

@cranky1950
You’re cranky.

@djslack I surely wish stuff like this didn’t get traction in here. Neither side will make any headway convincing the other, so it becomes a big name calling commiseration party where each side throws sticks and stones and agree how ignorant the disagreeing opinion is.

And at the end of the day it’s a tangled mess of bad feelings and zero meaningful contribution to the forum, or society in general.

@ruouttaurmind If your feelings are gonna get hurt arguing on the internet, you shouldn’t engage those threads. It’s the internet after all sophistry rules. I don’t think anyone expects to convert the other side, it’s more a cyber dirt clod fight.

@cranky1950 My feelings aren’t, won’t (and don’t) get hurt by this kind of stuff. But it’s obviously not true of everybody who’s been sucked into the troll vortex.

I’m simply commentating on the amount of totally unproductive negativity being generated up in here, innit. As I read through, there are actually a few well thought discussions being conducted with tact and civility. The majority, however, are just vinegar and bad blood.

I am not a fan of sticks and stones. Can’t we all just get along?

/giphy group hug

@ruouttaurmind “Can’t we all just get along?”

Yes, of course we can, in theory.

But look at this tread objectively. The majority of those who posted here, and probably who frequent Meh and Meh’s forums, tend toward the liberal progressive side of the political spectrum. The consensus among them is that I am a troll.

If I had gone to Huffpo or Salon or Mother Jones or one of the liberal echo chamber websites to post the memes and some of the rhetoric I did, then absolutely I would have been a conservative troll in decidedly liberal territory.

But Meh is a general interest place. A place for snarky fun. Perhaps for a bit of shopping. But a non-politically-denominational place. In theory.

The original poster, whether s/he intended it or not, posted a troll post. A lot of adherents to the OP’s philosophy promptly joined in and decided to own the thread with a unilateral political vibe. Much of what they posted, while typical mutual masturbation material for the dedicated left wing sites, was tantamount to trolling at a general interest web site. And of course, some of what they (some of them, anyway) posted was sober and worthy of discussion…

…But when you troll a general interest web site, you get trolled back.

There are two sides. No rational individual should argue that. But that isn’t the point of troll posts. That therefore cannot be the point of troll responses.

I’m going to get back into character now…

@shahnm Where ever someone sits on the political spectrum, there is no cause for name calling and no cause for over generalizations/stereotyping - especially when done with nasty intent. The fact that you have done both repeatedly is, in my opinion, why people have taken offense with your posts. Snark does not include being mean and nasty and the excuse of trolling does not excuse that kind of behavior either. These forums usually stay away from that kind of behavior, regardless of the topic. The incidence of actual nastiness towards others has been very limited here.

@Kidsandliz With all due respect, you don’t get to claim the philosophical high ground here. You can preach all you want, but if you have any interest in being fair, do distribute your sanctimony a bit more equitably. If you do not wish to be fair, then welcome to the troll club.

I started with a couple of silly memes. The name calling and attacks against me began immediately. As I said, this whole thread is a bunch of troll posts. Being in the political majority on this forum does not change that or make the poster less of a troll. My responses, as I said elsewhere in this thread, were not any more vitriolic than those of many of the majority of the posters before and since. You just happen to agree with them.

For the record, the incidence of nastiness here is limited only because counter opinions are rarely posted. I see no reason why that should remain the case. This isn’t a dedicated one-sided political forum, though many of the posters here treat it as one. A little introspection and self reflection would serve everyone well.

I started with a couple of silly memes. The name calling and attacks against me began immediately.

@shahnm Your first post in this thread was name calling. That’s not “silly”; that’s labeling others. Your next two posts are no better. If that’s how you attempt to convince others … well, good luck.

@narfcake My first post in this thread was a meme about the names liberals call conservatives.

It’s a parody/stereotype that exists for a reason. Please reread the meme you just posted, and reflect on it a bit.

@narfcake The very first response to my generic meme post was an ad hominem attack:

“Stupid- adjective - middle class republican.”

@shahnm So who threw the first punch?

Meme? Try history books.

@narfcake The OP. As I have said, this whole thread is a troll.

@shahnm

While you are telling me that I have no right to claim the high ground, I made three posts (not counting this one) and in neither did I name call, etc. Whether or not you like it, that is the high road. The first I asked how my interests were taken care of as a “regular” person, using health care as an example of how they were not.

The second one I pointed out your explicit behavior on this thread and my opinion of it. That I did not address anyone else’s behavior does not somehow mean that my comment about yours is then null and void. Just as two wrongs don’t make a right, neither does two people behaving badly mean it is OK or that pointing it out to only one of them, who is in my opinion the most vocal and frequent offender, mean therefore that somehow I am wrong. Your behavior on this thread says more about you than it does about me. For that I feel sorry for you.

The third was in response to someone else about something else.

@readnj “I never truly realized how awful a human being he was.”

Please explain. What specifically are you talking about? It will not be possible to take you seriously if you start quoting things you heard on CNN or the other tabloid “media”, given the tendency of those organizations to simply concoct their “stories” to fit their memes… It would be like quoting the The National Enquirer. Though to be fair, The National Enquirer did get a few things right in recent years…

@shahnm No quotes, but where should I start. Narcissistic, compulsive liar, refuses to admit he is wrong, bully…

@readnj So it would stand to reason that you felt the same about presidents Clinton and Obama? Those adjectives could and were (if you paid attention objectively) applicable to them as well.

@shahnm If you really believe that and are not just trolling, it isn’t worth my time responding.

@readnj That is why you libs never learn. You see what you want, empowered by the echo chamber of your activist media, and truly and deeply believe the lies (or to be generous, bullshit - some of it is just bullshit) you’re programmed to believe.

A recent article I read comes to mind. This only partly addresses the point here, but you may already have checked out of this discussion (per your last comment), so I’ll spare myself excess effort…

This is from Victor Davis Hanson, who is far more eloquent than I can be…

"Start with the given that there are now regrettably few accepted norms of presidential behavior. Trump’s occasional uncouthness is a symptom, not a catalyst, of the times. Bill Clinton redefined presidential behavior when he had sexual relations with a 22-year-old, unpaid intern (so much for power imbalances as sexual harassment) in the presidential bathroom off the Oval Office, lied about his recklessness to his family and the country, smeared Monica Lewinsky, and then wheeled out to the Rose Garden feminist cabinet officers like Madeline Albright and Donna Shalala to deny and defend his unsavory predatory behavior. After that sordid episode, the apologetic Left lost all credibility as an arbiter of presidential norms.

Indeed, Clinton had brought us into new debased territory. In contrast, George W. Bush for eight years restored honor, integrity, and decorum to the White House. But he was rewarded for exemplary behavior by being branded a Nazi warmonger, as docudrama films and novels appeared imagining his assassination, and even the likes of John Glenn stooped to the Nazi slurs on his character. (“It’s the old Hitler business.”)

Out of office, Bush professionally kept quiet and busy as an accomplished artist, as Obama moved the country leftward. For that, Bush was ridiculed by the Left as reduced to a bewildered, paint-by-numbers dabbler.

The emeritus Obama, by contrast, frolics on billionaires’ yachts docked off tropical islands with the mega-rich whom he attacks in Wall Street chats for $10,000 a minute—and takes a day off from his wind surfing to weigh in on Trump’s unfitness. For all that, he remains a progressive icon."

@shahnm Prolly because Bush the younger is a old money and has his own yacht and is 9 years out of office and old news, Obammy is the first black prez and is a sure ratings boost for urban media and is living it up after nine years of having to give a shit about throwing away taxpayer bucks. Not to mention a sure ratings hit in the redlands as they look for something else to bitch about.

@cranky1950 I mean this question with the utmost sincerity: how on earth did you come to the conclusion that Obama gave a shit about throwing away taxpayer bucks?

@shahnm Look at the degree of restraint he exercised in comparison to what’s going on with your orange god. and look at the vacation he took this year in comparison to past years as prez. Weekends at campdavid cost nothing in comparison to the present guy’s wanderlust. Obama weeks in Martha’s Vineyard cost nothing comepared to trying to secure West Palm Beach or Jersey. Wake up think for yourself, stop swallowing Fox news at gospel.

@cranky1950 I think you really believe what you just wrote. I’m sorry dude (dudette?). Please do a little research on this. The media embargo on non-favorable “news” regarding Obama (and democrats in general) is not a good thing. Go ahead and be a democrat if that’s your thing, but do it as an informed individual making a reasoned choice. You apparently have just been blindly led. I do think I’d like to have a non-troll type discussion with you, but you have to arm yourself with at least some knowledge…

You keep assuming that I’m a fan or devotee of Trump or something. I’m not. I’m DEEPLY pleased that he’s not Hillary, the most venal, corrupt, self-serving politician of my lifetime. I’m reassured in some, but not all, of his conservative bona fides. I’m ecstatic about his SC pick. I’m entirely willing to overlook his boorish, bombastic, narcissistic, megalomaniacal ways, simply because he isn’t a typical go-along-to-get-along political reptile.

The guy had a pretty damn great life. The white house and the trappings of the presidency are probably a bit of a downgrade for him. I highly doubt that ego alone is enough to push him to do this (or keep it up). I think he sees his current role as something bigger than the gold plated Trump signs. If he gets some of the things done that he’s promised, I’ll take the bad with the good.

@shahnm Uh huh. Keep creating you own world it seems to work for you.

@cranky1950 I rest my case. I guess.

I used to take solace in knowing that we would protect you folks from yourselves. I don’t really know why we bother anymore…

@shahnm The post was about Trump then and now. It had nothing to do with others. You don’t even know me yet you categorized me as a “lib”. FYI I’m not.

@readnj Call yourself whatever you wish. It is odd that you would be horrified at the crass words of one, but seemingly accepting of the repulsive deeds of another. If you voluntarily choose to receive only one kinds of news about one president, and filter out negative news about others, so that you can hold on to your views without discomfort, then I don’t really know what else to call you.

@comics360 Examples? Did you come to this realization the very first time you read Mein Kampf, or was it more of a gradual understanding that evolved over numerous readings? I eagerly await your analysis!

@Thumperchick I guess you had to be there. You haven’t been posting umperling pics.

@cranky1950 kidlet has gotten too big to continue putting her likeness on the web. She doesn’t look like an anonymous chubby baby anymore.

@Thumperchick bummer. Guess you gotta make another one.

@cranky1950 nah, it’s your turn.

@Thumperchick nuh uh my last one has left the nest the mantle has been passed on. I have a cat.

@cranky1950 Post pics of cat. This thread needs moar cat pics.
/image moar cat pics

@narfcake She’s not really photogenic this time of year, kind of looks like a squirrel with point ears. Come november when she turns into an animated dustmop I’ll post some.

@cranky1950
/image cat squirrel

/image cat dustmop

@Thumperchick I don’t get the Great Dane one…

@moondrake Because the Great Dane broke the law.

@narfcake Honestly that’s pretty much what she looks like right now.

@cranky1950 My wife came by and asked when I took the picture of Gertie.

@cranky1950 Heh!

/image cats cats cats

@narfcake My house.

@Felton10 7 1/2. Sweet dreams.

@shahnm Don’t know if I could stand another 4 years of Malaria Tramp and trying to figure out what in hell she is talking about.

@somf69

@somf69 as a bernie guy(you can pry the stickers off my car over my cold dead hands) voting for Trump just to spite Hillary, made/still makes absolutely ZERO sense to me…
“I can’t vote for my guy, so i’ll vote the exact opposite!”? WTF?
I’m no fan of Hillary, I knew she would never get elected, having grown up in a DEEP RED county during the Clinton administration, where i heard my own relatives calling her the antichrist…
but I still voted for her this time, choosing in my belief, the lesser of 2 evils…

me most days since the election:

@earlyre Us, too! Honestly, if it hadn’t been for Bernie, I don’t think my husband would have left the Repub party. For the first time in our lives, we donated to a candidate.

And when he wasn’t nominated, we voted blue anyway. We never liked Trump. Long before he was a candidate for president, he was an unethical businessman. Hubby has always been self-employed, in a very small, but lucrative, construction company (high end homes) and he had dealt with people like Trump.

When Bernie wasn’t nominated, there was no question about it. We voted blue.

@Collin1000 We’re not divide any more than in 2000.

@Collin1000 You do realize that the NSA is archiving everything you post online, and that to them you are not anonymous, right?

@Steve7654
Surely we all realize that.

@medz obviously you and trump have the same advisor.

/8ball is @medz 8ball broken?
Without a doubt

@medz

@AnnaB Your post is a breath of fresh air. I say this as a conservative republican.

@AnnaB Yes. It used to be that during the actual time leading up to the elections the candidates went after each other on issues and occasionally personally, and then once they were elected, people put most of their differences aside to try to run the country. This does not appear to be happening as much any more. Instead there is far more obstructionism and refusal to work with the other party on anything, regardless of what it is. There are some notable exceptions but running this country in a way that includes both parties and the desires of the people who live here is something that seems to be falling by the wayside. Instead there is a lot of self interested behavior (and that would be in the self interest of those running this country and their best buds, not the country nor the rest of us) instead of looking to take into account the needs and desires of all. Nasty posts, like the ones that are predominantly by one poster, appear to be in line with that kind of unfortunate behavior as well and doesn’t help the situation.

@Kidsandliz Well said.

And it’s been my experience that ad hominem attacks NEVER change anyone’s mind.

@AnnaB It certainly doesn’t help when the highest role model in the country (the President) behaves that way. If the president is name-calling, then it must be normal, so it’s ok if we all do it too. Being “presidential” is about being civil. Set an example, for crying out loud.

@medz When erstwhile media groups decide to stop reporting, and start an unyielding narrative to destroy a president, it stands to reason that the human response would be to fight back.

Trump isn’t elegant or refined in his approach, but a heck of a lot of people are willing to take his boorish approach for what it is and be quietly happy he fights back.

@shahnm So you’re saying that as long as the media reports the alternative facts they are fed as gospel life will be rosey?

@AnnaB unfortunately people seem to insist on creating echo chambers and steadfastly refuse to consider that the other side’s opinions and positions might have any degree of merit behind them. This ‘my way or the highway’ attitude is why we can’t achieve any actual progress. The politicians are going to keep playing to their bases and their bases keep telling them they want unyielding adherence to their ideals, that there’s no room for a middle ground. It’s a really sad and frustrating situation.

@AnnaB

Historically, socially decent and respectful conduct is public was more commonplace for much of the last century.

Also, the common shared traumas of the WWI, the Great Depression, WWII bonded together various times spoke from all walks of life and pov’s. They all shared the teadtedues and sacrifices along the way.

This was followed by the Cold War and the possibility of world wide annihiliation of human life and civilization, combined with a choice among all of our Oresidents if the era that it was worth risks and errors in trying to keep communist expansion in check.

As horrible as many if those courses of action could be in some cases firing the actions chosen, it was a time of often no good paths forward in international terms. Only less terrible and more terrible.

And the generations in power had all fought in WWII, from Eisenhower to GHWBush.

Then the wall came down. The West won the Cold War.

Not so much left to fear anymore.

Unfortunately, this event did not bring out the best, among political types. It seemed (to me) to lead to all sorts of hubris and self-righteousness from every part of the political spectrum.

People came into power who were very ambitious, sometimes very manipulative, and who did not come from a generation that had, when young, endured a series of terrible shared sacrifices.

When what has been called the Greatest Generation we’re finished with WWII, they had already been in hell. There were, even at age 18, not children or adolescents.

They had a world to rebuild, and altho they did some terrible things among the way, and had some terrible flaws and blindnesses, they did credibly rebuild that world.

I hope the best parts of civil and respectful conduct in the public sphere aren’t gone for good.

I hope future generations understand what they have been given: the good and the bad.

@AnnaB I always considered myself a moderate democrat, and realize we all need to compromise to get things accomplished. However, it is very difficult to find any common ground with people whose world view consists of greed and self interest with no respect for others. Racism, bigotry, homophobia, wanting to take health care from people less fortunate than themselves, destroying the social safety nets that keep many people from living on the streets, actively working to prevent millions of citizens from being allowed to vote, denying science, and wanting to shove their brand of religion down everyone else’s throats are all things that I find unacceptable on a very basic level and can not compromise at all on. The right wing republican extremists that took over their party made it what it is, and now all of the rest f us that used to be in the center are labelled “far left liberal extremists” when our values and opinions have not really changed much at all. We believe in basic decency and in helping others that are less fortunate. We believe in taking care of the elderly and sick. We believe racism is wrong, and in freedom of religion. We believe sexual orientation is a personal issue, and that it is wrong to discriminate legally or otherwise against people because of it. We believe in separation of church and state, and that the laws of our country and our constitution should apply to everyone, even if they are rich. We believe our ancestors worked hard and died to make our country a super power and a moral compass in the world, that having allies matters, and that our position as a world leader is not something to throw away for no reason.

These are what used to be pretty middle of the road values and civil rights, and it is difficult to imagine compromise when a party is actively working to take them away from everyone except themselves.

@Steve7654

The right wing republican extremists that took over their party made it what it is

Not quite so, but close.

The billionaire and extremely wealthy extreme right-wing class will generously fund extreme conservative primary opponents against any Republican candidate who espouses environmental, safety-net, consumer-protection, education, commerce, healthcare, and tax positions they don’t like. These members of the extremely wealthy class will put up with the bigotry and religious agenda positions they can live with with, because that buys them a “bigger base”.

Many Congressional Republicans are or have been privately sensible on science, education, the environment, and healthcare. If they voted that way, they then tended to get beaten by very well-funded extreme right wing candidates in primaries; in red districts, the Republican candidate is usually “safe”.

Trump’s election signifies a marked change in our political sensibilities as a nation, wherever individuals may stand. Where that leads? Who knows?

@Steve7654 -
Thank you for beautifully expressing the thoughts and feelings many of us are experiencing.

@Steve7654

The straightjacket of the ultra-conservative economic, social, and business classes over the Republicam Party is now so tight that many of the Republicans held in very high esteem on the national stage from 1945 onwards would not be welcomed in the party now. Their political, economic, and social philosophies would be seen as being next door to socialism or radicalism.

Many Republicans on the Hill flat out do not vote or speak their consciences. They can’t, unlessthey wish both to be pilloried now and brutally primaried as soon as they come up for election.

@medz @shahnm “When erstwhile media groups decide to stop reporting, and start an unyielding narrative to destroy a president”
I know they did try to do this to Obama. Luckily he is a man and not a victim like trumpo

@medz @roberth48 Why are you necroposting on a thread from over three years ago? Take me out of this thread please - I’m not doing politics at Meh. I’m trying to not even look at these threads these days.

@cranky1950 Don’t know yet. I’m really hoping he’ll say something about the protestors in Hamburg. The protest is called ‘Welcome to Hell’.

@OldCatLady It could be worse. Felonia von Pantsuit might have been president, and then we really would have been screwed.

You’re already screwed. G-20 summit and the US is playing leftoff.

@OldCatLady “”"""""""""“Protestors”""""""""""""""
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/07/europe/g20-hamburg-protests/index.html

@KDemo I dunno, they’ll be replacing an Easter and Christmas christian with a Westboro Baptist

@cranky1950 - Another despicable choice, I know, but being on the west coast I’d have a better chance of surviving N Korea’s war games. 45 is bungling this bigly.

@KDemo I would LOVE to buy a T-shirt like that, or a mashup with this one:
http://shirt.woot.com/offers/modern-myths-ii?ref=cnt_ctlg_dgn_26

@narfcake You really do believe that conservatives resort to name calling more than liberals?

I respectfully disagree. And I start with the simple observation (and reality), that very often, when a conservative raised an argument against Obama or one of his misguided policies, the response was so very often, “Racist!”.

Conservatives are routinely labeled a wide variety of *ists, *phobes, and other *-suffixes, to avoid, shut down, or shout down arguments against any number of liberal ideas.

Are you willing to sanction that the intellectual platform of the left (far too often) is to insult or name-call their opposition? Have you seen the Democrat slogan for 2018? This is who you want to be?

@shahnm I didn’t even state which party this was applying to, but with your defense, now we know! Thank you!

And yes, I’ve seen the other guys – and the policies being pushed forth has rightfully earned some of them such names. Why do you think I changed?!

@narfcake Yeah, so did my husband after 41 years (with little encouragement from me, really not that much - his family all supports *45). Thirty-one years of being on opposite sides of the fence.

It’s nice.

@narfcake Spare me the fake surprise. You posted a very similar meme above, in response to a different post in which I made my political persuasion very clear.

So we’re clear, you’re now saying that the names that liberals call conservatives are justified? And you changed either because you didn’t like being called those names, or you realized that those names were accurate in your case and you switched sides to avoid having to face your own demons? Or did you fail to see the demons until liberals called you names, and only then realized the error of your erstwhile ways?

I’m basing that entirely upon what you just said. It seems dreadfully unfortunate, if any of those reasons are true.

And for clarity, you seem to have seen and believed the caricatures of the “other guys” as portrayed by our cartel of liberal dogma (media, academics, etc). If you saw that that distortion actually reflected you, then I believe you made the correct choice in switching sides.

@shahnm Media wasn’t what convinced me. Reality was.

@lisaviolet Working in construction, the “let it burn” attitude that the right exhibited in not voting for the ARRA back in 2009 was a major confirmation the party didn’t care for the working class American. At all. I recall arguments about “an artificial economy” – never mind that for several years with full deregulation, the banking sector created an artificial economy for the US also.

In more recent months, the big campaign promise about saving jobs, and making sure ALL the press knew that a big deal was made with Carrier. $7-million in grants and tax breaks to save all most 1,100 800 jobs – money to be spent for more workers more robots.

338 are scheduled for termination in two weeks, 290 to be terminated on December 22. Yes, what a fine “Merry Christmas!” present from the POTUS …
/s

http://www.thedailybeast.com/carrier-sends-jobs-to-mexico-workers-say-trump-misled-them
https://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/6/22/1674263/-Months-after-Trump-s-hype-Carrier-announces-600-layoffs

@narfcake Were you as troubled by the hundreds of billions thrown away on fake “stimulus”, which turned out to be nothing more than gifts and graft for democrat special interest groups? That “created or saved” perhaps dozens of jobs. Or the out right lies about keeping your doc or health insurance? Those were foisted on us through the “stupidity of the American voter”, to use the verbiage of the principal drafter of the democrats’ bill.

Based upon your math, one president is the worst thing ever to happen to America, while the other is a lightbringer, who justifiably sends tingles up the legs of the media and his sycophantic devotees,

You need perspective. And perhaps to stop getting your news from the beast and kos. Or at least balance it with some other sources. No news source is entirely objective anymore, so it really is a personal responsibility to become and stay informed.

I’ve enjoyed this, but I’m out. You are welcome to the last word, if you wish. I’ll read it.

Until the next unnecessary left-wing troll thread is posted in this otherwise happy place of fun and merriment,
shahnm

@shahnm I think you missed the part before where I said “Not media. Reality.” And while I’m no mathematician, whether you take a low of 1.6 million or a high of 3.6 million, either number is greater than “dozens of jobs”.

Of course, I could be fully mistaken and that you’re talking about the billions spent on a handful of contractors that were in charge of rebuilding infrastructure in other countries …

@shahnm Our local stimulus funds were invested in microenterprise support programs. The program was sufficuently successful that after the stimulus money was gone we continued funding it through our CDBG funding. I don’t remember exact numbers (been retired a couple of years), but to the best of my recollection the 2 employee, $75K per year program works with a minimum of 100 small local businesses annually. I can factually state that stimulus dollars created and saved jobs locally, and kept many very small local businesses, 4 employees or fewer, from going under by providing micro loans and technical help making these mom and pop operations operate legally, efficiently, and providing them tax prep help. Microenterprise entrepreneurs are a big part of our local economy, but most of these small business folk have built their business around a specific skill and have no clue how to navigate rules and laws and the IRS. They are way too small and undercapitalized to get help from the SBA.

@shahnm Well, have you seen them, and the horrible things they want to do to everyone else? Actions speak for themselves. I kind of like the slogan; it sums things up nicely.

@Felyne I agree with all of that, except that the ‘embarrassment’ is not felt by 37% of the populace. @f00l floated the idea that all his AND HIS FAMILY’s ‘business deals’ which involved Russian contacts were ‘magic’, and his ‘success’ was a KGB creation. Real estate sold for incredibly inflated prices. Labor costs for his construction were astonishingly low. Those income tax returns, when released, will be fascinating.

@OldCatLady just got this in, might be of interest… Rachel Maddow warns: People are trying to fool the media with forged documents - Salon.com

The video is - as always - lengthy. The most pertinent point is that someone is sending MSM news outlets fake documents that look so real that said outlets will scoop them quickly. The Intercept example is a case in point (as is her point that the Intercept is pretty amazingly sceptical on Russian interference, meaning they’re being played). And I had no idea about the printer markings … who knew?

So someone is doing this with the sole aim to discredit the MSM. ‘Prove’ that, by posting what are really forged NSA documents, they fell for something and didn’t source the story correctly. Ergo, the MSM is ‘fake news’.

Interesting.

@OldCatLady
Let me mention that this is a theory. As in, unproven.

In part, based on his recent (last decade or more) public conduct. Let’s just say, he has not behaved like someone who is keeping the details of complex real estate transactions in his head, and reassessing them and his financial position continuously, as is commonplace for persons in that business and in that tax bracket (a family member has done legal work in this industry).

And there are verified instances of Trump’s companies getting sweet deals and astonishing offers from Russian-connected money, as well as serious political favors in areas where Russian -connected money had a lot of influence.

And his main creditors seem to be the European banks that have been charged with massive money laundering for the Russian government and Russian interests. (US banks won’t lend to Trump. And many blue-chip legal firms won’t do legal work for his businesses either; among the reasons being that he and his companies have a track record of not paying their legal bills, and that he ignores sound legal advice.)

None of this proves anything.

I personally do not believe Trump is a Russian agent ior anything close, in the sense that we normally think about these things. I don’t believe he is controllable that way. I believe the Russian may have sought to get him to be an informal asset for Russian interests, and a conduit into the US, and there may be persons within his organization who have a more explicit “understanding” with certain Russian and Russian connected individuals. I believe the Russians have taken an interest in attempting to use Trump to their own advantage for at least a decade, possibly more.

As for the “dirty dossier”, I don’t believe that Trump is a person who is strictly controllable that way. And Trump will eventually turn on and attack anyone who puts him under too much pressure.

At this point, I just want him not to start or trigger WWIII or a nuclear encounter, and want his admin to not trigger, promote, or collude in events that destroy us.

Trump is far more unpredictable than our customary political leaders. He appears to live, intellectually, on slogans. Much in his agenda seems to depend on the internal fights over “who gets to influence him today”. He and his admin may not wind up, politically, where they appear to be at present. Over the course of 4 years, he may go back to some of the political positions he espoused for most of his adult life.

In any case, he’s what we’ve got.

@Felyne
"Playing" the MSM is a very old game, centuries if not millennia old.

Now this game is playing at prev unimaginable heights of intensity and volume of content. Our media and our understanding of media are going to change over these coming 3-1/2 years.

And not necessarily in the direction that those who decry MSM as being “fake” (As compared to what??? Sure.) would seem to prefer.

Sometimes, in political terms, we start to feel “safe” for a while. And then sometimes …

Whatever we will become as a nation, Trump’s election and his actions mark a singular divide. We will not be as we are now.

I hope we manage to become “better”. And if we do manage to become “a more perfect union” or a “better world” somehow, Trump may well play a positive role along the way, here and there. But he will not be the role model for what we try to become.

History tends to look “inevitable” after the fact.
At the time? The wheel’s still in spin.

@f00l The governor of Maine wants printed media to go away NOW. Seriously. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/maine-governor-says-sooner-print-press-goes-away-better-society-will/#

@OldCatLady

Now there’s a guy who’s just known for his judgement.

Some Of Paul LePage’s Greatest Hits

“Sen. Jackson claims to be for the people, but he’s the first one to give it to the people without providing Vaseline.” To WMTW-TV in Portland, Maine

“If you want a good education, go to private schools. If you can’t afford it, tough luck. You can go to the public school.” At an education panel hosted by a community college

“And as your governor, you’re gonna be seeing a lot of me on the front page saying ‘Gov. LePage tells Obama to go to hell.’” During his 2010 campaign

“What I am trying to say is the Holocaust was a horrific crime against humanity and, frankly, I would never want to see that repeated. Maybe the IRS is not quite as bad—yet.” To Vermont’s 7 Days

@f00l They changed the way voting works (ranked choice) just so the situation that led to being elected can never happen again.

@Pantheist
Ok thx.

@f00l @Pantheist that led to him being elected*

@Pantheist that’s interesting to know. Would love to see that system in, say, some primaries, especially ones with lots of candidates…

@OldCatLady
A lot of solid thought there. While our President and much of the West Wing follows the path of empty slogans and self-delusion, the sober parts of the world move forward for good or ill: for the West, against the West, or around the West.

I hope it just doesn’t turn out quite that badly. There are some few notable incredibly intelligent and competent people in Trump’s cabinet, (I believe, because they think that, when called, they must do their best.) And also some on the Hill. And many of the civil service.

Competent and decent people in government have restrained things or managed to have their voices heard during other dark times, and have influenced policy toward happier results. I hope this happens in thus admin.

Robert Gates is said to have told various people who Trump wanted for various security and FP positions something to the effect of “if you think you can work with him, and your personal factors don’t prevent you, then you have to do it.”

I hope many of the domestic cabinet picks won’t last that long in office. Usually there are some notable cabinet shakeouts during the first two years.

@sohmageek He is still a steaming piece of shit.

@Felton10 @sohmageek Felty, you should consider investing in a thesaurus. Your limited vocabulary is holding you back…

@blaineg aka one of the nations best presidents yet. Policies like Clinton. Yet people liked Clinton.