I’m watching these Kelvin heaters for a price decrease before buying one.
I’ve used similar technology although without the improved surface radiation, and it was amazingly comfortable- as long as you were within it’s penumbra.
@Bigbearballs@PhysAssist Dangit - I just read the Wirecutter review of the Kelvin and so “Infrared” in the description of this one got me all excited, because we do have that one room (spare bedroom/office) in the house that the existing heater doesn’t reach. I recently bought an air vent/register “booster” because our kid is back home from college (it’s their old room), and enh, MAYBE it makes 1-2ºF difference.
The reviews on Amazon seem fine, but when it comes to heaters I need to know two things.
Can it melt itself in normal operation?
Is it safe to plug into a power strip?
I have had heaters that you turn them on for an hour and the heating element breaks.
OR the heater does work, but it shuts off the power or melts the power strip.
I have experimented with heaters and it has been a misadventure.
@AaronLeeJohnson Heaters and other high power draw appliances should generally only be plugged directly into the wall unless the power strip or extension cord is properly rated.
@AaronLeeJohnson
No heating unit worth their UL rating is going to advertise they are extension-cord or power-strip safe. Because they draw a lot of energy very quickly and most cords and strips are not rated to handle that.
Heck, a toaster is a good example of a tiny appliance that you would think can’t be a danger because it’s so small and only stays on for a minute - but in that minute it asks for a lot. If it stayed on 30 minutes or longer, that “a lot” would probably cause the cord some stress (at first heating, then melting the insulation around it, then setting something nearby on fire).
The good thing is that most heaters sold in the USA can’t melt themselves (unless they’re trapped in a small space and/or something gets stuck in their in/out vents - most will ask for 3’ of space in front and back and maybe an extra 1’ on the sides). But like in the toaster description above, are apt to melt everything else around them.
I have experimented with heaters and it has been a misadventure.
OK, secret tip: I use several heaters on weak power strips. They all have a “low” setting which only draws half the watts a normal setting would use (usually 800~1000 instead of 1500+) – keep in mind your laptop or phone charger draws around 50-150 watts and the cheapest surge protector only protects up to the 800-1100 range (hence the warnings of “don’t overburden your a strip”). Thankfully most of the cheap strips do have surge protection (where if the power ask/draw gets too high it shuts itself off) – but don’t rely on that as the emergency shut off isn’t instantaneous and itself can also break if used too often.
@djslack maybe it bottles up all the heat it removes from the air deep inside like childhood trauma and saves it to use in winter time? I’m just spitballing here
@djslack It could be a “swamp cooler”, which lowers the temperature by increasing the humidity (up to the point where the humidity can’t increase any farther, and you’re still miserable).
@djslack@superpope I have been wishing for the inverse electric heater that takes heat out of a room and generates power. You’d almost think that would be possible, especially if you follow some internetz sitez! Unfortunately from college course in thermodynamics still remember that it basically doesn’t work that way. You can make the heat from power but after that all you can do is use more power to move it somewhere else. So unfair!
@3Phen@djslack I believe increasing humidity makes it feel warmer, not cooler unless you are blowing air across a cool surface like ice cubes or cold water.
For the majority of households (a hypothetical statistic), the primary function of HVAC systems is to dehumidify the air as they cool. The exception to this rule occurs in arid regions, such as deserts, where swamp coolers are effective. A typical configuration involves installing a swamp cooler on the roof of a residential building. Upon returning home, the homeowner activates the swamp cooler while simultaneously opening windows to the surrounding desert environment. The high humidity air emanating from the swamp cooler promptly evaporates into the outdoor air, thereby facilitating the cooling process. It is crucial to note that the introduction of moisture itself does not contribute to cooling; rather, the evaporation of the moisture is the key factor.
On another note, thank you ChatGPT for rewriting my note above… lol
@djslack Yes, it is just a fan - which actually warms the air, just as any fan does.
So, why do you feel cooler? The answer is twofold:
the moving air is still cooler than your 98° body temp; and
sweat evaporates faster in the moving air, thus cooling you more than if you were in still air.
Now look at their claim: that it reduces “True Feel Temperature” in 15 seconds. So what is “True Feel Temperature”? It is what I described above - the feeling that the temperature is cooler if the air is blowing.
Yeah, they just discovered something called the “Wind Chill Factor” - but I guess “True Feel Temperature” is more marketable.
Did you know all electric space heaters are 100% efficient? Every last one in them. Some heat differently (e.g. radiant v hot air) but there is no magic in a space heater.
@ksujeff99 man, now you tell me. I’m way past my return window on my Amazing Jonathan space heater and guillotine combo. I was just getting up the nerve to perform it in front of the family at Christmas this year.
@ksujeff99 The magic lies in heat being the universal waste product.
Power cord resistance? The cord heats up (remember all those warnings against using lightweight extension). Power used by the fan? Partly heats the air, partly ‘loses’ power due to bearing friction - but that ‘loss’ makes the bearing a heating element of its own.
As @getkind pointed out, 1500 watts = 1500 watts. If you are pulling 1500 watts out of the wall socket, that 1500 watts has to go somewhere - and it will end up as heat. And as you point out, how it’s converted doesn’t change the end result.
@getkind@ksujeff99@rpstrong what about the noise created? That doesn’t convert to heat, at least not enough to substantiate the “100% efficient” for the heaters with fans, at least.
@ksujeff99 That is true. It is also true that heat pumps are more than 100% efficient in terms of warmth added to the room per unit energy. That is because they don’t create much heat at all, mostly they just move heat from the outside to the inside. You can move heat more efficiently than you can create it.
@getkind@Jaballer@ksujeff99 Interesting question. What is noise? The sound waves contain energy, which partially warms the air, and which is both reflected and absorbed by the room and its contents. The absorption warms the room; the reflection bounces into the next object.
Assuming that the room is sealed, the noise will give up sufficient energy to justify the efficiency 100% claim. (100% with no decimals means that your true value is greater or equal to than 99.5 but less than 100.5).
@jandrese@ksujeff99 between YouTube channels Technology Connections and Bens Appliances and Junk, home heaters are all the same except for price tag.
They have marginal speed differences, unless you need to get warm right away (then you stand in front of one), heating a room will simply take time (and good insulation… Or massive power drain).
I’m just wary that in this case, what sounds like a swamp heater, there will be mold leftovers.
it’s funny because meh claims this has heat and cool modes, but unless the laws of thermodynamics no longer apply, it really has heat and heat less modes.
@elpepe Just a guess here, but it could be using similar technology to heated & cooled seats in some vehicles for the “cooling”. It’s called the “Peltier effect”. It could also assist in heating, too. Which may contribute to not burning your skin when touched.
@blaineg@elpepe@Jpowe11 If it used a thermoelectric device it would be like buying a mini fridge and leaving its door open to cool down your living room.
@blaineg@ddbelyea@elpepe That’s sorta what the EdenPure is doing. Any heat that it’s supposedly removing to provide cool air has to be diverted somewhere. It doesn’t magically disappear.
@blaineg@ddbelyea@elpepe@Jpowe11 They’re expert at weasel words. They never claim to be cooling the air, only that it feels cooler - just like every other fan.
It is nothing other than the ‘Fan’ mode that I’ve seen on every space heater that I’ve owned.
[I wouldn’t dream of using them as room heaters. One went in a very cramped bathroom, about three feet from the throne. Did fine there. The only other use I had for them was under my desk, especially effective in the corner of my office.]
“The EdenPURE 360 Super Climater can change an 86 degree temperature completely around the unit to a 71.3 degree True Feel Temperature in 15 seconds. You can then turn up your home thermostat to 86 degrees which greatly reduces the operation time of your air conditioner. But, you will be cool and comfortable in the room with your EdenPURE 360 Super Climater.”
Talk about back to the future! This device seemingly defies the laws of physics. This could be the answer to climate change.
Or, it just blows air on your skin to evaporate sweat and absorb heat as the liquid changes to gas.
The EdenPURE 360 Super Climater operates on 120 volts, 60 Hz and uses 12 amps. It has a fan setting that draws 3.8W on low and 84.7W on high, while the heat settings draw 1000W on low and 1500W on high.
Flanders and Swann have something to say about this “cooling” function:
Oh, you can’t pass heat from the cooler to the hotter
You can try it if you like but you’ll only look a fool-er
'Cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
And that’s a physical law…
These conversations keep me occupied for hours! Thank you, everyone…fascinating stuff…end result, no purchase from me!
You guys should all just follow me around and comment on every purchase I make!
Specs
Product: EdenPure 360 Super Climater Infrared Space Heater and Cooler
Model: ED7457
Condition: New
What’s Included?
Price Comparison
$274 at Amazon
More reviews at Sylvane
Warranty
1 Year Limited Warranty
Estimated Delivery
Thursday, Dec 26 - Monday, Dec 30
Some good reviews, some bad reviews? Yall know anything?
@Bigbearballs
There are these:
Bob Vila EdenPURE Heaters Are a Scam!
https://dengarden.com/products/edenpure-scam-revealed
1.0 out of 5 stars The EdenPURE Story: Fraud From Beginning To End
https://www.amazon.com/review/R2DSAMCLPUTTB1/#:~:text=1.0 out of,Beginning To End
Ad watchdog tells EdenPure to tone down space heater claims
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2012/08/ad-watchdog-tells-edenpure-to-tone-down-space-heater-claims/index.htm#:~:text=In Consumer Reports space heater,enough to cause a burn.
and in contrast:
I Have the Coldest Bedroom. But This Fancy Space Heater Finally Did the Trick.
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/boldr-kelvin-review/
I’m watching these Kelvin heaters for a price decrease before buying one.
I’ve used similar technology although without the improved surface radiation, and it was amazingly comfortable- as long as you were within it’s penumbra.
@Bigbearballs @PhysAssist Dangit - I just read the Wirecutter review of the Kelvin and so “Infrared” in the description of this one got me all excited, because we do have that one room (spare bedroom/office) in the house that the existing heater doesn’t reach. I recently bought an air vent/register “booster” because our kid is back home from college (it’s their old room), and enh, MAYBE it makes 1-2ºF difference.
@Bigbearballs @notyoutoo @PhysAssist I’m curious (mostly wary) about the “moisture heating”
@Bigbearballs @notyoutoo
That was what made me interested too, then disappointed…
Seems big. It needs a banana for scale.
@heartny yes I agree
@heartny @mycya4me
22 1/2" H x 12”D x 12” W
I’m gonna say 22 1/2" high is 3 average bananas.
@heartny @Lynnerizer Looks like that Minions would LOVE that!
@heartny better scale than a banana
@heartny @pixelated one-arm that 14-lb baby!
Looks more like a Climaxer
@Num1Zero Or a bug catcher.
The reviews on Amazon seem fine, but when it comes to heaters I need to know two things.
Can it melt itself in normal operation?
Is it safe to plug into a power strip?
I have had heaters that you turn them on for an hour and the heating element breaks.
OR the heater does work, but it shuts off the power or melts the power strip.
I have experimented with heaters and it has been a misadventure.
@AaronLeeJohnson
I wouldnt plug a 12 amp load into a powerstip.
@AaronLeeJohnson Heaters and other high power draw appliances should generally only be plugged directly into the wall unless the power strip or extension cord is properly rated.
@AaronLeeJohnson You’re not supposed to plug heaters into power strips. That’s just a general electrical safety rule.
@AaronLeeJohnson
Short answer- Yes and No.
@AaronLeeJohnson @dijit27
…and that also means nothing else should be co-existing/using that power strip.
@AaronLeeJohnson
No heating unit worth their UL rating is going to advertise they are extension-cord or power-strip safe. Because they draw a lot of energy very quickly and most cords and strips are not rated to handle that.
Heck, a toaster is a good example of a tiny appliance that you would think can’t be a danger because it’s so small and only stays on for a minute - but in that minute it asks for a lot. If it stayed on 30 minutes or longer, that “a lot” would probably cause the cord some stress (at first heating, then melting the insulation around it, then setting something nearby on fire).
The good thing is that most heaters sold in the USA can’t melt themselves (unless they’re trapped in a small space and/or something gets stuck in their in/out vents - most will ask for 3’ of space in front and back and maybe an extra 1’ on the sides). But like in the toaster description above, are apt to melt everything else around them.
OK, secret tip: I use several heaters on weak power strips. They all have a “low” setting which only draws half the watts a normal setting would use (usually 800~1000 instead of 1500+) – keep in mind your laptop or phone charger draws around 50-150 watts and the cheapest surge protector only protects up to the 800-1100 range (hence the warnings of “don’t overburden your a strip”). Thankfully most of the cheap strips do have surge protection (where if the power ask/draw gets too high it shuts itself off) – but don’t rely on that as the emergency shut off isn’t instantaneous and itself can also break if used too often.
@AaronLeeJohnson I’m all squared away on the Power Strip question.
@AaronLeeJohnson Don’t be silly, a square power strip wouldn’t work any better. They aren’t rated for the load.
@AaronLeeJohnson @winfield A Square D one, perhaps? (I kid, I kid)
Not signing up for this one, but “heavenly heat” beats “hellish heat” six days out of every Sunday.
“Climater?” What a dumb “word.”
@Kyeh
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Annual_Global_Orgasm_for_Peace
@pakopako But wouldn’t that be the “Climaxer?”
https://meh.com/forum/topics/edenpure-360-super-climater-infrared-space-heater-and-cooler#6764fb5bf4569aa48708ddd5
The heater part I can believe.
The cooler part is either just a fan or a device that defies the laws of physics.
@djslack maybe it bottles up all the heat it removes from the air deep inside like childhood trauma and saves it to use in winter time? I’m just spitballing here
@djslack It could be a “swamp cooler”, which lowers the temperature by increasing the humidity (up to the point where the humidity can’t increase any farther, and you’re still miserable).
@djslack @superpope I have been wishing for the inverse electric heater that takes heat out of a room and generates power. You’d almost think that would be possible, especially if you follow some internetz sitez! Unfortunately from college course in thermodynamics still remember that it basically doesn’t work that way. You can make the heat from power but after that all you can do is use more power to move it somewhere else. So unfair!
@3Phen @djslack I believe increasing humidity makes it feel warmer, not cooler unless you are blowing air across a cool surface like ice cubes or cold water.
@djslack Well, it says it’s “200% better at cooling than a ceiling fan”
And the cooling power of a ceiling fan is approximately zero (in reality it’s heating the room about the same as an old 75W lightbulb)
So the advertised 200% of a little worse than a ΔT of zero isn’t technically false.
@3Phen @djslack @nigebirch That’s exactly what a swamp cooler does. It has a wicking surface that’s placed in water, then a fan blows through it
@3Phen @djslack @g2geo94 @nigebirch
For the majority of households (a hypothetical statistic), the primary function of HVAC systems is to dehumidify the air as they cool. The exception to this rule occurs in arid regions, such as deserts, where swamp coolers are effective. A typical configuration involves installing a swamp cooler on the roof of a residential building. Upon returning home, the homeowner activates the swamp cooler while simultaneously opening windows to the surrounding desert environment. The high humidity air emanating from the swamp cooler promptly evaporates into the outdoor air, thereby facilitating the cooling process. It is crucial to note that the introduction of moisture itself does not contribute to cooling; rather, the evaporation of the moisture is the key factor.
On another note, thank you ChatGPT for rewriting my note above… lol
@djslack Yes, it is just a fan - which actually warms the air, just as any fan does.
So, why do you feel cooler? The answer is twofold:
Now look at their claim: that it reduces “True Feel Temperature” in 15 seconds. So what is “True Feel Temperature”? It is what I described above - the feeling that the temperature is cooler if the air is blowing.
Yeah, they just discovered something called the “Wind Chill Factor” - but I guess “True Feel Temperature” is more marketable.
@djslack @superpope
Wouldn’t that be awesome- it’s would be something, like, wait for it…
A heat pump…
FOOLS! TOOLS! JEWELS! AWESOME!
@djslack @PhysAssist @superpope without the fins and ribs sticking out of your house!
@pakopako but those are the tastiest parts of the shark pig!
1500 watts = 1500 watts = 1500 watts.
@getkind Preach, brother
@getkind
…and their ad copy says that the actual wattages are significantly less- per the 1-star Amazon review I copied above.
Did you know all electric space heaters are 100% efficient? Every last one in them. Some heat differently (e.g. radiant v hot air) but there is no magic in a space heater.
@ksujeff99 But did you also know that this one supers the climater?
@ksujeff99 I’m holding out for a time heater, or… ideally… a spacetime heater.
@ksujeff99 man, now you tell me. I’m way past my return window on my Amazing Jonathan space heater and guillotine combo. I was just getting up the nerve to perform it in front of the family at Christmas this year.
@ksujeff99 Did you know that every machine is a smoke machine if you operate it badly enough?
@ksujeff99 The magic lies in heat being the universal waste product.
Power cord resistance? The cord heats up (remember all those warnings against using lightweight extension). Power used by the fan? Partly heats the air, partly ‘loses’ power due to bearing friction - but that ‘loss’ makes the bearing a heating element of its own.
As @getkind pointed out, 1500 watts = 1500 watts. If you are pulling 1500 watts out of the wall socket, that 1500 watts has to go somewhere - and it will end up as heat. And as you point out, how it’s converted doesn’t change the end result.
@getkind @ksujeff99 @rpstrong what about the noise created? That doesn’t convert to heat, at least not enough to substantiate the “100% efficient” for the heaters with fans, at least.
@ksujeff99 That is true. It is also true that heat pumps are more than 100% efficient in terms of warmth added to the room per unit energy. That is because they don’t create much heat at all, mostly they just move heat from the outside to the inside. You can move heat more efficiently than you can create it.
@getkind @Jaballer @ksujeff99 Interesting question. What is noise? The sound waves contain energy, which partially warms the air, and which is both reflected and absorbed by the room and its contents. The absorption warms the room; the reflection bounces into the next object.
Assuming that the room is sealed, the noise will give up sufficient energy to justify the efficiency 100% claim. (100% with no decimals means that your true value is greater or equal to than 99.5 but less than 100.5).
@getkind @Jaballer @ksujeff99 @rpstrong It does turn to heat, actually. It’s a trivial amount, but it’s there.
@jandrese @ksujeff99 between YouTube channels Technology Connections and Bens Appliances and Junk, home heaters are all the same except for price tag.
They have marginal speed differences, unless you need to get warm right away (then you stand in front of one), heating a room will simply take time (and good insulation… Or massive power drain).
I’m just wary that in this case, what sounds like a swamp heater, there will be mold leftovers.
@jandrese @ksujeff99 @pakopako No, it isn’t a swamper - it is only a fan. (In ‘Cool’ mode, that is.)
Is this really that much better than a milk house heater?
@tweezak No better in terms of output! 1500 watts = approx. 5400Btu\Hr. no matter the dispenser.
@krmugn52 @tweezak
Lest the wires [and the wall] catch on fire [if the breaker doesn’t trip].
How does this thing cool a room besides just being a fan?
@mypiesarepiff Having a fan (who is just short of being a stalker) can make you feel pretty cool.
it’s funny because meh claims this has heat and cool modes, but unless the laws of thermodynamics no longer apply, it really has heat and heat less modes.
@elpepe Just a guess here, but it could be using similar technology to heated & cooled seats in some vehicles for the “cooling”. It’s called the “Peltier effect”. It could also assist in heating, too. Which may contribute to not burning your skin when touched.
@elpepe @Jpowe11 Peltier coolers create more heat than they remove, so this thing would still be a net heater.
@blaineg @elpepe @Jpowe11 If it used a thermoelectric device it would be like buying a mini fridge and leaving its door open to cool down your living room.
@blaineg @ddbelyea @elpepe @Jpowe11 Set it in the doorway?
@blaineg @ddbelyea @elpepe That’s sorta what the EdenPure is doing. Any heat that it’s supposedly removing to provide cool air has to be diverted somewhere. It doesn’t magically disappear.
@blaineg @ddbelyea @elpepe @Jpowe11 They’re expert at weasel words. They never claim to be cooling the air, only that it feels cooler - just like every other fan.
It is nothing other than the ‘Fan’ mode that I’ve seen on every space heater that I’ve owned.
[I wouldn’t dream of using them as room heaters. One went in a very cramped bathroom, about three feet from the throne. Did fine there. The only other use I had for them was under my desk, especially effective in the corner of my office.]
This product has a name that sounds like it was picked by a committee.
@OnionSoup Almost as good as Heaty McHeatface
@heartny @OnionSoup Yeah and after they named this they were all fired! Except for McHeatface, who now runs the company.
“The EdenPURE 360 Super Climater can change an 86 degree temperature completely around the unit to a 71.3 degree True Feel Temperature in 15 seconds. You can then turn up your home thermostat to 86 degrees which greatly reduces the operation time of your air conditioner. But, you will be cool and comfortable in the room with your EdenPURE 360 Super Climater.”
Talk about back to the future! This device seemingly defies the laws of physics. This could be the answer to climate change.
Or, it just blows air on your skin to evaporate sweat and absorb heat as the liquid changes to gas.
@accelerator
That is some Grade A marketing BS, right there.
@accelerator “up (down?) to” that level in 15 seconds
Margin of error: 110%
Would be great for an RV, but the weight kills the deal.
The EdenPURE 360 Super Climater operates on 120 volts, 60 Hz and uses 12 amps. It has a fan setting that draws 3.8W on low and 84.7W on high, while the heat settings draw 1000W on low and 1500W on high.
Flanders and Swann have something to say about this “cooling” function:
Oh, you can’t pass heat from the cooler to the hotter
You can try it if you like but you’ll only look a fool-er
'Cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
And that’s a physical law…
someone tell me if I’m buying this or not.
/8ball is @dan40oly buying this?
Yes
@dan40oly
No- Definitely Not
Some mehtizens probably are housecats
These conversations keep me occupied for hours! Thank you, everyone…fascinating stuff…end result, no purchase from me!
You guys should all just follow me around and comment on every purchase I make!
No Georgia Red. . . for that alone, meh.
I COLLECT space heaters and yet somehow this is the sale that broke my clicky face streak yet again…