@medz My friend has a different name for the Leaf. It is something that the ladyfolk do sometimes, but it still rhymes with “Leaf”. I like his version.
@accelerator I don’t think that’s entirely fair to the new car. Sure, it’s no proper successor to the original Dart, but it’s not a bad little car at all. I ride in my friend’s all the time, and it is a seemingly well-built little car, and he says it’s great fun to drive.
I have what I think is a legitimate question about this sort of issue, but both times/places I’ve tried asking it I got flooded with visceral responses.
@Pantheist I took an anatomy class last quarter and I got to poke around at viscera of sharks, rabbits, chickens, cats, and minks. There’s not really a lot of pointy viscera, you’re right. Though shark livers would probably qualify as pretty pointy.
I let my socks show my personality but not those socks - although lick 'n suck made me pause. Socks for men or women both fit me but they have to be the right kind.
It is complicated. I’m fairly apathetic about how other people gender me, but that’s only because I was able to access healthcare that let me transition and feel comfortable in my body. Strangers tend to assume that I’m either a very femme gay man or a butch woman, depending on the length of my hair and what I’m wearing. I just shrug and go with it because tbh I don’t want to draw attention to myself.
@brhfl Okay, this is meh, after all. I think most of us are understanding and, I hope, generally kind people. SJWs that get outraged over the smallest thing have made this front for equality a literal joke, and I think most of us are just having a bit of fun with how ridiculous it can all get and how it all falls on the shoulders of the majority to literally change everything about the way we see others in order to suit the few. Further, if we fail or don’t do it right, we’re awful and should be roasted.
That being said, I think a vast majority of people (myself included) are open to discussion and correction if we use the wrong pronouns, and respect other people’s right to chose their lifestyle without complaint. Just as we would like to have for ourselves. So, where you see dismal and draining, I see people just poking fun at an oversensitive culture that only serves to hurt progress, not foster it. And I see that coming from people who would probably be on board for having real discussions and being willing to accept correction and not pass judgment.
@brhfl I’m sorry, the luxury of preferring progressive discussion over regressive attacks and name calling? Maybe I came across wrong, but my point was that if we cut out the hypersensitivity that SJWs bring to the table and the condemnation hat accompanies it, we can all have a better chance at leveling with one another and moving forward on a real issue.
I’m literally telling you I feel bad that SJWs have done for the trans movement what radical feminists have done for third wave feminism, and that you’re needs aren’t getting the traction they deserve as a result.
I don’t see why I’m under fire from you here. I poke fun at myself frequently and I’m a good sport about a lot of things. If you took a view more like anemones and were a little more emotionally level about it all, maybe you won’t attack people that see literally what’s happening to the trans rights movement and instead discuss what can be done with them.
At the same time, you need a thicker skin, insert preferred pronoun here
@MagnaVis It is interesting that you use SJW as an insult. SJW means Social Justice Warrior, which implies that the SJW is motivated to help people achieve social justice. In this context, that means giving people the freedom to be who they are in terms of gender identity. Using SJW in a negative manner implies that you think people do not deserve that freedom. I’m sure that you didn’t mean it like that, after all, we are all “generally kind people”. I just wanted you to know so you don’t misuse that term.
I can agree that there is some over-sensitivity on this subject - from both sides. I mentioned in a different comment that you can never make enough categories to meet everyone’s diversity, so there has to be some compromise. However, I have to completely disagree that being sensitive “only serves to hurt progress”. You only get progress by moving forward, and that’s not found by being quiet. Being quiet means accepting the status quo, which isn’t what started the Revolutionary War, or gave women the right to vote, or ended slavery. People had to stand up and speak. Those people were SJWs, and my hat’s off to them. If they could stand up for what was right, then the least I can do is stand up in an anonymous forum and say something that will change nothing.
@MagnaVis I truly don’t have the energy for this, but it’s worth pointing out that I wasn’t calling anyone names, nor attacking anyone. Yes, I found many comments in this thread to be quite taxing, but I didn’t call anyone out, I wasn’t trying to silence anyone… You seem to have made a lot of assumptions about me and how ‘emotionally level’ I am. I certainly do think that it’s a luxury to have the privilege that allows you to brush off and laugh about things that are actively harmful to marginalized groups. Perhaps it will all be a bit funnier when trans youth feel safe enough in this world that they stop killing themselves, and when trans folks stop being beaten & murdered for simply existing.
@jmassey I appreciate your commentary but have to disagree on your definition of SJW. DrunkCat hit that one on the head. This is, by and large, the accepted difference between the two groups.
@brhfl I didn’t say you were calling names, and sorry if that was unclear. I was talking about SJWs and their approach to these issues.
You still seem to be misunderstanding me. I’m not laughing off things that marginalize non-binary folks. I’m, along with several others, laughing at the ridiculous over-sensitivity and the outright terrible picture painted by SJWs in their quest to establish fairness. The bathroom argument is ridiculous. There’s literally no statistical data that I’ve ever found that says if there were unisex bathrooms that more women would be at risk of sexual assault. I can think of no good reason why two men or women, or whatever, can’t get married. I do, however, understand that the state supporting 50+ genders on ID cards and such isn’t going to serve anyone. This is discussed elsewhere in this forum as “making the boxes/holes large enough to accommodate wider ranges of shapes.” I’m on board, I really don’t care how anyone lives their life as long as I have the right to live mine how I see fit as well.
However, you said, “Congrats on having that fucking luxury.” It’s only in this last post that you actually describe what “luxury” you think I have. You think cis men aren’t under fire? You think life is a cakewalk for me because I don’t struggle against gender identity laws and biases? For someone who asks me not to assume your emotional state, you seem to sure know a lot about my life. And you know what, you’re right about my assumption. I made a snap judgment based on two posts of yours. Maybe today isn’t a great day for you, but I don’t see cursing at someone who’s literally saying, “we can have fun at how out of hand this has all become while still acknowledging there are real issues underneath it that need to be addressed” as a very level approach.
I support discussion about real issues like trans suicide rates and marriage laws. I make fun of non-sense and SJWs. I believe that’s a healthy approach to life that doesn’t take it too seriously as to not get out alive. (#QuotesToLiveBy)
@MagnaVis it’s incredibly exhausting to have to constantly defend our existence as more than just a punchline. I went out of my way to not even use the word ‘nonbinary’ in an attempt to prevent exactly this kind of thread, and yet here we are.
Are there kids who have unrealistic expectations of how quickly hegemonic gender norms will change? Yes. Are there assholes out there using social justice as an excuse to be jerks? Absolutely. But the problem is that the anti-SJW fixation on those people (a tiny if very loud minority) leads to a lot of behavior that, intentionally or otherwise, continues to demonize trans people as a whole.
Saying that being cisgender gives you the luxury to treat these conversations as just a joke isn’t making any assumptions beyond that. It’s just saying that on this one thing - this very specific thing - your perspective gives you a safe distance from the subject, which not all of us can afford.
And then I have to do things like try to convince strangers that making fun of trans people is not harmless, instead of getting ready for work, which I am now late for goodbye
@MagnaVis@DrunkCat I find that the SJW page on Wikipedia was a little lacking, but found other sources that back up and enhance the origins of SJW. It appears, that while “social justice” is 200ish years old, “social justice warrior” is a little less than 5 decades old. However, 6 years ago, extreme right twitter users co-opted the term and made it an insult. As I’ve been an SJW longer than it’s been considered bad, I really take offense to it being used incorrectly. Now, I’ll know that you aren’t using it as derogatory towards me personally, and my skin is plenty thick, so don’t worry about me. But being informed is an important thing. I would suggest you avoid using such terminology lest you be associated with the negative element. But, as I’m an SJW, if anyone calls you an extremist or bigot, don’t worry: I’ll stand up for you until I see proof of that.
In support of @brhfl, who definitely started off vague and prompted a certain level of retribution, there’s a problem with your responses, and there’s no real answer and there’s no real blame with it either. As with most things, there isn’t a binary argument for how to handle gender identity issues. The spectrum starts with extremist “no rights in fact just kill 'em” and ends with the extremist “support all 972 permutations of gender identity”. Neither are right, and the vast majority of us are in the middle. Here’s where things get fuzzy. If you start from that first extreme and work your way over, the vast majority of the bigots are in the camp that says “as long as it doesn’t affect me, I’m okay with it”. This is the worst version of bigotry, because it promotes no growth. But you see the problem, don’t you? The vast majority of bigots are in this camp, but also vast majority of people who aren’t (and are not directly affected by this change). That means… you. I honestly don’t know if you are one of the bigots or one of the neutrals, and no one else does either. I assume you aren’t, but who can tell, right? So our friend @brhfl sees one more bigot, and can you really blame a person?
It sucks and it isn’t fair. I try to see the best in people, but I’ve certainly seen some horrible things.
Keep in mind, the same thing happens on the other side of the spectrum. And because there is a need for progress, for change, for a difference, there’s also an impetus to push the boundaries. There’s me, the SJW, pushing the boundaries. And here’s the thing. You don’t really know anything about me. I could be the SJW as the insult, or SJW I claim to be. But either way, I have to push for MORE than enough “gender identity” concessions. Why? Because this will always be a compromise. If I only ask for what I want, I will receive far less. I have to ask for more in order to get what’s really reasonable, but in doing so, I’m going to be pushing for things that border or cross over into ridiculousness. Again, no real answer, no real blame. It just sucks.
@jmassey According to Google trends SJW is a flat line until 2013 so I’m not sure where you sourced that it’s at least “5 decades old”. The addition of ‘warrior’ is quite literally there to apply the notion of extremism. To be a SJW without extreme is to be Christian without god. While you’re free to attempt to “redefine” it, do note that it’s a losing battle as those who still cling to the original definition of literally will tell you.
Keep in mind, being an SJW typically means fighting losing battles
I do sense a trend, though. I write what appears to me to be a thoughtful and level response, and then you avoid or redirect. Perhaps we are hitting too close to home? Who can say for sure? All I know is it’s time for me to focus on other matters for the rest of the day.
@DrunkCat The issue with that graphic is when people decide anyone they don’t want to listen to is an SJW. Not saying that’s what you’re doing, but in certain other realms of the internet, “SJW” has become a catch-all for anyone with left-of-center politics that gets tossed out any time the status quo is challenged, and as a result carries so much baggage for both sides that it’s no longer a useful term in any kind of civilized discussion.Trying to delineate between social activists and “SJWs” is unhelpful when that line seems to shift depending on the mood of the person drawing it, and saying “well, my definition IS different” doesn’t go very far.
@jmassey Not sure where or even what I have avoided or redirected. Please feel free to point that out.
At any rate: Five decades is fifty years which would imply an origin point of around 1970 which the singular, questionably researched, article cited here only goes as far back as 1991. Wikipedia articles are only as strong as their sources and that article is a train wreck.
The most interesting part of this is how English is dictated by majority and common usage. It makes this entire point relatively moot outside of a “fun fact”. I explained to you its most commonly accepted definition vis a vis popular use via an oft-used tool for exactly that type of verification and your response is to double down on your personal definition. I recommend this comic by The Oatmeal.
@harveydanger This isn’t really unique to the term SJW, as “fascist” is also used in the same way. This is why I’ve simply aimed to clarify the core definition of the word. Folks will use whatever they fancy to shut down an argument or deflect but that’s not my concern. You want to talk about fascism I will talk about the requirement of authoritarianism with great emphasis on national identity. This isn’t simply me “well, my definition IS different” as @jmassey is doing, but clarifying the actual term in question. Whether the term is being used incorrectly positively or negatively.
@MagnaVis mmmaybe if you want to understand the lives other people lead, don’t lead off with the label SJW? Because it’s a term that trolls and women hating meatbags have used, a lot, against anyone who isn’t white and male and hetero and has any opinion at all about how things might be made better.
And that includes being used against the people you’d like to understand.
it’s incredibly exhausting to have to constantly defend our existence as more than just a punchline.
I told some jokes in this thread, which, I had hoped, were clearly pointed at me. Perhaps they came across that way, perhaps they didn’t. If not, then I apologize.
I didn’t tell jokes because I think of gender issues as involving nothing but punchline fodder (forget acknowledging that some persons have to go through extra misery and trouble and genuine difficulties and sometimes genuine horrors in their lives). And these are difficulties that I will never experience as you do, and therefore cannot fully appreciate.
I tell jokes because sometimes jokes just help me - and many others - just get through the damned day. I mostly tell them about me. Sometimes I tell them about stuff we all pretty much have to deal with. They’re a form of tiny emotional sustenance. I have a moment of stepping back from the trouble and toils, I have a joke, and then I go on.
But none of my attempts at humor are intended to demoralize anyone who faces a daily struggle, and none of them are intended to be insensitive. So if mine were, I owe you both amends.
I will never know exactly what either of you face each day. But many of us - myself or people I know - have faced situations in our lives (difficulties fitting into social expectations or roles, or serious emotional or life disorders, or similar) which endured, along with a lot of pain or rejection and apparent failure and endless frustration or pointless hostility, for years or decades. So I hope we aren’t completely clueless. I can well understand how someone’s daily interface with the social world can be so taxing that even the simplest days are exhausting.
I hope you perceive from people here some sense of being valued.
And someday, perhaps, you will feel valued out in the big bad world also. I hope so.
I find that how “social justice warrior” or SJW is interpreted depends deeply on the POV of who is saying it, and the POV of those about whom the term is used.
from wikipedia link:
Katherine Martin says that the term switched from primarily positive to overwhelmingly negative around 2011, when it was first used as an insult on Twitter.[1] The same year an Urban Dictionary entry for the term also appeared.[1] The term’s negative use became mainstream due to the Gamergate controversy,[10] emerging as the favoured term of Gamergate proponents to describe their ideological opponents.[1] In Internet and video game culture the phrase is broadly associated with the Gamergate controversy and wider culture war fallout, including the 2015 Sad Puppies campaign that affected the Hugo Awards.[2][5][11][12][13] Usage of the term as a pejorative was popularized on websites Reddit and 4chan.[14]
Use of the term has been described as attempting to degrade the motivations of the person accused of being an SJW, implying that their motives are “for personal validation rather than out of any deep-seated conviction.”[4]
In my own experience, the term is recently, as used when labeling a person or a group, intended as an insult. Sometimes other labels are thrown at the back and forth. I find this all unhelpful. I don’t commonly insult people by pejorative labels, or I certainly hope I’m not doing that.
Re: “social justice warrior” vs “social justice activist”: I would prefer to deal with the quality level of the specific arguments offered, rather than labels.
Many of our ideas about {what social justice, human decency, manners, acceptance, welcome, and empathy should be} are in flux, and I am glad of that. During periods of social change about roles and expectations, there is often a lot of ugliness and knee-jerk judgment. I hope most people I know actively avoid that and actively try for the opposite.
@f00l As I said, both the Wikipedia article and the WP article are a mess. Loads of projection and reaching that I can only help be reminded of this: At least it works as a reminder to why citing Wikipedia is embarrassing.
At any rate, dealing with quality of an argument is what labels are for. After all there’s a whole website dedicated to labeling fallacies. This one being pertinent in this insistence. Just like SJW, those labels can too be misused by anyone; however this does not make them irrelevant. Anything can be a pejorative.
@f00l thanks for being open to discussion and listening to folks! It’s always heartening to see people engaging with this whole subject with, well, any degree of good faith. Also I had forgotten about the Gamergate connection but it explains so much.
@everyone I hate being a killjoy - humor is what keeps me going too, and it’s always a bummer to be the one going “hey uh, that’s not funny when it actually happens to you.” It’s just that if you’re trans, a lot of the jibes in these comments are the equivalent of ‘get me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen’ jokes. They’re tired. We’ve heard them a hundred times, and maybe a couple of people telling them weren’t actively hostile towards our existence, but a hell of a lot of them were. And it’s not safe - I mean that literally - to assume everyone’s ~just kidding~. Even if you are, I guarantee you there’s a transmisogynist out there who’s nodding along and assuming you agree with their bigotry.
I promise you that there’s plenty of humor left in the world if you take a break from ragging on trans people. You might be laughing with us, but you’re repeating the same shit that gets said by people who are definitely laughing at us.
Not really sure why (or even if) it matters. As long as I am not trying to bed you one way or the other, your sex (or personal concept of your sex) is really immaterial. I have lots of shared experiences/interests with both my female and male friends, be they straight, gay, bi, trans or other. I am perfectly comfortable with who you are as long as it’s OK to be who I am.
As for the whole gender-self-identity bathroom issue, I like the concept of “bathroom”. This is especially practical in smaller establishments, and alleviates having to wait while the bathroom with the “female” identifier line gets their turn and the “male” bathroom stays unused…one identifier based on the function (ie “bathroom”, “restroom”, “crapper”, “loo”, “W/C”, or whatever) on both facilities allows a more regulated and efficient flow of patrons. Or perhaps there should be three… “men’s”, “women’s”, and “restroom” in bigger venues. The idea of using a unisex bathroom doesn’t faze me in the least. It’s not like there aren’t stalls around the toilets in multi-seat restrooms, or that I don’t know why you are going into the bathroom…
@chienfou I ran a convention for a tiny video game genre that traditionally notes the player as an @ sign. I swapped the bathroom signs to use @ where the bodies would be, and wrote underneath “Restroom: all adventurers welcome”. Worked pretty well. Later on I found a wooden @ at Target, which I’m planning to hang on my bathroom door when I finally live in a place of my own.
@chienfou
Because of all the gaps in the stalls, I’m not even comfortable with unisex bathrooms. Until each stall is basically its own room, I don’t see very many people getting excited about this sort of change.
@DVDBZN In Europe and Asia unisex bathrooms have been around for years. The main difference is the gaps you mentioned. Europeans are shocked and appalled by them. Their stalls are basically little rooms within the restroom. If you can’t see inside through the gaps who cares who’s outside?
Until the USA starts using this style stall I for one DO NOT want my daughters or granddaughters sharing restrooms with males, no matter what gender they identify with.
@JanaS What is to stop a creepy female from peeping on them? What is to stop a creepy male from dressing like a women and sneaking in to be creepy? Nothing. Nothing is in place to stop it. Unisex restrooms are not any more welcoming to creepers than male/female restrooms. The only deterrence is the fear of being caught. If you get caught creeping in an unisex bathroom, you will be punished just as severely as a female-only bathroom.
Cisgender male here. But my partner identifies as non-binary, and it does matter.
Think about it this way: You remember as a kid those toys where you had to put the shapes in the right shaped holes? Say you got one of those with two holes: a circle, and a square. But someone hands you a triangle… what the heck slot do you put that one in?
As humans, we’re really good as trying to systematize and create boxes for things. It’s how our brains work. But reality is more complicated than the models we create to organize it, and the more we learn about gender, the more complicated it ends up being. Some people’s assigned boxes are wrong—either they map to the “opposite” box, or they don’t map to an “existing” box at all.
You have two solutions in this case: Either add boxes, or force people into the wrong boxes. One of these is a much better solution than the other. (Hint: It’s the first one.)
@sanspoint If someone hands you a triangle when you’re playing the circle and square game I think it means whoever handed you the triangle is trying to f’ with your head! Some learn earlier than others that you have to take a stand when this happens. In the case of euphemistically associating the square peg in the round hole analogy to gender considerations; the basic premise of this “game” is to analyze intelligence and perception of physical reality. This is the point in the game when you refuse the triangle because you know it’s not part of the game. Or, maybe better yet, like the “War Games” conclusion; the only winning move is not to play.
It might be easier to associate the sprinkles on a turd analogy to gender analysis. It may look like a chocolate sundae with sprinkles but in reality it’s just a turd with sprinkles on it. Either way, it still means someone is f’n with you. The big question is, who is this asshole?
The bottom line is: mutual respect for every person means no asshole is going to hand you a triangle. Or, if they do, the square and round hole will be large enough for it to fit through.
I personally don’t judge and if someone needs my support I’m going to be there for them. Just please leave the government out of it.
@sanspoint Maybe you can explain this whole gender thing to me because I really don’t understand (and am not trying to be a jerk). Nature is binary (with the occasional exception)- X and Y chromosomes and genital development. The rest seems like societal bullshit to me. I’m good with guys having sex with other guys and wearing dresses and high heels and liking shopping more than football- whatever floats your boat. I have a major issue with the way Americans look at gender.
What I don’t get is the need to call yourself something that biology doesn’t support and use surgery to modify things. Is there really some real inborn drive to have a body other than what you were born with or is it trying to conform to what society thinks you should have?
@accelerator When you’re handed the triangle, maybe the answer isn’t to refuse it, but that the “game” is missing some required pieces. That’s the whole point. The triangle exists, you can’t pretend it’s not there. The triangle has the same rights as the other shapes to be part of the game, so the game adapts to include a triangle-shaped hole.
/giphy Open your mind
@sammydog01 , I think I can give a reasonable answer. Have you ever had a haircut? Did it ever have any form to it at all? Nature says “your hair grows, and it breaks off when it gets too long”. If you cut it, you are conforming to comfort/safety/society, in some distribution. If it has any shape or form to it (not just shaving it off), then the safety percentage is gonna be really low. So now it’s about looking how want, and feeling how you want. It’s the same with gender, in a way. Biology is binary when discussing DNA genetic gender (excluding xxy), but gender identity is so much more than that. Hormones are different for everyone, so your male genitalia might be thick or thin, long or short, your breasts might be pert or pendulous, and so on. What about personality?
Some people are “manly” men, and some are effeminate. This creates a spectrum of gender identity, which is different than genetic gender. In this spectrum, some choose to change their bodies, most don’t. However, any guy who worked out in a gym to become the buff specimen that goes with the concept of masculinity or the woman who gets a boob job to be more feminine - those people are changing their bodies to conform to societal views as well, it just isn’t contrary to their genetic genders based on your perception of societal norms.
@accelerator To your point, you aren’t completely off base on some things. The square/circle/triangle game analogy isn’t bad, but it doesn’t work perfectly. People aren’t square/circle/triangle. I’m at least a hectogon. So, you can’t make a hole to fit everyone’s peg (there’s an opening - oh no, I can’t stop!). You are right, you have to make the holes big enough to take those odd shapes. And, there has to be a reasonable amount of compromise on the size and shape of everyone’s pegs (why won’t it stop?!), because it’s just not feasible to specially accommodate everyone’s specific peg (no! just stop!). Unfortunately, while I’d like to agree it’s not government’s place to deal with this, I can’t. My friend is hetero female, but very masculine. She went into a female bathroom, and was confronted by a “concerned citizen”, a man who felt she had entered the wrong bathroom. Fortunately, this particular time, everything was defused, but this is not an isolated incident. I’m all for big brother staying out of people’s lives, and I’m all for sticking up for anyone who needs help, but what about when I’m not there? Sometimes, big brother needs to set up guidelines, rules, and laws to offer everyone protection all the time. I worked for a company that fired an extremely competent man who wore makeup and a dress to work. How can you support that man? The easiest answer is to support government intervention - and I honestly wish that wasn’t the case. But I can’t support and stand up for everyone who needs help.
@jmassey Gender is just a gap word in the language to project the notion of a binary using the biological construct of sex. It’s not really meant to apply to humans or really anything with a sex because it becomes redundant (and a tad dehumanizing). It’s designed to be applied to inanimate sexless objects like boats and countries, e.g. “For the motherland”, or “The enterprise always finds her way home” are considered to be ‘gendered’ for the function of English, much like the end of a plug is said to be “gendered” not “sexed”. It’s a quirk of English much like Japanese have distinct words of existence dependent on being animate or not.
What you’re explaining has absolutely nothing to do with gender but more so to do with aesthetics. Tom boy is not a “gender”, nor is being goth, preppy, nerdy or any other plethora of cultural aesthetics that have waxed and waned over the past millennia. I mean, are the men who introduced heel footwear to be retroactively labeled as some sort of unique gender identifier?
@DrunkCat So… I think you agree with me? Just not my usage of the word “gender”? Your aesthetics is exactly what makes up the spectrum of “gender identity”, a phrase which google graces me with “the internal perception of one’s gender, and how they label themselves, based on how much they align or don’t align with what they understand their options of gender to be…Often confused with biological sex, or sex assigned at birth”. When I previously referred to “genetic gender”, you are completely correct that “sex” was the correct word.
I really like your point of men introducing heels as not having a gender identity that necessarily includes “feminine”. This speaks to the societal norms of the times.
@jmassey Aesthetics aren’t biologically sexed so they could be referred to as gendered except that they aren’t binary so the term is still misapplied. It could be more properly discussed as styles, cliques, scene, personality, etc.
@DrunkCat I’m afraid one of us isn’t smart enough for this conversation, and I’m afraid it might be me. Of course, “aesthetics” are not biological sexed, but they are part of “gender identity”. If the aesthetic of wearing high heels and hose are perceived as feminine under current 2010’s American culture, then that aesthetic does currently affect an attribute of a person’s “gender identity”. Neither hose nor heels have always been feminine, but today, they are. So I’m still not sure what you are trying to teach me.
@sammydog01 Well, for one, one of the aspects of how gender dysphoria manifests is in reaction to the body and its development. A metaphor I’ve used in the past is, well, if you’ve ever read The Metamorphosis, there’s that the part in the beginning where Gregor Samsa is awake in bed, aware something is wrong with his body, but unsure of what. Try to imagine living with that every day.
There’s a number of theories about why this happens to people, and nothing’s been confirmed yet.* What we do know is that allowing someone to undergo hormone replacement therapy and transition to living as a different gender goes a huge way to helping someone with gender dysphoria feel at home in their body. And this goes whether or not they undergo sexual reassignment surgery (which, as you can probably imagine, is a huge hassle to put it mildly.)
*Please note that I am not a biologist, gender theorist, or anything like that, but the theory I find most appealing is based on research into the complexities of biological gender. There’s a likelihood that your body contains a combination of XX and XY cells, not just all XX or XY. I wonder if transgender and agender people have a mix that leans more towards the “opposite” gender, causing the brain to expect a set of hormones and body development that the rest of the body won’t provide. Which would explain the utility of HRT.
@jmassey Thanks for the response. So you are saying that it’s more societal pressure to conform to expected behaviour? Because that’s pretty sad if it’s true. The school my kids go to separates the genders in middle school. My quiet, action movie loving daughter spent four years listening to girls sing “Frozen” and the latest boy band songs every day. It just about drove her nuts. Why can’t they just let kids be themselves?
@sanspoint Fascinating article- thanks. I have one concern- The medical community used HRT as a cure for menopause symptoms (they are trying to do the same thing with testosterone now). Turns out it caused cancer. I hope that the doctors working with hormone therapy have some idea what they are doing and aren’t using trans people as guinea pigs.
@sammydog01 Well, it’s a different kind of HRT used for transgender folks, and usually applied earlier in life. Still, a risk is a risk, but cancer is probably the least of risks a transgender person faces with transitioning.
How about "I don’t care about anyone’s parts as long as they don’t wave them in my face without an invitation?"
What I DO care about is no matter what parts you have, please for the love of everything good and pure in the world, wipe off the god damned toilet seat when you take a piss in a public bathroom.
I don’t care if you have some irrational fear of catching zika or worms from a toilet seat so you have the compulsion to hover. What I DO care about is your urine covering the seat and the floor because you are an inconsiderate ass of a human being.
@LaVikinga Ugh. Thank you! I have a co-worker that hovers and never wipes her piss off the seat. We have those toilet protectors. Put one of those and pee all over it if you still refuse to sit. At least that way when you flush, the seat is dry.
I’m tempted to put a sticky note in the specific stall she uses to urge people to clean up after peeing everywhere.
I don’t track people’s bathroom habits… But when you get stuck in the stall after that person several times and it’s always pee covered, it’s easy to realize who the culprit is.
@Pantheist I firmer believe the sprinklers are narcissists who don’t think they should be required to clean their mess because “they have people who get paid to clean these toilets.” They are the entitled bitches who sport one of those “let me speak to your manager” attitudes (and sometimes the haircut, too).
I’m not sure why some people get so hung-up on bathrooms.
Safety/Security - Yes, there are creepers out there, but there has never been anything to stop them from lurking in the bathroom. This is why I will do a sweep of the women’s restroom when we are in sketchy places before sending my wife or daughter in. At the very least, I’ll stay within screaming distance. There could be a crazy person of the same sex/gender in there. Signs and rules will not stop creepers from creeping. We have to look out for each other and report suspicious behavior.
Privacy/Awkwardness/Embarrassment - Public restrooms are awkward; there is no getting around that. Relieving yourself in a public space is a pretty compromising position to be in. I suppose some people will feel less embarrassed if they’re stinking up a room filled with members of the same sex, but I don’t see why. A stranger is a stranger. We’re all humans and we have no control over our bodily functions. I don’t like another dude witnessing my wiping habits any more than I would like a woman to see such things. But, you know, shit happens. It’s a fact.
It’s a cultural thing just like #freethenipple. It makes no sense when you think about it. Why is seeing a female’s boob a big deal? Why is a person with a penis using the same bathroom as a person without one such a big deal? It isn’t. It’s all about social norms which evolve over time.
Bathroom usage is not a key argument in this discussion, but it seems to be a point of fixation for a large number of people.
@cranky1950 i hear this all the time and it is so blatantly untrue it horrifies me. i don’t know where you all live to experience this, but i have a feeling its more to do with “if i womens room is slightly gross, it’s grosser than a mens room being horrifyingly disgusting” sort of feeling than anything.
@cranky1950 Oh, dear gawd, yes!!! My husband was shocked to realize the Women’s “Heads” and berthing spaces were some of the most disgusting spaces aboard the carriers he cruised on he ever had to inspect. It really altered his “women fart pixie dust and poop rainbow Twinkies” mindset.
5 Years experience as a housekeeping supervisor in a major dept store while going to school.
Women shop more - far more - than men, in places like dept stores. And if you did this work while a student, then I presume that was in an era during which the ratio of the time women spent shopping vs the amount of time men did was even more pronounced. I presume the womens restroom got way more use than the mens.
I, too, have done that work, though never in a retail store. In office buildings both restrooms stayed quite clean. In warehouse or other non-office settings, the men’s restrooms were never as clean as the women’s.
@cranky1950 I don’t see why you have to say that most women are slobs from your experience at ONE department store. I work retail and I’ve helped clean the restrooms and I could make a similar conclusion that the men are more disgusting. Sure, women tinkle on the seat, but the men’s restroom is where men would pee all over the floor around the urinals, and they would splatter shit on the walls. There was many times that the managers would have to get involved cleaning the men’s because someone dribbled shit all over the floor trying to make it to the toilet, or they’d have a fountain of shit that got all over the toilet seat, behind the seat, and up the wall. There was a few times that they broke out the pressure washer. That never happened in the women’s.
Humans are disgusting. It’s not a contest about who is grosser.
@cranky1950
In the places I worked, or place where I have had reason to know the size of both rooms, the various womens and mens restrooms were always the same size, as well as being mostly equally very neat.
In a department store, esp from the 1950-1970’s, of course the womens restrooms were larger. The staff and customers were mostly female, and no one was terribly focused on gender equality in restrooms. Also the niceness of a restroom for women factors into whether women liked a particular store vs another one.
During childhood, I saw “powder rooms” containing couches or easy chairs, or separate “powder room” mirror areas for tweaking appearance, in department stores Mom explained that some women expected those items to be there, so they were.
The gender variations in levels of restroom neatness only varied much in areas that were really “blue collar”. Esp the areas for big rig activity. In those areas the womens restrooms were usually far neater. (The mens restrooms near the dock areas got heavier use in the place I worked for a while.)
Re being slobs: lots of people are slobs.
How about them “weird wimmen” that may be willing to tolerate you from time to time? Are they slobs? Do you like them, in part, because they are slobs? Do they like you, in part, because you are a slob?
Are you cranky because you are a slob?
Are you cranky because other people are slobs?
@meh Hmmmm seemed to have hit a hot button. What should we call this ah! Alternative hygiene. Yes most women are not slobs they adhere to alternative hygiene. There happy?
@DrunkCat There’s a way to make fun of people who wage social media shame campaigns without also making fun of people who don’t identify as male or female.
btw, if we’re talking about bathrooms. i wish everywhere would install fully enclosed stalls. perhaps its a social thing here in the PNW, but womens rooms especially around here and at my job are often full of people waiting…and waiting…and waiting…on very overcrowded bathrooms to become empty so they can take a shit. some people say they’re watching movies or playing games, but everyone does that at their desk here, and i’m quite sure it’s really they just need to shit and think the bathroom will empty out for them. my favorite is when there’s two people already in there doing the poop wait, and a 3rd decides to jump in. i’ve heard the same thing happens in the mens room, especially because there’s fewer stalls. i’m not even unguilty of waiting a minute, because i’m pee shy and sometimes i have a hard time peeing when there is someone next to me waiting in dead silence for me to leave. but man, the phrase “shit or get off the pot” has never been so real since i started working here.
also i like bars/restaurants that have single person bathrooms, because i also can’t stand people standing outside my stall or having a social gathering at the sink. however, when these bathrooms are unisex, why is it that men manage to pee everywhere? still preferable to traditional public bathrooms, though.
@meh I always feel weird when people are brushing their teeth in the bathroom. I just feel like that would be a little unsettling, having a stranger drop off a load while you’re trying to scrub your munchers.
@brhfl i love when they come in and start brushing their teeth and doing makeup while 3 people are trying to shit and now suddenly they all have the awkward fear of being seen if they try to leave now. waiting intensifies.
Play the Star Trek Enterprise ambient engine noise in the background to get ride of the awkward silence.
Configure restrooms in a such a way that you can exit the stalls on a different side than the entrance. This way, people waiting, using the urinals, or just using the sinks won’t see who just left the stall! On the exit side of the stalls, there would be sinks for washing and a separate exit to discreetly slip away. Granted, folks might see you come out of a different door and know you used the stall, but the exit door could merge with the normal door before it hit the hallway. Perhaps have elevator access direct from the stall exit so you could jump off at any floor and walk back to your office and nobody would know where you came from!
Air tight, sound proof stalls with dedicated air supply and exhaust fans.
Computerized system to check the cleanliness of the stall before allowing the user to leave.
No frills, prison-style stainless everything. Sloped floors with drains in the center so they can be hosed down, and in fancier buildings maybe a fixed pressure-washer that automatically turns on after every stall use.
We got ittoo good these days - people get too comfortable while they poop. You’re here to discretely engage in the shameful removal of waste, not look at instagram and play angry birds.
Or maybe just install carpet… that would probably weird people out enough they just wouldn’t use it.
For home use though: bidets, skylights, nice tile floor, silver-plated fixtures and turtle decorations everywhere. And a speaker that loops Darude -Sandstorm
New poll:
When wiping, do you:
a) stay firmly seated reaching between the legs
b) stay firmly seated reaching from behind
c) lean slightly in one direction
d) squat just above the seat
e) stand nearly straight up
f) I’ll take it to my grave!
I’ve been wondering whats going to happen to all the setasides for women owned businesses. In some areas of the country (and at the federal level) being ‘woman owned’ is a significant benefit in getting contracts and work, and being otherwise can lock you out of a lot, no matter how qualified (or sometimes even how much more qualified) your business might be.
So if Big Bearded Jake can identify as a woman or other ‘primarily female oriented gender type’ and use a women’s rest room at Target, why can’t Jake (to avoid using an indeterminate pronoun given the situation and I refuse to use the ‘zhe, zir’ idiocy I see on twitter) shop Jake’s own business around as woman owned, and be seriously offended if someone calls Jake on it. After all who is anyone else to say what gender Jake is except Jake?
@duodec We have that covered: what’s in the gender slot on your ID and/or birth certificate?
As long as transitioning legally (e.g., getting your ID and Birth Certificate updated to change the M to an F, or vice-versa, or to an X if you’re agender/genderqueer) remains difficult, this is going to be a non-issue. Even if it becomes easier—which it should—I think it will still be a non-issue, because it’s still going to be a hell of a step to get that done just to game the system. And the few people stupid enough to try would probably be pretty easily caught.
@duodec because if you’re not a woman it would really suck to live as a woman.
Because ask any woman what their day to day life is like. They catch a lot more shit, like more than you even imagine you can imagine, on a daily basis, at work, on the street, on public transit, etc.
If purely hypothetical Jake actually existed, he’d be trading a fucking cush life for one where just as one of example bigots would be more likely to straight up murder him for looking like a man but being a woman.
People who don’t fit the traditional gender binary have been fighting real existential threats for much of their lives, including physical assaults, discrimination for work and housing, and until recently, exclusion from many queer communities and support organisations. I’ve heard non-binary and trans friends’ personal stories and read many others, and it is often the darkest shit you can imagine. Many people are active in advocacy, not just for themselves, but for their friends who can’t speak because they’re fucking dead.
The bathroom issue is not a hypothetical one for people facing the very real possibility of someone making threats or calling the cops every time they have to use the bathroom at work, school or another public place. Trans and non-binary folks are routinely harrassed in bathrooms, often regardless of which bathroom they choose, because of the myriad reasons someone can use to decide they don’t “belong”. (This has even happened to cis women who weren’t deemed to look convincingly “female”).
Our understanding of sexuality and gender from biological, sociological, and behavioural perspectives has vastly grown in just the past few decades. (Yes, there is some new vocabulary, but it’s descriptive of things that have always existed. No, there aren’t 31 flavours of gender or whatever pokedex you might have seen, gender identity is essentially a continuum with two well-defined loci, and the same also applies to sexual preference. Biological sex, on the other hand, has several discrete components, but is also not a binary). Would it behoove the folks here to read up on gender and sexuality instead of rolling out tired jokes about SJWs or tumblr crap?
@trisk The bathroom thing is insane. Especially in women’s bathrooms which have stalls- the bad stuff they talk about isn’t by trans gender people. But here they are talking about middle and high school locker rooms. And some advocates are saying that having a partition isn’t acceptable. Is this just extremists or is this where we are heading? Again this is a real question, not trying to be a jerk. I’m totally with you on bathrooms.
@sammydog01 The discussions about locker rooms that I’ve read about arose from incidents of students being forced to use designated areas to change, including broom closets, because they were trans.
Partitions have been suggested as a solution for locker rooms (and similarly, required private stalls in bathrooms). They seem to reduce complaints or harassment of trans students. Even if they shouldn’t be necessary to prevent these things from happening, all students should have a right to privacy and partitions provide that without singling anyone out. It seems like a move in the right direction.
I haven’t read about arguments opposing partitions, but for the bathroom and locker room issues in general there’s a lack of factual support for concerns about peeping by trans people. It’s been mostly the old associations with immorality or believing that somehow trans people are just faking it, despite what research actually shows.
@DrunkCat I have lost count of the number of times I’ve watched cis people lose their minds over how ~out there~ and ~completely ridiculous~ nonbinary genders are when what they’re referring to is actually jokes between trans people or trolls. Trans folks are expected to laugh along at every unimaginative copypasted-from-4chan ‘joke’ when the second we take a minute to joke around and be silly and not take ourselves 110% seriously, on our own terms, somebody shows up and uses it as an example of how no one should ever take us seriously ever again.
I’ve been thinking about how best to do a “how could someone be a gender other than their body” intro. Because if you’ve not had the experience yourself, or not been close to someone who has, it’s something you might or might not get.
So let me try. And apologies to trans, nonbinary, and queer folk whose experiences I’ve not captured accurately. I haven’t lived in your shoes, and am more trying to expand on a basic hetero view of the world rather than 100% accurately get the fine points.
That said, let’s go for it.
There are lots of ways the brain and the physical body can disagree on how things are. And when I say disagree I don’t mean intellectually, but at a deep level, one that’s a formed sense of self that exists at a level deeper than choice.
Some examples of the brain and body disagreeing;
a patient having a near death experience where they are floating above and looking down at their body on an operating table.
someone using VR glasses in a game where they’re 7’ tall, when in real life theyre 5’4, and becoming nauseous from seeing things in the “wrong” (too tall) perspective.
a diabetic or war vet who lost a limb but still feels it.
a trans man who is born with breasts and a vagina and a female build, who is treated like a woman by family and friends, but who is male inside, who fundamentally is male but in the wrong body.
a trans woman born with a penis and a male build, who is treated like a man by family and friends, but who is female inside, who fundamentally is female but in the wrong body.
So in some of these cases like phantom limbs you can say “the brain is wrong, there’s no limb there, let’s fix this.” And in the near death floating experience, some people call this a religious or spiritual experience, while others see it more like the VR one, where part of the brain is responsible for imagining where “you” are - normally right where your eyes are rather than say at your belly button or 5’ above your head, can shift it’s perspective so far that you have an “out of body” experience.
In the trans cases, you have people suffering, and you also have society expecting people to have the same sex as their gender, so there’s a nice easy biological test (has/lacks a penis or vagina) to determine whether they are male or female. Society expects this because for many, it’s accurate. And if it’s accurate for you, it may be hard to imagine it’s not accurate for everyone.
For a long time, being trans was seen as a mental illness, i.e. the brain is wrong, so let’s treat the brain. And historically this has not worked. It turns out that the wiring for “I am a man” and “I am a woman” (and nonbinary and fluid roles, but I’m keeping this simple) is something that doesn’t take to being changed by shaming, by intellectual arguments, by chemical treatments, religious conversion therapy, or (in some awful times) electroshock.
In fact it fails so badly that many trans people, treated this way, have committed suicide or led supremely unhappy lives.
Instead, it is far more effective to bring the body and social identity into alignment with the brain. Just as all people are unique, so are trans people. For some changing how they present to the world (clothes, mr vs ms, hair, speech therapy) are enough to keep the brain and body happy. For others hormone therapy so they acquire some of the physical characteristics of their gender (a trans man taking estrogen blockers and testosterone to develop facial hair and muscle, a trans woman taking estrogen to develop breasts and maybe having their facial hair removed) brings things into alignment.
And for some its surgery to have breasts removed or a penis turned into a vagina.
The realization that the body and brain can disagree, and that it is more successful to bring the body around to the brain’s point of view is kinda fundamental here.
I’ve had a few friends and a relative who have a birth certificate that says one thing (the “assigned” in assigned male/female at birth) and a gender that is not that. Some realized early, in adolescence, others realized later, in middle age.
For all of them, it was a great relief to finally have a name and a path that could make them comfortable in their own skin. One friend told me that looking back her brain was distracted about 30% of the time because things weren’t right. Not distracted like “i wish I were a woman” thoughts, built distracted like “there’s something terribly wrong”/anguish with no name for it.
I hope I’ve not offended anyone by oversimplifying this, or speaking about things that I’ve only heard and seen, rather than lived, and I know I’ve not said much about gender fluidity and non-binary people’s experiences. I just wanted to describe, in the best way I know, how a body and mind can be at odds, that in this case it’s safer and more successful to change one’s social and physical presentation than to “convince” or treat the mind to change, and to say that the people who are trans, didn’t come to that realization lightly. You risk a lot to live as a trans man or woman, but the benefit is being at peace with your body.
@zippyus About the risk aspect: until the late 19th- early 20th century, birth gender defined what work you could perform. Only wealthy people had the option to flout societal norms; working people did man’s work or woman’s work, and few jobs were open to all. Skilled trades were guarded by guilds, unions, apprenticeships, and I can’t think of any woman who even tried. Widows inheriting a husband’s business could keep it going, but the physical labor was not possible for them. Census occupations show the delineation clearly: https://books.google.com/books?https://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/00779830ch1.pdf
Edgy poll is edgy. Let’s just say I don’t drive a Nissan Leaf and leave it at that.
@medz
/giphy huh??
@medz My friend has a different name for the Leaf. It is something that the ladyfolk do sometimes, but it still rhymes with “Leaf”. I like his version.
@Mehsturbator
I guess malefolk drive the Dodge Dart.
@medz
@Mehsturbator I think they’re cool little cars. I just don’t drive one.
@f00l My first car was a 68’ Dodge Dart. This is no Dodge Dart! Man it sucks to see them reuse the name on a POS disposacar.
@f00l Except for the ones that drive a SeekDart who quite frankly I don’t understand at all.
@accelerator I don’t think that’s entirely fair to the new car. Sure, it’s no proper successor to the original Dart, but it’s not a bad little car at all. I ride in my friend’s all the time, and it is a seemingly well-built little car, and he says it’s great fun to drive.
I’m a lesbian trapped in this man’s body.
@cengland0 so’s my best friend! She realized she was a trans woman and has been so much happier since she was able to live as a woman.
Or were you making a hack joke? It’s so hard to tell.
@zippyus I’m a guy that likes women. Get it?
@cengland0
I can actually see a fight breaking out in this thread.
@ConAndLibrarian
/giphy fight fight fight
Yes.
@Mehsturbator Many people do.
A gender question with only 4 choices?
/giphy offended
@awk The last “It’s complicated – I’ll explain in the comments” option covers all the rest.
@cengland0 But… what if it’s not complicated?
@awk
/image “the simple life”
@f00l That woman needs to fix her overalls. One of the straps is still connected!
@awk Not the only strap that could do with going away.
@awk IIRC that’s Nicole Richie, Lionel Richie’s daughter.
@jqubed All night long, all night
@awk Did you just assume “her” gender? I’m highly offended on “her” behalf.
/giphy blocked
The header for this poll asks about man parts or lady parts. Is that a trap?
@OldCatLady so… many… jokes… must… resist…
@OldCatLady
Something or other is surely a trap.
/giphy "it’s a trap"
I have what I think is a legitimate question about this sort of issue, but both times/places I’ve tried asking it I got flooded with visceral responses.
@Pantheist
So you identify as a “flooded”? Or as a “viscera”?
@f00l oooh, I do like the sound of identifying as a viscera. I’m fast enough with pointy things that I think I could make it work too.
@f00l I’m certainty not enough of a surplus on normal levels in general to be a flood.
@Pantheist I think the idea is to NOT be fast if you’ve got a pointy thing.
@Pantheist you’ve got some guts.
@Mehsturbator not pointy viscera
/giphy get your mind out of the gutter
@Pantheist I took an anatomy class last quarter and I got to poke around at viscera of sharks, rabbits, chickens, cats, and minks. There’s not really a lot of pointy viscera, you’re right. Though shark livers would probably qualify as pretty pointy.
@Mehsturbator lucky you.
@Mehsturbator cool. What’s your goal?
I’m an idiot so I identify as I forget.
That’s why it’s complicated.
@f00l You’re not an idiot - you helped me with the apple/Samsung thing and I thank you for that. But, stay complicated it’s better that way.
@WTFsunshine
You contest my self-identification? Now it’s really really complicated.
/giphy confused
@f00l
…
Dooh! Me so sorry 
@WTFsunshine
no worries
I let my socks show my personality but not those socks - although lick 'n suck made me pause. Socks for men or women both fit me but they have to be the right kind.
Can we get Pat to answer this poll?
@jqubed You stole my go to. I blame myself.
It is complicated. I’m fairly apathetic about how other people gender me, but that’s only because I was able to access healthcare that let me transition and feel comfortable in my body. Strangers tend to assume that I’m either a very femme gay man or a butch woman, depending on the length of my hair and what I’m wearing. I just shrug and go with it because tbh I don’t want to draw attention to myself.
@anemones This thread has been as dismal and draining as I expected; appreciate this beacon of light from a kindred spirit.
@brhfl Okay, this is meh, after all. I think most of us are understanding and, I hope, generally kind people. SJWs that get outraged over the smallest thing have made this front for equality a literal joke, and I think most of us are just having a bit of fun with how ridiculous it can all get and how it all falls on the shoulders of the majority to literally change everything about the way we see others in order to suit the few. Further, if we fail or don’t do it right, we’re awful and should be roasted.
That being said, I think a vast majority of people (myself included) are open to discussion and correction if we use the wrong pronouns, and respect other people’s right to chose their lifestyle without complaint. Just as we would like to have for ourselves. So, where you see dismal and draining, I see people just poking fun at an oversensitive culture that only serves to hurt progress, not foster it. And I see that coming from people who would probably be on board for having real discussions and being willing to accept correction and not pass judgment.
I sure don’t.
/image just a thought
@MagnaVis
Congrats on having that fucking luxury.
@brhfl I’m sorry, the luxury of preferring progressive discussion over regressive attacks and name calling? Maybe I came across wrong, but my point was that if we cut out the hypersensitivity that SJWs bring to the table and the condemnation hat accompanies it, we can all have a better chance at leveling with one another and moving forward on a real issue.
I’m literally telling you I feel bad that SJWs have done for the trans movement what radical feminists have done for third wave feminism, and that you’re needs aren’t getting the traction they deserve as a result.
I don’t see why I’m under fire from you here. I poke fun at myself frequently and I’m a good sport about a lot of things. If you took a view more like anemones and were a little more emotionally level about it all, maybe you won’t attack people that see literally what’s happening to the trans rights movement and instead discuss what can be done with them.
At the same time, you need a thicker skin, insert preferred pronoun here
@MagnaVis It is interesting that you use SJW as an insult. SJW means Social Justice Warrior, which implies that the SJW is motivated to help people achieve social justice. In this context, that means giving people the freedom to be who they are in terms of gender identity. Using SJW in a negative manner implies that you think people do not deserve that freedom. I’m sure that you didn’t mean it like that, after all, we are all “generally kind people”. I just wanted you to know so you don’t misuse that term.
I can agree that there is some over-sensitivity on this subject - from both sides. I mentioned in a different comment that you can never make enough categories to meet everyone’s diversity, so there has to be some compromise. However, I have to completely disagree that being sensitive “only serves to hurt progress”. You only get progress by moving forward, and that’s not found by being quiet. Being quiet means accepting the status quo, which isn’t what started the Revolutionary War, or gave women the right to vote, or ended slavery. People had to stand up and speak. Those people were SJWs, and my hat’s off to them. If they could stand up for what was right, then the least I can do is stand up in an anonymous forum and say something that will change nothing.
@jmassey
@MagnaVis I truly don’t have the energy for this, but it’s worth pointing out that I wasn’t calling anyone names, nor attacking anyone. Yes, I found many comments in this thread to be quite taxing, but I didn’t call anyone out, I wasn’t trying to silence anyone… You seem to have made a lot of assumptions about me and how ‘emotionally level’ I am. I certainly do think that it’s a luxury to have the privilege that allows you to brush off and laugh about things that are actively harmful to marginalized groups. Perhaps it will all be a bit funnier when trans youth feel safe enough in this world that they stop killing themselves, and when trans folks stop being beaten & murdered for simply existing.
@jmassey I appreciate your commentary but have to disagree on your definition of SJW. DrunkCat hit that one on the head. This is, by and large, the accepted difference between the two groups.
@brhfl I didn’t say you were calling names, and sorry if that was unclear. I was talking about SJWs and their approach to these issues.
You still seem to be misunderstanding me. I’m not laughing off things that marginalize non-binary folks. I’m, along with several others, laughing at the ridiculous over-sensitivity and the outright terrible picture painted by SJWs in their quest to establish fairness. The bathroom argument is ridiculous. There’s literally no statistical data that I’ve ever found that says if there were unisex bathrooms that more women would be at risk of sexual assault. I can think of no good reason why two men or women, or whatever, can’t get married. I do, however, understand that the state supporting 50+ genders on ID cards and such isn’t going to serve anyone. This is discussed elsewhere in this forum as “making the boxes/holes large enough to accommodate wider ranges of shapes.” I’m on board, I really don’t care how anyone lives their life as long as I have the right to live mine how I see fit as well.
However, you said, “Congrats on having that fucking luxury.” It’s only in this last post that you actually describe what “luxury” you think I have. You think cis men aren’t under fire? You think life is a cakewalk for me because I don’t struggle against gender identity laws and biases? For someone who asks me not to assume your emotional state, you seem to sure know a lot about my life. And you know what, you’re right about my assumption. I made a snap judgment based on two posts of yours. Maybe today isn’t a great day for you, but I don’t see cursing at someone who’s literally saying, “we can have fun at how out of hand this has all become while still acknowledging there are real issues underneath it that need to be addressed” as a very level approach.
I support discussion about real issues like trans suicide rates and marriage laws. I make fun of non-sense and SJWs. I believe that’s a healthy approach to life that doesn’t take it too seriously as to not get out alive. (#QuotesToLiveBy)
@MagnaVis it’s incredibly exhausting to have to constantly defend our existence as more than just a punchline. I went out of my way to not even use the word ‘nonbinary’ in an attempt to prevent exactly this kind of thread, and yet here we are.
Are there kids who have unrealistic expectations of how quickly hegemonic gender norms will change? Yes. Are there assholes out there using social justice as an excuse to be jerks? Absolutely. But the problem is that the anti-SJW fixation on those people (a tiny if very loud minority) leads to a lot of behavior that, intentionally or otherwise, continues to demonize trans people as a whole.
Saying that being cisgender gives you the luxury to treat these conversations as just a joke isn’t making any assumptions beyond that. It’s just saying that on this one thing - this very specific thing - your perspective gives you a safe distance from the subject, which not all of us can afford.
And then I have to do things like try to convince strangers that making fun of trans people is not harmless, instead of getting ready for work, which I am now late for goodbye
@MagnaVis @DrunkCat I find that the SJW page on Wikipedia was a little lacking, but found other sources that back up and enhance the origins of SJW. It appears, that while “social justice” is 200ish years old, “social justice warrior” is a little less than 5 decades old. However, 6 years ago, extreme right twitter users co-opted the term and made it an insult. As I’ve been an SJW longer than it’s been considered bad, I really take offense to it being used incorrectly. Now, I’ll know that you aren’t using it as derogatory towards me personally, and my skin is plenty thick, so don’t worry about me. But being informed is an important thing. I would suggest you avoid using such terminology lest you be associated with the negative element. But, as I’m an SJW, if anyone calls you an extremist or bigot, don’t worry: I’ll stand up for you until I see proof of that.
In support of @brhfl, who definitely started off vague and prompted a certain level of retribution, there’s a problem with your responses, and there’s no real answer and there’s no real blame with it either. As with most things, there isn’t a binary argument for how to handle gender identity issues. The spectrum starts with extremist “no rights in fact just kill 'em” and ends with the extremist “support all 972 permutations of gender identity”. Neither are right, and the vast majority of us are in the middle. Here’s where things get fuzzy. If you start from that first extreme and work your way over, the vast majority of the bigots are in the camp that says “as long as it doesn’t affect me, I’m okay with it”. This is the worst version of bigotry, because it promotes no growth. But you see the problem, don’t you? The vast majority of bigots are in this camp, but also vast majority of people who aren’t (and are not directly affected by this change). That means… you. I honestly don’t know if you are one of the bigots or one of the neutrals, and no one else does either. I assume you aren’t, but who can tell, right? So our friend @brhfl sees one more bigot, and can you really blame a person?
It sucks and it isn’t fair. I try to see the best in people, but I’ve certainly seen some horrible things.
Keep in mind, the same thing happens on the other side of the spectrum. And because there is a need for progress, for change, for a difference, there’s also an impetus to push the boundaries. There’s me, the SJW, pushing the boundaries. And here’s the thing. You don’t really know anything about me. I could be the SJW as the insult, or SJW I claim to be. But either way, I have to push for MORE than enough “gender identity” concessions. Why? Because this will always be a compromise. If I only ask for what I want, I will receive far less. I have to ask for more in order to get what’s really reasonable, but in doing so, I’m going to be pushing for things that border or cross over into ridiculousness. Again, no real answer, no real blame. It just sucks.
@jmassey According to Google trends SJW is a flat line until 2013 so I’m not sure where you sourced that it’s at least “5 decades old”. The addition of ‘warrior’ is quite literally there to apply the notion of extremism. To be a SJW without extreme is to be Christian without god. While you’re free to attempt to “redefine” it, do note that it’s a losing battle as those who still cling to the original definition of literally will tell you.
@DrunkCat This is easy. Start with the second paragraph and then start using citations as resources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior
Keep in mind, being an SJW typically means fighting losing battles
I do sense a trend, though. I write what appears to me to be a thoughtful and level response, and then you avoid or redirect. Perhaps we are hitting too close to home? Who can say for sure? All I know is it’s time for me to focus on other matters for the rest of the day.
@DrunkCat The issue with that graphic is when people decide anyone they don’t want to listen to is an SJW. Not saying that’s what you’re doing, but in certain other realms of the internet, “SJW” has become a catch-all for anyone with left-of-center politics that gets tossed out any time the status quo is challenged, and as a result carries so much baggage for both sides that it’s no longer a useful term in any kind of civilized discussion.Trying to delineate between social activists and “SJWs” is unhelpful when that line seems to shift depending on the mood of the person drawing it, and saying “well, my definition IS different” doesn’t go very far.
@jmassey Not sure where or even what I have avoided or redirected. Please feel free to point that out.
At any rate: Five decades is fifty years which would imply an origin point of around 1970 which the singular, questionably researched, article cited here only goes as far back as 1991. Wikipedia articles are only as strong as their sources and that article is a train wreck.
The most interesting part of this is how English is dictated by majority and common usage. It makes this entire point relatively moot outside of a “fun fact”. I explained to you its most commonly accepted definition vis a vis popular use via an oft-used tool for exactly that type of verification and your response is to double down on your personal definition. I recommend this comic by The Oatmeal.
@harveydanger This isn’t really unique to the term SJW, as “fascist” is also used in the same way. This is why I’ve simply aimed to clarify the core definition of the word. Folks will use whatever they fancy to shut down an argument or deflect but that’s not my concern. You want to talk about fascism I will talk about the requirement of authoritarianism with great emphasis on national identity. This isn’t simply me “well, my definition IS different” as @jmassey is doing, but clarifying the actual term in question. Whether the term is being used incorrectly positively or negatively.
@DrunkCat Mmkay.
@brhfl I hope you realize that you have friends here.
@Barney Aw, thanks, I certainly do.
@MagnaVis mmmaybe if you want to understand the lives other people lead, don’t lead off with the label SJW? Because it’s a term that trolls and women hating meatbags have used, a lot, against anyone who isn’t white and male and hetero and has any opinion at all about how things might be made better.
And that includes being used against the people you’d like to understand.
@jmassey
Ty for your remarks.
@anemones
@brhfl
@anemones said:
I told some jokes in this thread, which, I had hoped, were clearly pointed at me. Perhaps they came across that way, perhaps they didn’t. If not, then I apologize.
I didn’t tell jokes because I think of gender issues as involving nothing but punchline fodder (forget acknowledging that some persons have to go through extra misery and trouble and genuine difficulties and sometimes genuine horrors in their lives). And these are difficulties that I will never experience as you do, and therefore cannot fully appreciate.
I tell jokes because sometimes jokes just help me - and many others - just get through the damned day. I mostly tell them about me. Sometimes I tell them about stuff we all pretty much have to deal with. They’re a form of tiny emotional sustenance. I have a moment of stepping back from the trouble and toils, I have a joke, and then I go on.
But none of my attempts at humor are intended to demoralize anyone who faces a daily struggle, and none of them are intended to be insensitive. So if mine were, I owe you both amends.
I will never know exactly what either of you face each day. But many of us - myself or people I know - have faced situations in our lives (difficulties fitting into social expectations or roles, or serious emotional or life disorders, or similar) which endured, along with a lot of pain or rejection and apparent failure and endless frustration or pointless hostility, for years or decades. So I hope we aren’t completely clueless. I can well understand how someone’s daily interface with the social world can be so taxing that even the simplest days are exhausting.
I hope you perceive from people here some sense of being valued.
And someday, perhaps, you will feel valued out in the big bad world also. I hope so.
@DrunkCat
I find that how “social justice warrior” or SJW is interpreted depends deeply on the POV of who is saying it, and the POV of those about whom the term is used.
from wikipedia link:
In my own experience, the term is recently, as used when labeling a person or a group, intended as an insult. Sometimes other labels are thrown at the back and forth. I find this all unhelpful. I don’t commonly insult people by pejorative labels, or I certainly hope I’m not doing that.
Re: “social justice warrior” vs “social justice activist”: I would prefer to deal with the quality level of the specific arguments offered, rather than labels.
Many of our ideas about {what social justice, human decency, manners, acceptance, welcome, and empathy should be} are in flux, and I am glad of that. During periods of social change about roles and expectations, there is often a lot of ugliness and knee-jerk judgment. I hope most people I know actively avoid that and actively try for the opposite.
The cited Washington Post article gives some history of the term before and after gamergate. The artible is here, for anyone interested:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/10/07/why-social-justice-warrior-a-gamergate-insult-is-now-a-dictionary-entry/
@f00l As I said, both the Wikipedia article and the WP article are a mess. Loads of projection and reaching that I can only help be reminded of this:
At least it works as a reminder to why citing Wikipedia is embarrassing.
At any rate, dealing with quality of an argument is what labels are for. After all there’s a whole website dedicated to labeling fallacies. This one being pertinent in this insistence. Just like SJW, those labels can too be misused by anyone; however this does not make them irrelevant. Anything can be a pejorative.
@f00l thanks for being open to discussion and listening to folks! It’s always heartening to see people engaging with this whole subject with, well, any degree of good faith. Also I had forgotten about the Gamergate connection but it explains so much.
@everyone I hate being a killjoy - humor is what keeps me going too, and it’s always a bummer to be the one going “hey uh, that’s not funny when it actually happens to you.” It’s just that if you’re trans, a lot of the jibes in these comments are the equivalent of ‘get me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen’ jokes. They’re tired. We’ve heard them a hundred times, and maybe a couple of people telling them weren’t actively hostile towards our existence, but a hell of a lot of them were. And it’s not safe - I mean that literally - to assume everyone’s ~just kidding~. Even if you are, I guarantee you there’s a transmisogynist out there who’s nodding along and assuming you agree with their bigotry.
I promise you that there’s plenty of humor left in the world if you take a break from ragging on trans people. You might be laughing with us, but you’re repeating the same shit that gets said by people who are definitely laughing at us.
Not really sure why (or even if) it matters. As long as I am not trying to bed you one way or the other, your sex (or personal concept of your sex) is really immaterial. I have lots of shared experiences/interests with both my female and male friends, be they straight, gay, bi, trans or other. I am perfectly comfortable with who you are as long as it’s OK to be who I am.
As for the whole gender-self-identity bathroom issue, I like the concept of “bathroom”. This is especially practical in smaller establishments, and alleviates having to wait while the bathroom with the “female” identifier line gets their turn and the “male” bathroom stays unused…one identifier based on the function (ie “bathroom”, “restroom”, “crapper”, “loo”, “W/C”, or whatever) on both facilities allows a more regulated and efficient flow of patrons. Or perhaps there should be three… “men’s”, “women’s”, and “restroom” in bigger venues. The idea of using a unisex bathroom doesn’t faze me in the least. It’s not like there aren’t stalls around the toilets in multi-seat restrooms, or that I don’t know why you are going into the bathroom…
@chienfou Someone came up with the perfect all-gender bathroom sign a while back. It’s genius.
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2014/04/gender-neutral-bathroom-sign/#sthash.hTQoOEBR.dpbs
@chienfou I ran a convention for a tiny video game genre that traditionally notes the player as an @ sign. I swapped the bathroom signs to use @ where the bodies would be, and wrote underneath “Restroom: all adventurers welcome”. Worked pretty well. Later on I found a wooden @ at Target, which I’m planning to hang on my bathroom door when I finally live in a place of my own.
@chienfou
@dave Love it!
@chienfou
Because of all the gaps in the stalls, I’m not even comfortable with unisex bathrooms. Until each stall is basically its own room, I don’t see very many people getting excited about this sort of change.
@DVDBZN In Europe and Asia unisex bathrooms have been around for years. The main difference is the gaps you mentioned. Europeans are shocked and appalled by them. Their stalls are basically little rooms within the restroom. If you can’t see inside through the gaps who cares who’s outside?
Until the USA starts using this style stall I for one DO NOT want my daughters or granddaughters sharing restrooms with males, no matter what gender they identify with.
@JanaS What is to stop a creepy female from peeping on them? What is to stop a creepy male from dressing like a women and sneaking in to be creepy? Nothing. Nothing is in place to stop it. Unisex restrooms are not any more welcoming to creepers than male/female restrooms. The only deterrence is the fear of being caught. If you get caught creeping in an unisex bathroom, you will be punished just as severely as a female-only bathroom.
@medz The point is using wall to ceiling stalls with no gaps and room enough to move around. Then the creepy people can’t peek.
@JanaS I’m all for that. My argument is that that unisex bathrooms would not embolden creeps.
Did you ever read The Left Hand of Darkness? It’s a great book.
@PocketBrain
It is.
Cisgender male here. But my partner identifies as non-binary, and it does matter.
Think about it this way: You remember as a kid those toys where you had to put the shapes in the right shaped holes? Say you got one of those with two holes: a circle, and a square. But someone hands you a triangle… what the heck slot do you put that one in?
As humans, we’re really good as trying to systematize and create boxes for things. It’s how our brains work. But reality is more complicated than the models we create to organize it, and the more we learn about gender, the more complicated it ends up being. Some people’s assigned boxes are wrong—either they map to the “opposite” box, or they don’t map to an “existing” box at all.
You have two solutions in this case: Either add boxes, or force people into the wrong boxes. One of these is a much better solution than the other. (Hint: It’s the first one.)
@sanspoint If someone hands you a triangle when you’re playing the circle and square game I think it means whoever handed you the triangle is trying to f’ with your head! Some learn earlier than others that you have to take a stand when this happens. In the case of euphemistically associating the square peg in the round hole analogy to gender considerations; the basic premise of this “game” is to analyze intelligence and perception of physical reality. This is the point in the game when you refuse the triangle because you know it’s not part of the game. Or, maybe better yet, like the “War Games” conclusion; the only winning move is not to play.
It might be easier to associate the sprinkles on a turd analogy to gender analysis. It may look like a chocolate sundae with sprinkles but in reality it’s just a turd with sprinkles on it. Either way, it still means someone is f’n with you. The big question is, who is this asshole?
The bottom line is: mutual respect for every person means no asshole is going to hand you a triangle. Or, if they do, the square and round hole will be large enough for it to fit through.
I personally don’t judge and if someone needs my support I’m going to be there for them. Just please leave the government out of it.
@sanspoint Maybe you can explain this whole gender thing to me because I really don’t understand (and am not trying to be a jerk). Nature is binary (with the occasional exception)- X and Y chromosomes and genital development. The rest seems like societal bullshit to me. I’m good with guys having sex with other guys and wearing dresses and high heels and liking shopping more than football- whatever floats your boat. I have a major issue with the way Americans look at gender.
What I don’t get is the need to call yourself something that biology doesn’t support and use surgery to modify things. Is there really some real inborn drive to have a body other than what you were born with or is it trying to conform to what society thinks you should have?
@accelerator When you’re handed the triangle, maybe the answer isn’t to refuse it, but that the “game” is missing some required pieces. That’s the whole point. The triangle exists, you can’t pretend it’s not there. The triangle has the same rights as the other shapes to be part of the game, so the game adapts to include a triangle-shaped hole.
/giphy Open your mind
@sammydog01 , I think I can give a reasonable answer. Have you ever had a haircut? Did it ever have any form to it at all? Nature says “your hair grows, and it breaks off when it gets too long”. If you cut it, you are conforming to comfort/safety/society, in some distribution. If it has any shape or form to it (not just shaving it off), then the safety percentage is gonna be really low. So now it’s about looking how want, and feeling how you want. It’s the same with gender, in a way. Biology is binary when discussing DNA genetic gender (excluding xxy), but gender identity is so much more than that. Hormones are different for everyone, so your male genitalia might be thick or thin, long or short, your breasts might be pert or pendulous, and so on. What about personality?
Some people are “manly” men, and some are effeminate. This creates a spectrum of gender identity, which is different than genetic gender. In this spectrum, some choose to change their bodies, most don’t. However, any guy who worked out in a gym to become the buff specimen that goes with the concept of masculinity or the woman who gets a boob job to be more feminine - those people are changing their bodies to conform to societal views as well, it just isn’t contrary to their genetic genders based on your perception of societal norms.
@accelerator To your point, you aren’t completely off base on some things. The square/circle/triangle game analogy isn’t bad, but it doesn’t work perfectly. People aren’t square/circle/triangle. I’m at least a hectogon. So, you can’t make a hole to fit everyone’s peg (there’s an opening - oh no, I can’t stop!). You are right, you have to make the holes big enough to take those odd shapes. And, there has to be a reasonable amount of compromise on the size and shape of everyone’s pegs (why won’t it stop?!), because it’s just not feasible to specially accommodate everyone’s specific peg (no! just stop!). Unfortunately, while I’d like to agree it’s not government’s place to deal with this, I can’t. My friend is hetero female, but very masculine. She went into a female bathroom, and was confronted by a “concerned citizen”, a man who felt she had entered the wrong bathroom. Fortunately, this particular time, everything was defused, but this is not an isolated incident. I’m all for big brother staying out of people’s lives, and I’m all for sticking up for anyone who needs help, but what about when I’m not there? Sometimes, big brother needs to set up guidelines, rules, and laws to offer everyone protection all the time. I worked for a company that fired an extremely competent man who wore makeup and a dress to work. How can you support that man? The easiest answer is to support government intervention - and I honestly wish that wasn’t the case. But I can’t support and stand up for everyone who needs help.
@jmassey Gender is just a gap word in the language to project the notion of a binary using the biological construct of sex. It’s not really meant to apply to humans or really anything with a sex because it becomes redundant (and a tad dehumanizing). It’s designed to be applied to inanimate sexless objects like boats and countries, e.g. “For the motherland”, or “The enterprise always finds her way home” are considered to be ‘gendered’ for the function of English, much like the end of a plug is said to be “gendered” not “sexed”. It’s a quirk of English much like Japanese have distinct words of existence dependent on being animate or not.
What you’re explaining has absolutely nothing to do with gender but more so to do with aesthetics. Tom boy is not a “gender”, nor is being goth, preppy, nerdy or any other plethora of cultural aesthetics that have waxed and waned over the past millennia. I mean, are the men who introduced heel footwear to be retroactively labeled as some sort of unique gender identifier?
@DrunkCat So… I think you agree with me? Just not my usage of the word “gender”? Your aesthetics is exactly what makes up the spectrum of “gender identity”, a phrase which google graces me with “the internal perception of one’s gender, and how they label themselves, based on how much they align or don’t align with what they understand their options of gender to be…Often confused with biological sex, or sex assigned at birth”. When I previously referred to “genetic gender”, you are completely correct that “sex” was the correct word.
I really like your point of men introducing heels as not having a gender identity that necessarily includes “feminine”. This speaks to the societal norms of the times.
@jmassey Aesthetics aren’t biologically sexed so they could be referred to as gendered except that they aren’t binary so the term is still misapplied. It could be more properly discussed as styles, cliques, scene, personality, etc.
@DrunkCat I’m afraid one of us isn’t smart enough for this conversation, and I’m afraid it might be me. Of course, “aesthetics” are not biological sexed, but they are part of “gender identity”. If the aesthetic of wearing high heels and hose are perceived as feminine under current 2010’s American culture, then that aesthetic does currently affect an attribute of a person’s “gender identity”. Neither hose nor heels have always been feminine, but today, they are. So I’m still not sure what you are trying to teach me.
@jmassey Joe Namath wore panty hose under his uniform.
@sammydog01 Well, for one, one of the aspects of how gender dysphoria manifests is in reaction to the body and its development. A metaphor I’ve used in the past is, well, if you’ve ever read The Metamorphosis, there’s that the part in the beginning where Gregor Samsa is awake in bed, aware something is wrong with his body, but unsure of what. Try to imagine living with that every day.
There’s a number of theories about why this happens to people, and nothing’s been confirmed yet.* What we do know is that allowing someone to undergo hormone replacement therapy and transition to living as a different gender goes a huge way to helping someone with gender dysphoria feel at home in their body. And this goes whether or not they undergo sexual reassignment surgery (which, as you can probably imagine, is a huge hassle to put it mildly.)
*Please note that I am not a biologist, gender theorist, or anything like that, but the theory I find most appealing is based on research into the complexities of biological gender. There’s a likelihood that your body contains a combination of XX and XY cells, not just all XX or XY. I wonder if transgender and agender people have a mix that leans more towards the “opposite” gender, causing the brain to expect a set of hormones and body development that the rest of the body won’t provide. Which would explain the utility of HRT.
@jmassey Thanks for the response. So you are saying that it’s more societal pressure to conform to expected behaviour? Because that’s pretty sad if it’s true. The school my kids go to separates the genders in middle school. My quiet, action movie loving daughter spent four years listening to girls sing “Frozen” and the latest boy band songs every day. It just about drove her nuts. Why can’t they just let kids be themselves?
@sanspoint Fascinating article- thanks. I have one concern- The medical community used HRT as a cure for menopause symptoms (they are trying to do the same thing with testosterone now). Turns out it caused cancer. I hope that the doctors working with hormone therapy have some idea what they are doing and aren’t using trans people as guinea pigs.
@sammydog01 Well, it’s a different kind of HRT used for transgender folks, and usually applied earlier in life. Still, a risk is a risk, but cancer is probably the least of risks a transgender person faces with transitioning.
How about "I don’t care about anyone’s parts as long as they don’t wave them in my face without an invitation?"
What I DO care about is no matter what parts you have, please for the love of everything good and pure in the world, wipe off the god damned toilet seat when you take a piss in a public bathroom.
I don’t care if you have some irrational fear of catching zika or worms from a toilet seat so you have the compulsion to hover. What I DO care about is your urine covering the seat and the floor because you are an inconsiderate ass of a human being.
@LaVikinga Preach it!!
@LaVikinga Ugh. Thank you! I have a co-worker that hovers and never wipes her piss off the seat. We have those toilet protectors. Put one of those and pee all over it if you still refuse to sit. At least that way when you flush, the seat is dry.
I’m tempted to put a sticky note in the specific stall she uses to urge people to clean up after peeing everywhere.
I don’t track people’s bathroom habits… But when you get stuck in the stall after that person several times and it’s always pee covered, it’s easy to realize who the culprit is.
@RiotDemon Stick this on the inside of the door.
https://www.amazon.com/SPRINKLE-WHILE-TINKLE-SWEETIE-SEATIE/dp/B002XIMXS4
@LaVikinga
@LaVikinga How does one get receive an invitation to wave their parts in your face?
@MrMark
/youtube invitation to the pants party brick
@RiotDemon Hunt her down, call her back into the stall and demand she clean up her piss. Do it for ALL of us!!
@Pantheist I firmer believe the sprinklers are narcissists who don’t think they should be required to clean their mess because “they have people who get paid to clean these toilets.” They are the entitled bitches who sport one of those “let me speak to your manager” attitudes (and sometimes the haircut, too).
@MrMark I have yet to figure out this. It just seems to happen.
@medz Is a Helicopter Dick known as a Tricky Dick, or maybe known as a Nixon?
@LaVikinga If it’s not, it should be.
I’m not sure why some people get so hung-up on bathrooms.
Safety/Security - Yes, there are creepers out there, but there has never been anything to stop them from lurking in the bathroom. This is why I will do a sweep of the women’s restroom when we are in sketchy places before sending my wife or daughter in. At the very least, I’ll stay within screaming distance. There could be a crazy person of the same sex/gender in there. Signs and rules will not stop creepers from creeping. We have to look out for each other and report suspicious behavior.
Privacy/Awkwardness/Embarrassment - Public restrooms are awkward; there is no getting around that. Relieving yourself in a public space is a pretty compromising position to be in. I suppose some people will feel less embarrassed if they’re stinking up a room filled with members of the same sex, but I don’t see why. A stranger is a stranger. We’re all humans and we have no control over our bodily functions. I don’t like another dude witnessing my wiping habits any more than I would like a woman to see such things. But, you know, shit happens. It’s a fact.
It’s a cultural thing just like #freethenipple. It makes no sense when you think about it. Why is seeing a female’s boob a big deal? Why is a person with a penis using the same bathroom as a person without one such a big deal? It isn’t. It’s all about social norms which evolve over time.
Bathroom usage is not a key argument in this discussion, but it seems to be a point of fixation for a large number of people.
@medz Especially when you realize that women public bathrooms are usually pretty disgusting compared to mens rooms.
@medz Perhaps they are worried about the creepy guy doing a sweep of the bathroom in sketchy places.
@cranky1950 i hear this all the time and it is so blatantly untrue it horrifies me. i don’t know where you all live to experience this, but i have a feeling its more to do with “if i womens room is slightly gross, it’s grosser than a mens room being horrifyingly disgusting” sort of feeling than anything.
@cranky1950 Oh, dear gawd, yes!!! My husband was shocked to realize the Women’s “Heads” and berthing spaces were some of the most disgusting spaces aboard the carriers he cruised on he ever had to inspect. It really altered his “women fart pixie dust and poop rainbow Twinkies” mindset.
@meh 5 Years experience as a housekeeping supervisor in a major dept store while going to school. I know what I’m talking about.
@cranky1950 meh. you must have nasty women. mens room here just closed because dude pissed all over the floor again.
@meh Stop hiring undocumented 3d worlders
@cranky1950 what?
@cranky1950
Women shop more - far more - than men, in places like dept stores. And if you did this work while a student, then I presume that was in an era during which the ratio of the time women spent shopping vs the amount of time men did was even more pronounced. I presume the womens restroom got way more use than the mens.
I, too, have done that work, though never in a retail store. In office buildings both restrooms stayed quite clean. In warehouse or other non-office settings, the men’s restrooms were never as clean as the women’s.
So I suppose there is no single rule.
@f00l and the mens room is usually a third the size of the the ladies. Face it most women are slobs.
@cranky1950 I don’t see why you have to say that most women are slobs from your experience at ONE department store. I work retail and I’ve helped clean the restrooms and I could make a similar conclusion that the men are more disgusting. Sure, women tinkle on the seat, but the men’s restroom is where men would pee all over the floor around the urinals, and they would splatter shit on the walls. There was many times that the managers would have to get involved cleaning the men’s because someone dribbled shit all over the floor trying to make it to the toilet, or they’d have a fountain of shit that got all over the toilet seat, behind the seat, and up the wall. There was a few times that they broke out the pressure washer. That never happened in the women’s.
Humans are disgusting. It’s not a contest about who is grosser.
@cranky1950
In the places I worked, or place where I have had reason to know the size of both rooms, the various womens and mens restrooms were always the same size, as well as being mostly equally very neat.
In a department store, esp from the 1950-1970’s, of course the womens restrooms were larger. The staff and customers were mostly female, and no one was terribly focused on gender equality in restrooms. Also the niceness of a restroom for women factors into whether women liked a particular store vs another one.
During childhood, I saw “powder rooms” containing couches or easy chairs, or separate “powder room” mirror areas for tweaking appearance, in department stores Mom explained that some women expected those items to be there, so they were.
The gender variations in levels of restroom neatness only varied much in areas that were really “blue collar”. Esp the areas for big rig activity. In those areas the womens restrooms were usually far neater. (The mens restrooms near the dock areas got heavier use in the place I worked for a while.)
Re being slobs: lots of people are slobs.
How about them “weird wimmen” that may be willing to tolerate you from time to time? Are they slobs? Do you like them, in part, because they are slobs? Do they like you, in part, because you are a slob?
Are you cranky because you are a slob?
Are you cranky because other people are slobs?
@f00l cranky because the 3D people don’t like him.
@meh Hmmmm seemed to have hit a hot button. What should we call this ah! Alternative hygiene. Yes most women are not slobs they adhere to alternative hygiene. There happy?
@cranky1950 well i’m sure everything is considered alternative in your wee alternative world. is it better or worse than the 3d world?
@meh Cool invoke Scott Baio Y’all attacking me because I don’t cave in to your femnazi claptrap.
@cranky1950 okay
@cranky1950 Why did you have to bring Scott Baio into this man? Not cool.
@Chops I thought invoking Scott to be a timely and valid resopnse. Remember when they’ve got you on the ropes go meta.
@cranky1950
You could be a bit more cranky. You could try.
Signed -
FemNazi
I am offended and will launch a twitter campaign against this egregious privilege displayed by meh for not including A-10 on listed identification.
@DrunkCat
You have only yourself to blame.
@DrunkCat You identify as a military warplane? How do I get on your level?
/giphy teach me
@MagnaVis
@DrunkCat
O.O
How have I never seen this?! Thank you, sir. I’m pretty sure this guy is my spirit animal.
@DrunkCat There’s a way to make fun of people who wage social media shame campaigns without also making fun of people who don’t identify as male or female.
@DrunkCat You’re not alone
Fixed wing or rotary - YOU. ARE. LOVED.
http://helicopterbro.tumblr.com/
@harveydanger We all have our coping mechanism, mine happens to be humor. Check your privilege.
When I was younger I wanted to be a horse. Some days I still do.
@OldCatLady That’s quite the stallion.
@DrunkCat the horse isn’t bad looking either…
SO EDGY.
@meh
btw, if we’re talking about bathrooms. i wish everywhere would install fully enclosed stalls. perhaps its a social thing here in the PNW, but womens rooms especially around here and at my job are often full of people waiting…and waiting…and waiting…on very overcrowded bathrooms to become empty so they can take a shit. some people say they’re watching movies or playing games, but everyone does that at their desk here, and i’m quite sure it’s really they just need to shit and think the bathroom will empty out for them. my favorite is when there’s two people already in there doing the poop wait, and a 3rd decides to jump in. i’ve heard the same thing happens in the mens room, especially because there’s fewer stalls. i’m not even unguilty of waiting a minute, because i’m pee shy and sometimes i have a hard time peeing when there is someone next to me waiting in dead silence for me to leave. but man, the phrase “shit or get off the pot” has never been so real since i started working here.
also i like bars/restaurants that have single person bathrooms, because i also can’t stand people standing outside my stall or having a social gathering at the sink. however, when these bathrooms are unisex, why is it that men manage to pee everywhere? still preferable to traditional public bathrooms, though.
@meh I always feel weird when people are brushing their teeth in the bathroom. I just feel like that would be a little unsettling, having a stranger drop off a load while you’re trying to scrub your munchers.
@brhfl i love when they come in and start brushing their teeth and doing makeup while 3 people are trying to shit and now suddenly they all have the awkward fear of being seen if they try to leave now. waiting intensifies.
@meh I hate trying to go when the person in the next stall is talking on the phone. It seems like second hand bad manners.
@sammydog01
I’m always tempted to say or do things that will make them stop. If they are really annoying, I might just ask them to stop.
Public restroom improvement ideas:
What are your ideas?
force colostomies on every1.
@medz Cable TV in stalls
Reclining toilet seats
Mood lighting
Light snacks & a beer tap
Pinball machine
Attendant on-hand to help if needed
@daveinwarsh I blame myself for you having forgotten the seashells.
@daveinwarsh Ah yes. Nothing hits the spot like a good toilet beer.
@medz Well, since Meh made me a convert: bidets. But some kind of super-hygienic, mega-self-cleaning bidet.
@medz Build all bathrooms like slaughter houses.
No frills, prison-style stainless everything. Sloped floors with drains in the center so they can be hosed down, and in fancier buildings maybe a fixed pressure-washer that automatically turns on after every stall use.
We got ittoo good these days - people get too comfortable while they poop. You’re here to discretely engage in the shameful removal of waste, not look at instagram and play angry birds.
Or maybe just install carpet… that would probably weird people out enough they just wouldn’t use it.
For home use though: bidets, skylights, nice tile floor, silver-plated fixtures and turtle decorations everywhere. And a speaker that loops Darude -Sandstorm
re: the poll question … i’m not offended and it’s not complicated. i choose not to identify myself at all. know me by the crap i post. that’s it.
New poll:
When wiping, do you:
a) stay firmly seated reaching between the legs
b) stay firmly seated reaching from behind
c) lean slightly in one direction
d) squat just above the seat
e) stand nearly straight up
f) I’ll take it to my grave!
wiping?!? oh wow, radical idear.
I’ve been wondering whats going to happen to all the setasides for women owned businesses. In some areas of the country (and at the federal level) being ‘woman owned’ is a significant benefit in getting contracts and work, and being otherwise can lock you out of a lot, no matter how qualified (or sometimes even how much more qualified) your business might be.
So if Big Bearded Jake can identify as a woman or other ‘primarily female oriented gender type’ and use a women’s rest room at Target, why can’t Jake (to avoid using an indeterminate pronoun given the situation and I refuse to use the ‘zhe, zir’ idiocy I see on twitter) shop Jake’s own business around as woman owned, and be seriously offended if someone calls Jake on it. After all who is anyone else to say what gender Jake is except Jake?
@duodec We have that covered: what’s in the gender slot on your ID and/or birth certificate?
As long as transitioning legally (e.g., getting your ID and Birth Certificate updated to change the M to an F, or vice-versa, or to an X if you’re agender/genderqueer) remains difficult, this is going to be a non-issue. Even if it becomes easier—which it should—I think it will still be a non-issue, because it’s still going to be a hell of a step to get that done just to game the system. And the few people stupid enough to try would probably be pretty easily caught.
@duodec because if you’re not a woman it would really suck to live as a woman.
Because ask any woman what their day to day life is like. They catch a lot more shit, like more than you even imagine you can imagine, on a daily basis, at work, on the street, on public transit, etc.
If purely hypothetical Jake actually existed, he’d be trading a fucking cush life for one where just as one of example bigots would be more likely to straight up murder him for looking like a man but being a woman.
I still say the perfect gender-neutral pronoun is a combination of She He & IT: SHIT.
People who don’t fit the traditional gender binary have been fighting real existential threats for much of their lives, including physical assaults, discrimination for work and housing, and until recently, exclusion from many queer communities and support organisations. I’ve heard non-binary and trans friends’ personal stories and read many others, and it is often the darkest shit you can imagine. Many people are active in advocacy, not just for themselves, but for their friends who can’t speak because they’re fucking dead.
The bathroom issue is not a hypothetical one for people facing the very real possibility of someone making threats or calling the cops every time they have to use the bathroom at work, school or another public place. Trans and non-binary folks are routinely harrassed in bathrooms, often regardless of which bathroom they choose, because of the myriad reasons someone can use to decide they don’t “belong”. (This has even happened to cis women who weren’t deemed to look convincingly “female”).
Our understanding of sexuality and gender from biological, sociological, and behavioural perspectives has vastly grown in just the past few decades. (Yes, there is some new vocabulary, but it’s descriptive of things that have always existed. No, there aren’t 31 flavours of gender or whatever pokedex you might have seen, gender identity is essentially a continuum with two well-defined loci, and the same also applies to sexual preference. Biological sex, on the other hand, has several discrete components, but is also not a binary). Would it behoove the folks here to read up on gender and sexuality instead of rolling out tired jokes about SJWs or tumblr crap?
This is a good summary, but I wish it included citations. Here is a longer, more detailed discussion, particularly as it relates to developmental and behavioural biology.
I’m really disappointed in the community right now.
@trisk that was an excellent description. Thank you.
@trisk
@trisk The bathroom thing is insane. Especially in women’s bathrooms which have stalls- the bad stuff they talk about isn’t by trans gender people. But here they are talking about middle and high school locker rooms. And some advocates are saying that having a partition isn’t acceptable. Is this just extremists or is this where we are heading? Again this is a real question, not trying to be a jerk. I’m totally with you on bathrooms.
@sammydog01 The discussions about locker rooms that I’ve read about arose from incidents of students being forced to use designated areas to change, including broom closets, because they were trans.
Partitions have been suggested as a solution for locker rooms (and similarly, required private stalls in bathrooms). They seem to reduce complaints or harassment of trans students. Even if they shouldn’t be necessary to prevent these things from happening, all students should have a right to privacy and partitions provide that without singling anyone out. It seems like a move in the right direction.
I haven’t read about arguments opposing partitions, but for the bathroom and locker room issues in general there’s a lack of factual support for concerns about peeping by trans people. It’s been mostly the old associations with immorality or believing that somehow trans people are just faking it, despite what research actually shows.
@DrunkCat I have lost count of the number of times I’ve watched cis people lose their minds over how ~out there~ and ~completely ridiculous~ nonbinary genders are when what they’re referring to is actually jokes between trans people or trolls. Trans folks are expected to laugh along at every unimaginative copypasted-from-4chan ‘joke’ when the second we take a minute to joke around and be silly and not take ourselves 110% seriously, on our own terms, somebody shows up and uses it as an example of how no one should ever take us seriously ever again.
@anemones New York City didn’t think it was a joke.
At any rate I was just ribbing at the hypocrisy.
Thread is
AF fam, shout out to the individual who thought of this question.
I owe you at least several beers
for the hours of entertainment this will surely bring me 
(I just upgraded my keyboard)
@Chops I gotta say this thread is an education for me- totally being serious here.
@sammydog01 Learn anything particularly interesting?
@Chops Have you read through?
@sammydog01 Nope! Not quite, I’ve read a little bit though - my initial assessment seems correct though
/youtube always a woman to me
I’ve been thinking about how best to do a “how could someone be a gender other than their body” intro. Because if you’ve not had the experience yourself, or not been close to someone who has, it’s something you might or might not get.
So let me try. And apologies to trans, nonbinary, and queer folk whose experiences I’ve not captured accurately. I haven’t lived in your shoes, and am more trying to expand on a basic hetero view of the world rather than 100% accurately get the fine points.
That said, let’s go for it.
There are lots of ways the brain and the physical body can disagree on how things are. And when I say disagree I don’t mean intellectually, but at a deep level, one that’s a formed sense of self that exists at a level deeper than choice.
Some examples of the brain and body disagreeing;
a patient having a near death experience where they are floating above and looking down at their body on an operating table.
someone using VR glasses in a game where they’re 7’ tall, when in real life theyre 5’4, and becoming nauseous from seeing things in the “wrong” (too tall) perspective.
a diabetic or war vet who lost a limb but still feels it.
a trans man who is born with breasts and a vagina and a female build, who is treated like a woman by family and friends, but who is male inside, who fundamentally is male but in the wrong body.
a trans woman born with a penis and a male build, who is treated like a man by family and friends, but who is female inside, who fundamentally is female but in the wrong body.
So in some of these cases like phantom limbs you can say “the brain is wrong, there’s no limb there, let’s fix this.” And in the near death floating experience, some people call this a religious or spiritual experience, while others see it more like the VR one, where part of the brain is responsible for imagining where “you” are - normally right where your eyes are rather than say at your belly button or 5’ above your head, can shift it’s perspective so far that you have an “out of body” experience.
In the trans cases, you have people suffering, and you also have society expecting people to have the same sex as their gender, so there’s a nice easy biological test (has/lacks a penis or vagina) to determine whether they are male or female. Society expects this because for many, it’s accurate. And if it’s accurate for you, it may be hard to imagine it’s not accurate for everyone.
For a long time, being trans was seen as a mental illness, i.e. the brain is wrong, so let’s treat the brain. And historically this has not worked. It turns out that the wiring for “I am a man” and “I am a woman” (and nonbinary and fluid roles, but I’m keeping this simple) is something that doesn’t take to being changed by shaming, by intellectual arguments, by chemical treatments, religious conversion therapy, or (in some awful times) electroshock.
In fact it fails so badly that many trans people, treated this way, have committed suicide or led supremely unhappy lives.
Instead, it is far more effective to bring the body and social identity into alignment with the brain. Just as all people are unique, so are trans people. For some changing how they present to the world (clothes, mr vs ms, hair, speech therapy) are enough to keep the brain and body happy. For others hormone therapy so they acquire some of the physical characteristics of their gender (a trans man taking estrogen blockers and testosterone to develop facial hair and muscle, a trans woman taking estrogen to develop breasts and maybe having their facial hair removed) brings things into alignment.
And for some its surgery to have breasts removed or a penis turned into a vagina.
The realization that the body and brain can disagree, and that it is more successful to bring the body around to the brain’s point of view is kinda fundamental here.
I’ve had a few friends and a relative who have a birth certificate that says one thing (the “assigned” in assigned male/female at birth) and a gender that is not that. Some realized early, in adolescence, others realized later, in middle age.
For all of them, it was a great relief to finally have a name and a path that could make them comfortable in their own skin. One friend told me that looking back her brain was distracted about 30% of the time because things weren’t right. Not distracted like “i wish I were a woman” thoughts, built distracted like “there’s something terribly wrong”/anguish with no name for it.
I hope I’ve not offended anyone by oversimplifying this, or speaking about things that I’ve only heard and seen, rather than lived, and I know I’ve not said much about gender fluidity and non-binary people’s experiences. I just wanted to describe, in the best way I know, how a body and mind can be at odds, that in this case it’s safer and more successful to change one’s social and physical presentation than to “convince” or treat the mind to change, and to say that the people who are trans, didn’t come to that realization lightly. You risk a lot to live as a trans man or woman, but the benefit is being at peace with your body.
@zippyus About the risk aspect: until the late 19th- early 20th century, birth gender defined what work you could perform. Only wealthy people had the option to flout societal norms; working people did man’s work or woman’s work, and few jobs were open to all. Skilled trades were guarded by guilds, unions, apprenticeships, and I can’t think of any woman who even tried. Widows inheriting a husband’s business could keep it going, but the physical labor was not possible for them. Census occupations show the delineation clearly: https://books.google.com/books?https://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/00779830ch1.pdf
@zippyus I don’t know how that link went so badly wrong. The second line .pdf is good, though.
@OldCatLady those are good points, and we still have a long way to go.
I’m A Man
I’m A Woman