Deleted post log 2-9-2015
15I am deleting the following posts from the first comments of this mornings event. I will probably go further than @jont will in the future in trying to filter down to quality.
in price check area and also worthless
too worthless for early trendsetting comments:
likely meta based on new rules posted - mildly funny but given trendsetting position and poor signal to noise I deleted it
tired of various ways to say meh so while this attempt at humor is at least creative it gets the ax
less creative easy delete
maybe more creative? deleted
So there are a few more marginal ones I've left - My take is as you start getting a reasonable density of relevant observations, questions and critiques, the signal to noise ratio allows for it.
edit: also the eyepatch one I cut above could have stayed were it in the general comment area. I think comments about the joke image (and write up) are above the bar due to being specifically related to the event.
edit: shit, it's 2015 - I avoided that mistake all year until now.
- 27 comments, 64 replies
- Comment
@darksaber99999 I have to admit after reading about the editing, my heart sank a bit and I had flashbacks to those dark days of torches & pitchforks in the Community section at Deals. I completely understand Snapster's reasoning behind this, but I hope there really is a more elegant way of solving the problem.
@Thumperchick Please make a notation, in your "Scapegoats of Meh" thread, that Barney was the first goat to be "deleted".
This is so baaaad!
@Barney you are baaaaaaaaaaaad goatasaur!
@Barney for the record, you can still say that you like/love/everything else purple.
funny: we are so against over-moderation of critical commentary that we bought modnazi.com with the idea that we could build an internet-wide spot for screen captures of moderated posts. then the next day we realized how horrible the name was. hopefully our registration will expire soon!
@snapster Sounds like you guys did nazi how tasteless the domain name was when you bought it.
@snapster
@hallmike you have my star - well played.
@snapster You can probably cancel out your registration; just contact your registrar if there's not an immediate way to do it on the control panel (I didn't look). Folks who inadvertently register trademark terms are often in the same boat and just want to get rid of a bad name.
Hey @snapster, not sure if this has been considered, but perhaps instead of outright deletion of sundry chaff posts to reveal the wheat of brilliance of other posts, those posts can simply be flagged as sundry chaff, and by default people will see forum pages without sundry chaff showing, but we can have a toggle to view both the wheat and the chaff at our own pleasure/peril?
Just an early thought for a Monday morning...
@curtise yeah, there are definitely more elegant solutions - some of which may even be in the works.
@curtise I have a way to deal with sundry chaff, it's called "scroll."
@Teripie If Sundry Chaff ever comes back to this here town, he won't realize what a heap o' trouble he'll be in!
Barkeep, get me a sarsaparilla!
@snapster I'm sure you're all over it, but I kinda like how ARS does it. Including the pagination. Could be easier to find my own posts though...
Holy shit. It's more heavy-handed than I expected. You poor thing, having to scroll past those 10 posts. "Worthless"? Only "mildly funny"? Great way to alienate and marginalize the community that helped put you where you are. This thread is the equivalent of rubbing our noses in it to train us to your 'holier than thou' specifications. I knew this was coming down from above Jon and I feel sorry for him being stuck in the middle.
@hallmike concern about people who might be offended is lame. I'll accept that you are offended and I like the quality of your post.
@hallmike It's only on the product posts, which makes sense. When you have 10 "Meh, not Georgia red, crap, etc" between each post that is an actual comment, it makes it more difficut to have strings with dialog. (ie. why does this product suck) I don't like commenting in those posts right now because of the plethora if repeted spam comments that mean nothing.
@hallmike You would rather have @snapster just delete things and not explain why? I'm sure you wouldn't be angry about that at all...openness hurts feelings sometimes, just accept it for its intent: honesty and progress.
@hallmike IIRC, before the site launched, the default sort was by stars. It made it impossible to have a threaded conversation that we all wanted to have. The stars were probably supposed to be the community-sourced equivalent of "quality post." We have failed in our unstated duties.
@JerseyFrank You can still sort by votes, at least. And, that does keep the sub-thread intact. But, we're far more likely to star the funny shit and ignore the helpful stuff, so yeah, we're failing in that respect.
@dis_member No, explaining his reasons is fine, and if they were valid reasons I'd have no problem with deleting them. Look at those posts again - not one of them is offensive, off-color, or tasteless. They were deleted because they simply weren't funny enough or creative enough to meet the vacuous standards of a bloated ego on a power trip. Those 10 posts weren't harming anyone who knows how to use a scroll wheel. They weren't taking up an abundance of valuable server disk space. There is no good reason to delete them and it reeks of censorship. THAT is what I am opposed to.
@hallmike Those types of comments exist in the lower comments. The issue is that these worthless comments detract from the point of the price comment: helping people make informed decisions. Replies should be relevant to the comments.
Censorship? He showed exactly what he deleted. Its not like he said "some aholes posted stuff, it is gone now. deal with it." They clearly are trying to make the product page a more user-friendly place, and if people try to screw it up, they have an interest in stopping that.
Bloated ego on a power trip? He owns the f'ing website. His company, his rules--how is that a power trip? We are the mice. We get to run in the mazes. Sometimes we get an electric shock, sometimes we get to eat cheese. Sometimes we even get a vote on how something is done, but that doesn't make us the scientists. Your only choice is to stop running if you don't like how they experiment (but I hope you'll keep running!).
@dis_member AMEN! I love the sense of entitlement and outrage people come up with. Right or wrong it's his site...if it fails or succeeds due to this censorship it's on him.
@hallmike
agree disagree@snapster
However, I do think the price check comments are long overdue for moderation.
@nadroj Same here.
@Thumperchick I knew that was coming
Good point. Product thread should be more about community-sourced, helpful information about the product. Setting this expectation may have saved you from doing a technical solution. I shall resist the urge for a "first" post henceforth.
Completely alright with this. It is too bad community self-regulating doesn't work (bury brigades and group-think): this seems like it is going to be a lot of work.
I know some are concerned about a "slippery slope" but the fact that there is some openness about what is removed and why really makes me less concerned. Clearly the price check doesn't need random peoples' 2 cents regarding unrelated junk. Post in the comments, with worthwhile posts, otherwise:
If a tech solution is desired. How about two bot posts? One product info, one chatter. Heavily moderate the product post with just "moves" instead of deletes. That seems like a simple solution.
Alternate idea: a twitter(-esque?) chatter waterfall where we can commiserate about buying it or not, and most importantly, see our own names.
I find the order name image posts equally useless.
@JerseyFrank I think that would just cause more confusion, to be honest. People would constantly be posting in the wrong one and there would be constant cries of 'what happened to my post????'. If there was pagination, we could just have one super long kinda off-topic chatter thread, but that isn't feasible with the current setup. I have to agree that when you're trying to find relevant information about the deal, or people's thoughts on the deal, it can be a bit annoying to wade through screen after screen of one-line BS replies. I'm not really sure what the answer is, but as Meh is getting much bigger, they're going to have to figure something out.
@PurplePawprints What is a "Meh Lover" I just noticed that badge
@RedHot Right here. You too could be the owner of that lovely badge!
@JonT New badges? Different badges? Beaucoup work to implement them?
@JerseyFrank I like the order name image posts
@lisaviolet you'll note the emphasis on the temporariness of the badges, it changes a lot more than you'd think.
@JonT
@JonT You know I'm just teasin' ya, right?
@JonT do i have it? Id better have it!
@marklog yep. Ive got it.
One of the things missing in previous discussion and maybe not even strong enough here is that I'm only talking about holding the bar a little higher for the first X posts on a product launch.
I refrain from a set # because I'm not sure how many it is and I'd rather be dynamic about it. If the product is so worthless that nothing can be said, then who cares about the quality of the discussion that day. Furthermore, if the joke you have to make really feels funny/fresh enough to make in the first few comments then make it regardless of the product. If too many people do, we'll delete some.
@snapster Thanks for the clarifaction. I'm all for this as I do check the product thread to see if the item is something I want, need, or whatever. Some times I skip the thread when I see it's only 10 hours into the sale and there are hundreds of posts already. I'm not very tech savy and often count on the forum to enlighten me.
@snapster so, you're just enforceing the "don't be stupid" rule?
@snapster
Get rid of the "Meh's" and the "Baths" but leave all else intact.
@Cinoclav seems like a reasonable approach to me.
Please delete the irrelevant noise in the product thread. On the occasion when I am looking for valuable insights from fellow mehricans, wading through crap posts has been a PITA.
Please leave the other chat threads alone.
Thanks @Snapster. Have you considered categories? Imagine the New York Times just listing articles randomly with not categories, leaving the reader to evaluate every article's title. ShitPost category would be the best.
@er1c There already are, though they're incomplete - you can filter the forums at the top by Deals, Polls, and Videos. Adding a filter for Silly Shit might be helpful…
@brhfl Those are different types of postings, which is different between a category.
@er1c We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. A poll may technically be a different 'type', but I don't think that's particularly relevant. I doubt a video is technically a different 'type', it's just a post with a YouTube embed in it. For all practical purposes, they're categories of official meh posts - product announcements, their goofy videos, and then the polls. Additional filters for Other Official posts (like this one, @JonT's original post, the FAQ, etc.), as well as random shit that the users start would likely achieve a lot with little extra clutter. And I fail to see how some notion of 'type' vs. 'category' really changes that.
I love it, @Snapster. Thanks for the practical examples as guidelines.
Well....@snapster: 3 things:
@unixrab Yeah, that "Real Discussion" is going to be great. Endless Mehs, Baths, and drivel that doesn't help people who might be genuinely interested in a product. If you were really so oppressed, you wouldn't be here.
@BillLehecka enjoy your boring thread... ...the party will be at the parody thread
Also, I formally apologize for assuming @JonT was a part of this - Sorry @JonT. And Thank you for the clarifications on non-product pages that you put in the other thread.
You're still in the doghouse for the Neoprene Incident, and I know you're all broken up about that.
@unixrab nicely done..
It's always a balancing act. If the deleted posts stay, they annoy some people and discourage those people from joining the conversation. If they're deleted it annoys the people who want to post them. No matter what happens, someone will be pissed off.
With that in mind, it comes down to what the staff at mediocre believe will be the best approach to generate the content and create the site they want to achieve. They've chosen to moderate. I'm pretty sure this is to curb the growing habit of some people to detract from the point of a post (product thread) and attempt to get the conversation back on track. With the growth of the community, there is a need to focus some conversations so that new people aren't instantly overwhelmed and confused.
I have a strong suspicion that their hope is that we as a group will learn to stop posting useless information in the top of a product thread, at which time they can stop policing us for wiping snot on the wall. That's the part I think some of you are missing - they don't want to babysit us. They're telling us point blank what they want to see happen. If we choose to not follow that, then they're going to delete posts.
@Thumperchick <--Someone "gets it." Rules are not the end of fun, no matter what some say!
While I have no opinion on this, I just wanted to see my Heart Badge.
@BillLehecka Heart badge? How'd that happen? I've slept since then.
@lumpthar he took a bath in neoprene.
More info here:
https://meh.com/forum/topics/show-meh-the-love--february-video-event
@lumpthar yes... but with whom?
It's really simple- don't put stupid shit as replies under Mediocrebot's initial post in the product thread; however, if you are going to, it better damn well be hilarious and top-notch material.
You're not serious, about this; right? If I can't say what I want, when I want, to whomever I want, I won't be visiting Meh.com anymore. I don't tolerate things being deleted, unless it is truly offensive (or if I ask for it to be).
@TheCO2 News flash they usually don't delete something even if you ask… BTDT
@jont Probably a shitty week at work for you. It gets better.
@JerseyFrank Unless it doesn't. LOL. Sorry, couldn't resist.
@Pavlov I was looking for trendsetters to post suicide gifs. Delete your comment so I don't need to have @jont do it.
#TongueInCheek
@JerseyFrank I didn't want to push my luck . . . Once you're on the "previously censored" list it is simple human nature that they're going to look at ALL of your postings a little more critically overall - and I like getting away with the shit I post. No need to poke the bear.
Man, this place is turning into Amazon faster than I expected.
@phatmass I'm sure the exit strategy was formed before Matt came up with the name.
I'd have done the same - I'm not faulting him; just speculating.
I'm only guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that those that are most bothered by the moderating of post have never had to try to run an online community before.
I think those of us that have are much more sympathetic much like those that have waited tables in their past are usually better tippers.
(I am also 100% sure there are exceptions to the above statements)
@ilovereality wouldn't it be nice to have a community of members that only consist of members who run a community.
@phatmass ...feeling paranoid that my sarcasm filter isn't functioning correctly so I'll just say..... hmmmmm interesting concept. :)
@phatmass Yeah that is called a moderator's forum LOL. I run a yahoo list with close to 7000 people on it. Have about 25 or so moderated, banned 5… the rest are basically behaving. Of course yahoo groups are not a democracy and people are free to defect and create a new group (to which I tell them post the url on my group so like minded people can join them LOL). The only things I ban on that list is religion, politics (both of these usually end in flame wars), flaming, going way off topic of the purpose of the list, and selling anything, other than that what is related to the purpose of the list is pretty broad. Looks like meh forums aren't democracies either. That of course, is a two edged sword for a company. Too heavy handed moderation and they fall on their own sword. Let it be a free for all and it may or may not take a life of its own that is enough off topic for the company that it is a problem. Here I think one of the issues is that things appeared to start without much in the way of rules and now there are some. Always easier to start with rules and withdraw them than go the other way… that lesson has been learned the hard way by most parents out there and of course in this thread we are seeing a bit of the fall out from that approach too...
@Kidsandliz I did several years of moderating a forum of several thousand people and you are right that the private moderators forum was the one sane place most of the time :) I pretty much got burnt our in part due to the fact that i spent way too much of my time debating moderating decisions with 3 or 4 users that seemed to feed off of making my life difficult. I ended up making up a blog and not allowing comments. Made my life much easier and I still got to express my opinions to those that cared to read them.
@ilovereality That is primarily how I have 25 people moderated on my list. They can't behave even with repeated warnings. There also is no rule that you have to respond to people behaving like idiots or trying to pick a fight. I also once shut the list off for 3 days due to a flame war that was happening in the middle of me being sick from chemo. Hah! When I turned it back on people were much better behaved. I also moderated the instigators and those with biting ankles while having lockjaw. I do agree though that after a while it can be a pain. I have run that stupid list for going on about 10 or 12 years. Way too long considering I stated it as a favor for a friend who asked me to as she felt her doing it was a conflict of interest.
@Kidsandliz @ilovereality In my experience, moderator forums turned into a place the moderators went to complain about the members. I actually made my moderator forums transparent to the community to prevent this.
@snapster maybe follow the lead of "Tablet" magazine in Israel: To leave a comment you have to pay a fee
http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2015/2/9/8007483/tablet-magazine-comments
Maybe only VMPs can leave comments? (Sorry @unixrab)
@Sarahsda you're good. fuhgeddaboutit :-)
@Sarahsda I wasn't sure about this but then I can to the end of your comment and I LIKE!
@Foxborn sweet talker
I actually came up with a solution that worked in my community. I have a specific forum called "The Lame Board". Members are encouraged to be stupid there, and not be stupid on the regular boards. Occasionally, a post will have to be moved into the lame board, but for the most part, it works. Non-stupid members are happy that the stupid stuff is mostly limited to that board, and the stupid members don't throw a fit for getting posts deleted.
"Deleted post log 2-9-2015"
this date.
I think (and I could be way off base here) @snapster is caught in that dilemma where a rich community causes brand loyalty, something that increases sales since ya gotta go to the store to begin with to buy and ya gotta go daily with daily deals… so he is getting us to the store with meh faces (although that may have started out as trying to see what we thought about products they chose and the group turned it into a meh streak competition - having different faces there every night probably helped that morph), building an online community, adding assorted stunts to pull us back daily or nearly so until we come back of our own accord… and the other side of this which is that people are pesky little things who tend to try to mold things to meet their needs and not that of the company - take that away and they won't come as often if at all.
Clearly he has a vision of how he wants those pesky little sources of dollars and brand loyalty to behave (eg has a vision of the culture he wants in the community and some of the content) and some of the humans were being stubborn little things and refusing to cooperate with the previously unarticulated to the masses desire. But he has that piss off a pesky human too much problem where they bitch all over kingdom come which creates problems for the build customer base that comes back on a fairly regular basis… so yah gotta be careful how you piss off those dollar sources trying to enact your vision - a vision that relies on some only marginally controllable variables.
Now likely they have run the stats of posting stuff he'd rather not have against purchases by posters and perhaps (speculating here) concluded that, on average, the bulk of the source of the comments he'd rather not have are also not correlated with being sources of lots of dollars, and even perhaps no dollars, for his empire… thus those may be customers the king doesn't care if he loses… (hum I'd likely fall into that category of low yield customer myself, guess what I won't matter much LOL). The problem, of course, is that some of his higher volume customers are annoyed because this community has developed a life and culture of its own… (the old herding cats problem) that did not include censorship whether or not they were annoyed with comments like meh, meh no pagination, meh no georgia red, I love purple and unirab trolling...
He did bring some of this on himself though with his choice of name… if it had been Tiffany Two and merchandise to match I'd imagine we'd be a bit more high brow. And also by trying to lower expectations for fast shipping, fast customer service, quality goods… that also set a culture for the community and we obliged, having fun with it...hmm but he wants a quality community by his definition. Oops. That wasn't in the rule book the customers saw initially so now an uphill battle against the current forum community developed norms.
At least it isn't being moderated (oh wait, "at least" is a term used trying point out this is the lesser of two evils) like the local TV stations around here are when they moderate their comment section. If they don't agree with your point of view on the story they remove the comment such that the comment section is pretty one sided and in line with the media's, oh wait, the locally powerful around here point of view. Nope no freedom of speech or freedom of point of view in the local media here. Ironic.
Culture is such a tricky thing to manage…those pesky little humans give blow back and trudge on with what they want because it meets some need of theirs, needs that may or may not be on the company's agenda… unless they are too brow beaten by punishments so leave or the rewards are high enough to drive them to change... Be interesting to see what develops with any intended or unintended consequences of this latest chess move. Hope its not a Carly/HP culture rerun. That was an unintended consequence epic disaster.
@Kidsandliz Good point about the abrupt culture change. Everything to this point was enforcing how meh and mediocre things are around here. We've been told to set our sights low for so long that this 180 turn to force us to produce quality posts came as a shock. Censorship and quality requirements are the antithesis of the culture they themselves worked so hard to develop.
Hmm I take it the
"CODENAME: FRISCH
Can we rank product news & deals looking
at what the community does rather than requiring up-votes?"
experiment failed if no more meh (and equivalent) comments allowed in the product threads (for example, perhaps those kinds of comments have no correlation with sales and so you don't want the meh name used in vain… or…???)?