Are they removing or changing Stone Mountain carving?
0I’m having a very hard time reading today bc I got my Botox done for my eyes yesterday (which I posted about when someone asked about Botox). But I was wondering if someone could help me out and answer my question. Maybe you live in the area and know more info about it or are more up in the news than I am. I know it’s a very controversial topic and I’m denying that or supporting the whole white supremacy thing. I visited Stone Mountain about 5-6 years ago and thought it was so cool bc of the how big the mural itself was and how detail it was (it could have been of big bird and I still would have been impressed). It’s not the mural itself that I like but how someone took the time and dedication to do something that big on the side of a mountain. And for that I would like to visit again before something is changed. The park itself is also very nice and has many other attraction too. I’m also a firm believer that some things shouldn’t be removed from history no matter what they represent bc of the history they represent themself ( if I’m saying that right). It’s like your trying to erase history and say that it never existed. Good or bad they are still a part of history. But that’s another topic. Anyways does anybody know what the plans are for the mural in Stone Mountain? This is not endorsed by a white supremacist or a member of the kkk. (Weird fact I live Oakland county, MI and home of the kkk used to be in Holly a few towns over. I don’t think they have a big presence there anymore but I don’t know bc I don’t go to Holly much or know anybody from the kkk or that supports White supremacy. My hairdresser lives there and says it’s not as bad as it used to be but she’s very young too).
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I knew nothing about it; I just read some articles and it sounds like they haven’t decided exactly what to do, but they’re excluding the image of the carving in a new logo for the park. Also:
Sounds like the carving is going to remain as is, for now.
@Kyeh
Thanks
No one wants to erase history. We want to view it properly. Slave owners were racists and fought a war to retain ownership of other human beings. They do not belong on pedestals or the side of a mountain being honored for their racism.
Would you be OK with parks honoring Saddam Hussein or Hitler? Of course not! We need to put these monstrous ideologies where they belong: in history books as a lesson about evil.
@callow In no way am I condoning slavery, it was horrible and extremely wrong, but if we took down statues of every slave owner, there would be statues coming down all over the place including George Washington’s. Or is the criteria that they went to war over it? I’m not trying to start anything, or argue. I sincerely want to know why some people are vilified and some are given a pass.
@callow I guess you don’t like the Christian Holy Bible, Slavery is all over the place in it.
Slavery has been going on for 1000s of years. It is still present even here in the USA. Sadly the US was built due to slavery.
In fact the entire North American land mass had people here for 10,000 years before the British, Spanish or other European came over here. Yes the US was Stolen from the Native people that was living here.
It will cont. long after we are gone!
No it is NOT right!
BUT because you don’t like a certain statue, you don’t have to look at it, or go to the place that it is.
FYI the 1619 project is a Joke/ Lie as that only notes when the British brought over slaves. Remember the Spanish was here before the British and they had slaves in the late 1500’s.
@mehbee If you want to keep the leaders of the southern troops in places of honor then you are condoning slavery. The only place they belong is in a history book.
@mycya4me Personally, I don’t like the bible for many reasons.
Stone mountain and the other statues are owned by the government of the US or one of it’s states and should not be honoring those who fought against this country.
If you want a statue in your yard, go for it!
@callow @mycya4me
But you are erasing history when you take down all these statues. Take Pluto for instance, it was a planet until 2007 when someone decided it wasn’t. So then every text book was reprinted to exclude it. You think that shit won’t happen with this shit? If everybody got their way there would be nothing but blank concert to look at. Like somebody else said if you don’t like it don’t look.
I didn’t create this post to be controversial, I did it to get a question answered and I made sure to point that that out. You are obviously very passionate about the subject but sometimes that can blind you and make you focus in on the wrong thing. I know it’s happen to me before.
@callow @mycya4me And before the Spanish or Europeans, the native Indians were killing and taking many men, women and children slaves from other tribes.
It has gone on for all of history. Thank God we live in a time that has ended most all slavery.
@callow @mycya4me I don’t like the bible either. I’d hate to live like it actually preaches.
@callow @mycya4me @Tripod2 That’s interesting. What teachings in it do you have a problem with? Or do you mean “I’d hate to live how most supposed Christians act?”
@callow It is so Sad that a piece of stone can trigger you…
So if you want to put all the other statues that you like, But other don’t in your yard!
Just because I am not into erasing history, That don’t mean that I support it! I hate Double Standards.
I guess that you enjoy living on Stolen Land!
@callow @mycya4me @Star2236 ah yes, that time when pluto stopped existing entirely because scientific fact removed it as a planet.
@daveinwarsh
"Thank God we live in a time that has ended most all slavery. "
actually by most estimates there are more people living in some form of Bondage/Slavery TODAY, than there were During the great Atlantic Slave Trade.
@mycya4me
“Sadly the US was built due to slavery.”
Fact.
But, we’re not alone in that regard.
So was Australia.
They Just Didn’t call them slaves.
They Called the Island a “Penal Colony” and sent a bunch of “Condemned Prisoners” down under to build their new Colony.
Honestly… England Claimed the Australian continent, then Realized they needed A LOT of free labor to build their new Colony.
Suddenly all sorts of formerly “minor” crimes,(misdemeanors, etc) were elevated to life sentences, and they shipped you off to AUS, to work in labor camps building most of the early buildings and original infrastructure of Australia.
so when we Joke that Aussie’s are Descended from Criminals, we’re wrong.
They are Descendants of those Enslaved by the British Crown.
Asshole
@pmarin
.
@pmarin FTFY ^^^
Regarding “history erasure”:
Someone please tell me where all the statues and monuments honoring the lives of the of all the individuals who were enslaved or otherwise legally oppressed have been moved to?
At what warehouse or history dump site are these “erased” statues and monuments kept?
Hmmm. Now how was it that somehow all those people’s lives and their history got erased or not publicly honored?
Gosh, some short-sighted interest groups must have removed all those statures/monuments of the enslaved and oppressed from their public places of honor … Right?
Because there’s no other way it could could it have happened that that enslaved persons haven’t have all those public statues and monuments in great public places … Right?
There’s no other way [than by having their statues/monuments removed] that the personal histories or sufferings of enslaved or legally oppressed persons could have been systematically erased … Right?
@f00l And one could also point out that most of those “historical” statues were erected in the 20th Century. The Stone Mountain carving was completed in 1972.
@rockblossom
Ive been told that “Confederate heros” type monuments were frequently erected during the Jim Crow era, in support of Jim Crow type laws and policies.
https://www.history.com/topics/early-20th-century-us/jim-crow-laws
Jim Crow laws were in effect locally (Texas) until the mid-1960’s, to the best of my memory. But I was a child and unaware of the details.
I think the heyday of these type monuments being erected was roughly 1880-1940. But I’ve never studied the history so could have totally the wrong idea.
Has anyone stopped to think for a moment that aside from being racists (common for the majority of our population for most of our history), slave owners (legal here at the time, for all that it was condemned by many), and overall assholes by modern standards (also so common as to be the standard of the day), they were also traitors who waged war on the rest of the nation? For that alone, this monument merits being scoured back off of the face of the mountain, and the figures’ names relegated to the halls of shame in the history books.
@werehatrack I have a hard time with the argument that confederate secession was itself a traitorous act.
One of the reasons that Jefferson Davis, former President of the Confederate States of America was not prosecuted is that there was legitimate concern that his defense would make a persuasive argument that secession was legal and not unconstitutional.
In Texas v. White in 1869 the Supreme Court held that states could not unilaterally secede from the Union, but this decision
a) post-dated the Civil War and
b) is based upon the use of the term “perpetual” in the Articles of Confederation.
After discussing this with some legal scholars, I have come to understand that referencing the Articles of Confederation after the establishment of the Constitutional government a decade later is absolutely legit. But this is not obvious. It’s actually pretty subtle, in my opinion, which is probably why Texas v. White made it to the Supreme Court at all.
Factor in the prevailing norm at the time (across the entire U.S.) that loyalty was first to one’s state, then to the country, and you have a whole lot of people siding with their newly-seceded states. And these states could legitimately argue that they had the legal right to secede.
If it happened today it would clearly be traitorous. We have established that states cannot unilaterally secede. This was not clear at all leading up to 1861.
All that said, I’ll clarify that I do not support glorifying the Confederate cause.
@Limewater
Constitutionally, these specific persons took an active part in waging war against the nation. Either they were still US citizens and thereby traitors, or they were declared enemies and non-citizens waging war upon the nation, in which case they deserved no quarter. Either way, they merit no recognition as anything except sworn enemies. And in the aftermath of the assassination of Lincoln, we got stuck with Johnson - whose handling of the entire situation, ending with the amnesty (which did not absolve Davis of guilt, but by legal precepts confirmed it when he accepted the declaration) did not endear him to much of anyone. Davis was in fact charged with treason, and accepted guilt as a traitor in fact; whether he could have been convicted is a moot point.
@Limewater @werehatrack
???
They attempted the argument. It failed in practice, so to speak.
(that argument is one of those that got settled on the field of battle)
@werehatrack
A fair number belong as portions of my ancestral family branches. So, I’m aware of that.
@f00l @Limewater
It also got settled in court formally in 1869 when Texas got frisky.
@Limewater @werehatrack
Yeah, heros everywhere 'round here.
@f00l @werehatrack I don’t know if that’s a fair characterization. Texas won that lawsuit. On the issue of the bonds in question, Texas wanted to have not seceded.
Just something to think about … the early Christians, went into Rome, chopped the heads off all the statues and destroyed all the temples erected to Roman gods.
Do you believe they were right in doing that? If you have been there, did you feel satisfied seeing partial statues, destroyed buildings? Did you ever wonder what the area looked like before the destruction?
There are historically accurate, reasonable, less destructive ways to preserve and learn from history.
@lauramalter When seeing the collection of Roman male statues at the Vatican museum, my wife was most disturbed that their stone penises has been broken off and replaced by fig leaves.
@lauramalter
To me, your argument is a strawman-type thing.
I don’t have anything against the notion that these monuments belong in a setting where they can be given full historical context. (esp including all the details and stories that got left out of the monument info on its original site.)
When we leave these in place with no additional context, or with inadequate context, we are taking no action against the original corruption and erasure of history that their placement represents.
Everyone knows that history was only made by white men on horses. Women and minorities never had any history (or apparently, horses) so they have no statues.
I would be content with removing the people and leaving the horses, both as statues and carvings. That would leave an aesthetically pleasing statue in the town square, while thoroughly confusing any future alien race that visits after we have driven ourselves to extinction.
@rockblossom This is a brilliant idea!
@callow @rockblossom and don’t forget cats.
@callow @pmarin A horse-sized cat statue? I would pitch in money to build that in the town square.
@callow @pmarin @rockblossom
@callow @pmarin @rockblossom @werehatrack
Lucerne, Switzerland
@werehatrack
Stuff like that meme almost makes it worth trudging through the raw sewage that is most of the interwebs!
@rockblossom I love your two paragraphs.
You also need to be reminded of other great people groups, example those that were native to the North American continent as they had been here somewhere around 10,000 years before Europeans showed up.