What about the broken glass of Chop, Antifa, BLM? What about statues pulled down or desecrated without public permission and churches burned? What about Nancy Pelosi’s response: <shrug>. “People will be people.” I’m not a proud boy, I’m old woman now. I urge my fellow readers to look carefully —to weigh the evidence and motivations carefully.
And none if them were invited to their acts of destruction by one of the highest government officeholders.
And these BLM protestors were responding to unjustifiable deaths of people of color at the hands of police.
As long as we’re intellectually low enough to do questionable comparisons of the “but what about” type:
what about unjustifiable police violence toward people of color?
That violence has only been going in for 400+ years at a minimum. Don’t you think it ought to stop?
What about that? Huh?
Shall we do some more phony “what about” alleged rebuttal posts between events that do not compare at all, or can we stop that sort of garbage conversation now?
And stop with automatic “antifa” mentions.
Almost the right wing conversation about antifa is nothing more than rumor and propaganda. Antifa has become a fav blame target for all sorts of sins for which there is exactly zero evidence.
Please be careful where you get your news. Or your “news”.
Many so-called “news sources”, esp those which purport to be right-wing or conservative, are nothing more than straight propaganda.
They use every technique ever prefected by Stalinists.
The “propaganda” label applies accurately to the talk shows on the Fox News Channel.
Chris Wallace is a straight news source. Much of the rest of Fox is just a garbage pit.
At least when an MSNBC, CNN, PBS/NPR, major broadcast network, talking head opines a pov about something, they start from facts. They don’t push rumor as being equivalent to fact.
If their print output is more reliable, I might try their app.
I can’t now remember where I read this accounting of a dinner conversation between Rupert Murdoch and several hard right Republican Congress people
But the gist of it was that he was asking them why they went along with certain policies he doesn’t like
And one of these Congress people responded by asking him if he even watched his own network
Because if these Congresspeople went against what the talk shows on his network advocated on these topics, they’d be primaried by some alt-right political ambitious sort.
And Rupert Murdoch just sighed and said something to the effect of: that’s the way Fox News is going right now: it’s got momentum and I don’t manage it day to day
Wait… @Pam, are you seriously saying that liberal groups are the ones who burn churches???
Methinks you’re the one who needs to read history again. And start questioning the ‘news’ sources you currently are believing. (And I honestly say all that without malice.)
@haydesigner
Yes, that’s what I thought. Liberal groups burned churches, court houses, Philadelphia, Seattle, Minneapolis. Who were the real culprits? Sincere thanks!
@f00l
Winning a discussion means advancing understanding. Our goal is to understand one another. Many very good people hold divergent thoughts. How in the world could that/did that happen?
Thank you for ignoring the substance of what I said.
I guess you didn’t wish to respond to it.
does that mean you don’t have a response? I’ll leave that particular problem in your custody
As for person’s holding divergent opinions and having different thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, and points of view: of course we do.
Our brains are built that way. it’s inevitable in the biology from the ground up, not to mention inevitable in our society
Part of the point of discussion is to exchange these ideas and hopefully to move forward our own understandings of each other and of our own positions and of the issue at hand
I’ll point out the obvious here
in order to accomplish any of that:
moving forward one’s or another’s or many person’s understanding(s), it helps to have to have a quality discussion.
I agree with a lot of what others have said, including that “antifa!” is just the fallback, right wing, bullshit red herring. But as someone who is a BLM activist, I agree, we should be asking “what about BLM?”
For context, I’ve been involved in numerous events in defense of Black lives (and in some instances, helped plan and organize); we’re somewhat active around several issues, but the defense of Black lives, especially from violent and murderous cops, is our priority. My wife and I participated in a few of the events near the beginning of the pandemic that FOX and others falsely accused of being riots. Here’s what I know, primarily from direct experience, with a few details based on my wife’s testimony and further substantiated by testimony of people I literally trust with my life (and certainly far more than most of the community here, even though I love some of you dearly).
Specifically as pertains to “broken glass”. It’s funny you bring that up. Four years ago, in response to the beginning of the Great Embarrassment, we participated in several consecutive nights of protest, led by a broad coalition of local organizations, but prominently featuring Black Lives organizers. Turnout was significant, including folks who self-identified as antifa (whose worst actions were running into traffic when the rest of us were trying to stay on the sidewalk) and a shit ton of people I hadn’t seen in the streets before and haven’t seen since. One straggler–not associated with any of the established organizations (again, there were a lot of people out who don’t usually feel it necessary to protest)–thought it might be cool to break a window. I forget, but he may also have been inebriated. Anyway, he did. The individual was rebuked immediately. One of our leaders reached out to the business owner even before the march was finished. When we reached our endpoint, this same leader specifically brought everyone’s attention to the incident, making it clear that this isn’t what we’re about and that it wouldn’t be tolerated (no one was called out by name; apparently the individual was remorseful; the leader said he understood that emotions were running high). We took up a collection on the spot–seeded by this leader. The window was taken care of within the next couple of days.
As a rule, our local leaders operate in accordance with the principles and methods of Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.–which is to say, peaceful and nonviolent.
Our organizations (by which I mean organizations focused on Black and Brown lives) and especially our organizers are under a microscope. If any of them so much as hint at approving of violence or destruction, it gets blown way the hell up. We do not condone violence or property destruction; those actions are certainly not a tactic we deploy.
Even though there is a core of activists who always or often show up, we are accustomed to newcomers–especially in the era of Trump. No one, least of all our leaders, regular organizers or faithful activists wants any of those folks to be injured or to have an otherwise unpleasant or criminal experience.
Most of our events are family friendly. Many of our leaders and regulars bring their young children. We absolutely don’t want our children to be injured, endangered or involved in criminal activity.
Perhaps without exception, the Black parents in our organizing community have given (having received it themselves as children) “The Talk” (if you don’t know what that is, as a responsible citizen, you need to learn). Among the essential elements encouraged in the talk: unambiguous compliance, deferential politeness, going to great lengths to minimize the appearance that you might be armed or a threat. Notably, the reason for the talk is avoiding injury, arrest and death; and the talk is unequivocally necessary, because Black children are targeted, abused and murdered by the police. Granted that protesters are protesting and will say some defiant things, the spirit of the talk informs the actions of Black protesters (especially in the presence of police; and the police are typically present in full force).
I have routinely seen the media attribute criminal activity to BLM protesters that occurred hours, sometimes days after any actual organized event.
As you should know (if you don’t, you haven’t been paying attention), BLM activists have been greeted dramatically differently when they protested at the Capitol. They’re met with armed National Guard and strictly enforced barriers.
Let’s not forget that the President deployed force to actively remove peaceful protesters for no other reason but that his vile ass could awkwardly hold a Bible and pose for a photo opp.
Peaceful (hell, contained and stationary) actions I’ve been involved in in the metroplex are routinely confronted by heavily armed and armored police with their lights flashing, racing through the streets (risking bystanders) in a show of force.
I’ve been teargassed while peacefully protesting on behalf of Black lives. Police were also present in armored vehicles and deployed flashbangs at the same event.
Without exception, violence and the threat of violence has been instigated by police at the actions I’ve participated in.
I’ve been literally pushed around by cops, at their chief’s direction, for the “crime” of being present at a police oversight meeting and presuming a right (actually guaranteed even under Texas law) to speak.
My wife was involved in an event under COVID in which she and other peaceful, socially-distanced protesters were kettled (again, look it the fuck up), tightly corralled, zip-tied and retained for hours, having been lied to and led onto a bridge by state and local law enforcement. My wife was zip-tied so aggressively that she sustained nerve damage (confirmed by her primary care physician); she was ignored and mocked when she questioned how tight the straps were.
BLM protesters get pushed back and run over by armed and armored cops with shields. BLM protesters, as a rule, don’t storm anything, let alone the seat of our national government. I guarantee you that Black People and BLM activists would have been gunned down had they even hinted at any of that entitled, arrogant, violent bullshit that those racists pulled last week. They certainly wouldn’t have been aided and abetted by the pigs.
What about BLM? The attempted insurrection last week illustrated how much more white lives matter in this country and, by contrast how little we care about Black lives.
So what are you doing about Black lives and a system that’s effectively engineered to oppress, exploit and prematurely end them?
Don’t fucking lecture me. Look at your damned self.
I certainly don’t believe destruction during protest is okay. I’m profoundly sorry that there were have been some incidences of destruction during black lives matter protests.
I’m even more sorry that so many people of color have been victims of excess violence from police forces and other law enforcement
I’m even more sorry that during many of these incidences of excess violence by law enforcement against people of color some of the people of color have either died or been permanently disabled in a significant way
I am unaware of any black lives matter protesters intending, according to statements caught on tape at the time, to execute the vice president and or the speaker of the House as traitors
I am unaware of any instances of black lives matter protesters using flagpoles (on which was hung the American flag at that moment) as weapons with which to beat up cops
I am unaware of any members of Black lives matter using flagpoles on which American flags were currently hung as weapons with which to bash indoors brake glass and commit other destruction.
I’m unaware of any instances during which black lives matter protesters were encouraged by our chief of state to occupy or attack a seat of government and the leaders of the legislative branch of government.
I guess I’m running short of points of valid comparison
@Pam In the midst of everything else, I neglected to include a key point:
we talk, before, during and after an action (for the various reasons I mentioned, and others) about nonviolence, safety, and the need to avoid property damage.
@f00l
Not too long ago we were told that news and advertisements were going to be increasingly selected for our interests. As a result, each of us rec’d more and more stuff that felt in harmony with our beliefs and desires. We were largely unaware that the next person might be getting a wholly different set of news items. We get surprised when our neighbor has come to tremendously divergent conclusions.
The result is that our population has been segmented according to what we read and believe. And what is right? How do we know?
The Capitol invaders were probably mostly middle America who read and believe that our country is being overtaken by people who will transform our country into something we’ll all (eventually) regret. Further, they read and believe that there are corrupted politicians in power who will bend their knee to a totalitarian global governance.
So, f00l and Fuzzalini, et al, I’m not going to go into depth about what I read and believe. I choose to read Meh; we have much in common! But, we have generational divides; educational divides (how we were taught in the 50s and 60s in our schools was very different than what is taught today), and news divides. May America become better and better over the coming years!
@Pam We ought to be excited that you broke away from watching FAUX News and drinking the tRump koolaid to honor us with your very insightful but totally wrong and misguided comments on what happen. We won’t be disappointed if you leave again and if we never hear from you again. We don’t miss “Only One Truth”.
Not too long ago we were told that news and advertisements were going to be increasingly selected for our interests. As a result, each of us rec’d more and more stuff that felt in harmony with our beliefs and desires. We were largely unaware that the next person might be getting a wholly different set of news items. We get surprised when our neighbor has come to tremendously divergent conclusions.
The result is that our population has been segmented according to what we read and believe. And what is right? How do we know?
Many of us have been aware of this segmentation and echo chambering for well over a decade. It’s come up in conversations within my non-techie family, whose politics range all over the place, and whose education levels do also.
(I don’t believe education correlates that well with intelligence;
Sometimes education correlates with breadth of exposure to alternative POVs. And sometimes not.)
I’m lucky to have a family in which we seem to all be able to have serious, respectful, thoughtful conversations with each other, across large ideological divides.
We work at not using the rhetorical crap and techniques that seem to pass for political debate methods in some less favored areas of the internet.
We work at listening carefully and with empathy.
We work at being openinded and willing to reconsider.
We won’t be disappointed if you leave again and if we never hear from you again.
No, I think Pam’s comments are sincere and respectful, unlike our former sparring partner - I do value hearing from people who hold different opinions if they can explain them thoughtfully.
@Kyeh@Pam Granted Pam’s comments were not as out there as others who have posted here, but they lack as most Trump’s supporters do a total disregard for the facts and the issues at hand. Being able to explain their position calmly unsupported by any facts is equally objectionable to me.
@Felton10@Kyeh
My facts originate in the books “None Dare Call it Treason” and then a booklet “None Dare Call it Conspiracy” by Gary Allen—read back in 1970. Then Carroll Quigley’s (Georgetown U) lectures and book. Then lectures at Berkeley by Aldous Huxley (online). Revelation in the Bible. The current proclamations of the World Economic Forum, Agenda 21 and 30. I tend to appreciate news sources that sort of line up with my prior reading.
There are historians—such as my brother—who draw somewhat different conclusions than I do.
For me, it’s like a huge jig saw puzzle. Where does this piece go?
I tend to appreciate news sources that sort of line up with my prior reading.
The trouble with that is that the result would likely mean a lack of broad diversity in point of view with what you read. That would be like putting the puzzle together when you are color blind. Much harder.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh
Fair enough. I observe as much as I can. I know that an error in the premise guarantees an error in the conclusion. I’ve read a great deal of assorted books over many years. I do the best I can, and I KNOW I’m not infallible. What I think I see is this: We are headed into global governance. A take down of the USA is coming so that we will be equal to all other countries (Agenda 21). Trump is hated by the globalist elite who want to move us away from nationalism. Trump and Trump supporters want America first (nationalist). Nationalism probably will not prevail. Trump is Brexit to Biden’s EU. That’s what I see. Top down government with some local freedom within guidelines. I hope all will be well for everyone.
Top down government with some local freedom within guidelines.
President Trump’s actions indicate that top-down government with some local freedom within guidelines has been his agenda the whole time. He has repeatedly sought to expand his authority and executive power as President. He has attempted to increase his own power as President at the expense of other branches of federal government and state and local government.
Trump is Nationalism, sure. He is also Authoritarianism.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh
You’d have to read it for yourself. Don’t depend on others to think for you. “Read this.” “Don’t read that.” None Dare Call it Treason suggests that there has been Communist infiltration. None Dare Call it Conspiracy suggests that the Communists in NDCIT actually are a global elite with a plan. It’s worth considering. HG Wells talks about the plan in several of his nonfiction books. Cecil Rhodes talked about it. Put that idea on a spectrum of possibilities. Don’t be binary: T or F. Rather, why not think , “Hmmm, not likely but I’ll keep it in mind as a possibility.” Then look around you and see if it might fit.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Pam I understand you believe what you have read, but respectfully your conclusion is a bunch of crap. Your initial comments about ANTIFA and BLM proves you have been brainwashed by Fox and Trump. Trump cares nothing about the you, the United States, nor democracy. He is willing to blow up everything the US has had in place for over 200 years for his own selfish motive-to remain in power like Putin and Kim Jung Un and every other dictator he wants to be like. He deserves to be impeached, convicted and thrown in jail.
They say he is surprised by the business backlash-people fleeing from any association with him. That would be the ultimate form of retribution and punishment for him-the total take down and destruction of the Trump brand due to his actions.
I don’t know how to defend Trump here. He may not be as wonderful as we’d like, but he said he wanted to make America great. Have you read Trump’s The Art of the Deal? He seems to like America—NYCity particularly. NAFTA was a highly suspicious treaty. You might not remember Ross Perot who told us that NAFTA would take away our jobs. NAFTA was a valuable piece of globalism that Trump hopefully took down. (Some people say he replaced NAFTA with worse, and I didn’t ck it out.). NAFTA not only took away jobs in the USA, but NAFTA being a treaty overruled our US laws. Trump is for America First. Biden said he is not for America first. We’re being taught that nationalism is a dirty word. Maybe so. Back in my day (LOL), we were taught nationalism. We stood for the pledge of allegiance every day. Now, I understand from a middle school history teacher, our founding fathers are not to be taught. That was in 2008. I noticed when my daughter was in college she brought home a book entitled Your Place in a Global Society. Education has changed. My children say that it is their turn to lead. We old folks need to step aside. <sigh>. Just know what you’re getting.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh
Felton, I cannot know how much I have been brainwashed. Let me mention another book that I stumbled upon in a psych class in the mid 90s. It was written by Dr Sidney Jourard—“The Father of Self-Disclosure.” He was an experimental psych professor at the University of FL. He was known for his relaxed and caring approach toward counseling. However, in his last book—I can’t find it on my bookshelves—the titles of all his books are similar—but his very last book he warns that entities are paying for experimentation to learn how to control the masses—the opposite of what Jourard ever wanted to do—and the answer was KEEP THEM MYSTIFIED and STUPIFIED. I tease my husband, “Are we mystified and stupified yet?” God bless everyone!!
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam Saying he wanted “to make America great” is not the same as doing it. All of his actions over the past 4 years show his main goal was to make him and his cronies great and rich-the United States be damned.
No I have not and will not read the Art of the Deal. The man who co-wrote the book with him Tony Schwartz has been on TV many times (probably not on Fox-that is why you missed him) to tell everything about the real Donald Trump and the lies he was selling.
Maybe if you would get out more you might discover the real truth about Trump and what a cancer he has been to America.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Limewater@Pam Pam - I’m amused that you’re telling us, essentially, not to jump to conclusions, yet you seem to assume that we’re all a bunch of naive young things! I regret to inform you that we’re not.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater
Limewater, Trump has not had the support of media nor the support of much of Congress or of many Americans. Before he even took office he was branded “incompetent.” I suspect that the intense disapproval of Trump caused him to act alone. The fence at the border? Biden wants open borders. The Council on Foreign Relations is all for open borders. According to the CFR, it would be good to have multi-country regions where there will be free movement of people and goods across US borders. And that may be a great idea. It’s just very different from the old days when immigrants were permitted or not. I must be careful to not be too reactionary.
Some folks from England told me of their disillusionment with the EU. Huge money left England, and they took orders from the EU. Maybe that’s good?
The problem with believing his book and his advice, etc. is that he routinely stiffs his contractors, has his businesses declare bankruptcy, lost legal battles over his “university” that defrauded students, etc. As a result if he is taking his own advice perhaps it isn’t good advice. If it was good advice he wouldn’t need to do that to try to stay financially solvent.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater
I feel like an interloper on Meh because it has such a young vibe. I DiD jump to conclusions. I apologize for assuming there is no one as old as me here! LOL
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam The reason we are all chatting and responding is that we are all old farts and have nothing better to do. BTW just for your frame of reference so you won’t feel out of place, I am 74, still working part-time and have been married 49 years, two children in their 40’s and have a 25 year old parrot. What does that qualify me as?
I’m generally happy to let people think I’m young if they want to, but I thought it was kind of funny that you assumed we’re all kids.
I do believe that keeping on learning and letting one’s beliefs evolve does help one stay mentally young (not the same as naive)!
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam As long as I don’t walk by to many mirrors, I think I am young. At least going to numerous doctors on an ongoing basis, keeps me active.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater
Felton, thank you. My husband and I will turn 70 later this year, and it really doesn’t feel old, does it? We’ve been married for 45 years come July. Four children — four grandchildren. And I didn’t know there’s be such a vibrant message board in meh. : )
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Limewater@Pam I’ve read around a bit in the Casemates political thread, and it struck me as much more “adult” in tone, but not as lively or interesting as the ones on Meh. These can get rude and crude at times but I prefer them.
Btw, I found the title of Sidney M. Jourard’s book that warns us of the mystifying-stupefying technique for control of masses: Disclosing Man to Himself. Just in case someone might be interested. It was published in early 1990s.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Limewater@Pam Just curious - you’ve evidently been a member for a long time, but never joined the forums before? What drew you in? I was hesitant for a while, but liked a lot of the humor and interesting topics, and while I’ve never joined Facebook or Twitter, I started hanging out in this forum because it just has a neat mixture of silliness and seriousness. Some topics don’t interest me at all, but I’ve also learned things I would never have known otherwise. One caution, though - it’s a serious time sink!
I’ve often looked at the message board and never thought to join in.
Shwarzenegger’s speech inspired me to say something.
The rioters at the Capitol did not have a Nazi mindset. They had a nationalist mindset. Soon nationalist and Nazi may become synonymous. If “nationalist” becomes a dirty word, where are we to go? Globalist, of course.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam My wife pointed out to me that I mentioned our parrot but failed to mention that we had one granddaughter. Before she hit me, I said the only reason for the omission was the Walter lives with us, but our granddaughter is 1,000 miles away.
But the non-deranged bulk of the multitude were certainly not Nazis. They were citizens who passionately support America First and a president who SEEMED to care about them. They were citizens who were concerned about the validity of the election. So concerned they were that they spent time and money to congregate in the freezing cold to let Trump know they were behind him.
Did our country deserve such support? Yes. Did Trump deserve such support? It doesn’t look like it.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam There you go again parroting (excuse the reference to parrots)
the lies and misinformation that Fox News is spewing.
But the non-deranged bulk of the multitude were certainly not Nazis. (They were-take my word for it-I know anti-semetic POS when I see them because I am Jewish) They were citizens who passionately support America First and a president who SEEMED to care about them. (They were people looking to cause trouble and Trump only cares about himself-never anyone else) They were citizens who were concerned about the validity of the election. (More Trump BS-more than 60 courts wouldn’t even hear the cases of election fraud as there was no evidence-but these idiots believed what Trump said just on his say so) So concerned they were that they spent time and money to congregate in the freezing cold to let Trump know they were behind him.(That shows how deranged and stupid they were) Hope you were not one of them.
Well, do you agree that Trump is NOT anti-Semitic? His primary donor was Jewish. He moved the capital of Israel to Jerusalem. Ivanka and Jared are Jewish. He’s on the King Cyrus coin. However, you feel that all his supporters ARE anti-Semitic? Is that reasonable?
Regarding being at the rally, I wasn’t there, but would I have been identified as an anti-Semitic POS if I had gone?
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam Trump has continually refused to condemn neo-Nazis although asked to do so and given many opportunities to do so. Many of his supporters are anti-Semitic extreme far right groups. If they thought for a moment, he did not share their beliefs, they would drop him in a moment.
His perceived loyal changes depending on who can give him money, get him money and enhance his brand hence Sheldon Adelson to who I assume you were referring. Many people who have relatives who are Jewish are anti Semitic.
I think most people at his rally are some combination anti immigrant, racist or anti-Semitic. He plays on people fears about people not like them taking their jobs, moving into their neighborhoods, becoming the majority in the US etc. All his actions-limiting immigration, wanting to do away with DACA, his useless and costly border wall-point to this.
No-just being at his rally does not make you anti one of this groups, but if you are there, there is a good chance you are.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam Actually my granddaughter and I have recently had a incredible bonding experience-she has been losing her baby teeth and I just lost a tooth (not for the same reason) and she always wants to see where the tooth is missing when we do face time or whatever it is called. She wanted to know if I put it under the pillow to get some money and I told her I didn’t think the tooth fairy gave money to people my age, but anyway the dentist kept it when he pulled it out so I didn’t have it. She said I should have asked for it.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@Pam@tinamarie1974 She turned 6 in November. Last time we saw her was December before last on a family cruise. In my day, I was just satisfied to come down to see my parents and get some warm weather. Now if you don’t pay for their tickets and entertain them, they won’t come down to see you.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@tinamarie1974 Probably going to have some more missing teeth for her which will please her no end-my dentist has recommended that my in addition to the lose tooth he had to pull, I needs to pull three other one on the bottom front due to the crowding down there. About 60 years ago my dentist and orthodontist had an argument about whether I should have a tooth pulled to make it easier to put braces on my bottom teeth. Dentist won out as it was not pulled and did not have any braces on my bottom teeth. About 2 years after that my dentist retired and went to a new dentist who asked me when was the last time I had gone to a dentist-said 6 months ago-he said well you have 13 cavities. Should have listen to the orthodontist and would not have the problem now.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@tinamarie1974 I have a confession to make. I can now admit this without fear of being ostracized or physically harmed that about 10 years ago, my wife and I were invited to and attended an anniversary party at Mar-a-Largo. One of my wife’s cousin who is a member at Mar-a-Largo (Trump gave him a free membership) hosted a party for his parent’s wedding anniversary there. Trump was invited and would have attended but he had the finals of one of this beauty pageants that night.
I feel better getting that off my chest. You have no idea the pressure of carrying that secret around for the last 4 years considering how I feel about Trump.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater if it makes you feel better I have the Trump game in my closet, I asked for it for Christmas MANY years ago FWIW it is a dumb ass game that I only have played once in so many years. I should throw it away, but I can’t for some reason.
@Pam I have apologize for my previous comment to you about not missing you if you left-you thoughtful comments (although misguided in my opinion) were a radical departure from some of the other rabid Trump supporters posts. Hope you didn’t feel we were ganging up on you and that scared you away.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@tinamarie1974 I even felt intimated going up to and talking to my wife’s cousin. Not sure I would have much in common with someone who owns originals of the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independance.
@Kidsandliz Both of these he lent to the National Archives to be put on display. But I think his most impressive philanthrophy (sp) was donating 4.5 million to Panda program at the National zoo to keep it solvent and his paying 50% (which otherwise would have had to be raised publicly) for fixing the damaged Washington Monument after the earthquake.
@Felton10 That family has done a lot of good. Dallas has far better medical care due to their donations. They support medical stuff, the arts, things like you mention… Makes me wonder what it would have been like if he had actually become president.
@Felton10@Pam Yes - Pam, it’s refreshing to have a political exchange with someone with different opinions that was cordial in tone! I appreciate your expressing your ideas so thoughtfully. Good example for everyone including me.
@Felton10@Kidsandliz@Limewater@tinamarie1974someone who owns originals of the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independance.
Wow, your wife’s cousin isn’t Ross Perot, is he??? He must be quite the VIP, in any case!
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@tinamarie1974 Not going to mention his name, but the Panda house at the Washington Zoo was renamed after him after he made the contribution to keep it going so who he is should be easy to find. He is alive. Ross Perot is dead. He lived around the corner from my wife growing up as did most of her cousins.
@Kidsandliz@Kyeh@Limewater@tinamarie1974 Wish I was. He basically cut off most contact with all his cousins and until that party, my wife had not seen or heard from him in probably 25 years. But he was very good to his parents though and that is all that really matters. Plus all the money he has given away to worthy causes (7.5 million given to fix Wash Monument probably his most noteworthy) Still interesting to be related by marriage to someone famous and well known.
@Felton10@Kyeh@Limewater@tinamarie1974 Somehow I thought you were talking about Ross Perot since he/his family is generous and owns the copy of the Magna Carta that is in DC, the family foundation donates to many public interest, patriotic, medical causes…
@zinimusprime I was a Republican until they got us into a fake war with Iraq. They’ve been shit ever since. I don’t agree with the Democrats all the time but at least they aren’t courting the white supremacists.
The Grand Old Party has evolved over time to solely serve the ultra-wealthy only, and by any means possible. I don’t subscribe to either party, so this is not a comdemnation of conservatives at all. But the Republican party has always been Trump-like… at least with the blatant grift and corruption.
Trump just made it glaringly, unavoidably obvious to everyone.
@zinimusprime I think Biden honestly is pretty close to a republican candidate in terms of his main policies being “Get Trump out”, “Fix the economy”, and “Talk about systemic issues while doing nothing”.
@zinimusprime I won’t make this personal (though you’re welcome to answer personally) and I don’t know exactly what you have and haven’t done (though, again, you’re welcome to let us know), but too many “sensible Republicans” have actively enabled and most others have passively allowed Trump to rise to and remain in power.
If “sensible Republicans” want to be dissociated from Trump and Trumpian fascism, they could start by
Confessing and owning the ways that they’ve helped bring us to where we are, including by their silence and inaction.
And if they’ve only spoken up recently or only against the seditious shit that happened last week, that’s too little too fucking late and they’ll need to make a more thorough accounting.
Repenting thereof.
Actively, emphatically, repeatedly disavowing the bullshit.
Articulating the–preferably many–ways they disagree with the philosophies, policies and actions of Trump and his vile hordes. I’m sorry (not sorry), but vague shit like, for instance, “I’m just a fiscal conservative”, doesn’t cut it.
Joining with others in the work of overturning and undoing the Trump legacy.
Honestly, I think a lot of Democrats and “liberals” need to do the same.
And for the record, I’m mostly unimpressed by The Lincoln Project (see “too little too late”), but it’s a start.
In any case, anyone wanting to not be associated with Trump needs to fucking earn it.
To be very clear, this isn’t a we-they thing. It’s an invitation to come together in mutual effort to clean shit up. ALL Americans, especially older white Americans, are implicated. As a cis hetero old white guy, that definitely includes me. I assure you, I’ve tried to do my part to oppose him (most folks know that about me before they even know who I am) even before he declared his candidacy (Trump as a persona and idea in the unfortunately-various ways he impacted our culture; I’ve hated him and what he represents from way back), and I promise you that I will continue the work.
@joelmw I’ll start with what was originally my finishing thought - Trump is not a good man and was not a good president. I don’t wish ill on any living person, but if I could get a hall pass on wishing someone lots of pain he’d be on my short list. He’s a megalomaniac in the most academic and obvious ways. He retaliates like a child and comports himself as one when negotiating. His handling of the corona virus has been embarrassing at best and criminal at worst. He’s a politician in the worst ways possible and lacks all forms of tact and diplomacy with his opposition.
With that being said, I’m not sure how I can “disavow” other than not voting for him and saying what I said in the first paragraph. I mean, for the first time in my life I voted across party lines. I had a voice and I used it. Isn’t that what we’ve all be told to do?
On the…
Blockquote In any case, anyone wanting to not be associated with Trump needs to fucking earn it.
I say, slow your roll on this guilty until proven otherwise crap. Saying that because I’m a republican the onus is on me to disassociate myself from Trump is prejudice at its core. I’m a down the middle conservative. I’m not a right wing looney, but I’m definitely conservative. If my belief that the private sector is a preferred, but not the sole means, of accomplishing things makes me a Trump supporter in your eyes then I believe you are in violation of the tolerance and open-mindedness that the left claims to support.
I will not apologize for thinking that the government is not our knight in shining armor coming to save us and I will not apologize for having conservative social views. I’m assuming you have different views and that’s cool and what makes our country so great. What doesn’t make it great is when you attack me for my views and I attack you for your views. So please, think differently than me, but don’t associate me with criminals because they’re on both sides of the aisle (see all instances of communism, democracy, free market, etc. across the world and history).
The problem is that this isn’t a left/right thing. It’s a hate thing. People on the right hate people on the left and vice versa. People are crooks. People are thieves. Republicans aren’t crooks and democrats aren’t crooks. I’m sure there are people in socialist and communist governments that aren’t bad people either.
So with all due respect, I don’t have to earn anything from you. However, what I will do is not call you names, and respect you enough to allow you to have that opinion, even though I might wholeheartedly disagree with portions of what you said.
This is most (maybe all) of what I was asking for:
I’ll start with what was originally my finishing thought - Trump is not a good man and was not a good president. I don’t wish ill on any living person, but if I could get a hall pass on wishing someone lots of pain he’d be on my short list. He’s a megalomaniac in the most academic and obvious ways. He retaliates like a child and comports himself as one when negotiating. His handling of the corona virus has been embarrassing at best and criminal at worst. He’s a politician in the worst ways possible and lacks all forms of tact and diplomacy with his opposition.
With that being said, I’m not sure how I can “disavow” other than not voting for him and saying what I said in the first paragraph. I mean, for the first time in my life I voted across party lines. I had a voice and I used it. Isn’t that what we’ve all be told to do?
Thank you for voting across party lines. Truly. That’s a meaningful action. The fact that you voted against him wasn’t clear in your original comment and I don’t think I should be expected to assume it. That you acted on your professed conviction wasn’t clear in your original comment. Surely you know that lots of folks who–especially now–pretend to be opposed to him nevertheless voted for or otherwise enabled him? It’s kind of a thing. We’re fools if we give his mostly self-serving come-lately detractors a pass. They’ll support that “gross” shit again, given the opportunity.
More broadly, as I said, I think all of us are culpable to a degree, and that includes me, even though I didn’t vote for him and have actively worked to oppose him since he was elected.
There are many, many ways that you can additionally disavow him. Clarifying and elaborating on your stance counts. Your vote is significant (and that’s a big one I was looking for). Our civic responsibility doesn’t end with a vote, especially in the case of Trumpian fascism, but that’s a much larger conversation. Mostly I wanted to give you the opportunity to spell out what you might have done and what you intend to do. But, again, the vote matters.
I will not apologize for thinking that the government is not our knight in shining armor coming to save us and I will not apologize for having conservative social views. . . . What doesn’t make it great is when you attack me for my views and I attack you for your views.
I didn’t ask you for an apology for your views and I didn’t attack you for them.
I remain comfortable asking for an apology from and attacking those who supported Trump. And I won’t apologize for that.
There’s plenty of room for disagreement. But I hope you appreciate that Trump and his supporters crossed several lines, repeatedly, brazenly.
Failing to address their brazen disregard for democratic norms and human rights helps no one. It allows them to skirt accountability. I don’t apologize for expecting folks to both own and answer for actions that so unequivocally undermine whatever positive ideals this country is founded on and/or aspires to. I don’t apologize for detesting their disregard for human rights.
@joelmw The thoughtfulness and tone of your response is appreciated! It’s unfortunate that it’s not more normal, but that is where we are in society, lol.
Yeah I probably should’ve been more clear that I didn’t vote for him. Even still, I don’t think anyone that supported him on election day should be shamed. If that happens, I believe it starts to tear at the very fabric of what our country was built on. I say this because the court of public opinion is not often right and people should be allowed to vote without being peer pressured into something they don’t agree with. And if I’m following my own motto, you can request an apology from a Trump voter all you want and that’s your right. It’s also the right of that voter to not give it.
I think it’s clear that the line in the sand here is Trump and not Right vs Left. Up until last week he was a terrible president and hellbent on antagonizing rather than bringing people together. As the president, he has a duty to be above reproach and inciting the march on the capitol was a clean crossing of the lines.
So I think for the most part we’re saying the same thing. My experience has brought to a place in life where I caution anyone on the shaming rhetoric on either side, whether you agree with me or not on a particular issue. So I guess, that’s probably the crux of what I was trying to get across.
Either way, I agree with you on Trump himself. I hope he gets impeached. Doesn’t that mean he can’t run again in 2024?
@Kyeh@zinimusprime I don’t know why the Senate would go through all those motions but not bar him from running again. As I understand it, conviction requires a two-thirds vote and prohibition from holding office again is a straight majority. I don’t see them getting the 2/3 but not the subsequent half.
Since we are extolling the “wisdom” of former celebrity governators, why not contemplate the very intelligent Jesse “The Body” Ventura and his timely message for this period in time:
/youtube
I can’t see this so it must be from Twitter
Can you post a non embed link or a screenshot?
@f00l Yes, he posted it to Twitter. I’ll have to look for another source, but it’s all over the place this morning.
@f00l I was able to watch it without a Twitter account.
Here we go, Arnold has a Youtube channel as well.
@blaineg
Arnold has his moments. That’s a great one
@blaineg At least he has an active channel.
What is he selling today? And who’s buying that crap anyway?
@philibe I believe it’s called “democracy” or maybe “the American dream” or perhaps “The Constitution”.
thank you for sharing that
We are almost rid of Trump-hopefully forever. Now we have to get rid of all his enablers so that he his memory is flushed down the toilet forever.
@CosmicTwister
But Trump would claim it was the greatest pile of ashes the world had ever seen!
@CosmicTwister
Make America
Gray Again
I really feel like making a sword now.
What about the broken glass of Chop, Antifa, BLM? What about statues pulled down or desecrated without public permission and churches burned? What about Nancy Pelosi’s response: <shrug>. “People will be people.” I’m not a proud boy, I’m old woman now. I urge my fellow readers to look carefully —to weigh the evidence and motivations carefully.
@Pam None of those people smeared feces throughout the capital buildings. Get your head out of your ass.
@Fuzzalini @Pam
And none if them were invited to their acts of destruction by one of the highest government officeholders.
And these BLM protestors were responding to unjustifiable deaths of people of color at the hands of police.
As long as we’re intellectually low enough to do questionable comparisons of the “but what about” type:
what about unjustifiable police violence toward people of color?
That violence has only been going in for 400+ years at a minimum. Don’t you think it ought to stop?
What about that? Huh?
Shall we do some more phony “what about” alleged rebuttal posts between events that do not compare at all, or can we stop that sort of garbage conversation now?
And stop with automatic “antifa” mentions.
Almost the right wing conversation about antifa is nothing more than rumor and propaganda. Antifa has become a fav blame target for all sorts of sins for which there is exactly zero evidence.
Please be careful where you get your news. Or your “news”.
Many so-called “news sources”, esp those which purport to be right-wing or conservative, are nothing more than straight propaganda.
They use every technique ever prefected by Stalinists.
The “propaganda” label applies accurately to the talk shows on the Fox News Channel.
Chris Wallace is a straight news source. Much of the rest of Fox is just a garbage pit.
At least when an MSNBC, CNN, PBS/NPR, major broadcast network, talking head opines a pov about something, they start from facts. They don’t push rumor as being equivalent to fact.
@f00l @Fuzzalini @Pam
For what it’s worth, the Fox News website seems to have a much more favorable ratio of fact-based reporting compared to the television network.
@Fuzzalini @Limewater @Pam
If their print output is more reliable, I might try their app.
I can’t now remember where I read this accounting of a dinner conversation between Rupert Murdoch and several hard right Republican Congress people
But the gist of it was that he was asking them why they went along with certain policies he doesn’t like
And one of these Congress people responded by asking him if he even watched his own network
Because if these Congresspeople went against what the talk shows on his network advocated on these topics, they’d be primaried by some alt-right political ambitious sort.
And Rupert Murdoch just sighed and said something to the effect of:
that’s the way Fox News is going right now: it’s got momentum and I don’t manage it day to day
Wait… @Pam, are you seriously saying that liberal groups are the ones who burn churches???
Methinks you’re the one who needs to read history again. And start questioning the ‘news’ sources you currently are believing. (And I honestly say all that without malice.)
@haydesigner
Yes, that’s what I thought. Liberal groups burned churches, court houses, Philadelphia, Seattle, Minneapolis. Who were the real culprits? Sincere thanks!
@Pam
Hmmmm The tone of your response just above… Hmmmm.
You are aware, I hope, that you didn’t “win” this little sub-discussion.
@f00l
Winning a discussion means advancing understanding. Our goal is to understand one another. Many very good people hold divergent thoughts. How in the world could that/did that happen?
@Pam
Thank you for ignoring the substance of what I said.
I guess you didn’t wish to respond to it.
does that mean you don’t have a response? I’ll leave that particular problem in your custody
As for person’s holding divergent opinions and having different thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, and points of view: of course we do.
Our brains are built that way. it’s inevitable in the biology from the ground up, not to mention inevitable in our society
Part of the point of discussion is to exchange these ideas and hopefully to move forward our own understandings of each other and of our own positions and of the issue at hand
I’ll point out the obvious here
in order to accomplish any of that:
moving forward one’s or another’s or many person’s understanding(s), it helps to have to have a quality discussion.
@Pam
I agree with a lot of what others have said, including that “antifa!” is just the fallback, right wing, bullshit red herring. But as someone who is a BLM activist, I agree, we should be asking “what about BLM?”
For context, I’ve been involved in numerous events in defense of Black lives (and in some instances, helped plan and organize); we’re somewhat active around several issues, but the defense of Black lives, especially from violent and murderous cops, is our priority. My wife and I participated in a few of the events near the beginning of the pandemic that FOX and others falsely accused of being riots. Here’s what I know, primarily from direct experience, with a few details based on my wife’s testimony and further substantiated by testimony of people I literally trust with my life (and certainly far more than most of the community here, even though I love some of you dearly).
What about BLM? The attempted insurrection last week illustrated how much more white lives matter in this country and, by contrast how little we care about Black lives.
So what are you doing about Black lives and a system that’s effectively engineered to oppress, exploit and prematurely end them?
Don’t fucking lecture me. Look at your damned self.
@joelmw @Pam
I certainly don’t believe destruction during protest is okay. I’m profoundly sorry that there were have been some incidences of destruction during black lives matter protests.
I’m even more sorry that so many people of color have been victims of excess violence from police forces and other law enforcement
I’m even more sorry that during many of these incidences of excess violence by law enforcement against people of color some of the people of color have either died or been permanently disabled in a significant way
I am unaware of any black lives matter protesters intending, according to statements caught on tape at the time, to execute the vice president and or the speaker of the House as traitors
I am unaware of any instances of black lives matter protesters using flagpoles (on which was hung the American flag at that moment) as weapons with which to beat up cops
I am unaware of any members of Black lives matter using flagpoles on which American flags were currently hung as weapons with which to bash indoors brake glass and commit other destruction.
I’m unaware of any instances during which black lives matter protesters were encouraged by our chief of state to occupy or attack a seat of government and the leaders of the legislative branch of government.
I guess I’m running short of points of valid comparison
@Pam In the midst of everything else, I neglected to include a key point:
@f00l
Not too long ago we were told that news and advertisements were going to be increasingly selected for our interests. As a result, each of us rec’d more and more stuff that felt in harmony with our beliefs and desires. We were largely unaware that the next person might be getting a wholly different set of news items. We get surprised when our neighbor has come to tremendously divergent conclusions.
The result is that our population has been segmented according to what we read and believe. And what is right? How do we know?
The Capitol invaders were probably mostly middle America who read and believe that our country is being overtaken by people who will transform our country into something we’ll all (eventually) regret. Further, they read and believe that there are corrupted politicians in power who will bend their knee to a totalitarian global governance.
So, f00l and Fuzzalini, et al, I’m not going to go into depth about what I read and believe. I choose to read Meh; we have much in common! But, we have generational divides; educational divides (how we were taught in the 50s and 60s in our schools was very different than what is taught today), and news divides. May America become better and better over the coming years!
@f00l
PS
Wow! Joelmw, thank you for sharing. Thank you, everyone for giving me a little more perspective!
@Pam We ought to be excited that you broke away from watching FAUX News and drinking the tRump koolaid to honor us with your very insightful but totally wrong and misguided comments on what happen. We won’t be disappointed if you leave again and if we never hear from you again. We don’t miss “Only One Truth”.
@Pam
Many of us have been aware of this segmentation and echo chambering for well over a decade. It’s come up in conversations within my non-techie family, whose politics range all over the place, and whose education levels do also.
(I don’t believe education correlates that well with intelligence;
Sometimes education correlates with breadth of exposure to alternative POVs. And sometimes not.)
I’m lucky to have a family in which we seem to all be able to have serious, respectful, thoughtful conversations with each other, across large ideological divides.
We work at not using the rhetorical crap and techniques that seem to pass for political debate methods in some less favored areas of the internet.
We work at listening carefully and with empathy.
We work at being openinded and willing to reconsider.
I’m fortunate in being part of this family.
@Felton10 @Pam
No, I think Pam’s comments are sincere and respectful, unlike our former sparring partner - I do value hearing from people who hold different opinions if they can explain them thoughtfully.
@Kyeh @Pam Granted Pam’s comments were not as out there as others who have posted here, but they lack as most Trump’s supporters do a total disregard for the facts and the issues at hand. Being able to explain their position calmly unsupported by any facts is equally objectionable to me.
@Felton10 @Kyeh
My facts originate in the books “None Dare Call it Treason” and then a booklet “None Dare Call it Conspiracy” by Gary Allen—read back in 1970. Then Carroll Quigley’s (Georgetown U) lectures and book. Then lectures at Berkeley by Aldous Huxley (online). Revelation in the Bible. The current proclamations of the World Economic Forum, Agenda 21 and 30. I tend to appreciate news sources that sort of line up with my prior reading.
There are historians—such as my brother—who draw somewhat different conclusions than I do.
For me, it’s like a huge jig saw puzzle. Where does this piece go?
@Felton10 @Kyeh @Pam
The trouble with that is that the result would likely mean a lack of broad diversity in point of view with what you read. That would be like putting the puzzle together when you are color blind. Much harder.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh
Fair enough. I observe as much as I can. I know that an error in the premise guarantees an error in the conclusion. I’ve read a great deal of assorted books over many years. I do the best I can, and I KNOW I’m not infallible. What I think I see is this: We are headed into global governance. A take down of the USA is coming so that we will be equal to all other countries (Agenda 21). Trump is hated by the globalist elite who want to move us away from nationalism. Trump and Trump supporters want America first (nationalist). Nationalism probably will not prevail. Trump is Brexit to Biden’s EU. That’s what I see. Top down government with some local freedom within guidelines. I hope all will be well for everyone.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Pam
Not exactly facts …
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Pam
President Trump’s actions indicate that top-down government with some local freedom within guidelines has been his agenda the whole time. He has repeatedly sought to expand his authority and executive power as President. He has attempted to increase his own power as President at the expense of other branches of federal government and state and local government.
Trump is Nationalism, sure. He is also Authoritarianism.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh
You’d have to read it for yourself. Don’t depend on others to think for you. “Read this.” “Don’t read that.” None Dare Call it Treason suggests that there has been Communist infiltration. None Dare Call it Conspiracy suggests that the Communists in NDCIT actually are a global elite with a plan. It’s worth considering. HG Wells talks about the plan in several of his nonfiction books. Cecil Rhodes talked about it. Put that idea on a spectrum of possibilities. Don’t be binary: T or F. Rather, why not think , “Hmmm, not likely but I’ll keep it in mind as a possibility.” Then look around you and see if it might fit.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Pam I understand you believe what you have read, but respectfully your conclusion is a bunch of crap. Your initial comments about ANTIFA and BLM proves you have been brainwashed by Fox and Trump. Trump cares nothing about the you, the United States, nor democracy. He is willing to blow up everything the US has had in place for over 200 years for his own selfish motive-to remain in power like Putin and Kim Jung Un and every other dictator he wants to be like. He deserves to be impeached, convicted and thrown in jail.
They say he is surprised by the business backlash-people fleeing from any association with him. That would be the ultimate form of retribution and punishment for him-the total take down and destruction of the Trump brand due to his actions.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
I don’t know how to defend Trump here. He may not be as wonderful as we’d like, but he said he wanted to make America great. Have you read Trump’s The Art of the Deal? He seems to like America—NYCity particularly. NAFTA was a highly suspicious treaty. You might not remember Ross Perot who told us that NAFTA would take away our jobs. NAFTA was a valuable piece of globalism that Trump hopefully took down. (Some people say he replaced NAFTA with worse, and I didn’t ck it out.). NAFTA not only took away jobs in the USA, but NAFTA being a treaty overruled our US laws. Trump is for America First. Biden said he is not for America first. We’re being taught that nationalism is a dirty word. Maybe so. Back in my day (LOL), we were taught nationalism. We stood for the pledge of allegiance every day. Now, I understand from a middle school history teacher, our founding fathers are not to be taught. That was in 2008. I noticed when my daughter was in college she brought home a book entitled Your Place in a Global Society. Education has changed. My children say that it is their turn to lead. We old folks need to step aside. <sigh>. Just know what you’re getting.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh
Felton, I cannot know how much I have been brainwashed. Let me mention another book that I stumbled upon in a psych class in the mid 90s. It was written by Dr Sidney Jourard—“The Father of Self-Disclosure.” He was an experimental psych professor at the University of FL. He was known for his relaxed and caring approach toward counseling. However, in his last book—I can’t find it on my bookshelves—the titles of all his books are similar—but his very last book he warns that entities are paying for experimentation to learn how to control the masses—the opposite of what Jourard ever wanted to do—and the answer was KEEP THEM MYSTIFIED and STUPIFIED. I tease my husband, “Are we mystified and stupified yet?” God bless everyone!!
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam Saying he wanted “to make America great” is not the same as doing it. All of his actions over the past 4 years show his main goal was to make him and his cronies great and rich-the United States be damned.
No I have not and will not read the Art of the Deal. The man who co-wrote the book with him Tony Schwartz has been on TV many times (probably not on Fox-that is why you missed him) to tell everything about the real Donald Trump and the lies he was selling.
Maybe if you would get out more you might discover the real truth about Trump and what a cancer he has been to America.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam Pam - I’m amused that you’re telling us, essentially, not to jump to conclusions, yet you seem to assume that we’re all a bunch of naive young things! I regret to inform you that we’re not.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Limewater, Trump has not had the support of media nor the support of much of Congress or of many Americans. Before he even took office he was branded “incompetent.” I suspect that the intense disapproval of Trump caused him to act alone. The fence at the border? Biden wants open borders. The Council on Foreign Relations is all for open borders. According to the CFR, it would be good to have multi-country regions where there will be free movement of people and goods across US borders. And that may be a great idea. It’s just very different from the old days when immigrants were permitted or not. I must be careful to not be too reactionary.
Some folks from England told me of their disillusionment with the EU. Huge money left England, and they took orders from the EU. Maybe that’s good?
@Felton10 @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam
The problem with believing his book and his advice, etc. is that he routinely stiffs his contractors, has his businesses declare bankruptcy, lost legal battles over his “university” that defrauded students, etc. As a result if he is taking his own advice perhaps it isn’t good advice. If it was good advice he wouldn’t need to do that to try to stay financially solvent.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
I feel like an interloper on Meh because it has such a young vibe. I DiD jump to conclusions. I apologize for assuming there is no one as old as me here! LOL
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Kidsandliz,
I think I was hopeful for someone who might want jobs to come back.
@Felton10 @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam There are a bunch of old farts (grin) on here. And middle aged farts. And young farts.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam The reason we are all chatting and responding is that we are all old farts and have nothing better to do. BTW just for your frame of reference so you won’t feel out of place, I am 74, still working part-time and have been married 49 years, two children in their 40’s and have a 25 year old parrot. What does that qualify me as?
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam
I’m generally happy to let people think I’m young if they want to, but I thought it was kind of funny that you assumed we’re all kids.
I do believe that keeping on learning and letting one’s beliefs evolve does help one stay mentally young (not the same as naive)!
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam As long as I don’t walk by to many mirrors, I think I am young. At least going to numerous doctors on an ongoing basis, keeps me active.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Felton, thank you. My husband and I will turn 70 later this year, and it really doesn’t feel old, does it? We’ve been married for 45 years come July. Four children — four grandchildren. And I didn’t know there’s be such a vibrant message board in meh. : )
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Kidsandliz, what a nice group!
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
“Don’t believe everything you think!” Lol!
@Felton10 @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam
A Jimmy Buffet fan? (snicker)
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam I’ve read around a bit in the Casemates political thread, and it struck me as much more “adult” in tone, but not as lively or interesting as the ones on Meh. These can get rude and crude at times but I prefer them.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Btw, I found the title of Sidney M. Jourard’s book that warns us of the mystifying-stupefying technique for control of masses: Disclosing Man to Himself. Just in case someone might be interested. It was published in early 1990s.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam
Time to call in the "Brigades des Stupefiants Marseille”!!!
https://meh.com/forum/topics/2020-holiday-exchange-reveal#5ff8acbfe5c831001104f7c6
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh
Correction: published 1968!
Sidney Jourard’s Disclosing Man to Himself
P37. “Scientific psychology aims at discovering laws of human behavior so that man can be more fully predicted and controlled by somebody.”
P20 “Machiavelli knew this when he advised his Prince to conceal his ultimate aims from his subjects. They were to be mystified.”
Just in case you’re interested!
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam Just curious - you’ve evidently been a member for a long time, but never joined the forums before? What drew you in? I was hesitant for a while, but liked a lot of the humor and interesting topics, and while I’ve never joined Facebook or Twitter, I started hanging out in this forum because it just has a neat mixture of silliness and seriousness. Some topics don’t interest me at all, but I’ve also learned things I would never have known otherwise. One caution, though - it’s a serious time sink!
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Kyeh,
I’ve often looked at the message board and never thought to join in.
Shwarzenegger’s speech inspired me to say something.
The rioters at the Capitol did not have a Nazi mindset. They had a nationalist mindset. Soon nationalist and Nazi may become synonymous. If “nationalist” becomes a dirty word, where are we to go? Globalist, of course.
So, I felt inspired.
Pam
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam My wife pointed out to me that I mentioned our parrot but failed to mention that we had one granddaughter. Before she hit me, I said the only reason for the omission was the Walter lives with us, but our granddaughter is 1,000 miles away.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam Because I have a parrot. No. Probably crazy because I don’t treat him like a bird.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam I only feel old when I watch reruns of “All in the Family” knowing Archie was in his mid 50’s.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam
I see.
But you know, unfortunately, some of those guys are definitely Nazis.
ttps://www.fox5dc.com/news/virginia-man-in-camp-auschwitz-shirt-at-riot-arrested-authorities-say
https://www.adl.org/blog/proud-boys-bigotry-is-on-full-display
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam ![1]][1]
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/virginia-man-in-camp-auschwitz-shirt-at-riot-arrested-authorities-say
[1]:
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Kyeh,
A picture is worth 1,000 words. : (
But the non-deranged bulk of the multitude were certainly not Nazis. They were citizens who passionately support America First and a president who SEEMED to care about them. They were citizens who were concerned about the validity of the election. So concerned they were that they spent time and money to congregate in the freezing cold to let Trump know they were behind him.
Did our country deserve such support? Yes. Did Trump deserve such support? It doesn’t look like it.
Pam
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam There you go again parroting (excuse the reference to parrots)
the lies and misinformation that Fox News is spewing.
But the non-deranged bulk of the multitude were certainly not Nazis. (They were-take my word for it-I know anti-semetic POS when I see them because I am Jewish) They were citizens who passionately support America First and a president who SEEMED to care about them. (They were people looking to cause trouble and Trump only cares about himself-never anyone else) They were citizens who were concerned about the validity of the election. (More Trump BS-more than 60 courts wouldn’t even hear the cases of election fraud as there was no evidence-but these idiots believed what Trump said just on his say so) So concerned they were that they spent time and money to congregate in the freezing cold to let Trump know they were behind him.(That shows how deranged and stupid they were) Hope you were not one of them.
@Felton10 @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam
Umm what is it worth to you to make sure that we fail to let your kid know about this…? (just kidding
)
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater
Felton,
Well, do you agree that Trump is NOT anti-Semitic? His primary donor was Jewish. He moved the capital of Israel to Jerusalem. Ivanka and Jared are Jewish. He’s on the King Cyrus coin. However, you feel that all his supporters ARE anti-Semitic? Is that reasonable?
Regarding being at the rally, I wasn’t there, but would I have been identified as an anti-Semitic POS if I had gone?
Pam
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam Trump has continually refused to condemn neo-Nazis although asked to do so and given many opportunities to do so. Many of his supporters are anti-Semitic extreme far right groups. If they thought for a moment, he did not share their beliefs, they would drop him in a moment.
His perceived loyal changes depending on who can give him money, get him money and enhance his brand hence Sheldon Adelson to who I assume you were referring. Many people who have relatives who are Jewish are anti Semitic.
I think most people at his rally are some combination anti immigrant, racist or anti-Semitic. He plays on people fears about people not like them taking their jobs, moving into their neighborhoods, becoming the majority in the US etc. All his actions-limiting immigration, wanting to do away with DACA, his useless and costly border wall-point to this.
No-just being at his rally does not make you anti one of this groups, but if you are there, there is a good chance you are.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam Actually my granddaughter and I have recently had a incredible bonding experience-she has been losing her baby teeth and I just lost a tooth (not for the same reason) and she always wants to see where the tooth is missing when we do face time or whatever it is called. She wanted to know if I put it under the pillow to get some money and I told her I didn’t think the tooth fairy gave money to people my age, but anyway the dentist kept it when he pulled it out so I didn’t have it. She said I should have asked for it.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @Pam Haha - that’s awfully cute! How old is she?
@Felton10. That is so cute!!
My niece lost her front tooth last year, her fav hockey player was missing the same tooth. She was so excited and exclaimed they were tooth twins!!!
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam @tinamarie1974 She turned 6 in November. Last time we saw her was December before last on a family cruise. In my day, I was just satisfied to come down to see my parents and get some warm weather. Now if you don’t pay for their tickets and entertain them, they won’t come down to see you.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 Probably going to have some more missing teeth for her which will please her no end-my dentist has recommended that my in addition to the lose tooth he had to pull, I needs to pull three other one on the bottom front due to the crowding down there. About 60 years ago my dentist and orthodontist had an argument about whether I should have a tooth pulled to make it easier to put braces on my bottom teeth. Dentist won out as it was not pulled and did not have any braces on my bottom teeth. About 2 years after that my dentist retired and went to a new dentist who asked me when was the last time I had gone to a dentist-said 6 months ago-he said well you have 13 cavities. Should have listen to the orthodontist and would not have the problem now.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @Pam
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 I have a confession to make. I can now admit this without fear of being ostracized or physically harmed that about 10 years ago, my wife and I were invited to and attended an anniversary party at Mar-a-Largo. One of my wife’s cousin who is a member at Mar-a-Largo (Trump gave him a free membership) hosted a party for his parent’s wedding anniversary there. Trump was invited and would have attended but he had the finals of one of this beauty pageants that night.
I feel better getting that off my chest. You have no idea the pressure of carrying that secret around for the last 4 years considering how I feel about Trump.
I feel much better.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @tinamarie1974
I wonder how you’d feel if he’d shown up!!?
Felton,
Entrenched fear seems to be the problem dividing our population.
I’m reminded of Steven King’s Needful Things where Evil laughs at mortals as they maliciously retaliate at the wrong people.
I’m grateful for my time on the Meh message board. I understand a little better.
I probably won’t be back for awhile as I digest.
Pam
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 Probably would have felt a little intimidated.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater if it makes you feel better I have the Trump game in my closet, I asked for it for Christmas MANY years ago
FWIW it is a dumb ass game that I only have played once in so many years. I should throw it away, but I can’t for some reason.
@Pam I have apologize for my previous comment to you about not missing you if you left-you thoughtful comments (although misguided in my opinion) were a radical departure from some of the other rabid Trump supporters posts. Hope you didn’t feel we were ganging up on you and that scared you away.
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 I even felt intimated going up to and talking to my wife’s cousin. Not sure I would have much in common with someone who owns originals of the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independance.
@tinamarie1974 Sell it on ebay. To that crowd it is probably worth a fortune.
@Felton10 I think who ones one of the originals of the Magns Carta is the Perot Family. It is kept though in the Capital.
@Kidsandliz so that is why I am holding on to it, I feel like it could be worth something at some point.
All of that I do not tell people I have it
@Kidsandliz Both of these he lent to the National Archives to be put on display. But I think his most impressive philanthrophy (sp) was donating 4.5 million to Panda program at the National zoo to keep it solvent and his paying 50% (which otherwise would have had to be raised publicly) for fixing the damaged Washington Monument after the earthquake.
@Kidsandliz @tinamarie1974 We won’t tell anyone.
@Kidsandliz @tinamarie1974 My daughter sells lots things I got in my IRK on ebay-those people will buy anything.
@Felton10 That family has done a lot of good. Dallas has far better medical care due to their donations. They support medical stuff, the arts, things like you mention… Makes me wonder what it would have been like if he had actually become president.
@Felton10 @Pam Yes - Pam, it’s refreshing to have a political exchange with someone with different opinions that was cordial in tone! I appreciate your expressing your ideas so thoughtfully. Good example for everyone including me.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Limewater @tinamarie1974
someone who owns originals of the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independance.
Wow, your wife’s cousin isn’t Ross Perot, is he??? He must be quite the VIP, in any case!
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 Not going to mention his name, but the Panda house at the Washington Zoo was renamed after him after he made the contribution to keep it going so who he is should be easy to find. He is alive. Ross Perot is dead. He lived around the corner from my wife growing up as did most of her cousins.
@Felton10 @Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater wow, I had no idea you were so important or important adjacent lol
@Kidsandliz @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 Wish I was. He basically cut off most contact with all his cousins and until that party, my wife had not seen or heard from him in probably 25 years. But he was very good to his parents though and that is all that really matters. Plus all the money he has given away to worthy causes (7.5 million given to fix Wash Monument probably his most noteworthy) Still interesting to be related by marriage to someone famous and well known.
@Felton10 @Kyeh @Limewater @tinamarie1974 Somehow I thought you were talking about Ross Perot since he/his family is generous and owns the copy of the Magna Carta that is in DC, the family foundation donates to many public interest, patriotic, medical causes…
Thankfully Trumps almost gone. Hopefully people will stop associating sensible republicans like me to him. Gross.
@zinimusprime I was a Republican until they got us into a fake war with Iraq. They’ve been shit ever since. I don’t agree with the Democrats all the time but at least they aren’t courting the white supremacists.
The Grand Old Party has evolved over time to solely serve the ultra-wealthy only, and by any means possible. I don’t subscribe to either party, so this is not a comdemnation of conservatives at all. But the Republican party has always been Trump-like… at least with the blatant grift and corruption.
Trump just made it glaringly, unavoidably obvious to everyone.
@zinimusprime I think Biden honestly is pretty close to a republican candidate in terms of his main policies being “Get Trump out”, “Fix the economy”, and “Talk about systemic issues while doing nothing”.
@DoctorOW @zinimusprime
For 8 years Biden was Veep. That’s more or less a government position in waiting
Then for 4 years he was not in government
We haven’t had much of a chance to see what he would do in a top executive position
@zinimusprime I won’t make this personal (though you’re welcome to answer personally) and I don’t know exactly what you have and haven’t done (though, again, you’re welcome to let us know), but too many “sensible Republicans” have actively enabled and most others have passively allowed Trump to rise to and remain in power.
If “sensible Republicans” want to be dissociated from Trump and Trumpian fascism, they could start by
Honestly, I think a lot of Democrats and “liberals” need to do the same.
And for the record, I’m mostly unimpressed by The Lincoln Project (see “too little too late”), but it’s a start.
In any case, anyone wanting to not be associated with Trump needs to fucking earn it.
To be very clear, this isn’t a we-they thing. It’s an invitation to come together in mutual effort to clean shit up. ALL Americans, especially older white Americans, are implicated. As a cis hetero old white guy, that definitely includes me. I assure you, I’ve tried to do my part to oppose him (most folks know that about me before they even know who I am) even before he declared his candidacy (Trump as a persona and idea in the unfortunately-various ways he impacted our culture; I’ve hated him and what he represents from way back), and I promise you that I will continue the work.
/giphy that’s my pledge
@joelmw I’ll start with what was originally my finishing thought - Trump is not a good man and was not a good president. I don’t wish ill on any living person, but if I could get a hall pass on wishing someone lots of pain he’d be on my short list. He’s a megalomaniac in the most academic and obvious ways. He retaliates like a child and comports himself as one when negotiating. His handling of the corona virus has been embarrassing at best and criminal at worst. He’s a politician in the worst ways possible and lacks all forms of tact and diplomacy with his opposition.
With that being said, I’m not sure how I can “disavow” other than not voting for him and saying what I said in the first paragraph. I mean, for the first time in my life I voted across party lines. I had a voice and I used it. Isn’t that what we’ve all be told to do?
On the…
I say, slow your roll on this guilty until proven otherwise crap. Saying that because I’m a republican the onus is on me to disassociate myself from Trump is prejudice at its core. I’m a down the middle conservative. I’m not a right wing looney, but I’m definitely conservative. If my belief that the private sector is a preferred, but not the sole means, of accomplishing things makes me a Trump supporter in your eyes then I believe you are in violation of the tolerance and open-mindedness that the left claims to support.
I will not apologize for thinking that the government is not our knight in shining armor coming to save us and I will not apologize for having conservative social views. I’m assuming you have different views and that’s cool and what makes our country so great. What doesn’t make it great is when you attack me for my views and I attack you for your views. So please, think differently than me, but don’t associate me with criminals because they’re on both sides of the aisle (see all instances of communism, democracy, free market, etc. across the world and history).
The problem is that this isn’t a left/right thing. It’s a hate thing. People on the right hate people on the left and vice versa. People are crooks. People are thieves. Republicans aren’t crooks and democrats aren’t crooks. I’m sure there are people in socialist and communist governments that aren’t bad people either.
So with all due respect, I don’t have to earn anything from you. However, what I will do is not call you names, and respect you enough to allow you to have that opinion, even though I might wholeheartedly disagree with portions of what you said.
@DoctorOW Isn’t that every president?
@zinimusprime
This is most (maybe all) of what I was asking for:
Thank you for voting across party lines. Truly. That’s a meaningful action. The fact that you voted against him wasn’t clear in your original comment and I don’t think I should be expected to assume it. That you acted on your professed conviction wasn’t clear in your original comment. Surely you know that lots of folks who–especially now–pretend to be opposed to him nevertheless voted for or otherwise enabled him? It’s kind of a thing. We’re fools if we give his mostly self-serving come-lately detractors a pass. They’ll support that “gross” shit again, given the opportunity.
More broadly, as I said, I think all of us are culpable to a degree, and that includes me, even though I didn’t vote for him and have actively worked to oppose him since he was elected.
There are many, many ways that you can additionally disavow him. Clarifying and elaborating on your stance counts. Your vote is significant (and that’s a big one I was looking for). Our civic responsibility doesn’t end with a vote, especially in the case of Trumpian fascism, but that’s a much larger conversation. Mostly I wanted to give you the opportunity to spell out what you might have done and what you intend to do. But, again, the vote matters.
@zinimusprime
I didn’t ask you for an apology for your views and I didn’t attack you for them.
I remain comfortable asking for an apology from and attacking those who supported Trump. And I won’t apologize for that.
There’s plenty of room for disagreement. But I hope you appreciate that Trump and his supporters crossed several lines, repeatedly, brazenly.
Failing to address their brazen disregard for democratic norms and human rights helps no one. It allows them to skirt accountability. I don’t apologize for expecting folks to both own and answer for actions that so unequivocally undermine whatever positive ideals this country is founded on and/or aspires to. I don’t apologize for detesting their disregard for human rights.
@joelmw The thoughtfulness and tone of your response is appreciated! It’s unfortunate that it’s not more normal, but that is where we are in society, lol.
Yeah I probably should’ve been more clear that I didn’t vote for him. Even still, I don’t think anyone that supported him on election day should be shamed. If that happens, I believe it starts to tear at the very fabric of what our country was built on. I say this because the court of public opinion is not often right and people should be allowed to vote without being peer pressured into something they don’t agree with. And if I’m following my own motto, you can request an apology from a Trump voter all you want and that’s your right. It’s also the right of that voter to not give it.
I think it’s clear that the line in the sand here is Trump and not Right vs Left. Up until last week he was a terrible president and hellbent on antagonizing rather than bringing people together. As the president, he has a duty to be above reproach and inciting the march on the capitol was a clean crossing of the lines.
So I think for the most part we’re saying the same thing. My experience has brought to a place in life where I caution anyone on the shaming rhetoric on either side, whether you agree with me or not on a particular issue. So I guess, that’s probably the crux of what I was trying to get across.
Either way, I agree with you on Trump himself. I hope he gets impeached. Doesn’t that mean he can’t run again in 2024?
@joelmw @zinimusprime
Not automatically:
Trump would not automatically be removed from office, or barred from holding federal office in the future, after a conviction vote. The Senate would have to vote again on whether or not to block the commander-in-chief from public office.
https://www.newsweek.com/how-congress-block-trump-running-2024-1560398
@Kyeh @zinimusprime I don’t know why the Senate would go through all those motions but not bar him from running again. As I understand it, conviction requires a two-thirds vote and prohibition from holding office again is a straight majority. I don’t see them getting the 2/3 but not the subsequent half.
Since we are extolling the “wisdom” of former celebrity governators, why not contemplate the very intelligent Jesse “The Body” Ventura and his timely message for this period in time:
/youtube
@IndifferentDude
Once a performer always a performer?
His delivery isn’t terrible.
I could have done without the backup singers or the chorus that didn’t add much
But I don’t think he’s quite ready for a full-time rock and roll career
@f00l @IndifferentDude I just want him to sing a song where he works in the line “I ain’t got time to bleed.”
I hate it when I find a fascinating thread at 1 AM. I have things to do tomorrow.