“UpToDate, the gold standard research database used by doctors, agrees with these low doses. “We suggest the use of low, physiologic doses (0.1 to 0.5 mg) for insomnia or jet lag (Grade 2B). High-dose preparations raise plasma melatonin concentrations to a supraphysiologic level and alter normal day/night melatonin rhythms.” Mayo Clinic makes a similar recommendation: they recommend 0.5 mg. John Hopkins’ experts almost agree: they say “less is more” but end up chickening out and recommending 1 to 3 mg, which is well above what the studies would suggest.
Based on a bunch of studies that either favor the lower dose or show no difference between doses, plus clear evidence that 0.3 mg produces an effect closest to natural melatonin spikes in healthy people, plus UpToDate usually having the best recommendations, I’m in favor of the 0.3 mg number. I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high. Excess melatonin isn’t grossly dangerous, but tends to produce tolerance and might mess up your chronobiology in other ways. Based on anecdotal reports and the implausibility of becoming tolerant to a natural hormone at the dose you naturally have it, I would guess sufficiently low doses are safe and effective long term, but this is just a guess, and most guidelines are cautious in saying anything after three months or so.”
@ExtraMedium@psantora@thechinglish I agree, i got the 3mg tabs, but i break them into like quarter tabs or less. A whole 3mg tab was harder to get to sleep with, and i would wake up much more groggy the next day.
I bought these at Walgreens a couple months ago. While they seem to be effective for helping me fall asleep, they smell/taste pretty bad. I stopped chewing them and hold my breath before taking them, followed by chugging water to avoid any lingering taste.
@gatwood Yeah I’ve never tried chewable. The ingredients look OK but it’s probably the “Lemon Balm” (which doesn’t take like Lemon) that gives it a very herbal flavor – a local store had a Lemon Balm liquor on clearance and it was… weird.)
I’ve used the sublingual (small easy-dissolving tablet under your tongue) for melatonin and they were OK. Kind of a non-taste just a sensation but I was OK with them. Never sure if they did much good though.
Note that all of us reading this now are up at night, presumably before bed, on screens reading and typing on the internet. And maybe with a TV on in the background. we probably should be reading books by candlelight before bed.
Too bad so many bottles at the high price.
Would probably try 6 bottles for $15.
I tend to try things like this for a while, see how it goes. Then forget or choose to do something else. Maybe come back. But a case of 12 bottles is just overkill unless I have a whole lot of insomniac friends – who are willing to try unknown pills I got for them on the Internetz. (even I would be reluctant if one of my friends said “here I got a case of these pills – have some!”)
@pmarin you can pick up some 1mg melatonin in any vitamin aisle in any grocery store for under $10 in one bottle. Usually ~200 pills. Take 2 if needed to match this. The rest is BS. And it is not intended to be an everyday thing anyway. Just to help reset your clock
Does cause some more vivid dreams for me. Fun side effect usually
@pmarin functioning Amazon link. $4.79 and a 25% off on first subscribe and save check box. Cancel after first shipment as usual. I have used this brand and others over the years because nightshift, two jobs, on call… Etc etc. It does it’s thing but it’s not really a sleeping pill. But no reason to spend $30.
@pmarin@unksol
Our local DG, Dollar General always has regular/plain melatonin for way less than any other place. (about $2. for 60 tablets) Even the regular dollar store, where everything is $1.00 carries some brand of this. Can’t beat $1.00, that place is great!
Melatonin, okay, yeah, but zinc is better used for corrosion control than immunity “support”. And anybody that thinks elderberries are delicious has never tried to eat one.
@katbyter
Galvanized iron or steel is coated with zinc, and zinc anodes are used for corrosion reduction in exposed or buried steel and iron pipes and structures.
@werehatrack And presuming you aren’t deficient, zinc is only additionally useful if you take it in the first couple of days of a cold to somewhat reduce symptoms and shorten it by a few days. It can cause your taste to be “off” when you take zinc supplements.
The farm had an elderberry bush. I"d agree. They taste terrible. The “aunts” would make elderberry jam out of it which most of us refused to taste due to how crappy the berries tasted, but they seemed to like. I am presuming they loaded it with sugar.
So… Some melatonin that should be used occasionally. Dosed with zinc? That might help with colds but not general immunity. And probably doesn’t help with colds at all. Questionable at best in this application. And kind of in general. And there is no reason to combine them.
It you want to try melatonin which. Still should be used primarily to help reset your sleep cycle. Not an every night thing. You can get 1mg pills that you can use 2 of to get to a 2mg dose If you want. This is 12 bottles of nonsense for 168 “servings”.
Buying it without the zinc/branding bs. 360 1mg or if you take 2 to match their dose 180 for $10. 2 bottles not that you should even need that many…
I’m using the cvs bogo link cause Amazon was being weird with their link/advertising but they are like $4.55 a bottle. Walmart/Kroger/every one stocks melatonin in multiple brands in the vitamin aisle And doses. But 1-2mg should be a good place to start. Just not with this.
But again any brand in any store. I have used many cause nightshift. Then 2 jobs. On call… Etc it does help but this immunity nonsense… Ugh. Disappointed in the snakeoil
I just get 3mg melatonin-only tablets from a store. It’s actually pretty good, I feel like I get better sleep with them than I do otherwise. And they’re very useful for bringing my sleep schedule forward when I’m not quite sleepy yet.
12 bottles that expire in 7 months. Yeah that sounds like a good idea. As I said above in a reply to someone, if you are not zinc deficient there is no point in taking any (not to mention a common side effect is to screw up your taste while on it) unless you are taking it at the very beginning of a cold (just read a meta analysis about that the other day). Then it can reduce symptoms a bit and shorten it a bit.
@Kidsandliz one or two of these total whifs has happened before. Is very very rare but I’m still always disappointed. Even the cold zinc thing is eh… Scientifically but using that to mark up melatonin… As s daily sleep aid.
It feels like a gas station product for people with a cold desperate to get some sleep
Considering the size and price. That makes it make more sense. Not good sense. But take this bottle for a week and you’ll get better. You will no matter what. But sold as a 12 pack? No.
@Kidsandliz@mike808 ok. Yes. But in that small a bottle? Had to be planned for by the checkout than the dumbass at Vicks who came up with it got fired before it could tank and meh bought the aborted run
I heard from a friend that read on their Newsmax feed that a study of facebook groups favorable to alternative medicine treatments very definitively concluded that many people were saying these were the most fantastic boner pills they’ve ever taken.
The self-descrubed “male” participants claimed the zinc made them, quote, “so very hard” and all their partners loved it (also self-described as “female” by participants).
When does the Extreme Zinc version come out? Asking for a different friend.
When I really need a good night’s sleep (usually after one or more nights of insufficient rest), I take a combination of 3mg melatonin plus 10mg doxylamine succinate (an OTC antihistamine). Works a treat for occasional use, but I use it sparingly because it can have some minor but unpleasant side effects.
@Kidsandliz The “short” version of the study’s conclusions:
Conclusions In adult populations unlikely to be zinc deficient, there was some evidence suggesting zinc might prevent RTIs symptoms and shorten duration. Non-serious AEs may limit tolerability for some. The comparative efficacy/effectiveness of different zinc formulations and doses were unclear. The GRADE-certainty/quality of the evidence was limited by a high risk of bias, small sample sizes and/or heterogeneity. Further research, including SARS-CoV-2 clinical trials is warranted.
The “mights” and “mays” in that conclusion sure don’t come across as definitive, IMO.
@Kidsandliz No, I know what you said, I’m just mentioning that their conclusions look to be about the same as before this study was conducted. Which is why they added the “further study…” sentence at the end. (sounds to me like a request for further funding ) Zinc treatment for colds has been around for decades and if this study is the best science has today to show whether taking zinc does anything other than in your head, then I’ll personally conclude (I mean for using zinc myself) that unless a more definitive study comes along, for me it’s just more snake oil and placebo. How else could I possibly interpret that study???
@Kerig3 I am not questioning how you interpreted the study as that is what it said. I thought you were saying my comment was endorsing zinc using this study as proof which I was not, My comment was just “here is a weighted summary (meta analysis) of the research out there”.
What was entertaining to me was that this study came through my feed immediately before I posted it here. I didn’t even know about this meta analysis when I had posted earlier in this thread. My comments earlier in this thread were based on several earlier meta analyses that concluded zinc was marginally useful if and only if you took it practically immediately when having your first cold symptoms.
What none of them are measuring is whether or not people taking zinc for colds are deficient in zinc to begin with. What if only if you are deficient taking zinc helps with a cold but if you aren’t it doesn’t? That unmeasured variable might explain all the conflicting and equivocal findings.
Since some studies did find a minor effect (and some studies ruled out placebo effect by being “double blind” - although it might be hard to do that since zinc affects taste) likely under a very special set of circumstances it helps a little. What those circumstances are we don’t really know or we’d be measuring that in the studies. Doing that would then remove the ‘this study shows it helps, this one shows it doesn’t so we don’t know for sure’ problem… Right now, based on this more updated look, the preponderance of evidence (what a meta analysis tells you) shows is that it doesn’t look like it does much, if anything… but… we aren’t 100% positive.
@Kidsandliz I know you weren’t endorsing zinc because of your comments earlier, but nonetheless something got lost in translation. What a weird coincidence that this came to you at the same time this thread was happening…maybe you forgot to unplug your digital assistant?
I’m actually shocked that this is the extent of what we know about zinc interacting with our immune systems when products with zinc have been marketed and sold for decades for immune system health. Hell, in the past I’ve taken zinc to try to shorten colds, but I could never tell definitively whether it really helped or not, always wondering if I started using it early enough—was it not having an effect because of user error? But after skimming that analysis I’m thinking it might be more snake oil than anything else. I’ll save my money in the future.
@Kerig3 The Mayo Clinic has a huge database of any and all credible research they find that concerns “supplements” and “alternative/natural” so called “treatments”. Of course if something was effective pharma would figure out what the active ingredient was, purify it, do a clinical trial and if it came out on top (eg is working enough and safe enough) it would then become “traditional medicine”. Also this kind of crap isn’t regulated. The only thing they can’t do is claim outright medical benefit if it hasn’t been passed through the FDA to document that it actually does what they claim. As a result snake oil uses all sorts of weasel words so they aren’t called out on their unsubstantiated claims.
Specs
Supplement Facts / Instructions / Ingredients / Warnings:
What’s Included?
12x Bottles of Vicks Immunity Zzzs Immunity Support (336 tablets, 168 servings)
Price Comparison
$119.88 for 366 tablets at CVS
Warranty
90 days
Estimated Delivery
Monday, Nov 22 - Monday, Nov 29
Glad its not dingleberry flavor.
Your mother smelled of immunity Zzzs
@mexicantacos
And your father smelt of elderberries.
@mike808 I remembered that one wrong!
That is not how melatonin works
@thechinglish I mean, that’s how the Mayo Clinic says it works…mostly.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-melatonin/art-20363071
@ExtraMedium @thechinglish
Surprisingly they don’t say anything about dosage on that page. Possibly more information from Mayo here: https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-q-and-a-prepare-for-jet-lag-before-boarding-the-plane/
Apparently, lowering the melatonin dose to 0.5 mg or 0.3 mg works better than higher dose versions of the hormone:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/
“UpToDate, the gold standard research database used by doctors, agrees with these low doses. “We suggest the use of low, physiologic doses (0.1 to 0.5 mg) for insomnia or jet lag (Grade 2B). High-dose preparations raise plasma melatonin concentrations to a supraphysiologic level and alter normal day/night melatonin rhythms.” Mayo Clinic makes a similar recommendation: they recommend 0.5 mg. John Hopkins’ experts almost agree: they say “less is more” but end up chickening out and recommending 1 to 3 mg, which is well above what the studies would suggest.
Based on a bunch of studies that either favor the lower dose or show no difference between doses, plus clear evidence that 0.3 mg produces an effect closest to natural melatonin spikes in healthy people, plus UpToDate usually having the best recommendations, I’m in favor of the 0.3 mg number. I think you could make an argument for anything up to 1 mg. Anything beyond that and you’re definitely too high. Excess melatonin isn’t grossly dangerous, but tends to produce tolerance and might mess up your chronobiology in other ways. Based on anecdotal reports and the implausibility of becoming tolerant to a natural hormone at the dose you naturally have it, I would guess sufficiently low doses are safe and effective long term, but this is just a guess, and most guidelines are cautious in saying anything after three months or so.”
Another similar source/analysis:
https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
@ExtraMedium @psantora @thechinglish
TL;DR version:
Microdosing is the way to go.
Ask your doctor or licensed dealer about microdosing today!
@ExtraMedium @psantora @thechinglish I agree, i got the 3mg tabs, but i break them into like quarter tabs or less. A whole 3mg tab was harder to get to sleep with, and i would wake up much more groggy the next day.
overprotective father to daughter’s date: “don’t even think about sleeping with my daughter, boy”
date: “No sir! I plan on being wide awake through everything!”
@alacrity … well if that works out… ask him again after 30 years of marriage.
@pmarin Raymond called…
@bjango Your second name Fett by any chance?
I bought these at Walgreens a couple months ago. While they seem to be effective for helping me fall asleep, they smell/taste pretty bad. I stopped chewing them and hold my breath before taking them, followed by chugging water to avoid any lingering taste.
@gatwood I have that reaction to zinc. And stevia – ick.
@gatwood Yeah I’ve never tried chewable. The ingredients look OK but it’s probably the “Lemon Balm” (which doesn’t take like Lemon) that gives it a very herbal flavor – a local store had a Lemon Balm liquor on clearance and it was… weird.)
I’ve used the sublingual (small easy-dissolving tablet under your tongue) for melatonin and they were OK. Kind of a non-taste just a sensation but I was OK with them. Never sure if they did much good though.
Note that all of us reading this now are up at night, presumably before bed, on screens reading and typing on the internet. And maybe with a TV on in the background. we probably should be reading books by candlelight before bed.
@gatwood, that sounds kinda like someone taking a pill.
@gatwood @pmarin I would go more with the elderberry being the culprit.
Too bad so many bottles at the high price.
Would probably try 6 bottles for $15.
I tend to try things like this for a while, see how it goes. Then forget or choose to do something else. Maybe come back. But a case of 12 bottles is just overkill unless I have a whole lot of insomniac friends – who are willing to try unknown pills I got for them on the Internetz. (even I would be reluctant if one of my friends said “here I got a case of these pills – have some!”)
@pmarin you can pick up some 1mg melatonin in any vitamin aisle in any grocery store for under $10 in one bottle. Usually ~200 pills. Take 2 if needed to match this. The rest is BS. And it is not intended to be an everyday thing anyway. Just to help reset your clock
Does cause some more vivid dreams for me. Fun side effect usually
@pmarin functioning Amazon link. $4.79 and a 25% off on first subscribe and save check box. Cancel after first shipment as usual. I have used this brand and others over the years because nightshift, two jobs, on call… Etc etc. It does it’s thing but it’s not really a sleeping pill. But no reason to spend $30.
https://www.amazon.com/Natures-Bounty-Melatonin-180-Tablets/dp/B0013NB6ZQ
@pmarin @unksol
Our local DG, Dollar General always has regular/plain melatonin for way less than any other place. (about $2. for 60 tablets) Even the regular dollar store, where everything is $1.00 carries some brand of this. Can’t beat $1.00, that place is great!
I have plenty bottles of Tequila to maintain a healthy Immune system
Wow! Less than 8.7 cents per half serving!
Perfect for Father’s Day.
Melatonin, okay, yeah, but zinc is better used for corrosion control than immunity “support”. And anybody that thinks elderberries are delicious has never tried to eat one.
@werehatrack corrosion control?
@katbyter
Galvanized iron or steel is coated with zinc, and zinc anodes are used for corrosion reduction in exposed or buried steel and iron pipes and structures.
@werehatrack Have you seen how much water some people contain? The zinc is a great addition.
@werehatrack And presuming you aren’t deficient, zinc is only additionally useful if you take it in the first couple of days of a cold to somewhat reduce symptoms and shorten it by a few days. It can cause your taste to be “off” when you take zinc supplements.
The farm had an elderberry bush. I"d agree. They taste terrible. The “aunts” would make elderberry jam out of it which most of us refused to taste due to how crappy the berries tasted, but they seemed to like. I am presuming they loaded it with sugar.
Was interested in this until comments mentioned the taste. Has anyone found a way to tolerate how elderberries taste?
@JT954
Sweeten the heck out of them with something that isn’t stevia or aspartame.
@JT954 I love elderberries. My grandmother used to make elderberry jelly. I wish i could find some to make a batch.
But the zinc make these meh for me. Now if they were a gummy rather than cut up pieces of chalk, I would consider it
@JT954 Shove 'em up your butt?
(asking for my friend’s cousin)
@JT954 @werehatrack I know my aunt’s liked the elderberry jam they made but they also added a ton of sugar. To me it then tasted bad plus too sweet.
@JT954
By far the most effective is to never eat them.
Cheap prevention. Is that really a good combination?
@hchavers I’m no medical professional but as I understand it, relatively small quantities outperform a cure by a factor of 16.
So… Some melatonin that should be used occasionally. Dosed with zinc? That might help with colds but not general immunity. And probably doesn’t help with colds at all. Questionable at best in this application. And kind of in general. And there is no reason to combine them.
It you want to try melatonin which. Still should be used primarily to help reset your sleep cycle. Not an every night thing. You can get 1mg pills that you can use 2 of to get to a 2mg dose If you want. This is 12 bottles of nonsense for 168 “servings”.
Buying it without the zinc/branding bs. 360 1mg or if you take 2 to match their dose 180 for $10. 2 bottles not that you should even need that many…
https://www.cvs.com/shop/nature-s-bounty-melatonin-tablets-1mg-180ct-prodid-1013008
I’m using the cvs bogo link cause Amazon was being weird with their link/advertising but they are like $4.55 a bottle. Walmart/Kroger/every one stocks melatonin in multiple brands in the vitamin aisle And doses. But 1-2mg should be a good place to start. Just not with this.
@unksol fixed the Amazon link
https://www.amazon.com/Natures-Bounty-Melatonin-180-Tablets/dp/B0013NB6ZQ
But again any brand in any store. I have used many cause nightshift. Then 2 jobs. On call… Etc it does help but this immunity nonsense… Ugh. Disappointed in the snakeoil
I just get 3mg melatonin-only tablets from a store. It’s actually pretty good, I feel like I get better sleep with them than I do otherwise. And they’re very useful for bringing my sleep schedule forward when I’m not quite sleepy yet.
12 bottles that expire in 7 months. Yeah that sounds like a good idea. As I said above in a reply to someone, if you are not zinc deficient there is no point in taking any (not to mention a common side effect is to screw up your taste while on it) unless you are taking it at the very beginning of a cold (just read a meta analysis about that the other day). Then it can reduce symptoms a bit and shorten it a bit.
What did meh do? Buy out a snake oil store?
@Kidsandliz one or two of these total whifs has happened before. Is very very rare but I’m still always disappointed. Even the cold zinc thing is eh… Scientifically but using that to mark up melatonin… As s daily sleep aid.
It feels like a gas station product for people with a cold desperate to get some sleep
Considering the size and price. That makes it make more sense. Not good sense. But take this bottle for a week and you’ll get better. You will no matter what. But sold as a 12 pack? No.
@Kidsandliz They bought it out of a vehicle’s trunk…this vehicle’s trunk…
@unksol
You mean with this I’ll get better in just 2 weeks but without it it will take 14 days???
@Kidsandliz @unksol Are you sure? I think it might take a fortnight to be effective.
@Kidsandliz @mike808 ok. Yes. But in that small a bottle? Had to be planned for by the checkout than the dumbass at Vicks who came up with it got fired before it could tank and meh bought the aborted run
I heard from a friend that read on their Newsmax feed that a study of facebook groups favorable to alternative medicine treatments very definitively concluded that many people were saying these were the most fantastic boner pills they’ve ever taken.
The self-descrubed “male” participants claimed the zinc made them, quote, “so very hard” and all their partners loved it (also self-described as “female” by participants).
When does the Extreme Zinc version come out? Asking for a different friend.
@mike808
Funny until I remembered just how low we’ve gone, with no bottom yet in sight.
When I really need a good night’s sleep (usually after one or more nights of insufficient rest), I take a combination of 3mg melatonin plus 10mg doxylamine succinate (an OTC antihistamine). Works a treat for occasional use, but I use it sparingly because it can have some minor but unpleasant side effects.
The “word” on Zinc and colds
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/962467
@Kidsandliz The “short” version of the study’s conclusions:
The “mights” and “mays” in that conclusion sure don’t come across as definitive, IMO.
@Kerig3 I didn’t say definitive in that it worked, I said the “word” meaning current state of affairs.
@Kidsandliz No, I know what you said, I’m just mentioning that their conclusions look to be about the same as before this study was conducted. Which is why they added the “further study…” sentence at the end. (sounds to me like a request for further funding
) Zinc treatment for colds has been around for decades and if this study is the best science has today to show whether taking zinc does anything other than in your head, then I’ll personally conclude (I mean for using zinc myself) that unless a more definitive study comes along, for me it’s just more snake oil and placebo. How else could I possibly interpret that study??? 
@Kerig3 I am not questioning how you interpreted the study as that is what it said. I thought you were saying my comment was endorsing zinc using this study as proof which I was not, My comment was just “here is a weighted summary (meta analysis) of the research out there”.
What was entertaining to me was that this study came through my feed immediately before I posted it here. I didn’t even know about this meta analysis when I had posted earlier in this thread. My comments earlier in this thread were based on several earlier meta analyses that concluded zinc was marginally useful if and only if you took it practically immediately when having your first cold symptoms.
What none of them are measuring is whether or not people taking zinc for colds are deficient in zinc to begin with. What if only if you are deficient taking zinc helps with a cold but if you aren’t it doesn’t? That unmeasured variable might explain all the conflicting and equivocal findings.
Since some studies did find a minor effect (and some studies ruled out placebo effect by being “double blind” - although it might be hard to do that since zinc affects taste) likely under a very special set of circumstances it helps a little. What those circumstances are we don’t really know or we’d be measuring that in the studies. Doing that would then remove the ‘this study shows it helps, this one shows it doesn’t so we don’t know for sure’ problem… Right now, based on this more updated look, the preponderance of evidence (what a meta analysis tells you) shows is that it doesn’t look like it does much, if anything… but… we aren’t 100% positive.
@Kidsandliz I know you weren’t endorsing zinc because of your comments earlier, but nonetheless something got lost in translation.
What a weird coincidence that this came to you at the same time this thread was happening…maybe you forgot to unplug your digital assistant? 
I’m actually shocked that this is the extent of what we know about zinc interacting with our immune systems when products with zinc have been marketed and sold for decades for immune system health. Hell, in the past I’ve taken zinc to try to shorten colds, but I could never tell definitively whether it really helped or not, always wondering if I started using it early enough—was it not having an effect because of user error? But after skimming that analysis I’m thinking it might be more snake oil than anything else. I’ll save my money in the future.
@Kerig3 The Mayo Clinic has a huge database of any and all credible research they find that concerns “supplements” and “alternative/natural” so called “treatments”. Of course if something was effective pharma would figure out what the active ingredient was, purify it, do a clinical trial and if it came out on top (eg is working enough and safe enough) it would then become “traditional medicine”. Also this kind of crap isn’t regulated. The only thing they can’t do is claim outright medical benefit if it hasn’t been passed through the FDA to document that it actually does what they claim. As a result snake oil uses all sorts of weasel words so they aren’t called out on their unsubstantiated claims.