President Trump???

@PlacidPenguin I blame you for this…

@Sabre99

Please read

@capguncowboy @Barney

I voted for the color purple…

@PlacidPenguin @Barney
/image vote purple.

@aetris

@lisaviolet

25% of the people have spoken!

@MehnofLaMehncha No. Sadly it was more like %15.

@Teripie My bad. It’s 18%.

@Mehrocco_Mole

http://www.snopes.com/simpsons-trump-prediction/

Images from the ‘The Simpsons’ showing Donald Trump’s announcement of his presidential candidacy are from 2015, not 2000.

Coincidence? I think not…

Correct not a coincidence when they used the footage as the source image for the animation.

@Ignorant But it was on the internet! It has to be true! Should of checked Snopes first.

/giphy blush

@Ignorant hang on, does that also mean the simpson’s didn’t fabricate the word Meh.?

@Yoda_Daenerys @Ignorant

Origin of meh

@Mehrocco_Mole

http://shirt.woot.com/offers/the-internet-is-never-wrong

@narfcake

@serpent dude, I’m not sure you understand the ramifications and permutations ahead.

Remember how much fun the last Bush administration was? The next 4 years will make that look awesome.

Sure, bonfires are fun- just look at Rome when Nero ran things.

@serpent
You appear to like outsider disruption. It has a theoretical appeal to me. The appeal to me IRL varies.

Apart from political morals, ethics, values, agendas: political systems and governmental systems are just that - systems. All of our cultural and legal systems have ways they operate, ways they normalize, ways they evolve, ways they sudden-shift.

Every complex social system will operate in some normative way most of the time. If it didn’t, it would barely operate at all, and something else would replace it.

Same for politicians and bureaucracies. They understand and can manipulate a political given system or instrument more effectively than most of us. So they endure and have influence.

We will always have bureaucracies and politicians and common paths of influence.

@alacrity I am not sure you understand it either. Sure, Hillary is what media feeds us as stable, tolerant and experienced. In reality, she’s a war-hawk, that’s funded by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and weapon-manufacturing cartels. Hillary’s presidency is an almost sure bet for a full-blown WWIII and death of life as we know it. Trump, however, promised to end the interventions. The US should withdraw from meddling in the Middle-Eastern affairs and try to forge friendly relationships with countries, instead of intimidating them, like neo-cons (aka Hillary, Bushes & McCain) do. We need to cooperate for a safer world, not move it towards a nuclear apocalypse in the name of democracy. If you try to force something (tolerance/democracy) on a group of people - they would resist it. If you truly want a free and tolerant world - let the progress be natural. What Hillary’s methods would do is radicalizing and polarizing the entire world.

I have my concerns about Democrats’ recent internal politics as well, like Obamacare, taxes and force-feeding “tolerance” to people (which is in itself a form of fascism), but the main reason I am against Hillary is her international politics course.

@f00l See my reply above.

@serpent Of course, wanting to nuke anything that moves is way better.
/image it’s coming right for us

@serpent some of your points are salient and valid, but i disagree on others. Where i find horror is in the potential cabinet appointees and supreme court judges that will form this nations policies both short and long term. Say what you will of the progress made over the last 8 years- but it has indeed been progress, with the facts to back it up. W Bush will look like a rose compared to Trump’s poison ivy; because he has no experience, he will rely on old-guard conservatives who have proven to be far more dangerous than what a Clinton administration would have been. The thought of Christy as US Attorney General? Sarah Palin in any official capacity? Newt Gingritch? Rudy Giuliani? Are you really ok with that? Are you genuinely ok with tripling our debt within 30 months when he fails in renegotiating terms and our credit ratings drop, and going into a true depression within 5 years as the house of cards collapses? These aren’t opined views- these are legitimate non-partisan scenarios layed out by global economists.

Rome and Nero have never been so relevant.

@ELUNO I think your view of the situation is far too influenced by the mainstream media. They’ve been portraying him as an aggressor and Hillary as a defender (of American supremacy and exceptionalism), while in reality it’s backwards. He might’ve said something over the top (thousands of times), but it’s all rhetoric. As far as actual actions are concerned, Hillary is way more likely to bomb the hell out of those who disagree with her.

@alacrity I am not a conservative - I always test as radical left on all the political compass tests, which I can agree with, all things considered. It’s also important to say, that I was for Obama in 2008 and 2012 - he’s way better than McCain and Romney. At the same time, I think a lot of Obama’s changes have been malicious, as in:

1. Obamacare further broke an already broken system of healthcare. It was disastrous before, it’s even worse now.

2. Bush’s interventionism policies continued under Obama full speed - the Middle East situation is worse than before, Ukraine is destroyed, Europe is flooded with immigrants. All because of US-backed violent revolutions, led by Islamists in the Middle East and by radical nationalist in Ukraine.

3. The economical situation didn’t change much - and the debt is still there.

4. The US is divided like never before. If anything, intolerance, hatred and racial divide grew exponentially under Obama.

Are there good things? Of course there are:

1. Weed is gradually going legal, which is good.
2. Gay marriage is legal, which is good.
3. …what else? I don’t really remember anything else.

Important to note, that there are just as many conservatives in the Democratic party, and Hillary is a very conservative politician. She’s NOT a protector of ethnic or female rights, she just uses them as a convenient instrument to further her own agenda. She’s pretty much exactly like Bush to me and I loathe him with passion.

TL;DR: Hillary is not movement forward, it’s a movement towards an inevitable destruction. Trump? He’s a jump into the unknown. What he brings - we’re yet to see. But he brings a chance and that’s better than nothing.

It took a day for reality to sink in for me …

Hillary is not movement forward, it’s a movement towards an inevitable destruction. Trump? He’s a jump into the unknown. What he brings - we’re yet to see. But he brings a chance and that’s better than nothing.

@serpent While I won’t jump to conclusions about inevitable destruction, she is a very experienced politician, status quo, inclusive of all the controversy and backroom dealings – and that’s why I can understand why in spite all the issues with Trump, he still got votes.

FWIW, I did not vote for him, but enough Americans did. That is the process, and I respect that we have the freedom to have done so. And if things don’t work out, we have processes in place already to address that too.

@serpent well, let’s address your points:

1: Obamacare was crippled by congress- initially intended to cover the people under an umbrella like many other nations with single payer insurance, paid for by an additional tax of 2.3% of gross wages. Not perfect, but what ever is. Congress blocked any and all attempts to refine said bill or even compromise- and what we got was fed into the cesspool by insurance and healthcare lobbyists. Any successful implementation of a national healthcare mandate was obstructed like a vicodin addict’s colon.

2: W’s intervention policies were indeed furthered- there really is no excuse for what’s happened in Syria, nor Libya regardless of how nasty the leadership- but c’mon, blaming Obama or even seeing complicity in the Ukraine is a stretch, and I think you know that. Conjecture would point to defense contractors like Lockheed and General Dynamics stirring the pot with arms sales (my stock portfolio includes these, and they’ve shown consistent growth for close to 15 years) and political influence, both domestic and international. The industrial military complex is real- and Trump plans on doubling our spending on that front, without being able to pay for it.

3: The economical situation hasn’t changed? Wow.
(the debt, however does now include the 3 failed wars from the prior administration, which ironically, the prior administration black-listed and did not include in the budget). I think the market would show a bit of positive growth in the last 8 years, as well as unemployment dropping below 5%, oil prices hitting all time lows, and our own foreign policies restoring status where it had been lost, prior. Not perfect, but what is?

4: A divided nation. Absolutely. And yes- Obama is definitely at fault by being not only black, but a democrat, too. The polarization of America has been in existence for all of it’s life, and perpetuated by… aw, hell- you know people hate people who are different in any way from themselves, be it color, wealth, status, religion, hair color, etc.

Don’t gimme “it’s Obama’s fault”. That’s patently bullshit.

Your positives-

1: Cannabis prohibition is gradually lifting.

Unless, of course, Christy is made AG- and there’s a 3/5 chance of that. Trump himself has stated his belief that cannabis legality is not something he’ll allow- and as soon as the tethers of office are attached, my view shows the DEA in full riot gear across 28 states.

2: Gay marriage is legal.

Not for long- the first supreme court justice Trump appoints will be a conservative Christian to mollify his base- watch as the complexion of civil liberties is changed, gradually, over the next 2 years.

3: You’re right- not much else. There is no longer a divided government- one party controls all 3 houses. The same party that shut down the government over an inflated crisis- national debt- that has, and always will exist as long as there is a nation. Get over it, pay the bills and keep going. That little stunt cost us $30 billion, denied services to the most vulnerable including wounded vets who are owed and due every benefit promised, shut down local government services like county courts, health services, libraries and schools- crippling most to the point they have yet to recover.

Yeah. The republican party.

yay.

I’ve seen this movie before- it doesn’t end well.

@alacrity The stock market… being propped up.
How long can 0% interest last?

Obamacare isn’t perfect? --ROFL-- I agree with you there…

Obama had his first two years to go crazy with his stupid ideas. It’s not because he’s black or because he’s a Democrat, his ideas were crap. Not even all of his own party went with all of it. Finally the Republicans also have the House & Senate (slim majority). The D’s had 2 years of it, let’s try the R’s now.

@daveinwarsh if you don’t already know what this means, look it up:

BOHICA

@alacrity Uhhh… OK. Let’s say we disagree.
This is why I should avoid politics on meh & woot. You all are really a great group of people & I honestly don’t want to upset anyone here.

What we need here is something to cheer everyone up.

How about a sparkly rainbow unicorn cat with butterfly wings?

@alacrity Very well said. The major point on which I disagree is ‘…the complexion of civil liberties is changed, gradually…’ I expect that changes will be massive, and sooner than later, because it will overwhelm opposition. There is no need to ease into anything; no effective resistance will be mounted. I also expect that shortly after inauguration, there will be massive terrorist attacks on US soil, and the administration will do exactly what it said: bomb the shit out of whatever group/country/region is perceived to be at fault. The US public will be whipped into a deliberate frenzy, and we’ll be off to the races.

@OldCatLady ma’am, all i can see is civil war within 2 generarions. With any luck- i’ll be compost by then.

@daveinwarsh That kittencorn is a lie.

http://www.teeturtle.com/products/the-magical-kittencorn

@alacrity My reply:

1. I’ve read the original ideas about Obamacare and it’s still broken. The US healthcare is fundamentally broken. And I am not defending republicans, they are just as corrupt as democrats are.
2. Are you crazy? The Ukraine revolution was funded by the US directly. Nuland and McCain (the former being Clinon’s agent) encouraged it and promoted it - and also sent the exiled Georgian president (who’s wanted for treason by the pro-European Georgian government I might add and had asylum in the US) as a governor to Ukraine. Bottom line - Ukraine is currently controlled by the American marionettes.
3. The numbers look good on paper, but it’s all manipulated - especially the employment rates (not gonna dig into that right now). In truth, the situation is still pretty bad. The abyss between the middle class and and the rich keeps widening and welfare people keep feasting.
4. I think the divide is a DIRECT consequence of the government’s politics of siding with blacks, feminists and latinos. The should be equality - the Obama government promoted inequality under the guise of tolerance.

Now, I am not saying it’s all Obama’s fault - for all I know the US president doesn’t control much. Perhaps he wanted the best for the country, but all got fucked up by the bipartisan alliance for the status quo.

Rest:

1. I doubt anybody on the federal level can stop the further legalization of Cannabis.
2. Again, I don’t think so. But we’ll see.
3. As far as I am concerned, both Republican and Democratic parties are the same. I don’t see any difference. They don’t really care about people, just about money and their own personal agendas. So to say, I don’t think the Democrats would be a better choice. The only points the parties converge on are the ones that make things worse.

To repeat my point, I am not for either party. But I think Trump is a safer choice as far as further military disasters are concerned, as Hillary would’ve started a WWIII without question. Trump is an isolationist, Hillary is an interventionist. As a person, do you want to keep your own opinion (and voice it!) or get punched in the face each time you say something? Because I think Hillary is that kind of bully.

Regarding the “civil liberties” thing - I don’t see it getting any better. Both Republicans and Democrats restrict them further - both under Bush and under Obama. It only got worse.

@serpent ok, i see common ground here: both dems & repubs are flip sides of the same coin, and useless as teats on a nun.

I simply see evil on both sides, with a greater chance of survival had the left won out, rather than the right.

Im old enough to recall the rhetoric of a populist leader in the late 30’s and can correlate the vitriol of the American people into what amounts to suicide.

Im a centrist in deep hatred of all party affiliations- i see no way out of this, and pray i compost before the fires are lit. I don’t like s’mores.

<end>

@alacrity I don’t have any illusions about either party. But I think if we want the world to survive - we need somebody, who’s not bent on regime change. Regime change is something the US should stop doing from now on, as all it brings is ruins. Monuments of old are lost to religious fanatics, brought on and financed by the US.

NOW, there are some things I definitely disagree with Trump on - environment for once. I think going renewable should be one of the top priorities for the US and for the world. I think we should maintain and protect what is left of the nature. I think there is definitely global warming going on. I also disagree with him & other reps about abortions - we should provide federal funding to abortion clinics instead and remove christian influence from the government policies.

But at the same time I think Democrats are going too far with pushing their equal rights agenda. I.e. I think people should be able to hire and fire people without considering their race and sex. Equality means equality, not mandatory enforced preference.

In the end, at this point for the US, Trump is a way better choice, than Clinton. We need peace, not wars for private interests.

@serpent Fascinating- you say “we need somebody, who’s not bent on regime change.” yet that’s exactly what Trump represented himself as- an outsider immune to the influence of power and money.
another point being you feel Clinton would start WW3- regardless of Trump’s statements and inconsistencies therein. This is the guy who asked “And why can’t we use the nuclear option?” and that he’d order- directly- any of our naval vessels or aircraft confronted by perceived hostiles to defend themselves without hesitation- “shoot first and ask questions later”, referring to incidents in the Strait of Hormuz with the Iranian Navy, and Russian (or Chinese- it’s late and I’m fuzzy) aircraft buzzing a destroyer- action on either resulting in more than hurt feelings.

This guy is dangerous beyond the pale.

That he’s a… well, shit- you know what he is. And still, he’s a better choice than a woman who not only has spent decades doing this shit- has also made a living at it. She has skin in the game- but noooooo. She’s crooked Hillary.

Seriously- we both know the system’s fucked up- but y’all think an idiot (and I’m being kind, here) can make a positive change.

I don’t. I’ve got 6 decades+ of observation, research, study and witness of this bullshit to back me up- he’s PT Barnum in a better suit, and I do so regret you will find out the hard way.

The environment shit- yeah, we agree.

As to the Dem’s forcefeeding equality- we kinda needed it. I’ve stood by family who’ve had to hide being gay for fear of losing their job or home. I’ve seen the shit racist and religious exrtemists pull- and it is not what this Nation stands for. We are better than that- and if you find it acceptable to discriminate over color/orientation/religion instead of judging by the quality of the person- and making it a law that you must do the latter pisses you off- you got issues, dude.

That makes you a shitty human being.

I get anarchy. I get being angry at how shit is. But I don’t get how an absolutely ignorant failure of humanity’s worst will better things.

Lastly, I reiterate:

I sincerely regret you will learn the hard way.

@alacrity Whew… someone is worked up…
With 5+ decades of observing quite a lot of these issues (I didn’t care about anything but toys and candybars for the first decade so I didn’t count it), I see that someone needs to remember that… America Will Survive.
Anyone that thinks this is the worst thing that has or could ever happen… Needs a fluffy little puppy.

@daveinwarsh yeah but with what deep hole to dig out of?

@alacrity There aren’t enough stars on the internet for me to give you. Having just finished lunch at work, surrounded by a bunch of ‘rural’ coworkers (I live in the Philly burbs and travel about 40 miles to very rural South Jersey for work), my stomach is once again in knots at the utter ignorance I heard. Part of our conversation was focused on the protests. Mind you, I believe we all have the right to protest but as soon as it turns violent, go home or get what’s coming to you during your evening in jail. Our radiologist (yeah, rich white guy) claimed that all (not just a few) the protesters were being paid for by Democratic groups. He then questioned why it’s an issue of racism for the protesters. Seriously man? You’re obviously intelligent, you did manage to graduate from medical school. Life is just one big WTF right now…

@cinoclav thanks, man- i appreciate the praise, and offer my sympathies for the stuff being passed around like a can of DDT at a Boy Scout camp I went to in the 60’s. The rhetoric is just as toxic and long lasting.

The protests have become a living, flowing thing born of frustration and anger- no longer tied to just one issue, they encompass the angst of generations and those who feel it ain’t right, the “it” being the bitch du jour. That the effete white dude claims it’s the dem’s doing is no surprise- he’s as blind to the truth as the BML kids. Protests now lack direction, control or point- they just want to burn it all down.

Every single one on all sides looks in the mirror, but never looks with objective eyes- we’re never the bad guy, it’s always them that must pay for our sins- and thinking that maybe, just maybe there is a hint of responsibility staring back.

The choice has been made. Nero takes command next year.

@alacrity This election: We have a lot of problems with our house. The plumbing is worn out, the electrical is inefficient and costly, and the neighborhood isn’t as nice as it used to be. We don’t know how to fix any of that, so we are just going to torch the place, burn it to the ground. Most building contractors are liars and ripoffs, so we won’t hire any of them to rebuild the place. We’re going to hire the guy that runs the bowling alley for the rebuild. Sure, he knows nothing about house construction and doesn’t care if he builds it properly as he’s not the one that has to live there, but at least the house he builds will be different ftom the old one.

@moondrake y’know, if it were just the house you owned and lived in- well, you’re a grown up and you can do crazy shit if you want. The odds are against it- like “dropping a glass off the roof of a 20 story building onto a concrete parking lot and it not shattering” low, but hey it could work out.

But it’s not.

It’s our house, too. Flawed as it is- it’s still not just yours, and it is the only one we have. So effectively, you’re fuckin’ with the roof over my head, and I take that shit seriously- don’t be surprised when I do everything and anything I can to stop the wrecking crew from destroying my home.

And don’t be surprised- when the dust has settled- we come looking for the fuck-wits who hired them, and express our dismay at the poor life choices they made with a fun game of “Nanook and the baby harp seal”.

It will not end well for any of us.

@alacrity I was not speaking in support of the “burn it down” mentality. Even though an awful lot of contractors (and politicians) are corrupt and untrustworthy, I still hire the best ones I can find to manage the problems with my aging house (political system). Having grown up in an extremely chaotic household, change for it’s own sake is simply never a value I support. No matter how bad some people think things are now, they most definitely can get worse. Just watch the world news. Even the poorest American with the darkest future has it great compared to most of the people on this overcrowded, war torn planet. Destroying what we have in a fit of pique is exactly the opposite of what I advocate.

@moondrake you’ve summed it up brilliantly in that last one.

@alacrity

ma’am, all i can see is civil war within 2 generarions. With any luck- i’ll be compost by then.

I read your comment last Thursday and I dismissed it. I even chuckled. But as I have intently watched the events of just the last four days unfold, your words kept nagging at me in the back of my mind.

In my opinion, if he were to be assassinated, we may see it - a civil war - following almost immediately. If he takes office and subsequently he is quickly impeached - within say 100 days - a great many people will perish in the turmoil and unrest that will undoubtedly follow. As for what I feel we are in for during his term in office if he survives it - well we’re all fucked. Not just Democrats - each and every last one of us.

There’s no way any of this ends well - and regrettably and reprehensibly both assassination or impeachment are absolutely imaginable.

“I’m deporting up to 3 million illegal aliens beginning the day I take office”. Great, give our military a giant heaping hot ration of shit for announcing their intentions against ISIL well in advance and then turn around and do the same god damn thing with a group of individuals deeply entrenched on American soil. I’m betting a few hundred thousand of those 3 million might be in a position where they have nothing to lose. Criminals aren’t stupid. They’ll quickly realize that the secret service can and will be completely overrun if they choose to act as a mob or join efforts. They’ve already proven that they can effectively communicate and coordinate their illegal enterprises under the intelligence radar of Homeland Security. And those with interests aligned against Trump finding a fanatical to be a bad actor among Mexican nationals living here illegally may be easier than ISIL procuring a zealot to wear a vest and blow himself to hell in a cafe in the middle of Baghdad. Money is always the larger god. Hell, the very existence of Trump as the presumptive 45th proves that. If they kill Trump, they probably won’t stop there - even limited successes may be rewarding. Just look at the shit they do in Northern Mexico now - the cartels run that shit. And they do it with terror. Trump may have just brought it right here to our collective doorstep. And if we thought the last time we opened internment camps was a mistake, just wait for the humanitarian disaster of FEMA camps full of Mexicans to pull quickly to number 1.

As for impeachment where do I even begin? I know where it will end though. There’s only so much shit the Republican party is going to take - and Steve Bannon is very likely that last bit of proverbial shit. They’ll find something to put an end to all of it sooner than later and wrap it up in a tight and tidy bow.

All I know for certain is that I will not be on US soil on Friday, January 20th and I dare not be travelling with a US passport. I’m fortunate enough to possess documents issued on Saint Kitts and Nevis in addition to holding a US passport - I’m lucky and I won’t be here. If there’s a fukobukuro on inauguration day, I’ll gladly miss it. I’m gone baby. Gone.

@drfeelgood Certainly (and as you say, regrettably) what you’ve written is all completely possible. But, just as likely for any of what you have put forth to come to pass, so also is it just as likely to not. Personally, I’m a bit more concerned about China or Russia taking huge jabs at us immediately following inauguration. He’s not being very successful at surrounding himself with people of substantive experience to fill key roles within his administration. He’ll quickly realize he cannot do it all himself, and he can’t stand not being in complete control. And he has no experience. None. Our country is in real danger if no one with any experience will work for him (or be allowed to) . . . He’s got to stop building a camarilla, but in all likelihood that is the only reality he will (read: CAN) accept. I would hate to be in the position of being asked to serve in this man’s administration (or under it).

Never before - more now than at any other time of transition - has the rest of the world realized just how truly and deeply vulnerable we are while in this political juxtaposition.

Oh - and just for putting it in my head -

@drfeelgood kinda sucks when you see permutations once dismissed, now as viable outcomes, yeah?

where I see the potential- and the likelihood- for civil war is the rate of escalation that is evident in people’s reactions to perceived injustices (regardless of their validity) committed against the public.

be it the BLM movement, civil liberties, political climate change, climate change itself, etc- the subject of protest no longer matters; one issue melds into the others as liquids mix together into a toxic flow, and as pressure rises… the inevitable blast will not be cathartic- merely destructive.

as to the possibility of Nero’s “elimination”- that would change little. George R.R. Martin wrote a short story, decades ago, called “The Candidate”. it is chilling- and well worth the time to source and read- in it’s relevance. where it bottom lines at is that you can cut off the head, and two more spring back. the “hydra” scenario that emerged when the second invasion of Iraq and the subsequent chaos that follows in the region now takes it one step further, and caution has been dismissed entirely.

what we face now, only days after the election, shows where we are headed:

chaos.

from the assembly of Nero’s cabinet, to the nation-wide revolt in the streets, and the apathetic response of those not directly effected at the moment, i see the mixture of volatile compounds that will result extremist factions from all sides exploding into a fireball. those who sit idly by, thinking life will go on, undisturbed, are the ones who will act out the most viscerally when the house of cards collapses and catches fire.

promised trade tariffs will result in fewer goods and higher prices. lower sales will cause incomes to fall, jobs eliminated, families forced to choose between feeding their pets or feeding themselves.

food prices will continue to rise as natural conditions shift and viable sources dry up, others that once fed millions inexpensively now owned by major corporate interests intent on turning a profit with maximum r.o.i. to pad their bottom line- all in the name of keeping america safe and jobs for all.

mass deportations will cause infrastructures that supported the niche market to fail, creating more desperate reactions for survival.

anti immigrant sentiments today are bringing an all new level of violence and vitriol- demeaning all involved, and lowering the bar to animalistic levels not seen in a century.

add fears of outside terrorism as well as domestic- we’ll have a couple nutjobs express themselves messily- and the pressure gauge passes from red into the UV range.

we’ve passed the edge of the cliff- we’ve become lemmings.

@alacrity I’ve never been more relieved that we didn’t have kids than I am right now.

@serpent Had kind of a Rick Perry moment there, dincha?

@serpent The idea of chaos appeals to me but as you can see, the swamp is not being drained…IT"S GOING FUCKING CONDO!

@suewalsh1 Where?

@TheMonkeyKing And the condo association fees are going to be out of this world high…

@TheMonkeyKing That’s pretty much why I am saying Hillary lovers should chill. Trump won’t destroy their beloved hegemony too much, they (the actual rulers beyond the veil) won’t allow him. But I hope he at least provides a certain impulse in the right direction. Very enthusiastic about Tulsi Gabbard and Michael Flynn (both democrats, by the way!) getting significant roles in the new government.

@serpent Waaaay back on Thu, Nov 10th 2016 at 5:16pm eastern you wrote: Are there good things? Of course there are:

1. Weed is gradually going legal, which is good.
2. Gay marriage is legal, which is good.
3. …what else? I don’t really remember anything else.

It gave me a chuckle at the time, when I really needed a chuckle (actually I needed strong drugs). Remember during the Repub debate in 2012 when Perry couldn’t remember the 3rd agency he was gonna dismantle? Your #3 above reminded me of that. But they put my comment so far below your comment that it seemed like a non sequitur. Sorry for the confusion.

@suewalsh1 Ah, haha, got it! Got the reference too. Sorry, it’s been a few weeks. My memory is not like it used to be when I was young (a couple of years ago). Getting old, like Rick Perry.

@serpent Loved it when he started wearing glasses to make him look smart. They said he was on some pretty good drugs that night for a back injury. Note to self: don’t try to remember more than two things when taking good drugs!

@PlacidPenguin What exactly are they protesting? Democracy. Freedom. Constitutional protection of inalienable rights? The ignorance of American people regarding their knowledge of our government, by the people for the people, is embarrassing. Those same people are free to do this! Perhaps they should spend some time in the 3rd world and concentrate their intense energy to make the radical leaders of oppressed people treat everyone “fairly.” Oh, wait, they don’t have to, our US military heroes are doing that already.

@accelerator

In some places they were burning US flags (Philadelphia, NYC, Portland, and possibly Oakland).

Without giving my thoughts on all this, there were some peaceful protests, but not many.

Of course, when you have thousands at a protest, expectations and reality have a hard time working together.

@PlacidPenguin
If they were burning flags, they’re not exactly helping their own cause.

@f00l

Whether or not a person is happy with the election outcome, they should feel sad that some of these protests have resulted in vandalism, looting, and more…

@PlacidPenguin
Am sad about it.

@f00l

@PlacidPenguin and @FruityFraug are sad as well.

@f00l

Just found a video of a protester trying to destroy a transformer, with the crowd trying to stop him.

(Warning: contains NSFW language)

I get that people are upset.

But again;

Peaceful protesting is one thing. Looting, rioting and vandalism is another…

Yes, I’m aware that for the most part the protests aren’t extreme. Whether or not I agree with it (I’m not going to say in such a public place cough cough), I respect the fact that they are exhibiting free speech.

But if you look at the Twitter feed for the Portland police…

@PlacidPenguin I take issue with the Portland police and the media using the term “anarchist” in describing violent protesters. Not only is it assumptive of one’s ideology, they’re just plain using it incorrectly. Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates self-governed societies based on voluntary institutions. Anarchists harbor the belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion. Now more than ever everyone needs to fucking tone down the rhetoric. And we have an obligation to ourselves and to the world to get it right during times of civil unrest.

For the record, I personally evaluate anarchism as as unfeasible - perhaps even Utopian.

@Pavlov

I usually try not to follow the media when it comes to certain topics.

I avoided their opinions throughout the election year and postelection.

Primarily for the reason which you stated.

@Pavlov and all this time i thought you were only here to drop the f bomb.

From the Portland police: “Those not wanting to be associated w/anarchists should leave the area immediately. Peaceful protesters encouraged to go to Pioneer Square”

It can’t be just me shaking my head here . . . They really need to think shit through before they Tweet.

You have heard that Anarchists throw bombs, that they believe in violence, and that Anarchy means disorder and chaos. It is not surprising that you should think so . . . Anarchism is the very reverse of it; it means order without government and peace without violence.

https://libcom.org/library/what-is-anarchism-alexander-berkman-19

@Pavlov
Portland Police’s use of the label “anarchists” in their announcements was idiotic and not helpful. I presume those police know nothing of the history of political movements. I just hope the Portland Police are not generally among those police who are to be feared.

But there is some historical justification for the association of the terms “anarchy” and “anarchist” with acts of political violence.

The assasinations of Pres Wm McKinley and Empress Elisabeth of Austria poked my memory, so I went hunting in Wikipedia. From The “anarchist” article:

By the 1880s, people inside and outside the anarchist movement began to use the slogan, “propaganda of the deed” to refer to individual bombings, regicides, and tyrannicides. From 1905 onwards, the Russian counterparts of these anti-syndicalist anarchist-communists become partisans of economic terrorism and illegal ‘expropriations’." Illegalism as a practice emerged and within it “The acts of the anarchist bombers and assassins (“propaganda by the deed”) and the anarchist burglars (“individual reappropriation”) expressed their desperation and their personal, violent rejection of an intolerable society. Moreover, they were clearly meant to be exemplary invitations to revolt.”. France’s Bonnot Gang was the most famous group to embrace illegalism.

…

Numerous heads of state were assassinated between 1881 and 1914 by members of the anarchist movement, including Tsar Alexander II of Russia, President Sadi Carnot of France, Empress Elisabeth of Austria, King Umberto I of Italy, President William McKinley of the United States, King Carlos I of Portugal and King George I of Greece. McKinley’s assassin Leon Czolgosz claimed to have been influenced by anarchist and feminist Emma Goldman.

Propaganda of the deed was abandoned by the vast majority of the anarchist movement after World War I (1914–1918) and the 1917 October Revolution.

According to Wikipedia, more peaceful anarchists in Europe we’re deliberately destroyed by either communist or fascist militants, or by the devastation of two wars. In the US and other places not consumed by war or revolution, the old anarchist movements either withered or joined with the labor or with libertarians for the most part.

After WWII there have been a few active small overtly anarchist movements that usually hearten back to the non-destructive origins of the anarchy philosophy (which advocates that we simply govern ourselves in a civil fashion thru voluntary societies if I understand it.)

I gather there is no single philosophical tradition. According to Wikipedia the thread traces back many centuries BC in both Eastern and Western thought, with the 1st century Christians and other groups in the Levant adopting similar philosophies. And anarchy as defined and defended in essay and speech as a formal political philosophy took hold in the late 1700’s (a free-thinking European reaction to the American and French revolutions) as a non-violent philosophy of society without government.

I suppose I find anarchism very impractical, theoretical, and utopian, at least by today’s measures. Those philosophers did not perhaps account practicalities of power - or for the rise of enormous, global and nearly impervious institutions.

I can’t tell if our ability to pursue political thinking while avoiding manipulation (if we do choose) is moving forwards or backwards right now. Our all-news networks seem determined to feed out predictable and pre-scripted talking-points that could have been read off a TelePrompTer, with a few exceptions.

Re current protests.

I understand what drives people to the streets. I hope those who are appalled by Trump eventually choose to focus on communicating with those who voted him into office. If the protestors wish to promote their agendas, imho, that’s the path.

@chuckf1 One imagines that the set of people motivated enough to protest were also motivated enough to vote. Trump won legitimately (as much as that bothers me).

@sweetjoey

I know numerous people who wanted Vermin.

@sweetjoey I wanted taco trucks on the corner. I was really looking forward to just walking down the street to get dinner.

@Felton10 Agreed. And what worries me is the removal of the protection pre-existing conditions. I have a cancer with no cure. If I have no insurance I am up a creek. Yeah I am up a different kind of creek with premiums rising, as mine are, to $1119.18/mo and rising to $6000 deductible/out of pocket (I live in a state that did not expand medicaid and I don’t make enough for a subsidy) but at least, theoretically I will still have/could still have health insurance. Of course I guess a solution to the poverty problem is to kill us off due to lack of access to health care.

@Kidsandliz Ironically, the pre-existing condition provision is one thing that Trump agrees with and doesn’t believe should be removed. I hate him with a fiery passion but there are a few things he has said that actually make sense. (It pains me to say that.) Of course he flips faster than a gymnast so…

@cinoclav
Someone here compared Trump to PT Barnum. I used exactly that phrase speaking w family members more than a year ago.

He will say anything that sells. The people working with him - and his opponents - have no clue what he will do. And he doesn’t know either.

@PocketBrain If you’d told me 20 years ago that a Republican could get elected on the slogan “America isn’t Great Any More” I’d have laughed in your face.

@moondrake It’s basically the exact same phrase Reagan used in 1980.

@koifish Really? I remember Reagan as being more “America is great! You are great! Everyone is great!” I remember his message being very positive. I think of him as one of the best inspirational speakers we’ve ever had in the oval office. But my memory isn’t too reliable so I assume you are right. I didn’t vote for him back then, but if he’d been in this race I’d have considered him. He didn’t really have the skills for the job, but I trusted him to fill his cabinet with competent people, more so than either of this year’s choices. Politicians are able to blow up the world, but they do not run the world. Bureaucrats run the world. Finding a politician that will hire and support the right bureaucrats is the trick.

@f00l I just read this. Excellent email. I appreciate you taking the time to get this insight from people who felt Trump was the better option. Although I didn’t vote for him, I fell victim to the groupthink and failed to do enough of my own independent research. If nothing else, I won’t make that mistake again.

For what it’s worth, I hope the voters you detailed above are right in their thinking that the rhetoric does not translate into reality.

Lastly, I think many of the protesters are making a mistake by protesting Trump. They should be protesting his campaign rhetoric, and reminding him (and everyone else in our government) that slightly more than half of the voters disagree. Now that he’s president he has a responsibility to represent ALL Americans, not just those that voted for him.

Regardless, we’ll all find out soon enough.

@f00l relevant article from Slate here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/there_is_no_such_thing_as_a_good_trump_voter.html

make sure to read beyond the headline, because the reasoning and examples included therein are impactful

@Lotsofgoats
I have seen a number of articles like that since the election. I am pretty familiar with the type of historical incidents of racial oppression and hatred and violence the article cites. Done by good citizens - or “good citizens”. Or by mostly otherwise decent persons who devolved into primitive evil in certain circumstances.

Some people I know have a similar take on Trump voters. A few.

The hatred history referred is so ugly it’s difficult to read. And the current incidents are ugly and evil and appalling. And some of Trump’s worst supporters feel they now have permission.

But I personally believe those and similar essays, while understandable to a degree, and having some historical and current justification, are overdoing it - at this moment. So far. Tho it might get that bad, to become comparable with the past. Or not.

I am pretty personally appalled that decent and good people were able to excuse or overlook Trump’s conduct and lack of policy and off-the-cuff exaggerations and lies.

But in my informal conversations after the election last week - with something like 20-30 persons - just speaking to who I ran into, and only knowing who someone voted for if they volunteered the info - more than 1/2 were Hispanics. A few were African-American. More than a few were immigrants - a number from south of the border.

And more than 1/2 of all these subgroups, taken separately, said they voted for Trump. Also way more than 1/2 the females. And several of them told me that they knew Muslims who voted for Trump.

So. What are they? Racists? Stupid? Xenophobes? Anti-world? Self-haters?

In every case I spoke with, no. They are not.

In many cases they thought Trump was awful and Clinton was worse. Or they saw things in Trump I don’t see (tho he is unpredictable).

To me those people, and others like them, and those pro-Trump voters from the rust belt made a bad choice. I believe this. They obviously see differently. They didn’t and won’t commit crimes. None I know have, or would, or would excuse those who have. The future is about a downward path is not certain.

That they possibly made a bad choice does not make them bad people.

So yes, there are “good Trump voters”. Looks like 60 million of them, give or take. Who may turn out to have been very very very wrong. Or not.

As for the quality of the choice? We’ll see.

As for the “forgiving, or not forgiving” - anyone who wants think in those terms about Trump voters or is unwilling to engage w pro-Trump voters as an moral equals who deserve open conversation must, practically speaking, be willing to occupy an attitude that will assist in losing the next election to Trump or someone else who will assist the far-right or far alt-right.

“They don’t deserve your empathy”

the article claims.
Well, those voters have mine - to whatever degree it’s worth anything; don’t wanna overrate my fabulous emotional capacities, here - and I sincerely hope I have theirs.

May you live in interesting times is a traditional apocryphal Chinese curse.
And we do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times

@daveinwarsh We loooost somehow even though everyone said we would win! I’m going to yell about it until we somehow didn’t lose!

Let’s be honest though, most people “protesting” who get arrested aren’t there because they want any sort of political say, they just like causing trouble and destroying things.

@eeterrific
Congress is gonna go nuts on “privatize all”.

@sohmageek
I am sure if Apple brings some manufacturing back here, will do wonders for I-device encryption and security. And affordability.

Fwiw, we can’t mess with China too much. No matter how po’ed we are.

First, china is prob not doing much currency manipulation. Second, China is a much larger market for many electronic items (including smartphones) than the-rest-of-the-world-market-combined-minus-India. So they, not we, stand to profit from trade restrictions. And own the world market and all that. Third, they hold a lot of our debt. Fourth, they dont need our engineering and tech, they are doing fine… whether they stole the tech or not, too late now. Fifth, they are getting way too close to taking over world economics now. I hope we don’t help them too much, but … politics by fools. Sigh.

@f00l We’ve never seen trump’s tax statement, there is a good chance China and the Russians are holding a good portion of his debt.

@cranky1950

My thought are just amateur hour, but here goes:

Don’t know how extended he is to the Chinese - his relationship there might be just as a marketable brand - where other investors put up the $. Or maybe he owes them his shirt and socks.

The Russians - I can’t begin to imagine.

What are the odds he will release his tax returns now?

I am trying to imagine future scenarios for this country. There are so many ways this could go to disaster. His early cabinet picks are very mixed - a few seem tolerable - some appear to be either totally retrograde or corrupt.
He appears to be “draining the swamp” by hiring those who created it and view it from their penthouses.

The media never figured out how to handle him during the campaign, and they still haven’t. They are an easy target and he plays that for all he can.

And all those rude/disrespectful/ridiculous remarks and “I never said that” and the barrage of lies and misrepresentations - the media follows the hot-button provocation again and again and again. They play in his turf, and dance his tunes. Trump pwns them.

The NY media (apart from Fox, who pulls fire alarms) treats flyover America with something that looks like condescension or contempt, and red America returns the favor by distrusting them.

Ever since the 1980’s Trump was a such an “alive” presence that - starting on local NY media, and then in national media - he has been welcome to (unscheduled) call in and interrupt a number of live talk show TV shows that don’t normally allow phone callers - even important ones - to do this. But they did it for him. He held no political power, and was not a topic-of-the-moment (those are the normal criteria for exceptions), yet he was welcome - they got him on-the-air. Because he was entertaining. Because nobody changed the channel.

He is an expert at offering “feel-good” to those inclined his way.

Most of those in the Republican Party who opposed him on the grounds that he lies and corrupts the debate and the process have folded and chosen to play at his house. They can smell “let’s make a deal”. He’s going to spin their heads on their necks for a while. Who is left in that party as loyal opposition? Kasich?
(I don’t mind Romney as Sec of State, if he gets that job - I prefer someone sane there. Romney might have the opportunity to save us from ourselves at some point.)

The Democrats seem not to know what to do next, excepting Warren. She’s astonishingly good on her feet - but can she touch red America? I don’t know. The Democrats may have lost working class white America for good. Or not - once Trump fails to perform. The way forward may be something no one’s thought of yet. Or Trump may so thoroughly corrupt the process than the process itself is in peril.

Excepting the LA Time/USC poll, the polls seem to have under-weighted rural, ex-urban, and blue-collar America, and to have screwed up their likely-to-vote measures. This consistently made Clinton look stronger than she was. If her campaign had good data, they might have crafted a better campaign, focused more on economic issues rather than Trump’s latest outrage.
I seem to remember “It’s the economy, stupid” having worked once as a point of focus in a campaign.
But that’s over.

It feels like dead calm before the hurricane.

@f00l Polls now agree that ‘education was everything’ in determining how people voted. And yet Hillary won the popular vote by 1.8% as of yesterday. I agree with the ‘dead calm’ simile.
‘Pollsters Probably Didn’t Talk To Enough White Voters Without College Degrees’ http://53eig.ht/2gKE2Ps

@OldCatLady
Of the people I have spoken to locally:

A majority of
Those with college degrees
Those without college degrees
Hispanic
Women
Went for Trump.
(This is serious red America turf).

If you include grad-level anything as a criteria the result change.
Or tech or health-care industries careers regardless of education.

Just my private sample. No one is bringing this up anymore.
For the first few days people I ran into who had been silent for 2 years wanted to talk a little, quietly, respectfully. (The had-been-silent were not of one side or the other.)
Now everyone seems to want to get back to their lives and move on toward who know what.

@f00l Not everyone. The few people I know locally who refuse to ‘make nice’ are actively looking for the best way to focus their energies. An Episcopal priest (highly educated); a psychotherapist (ditto); an elderly gay male hairdresser (HS education). And Leonard Pitts, Jr. ‘I’m not in the mood for ‘unity.’ At the end of the day, Drumpf’s still a bigot’ http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article114982043.html
Me, I’ve got some of the harsher Old Testament bits running around. ‘This shall not stand’ etc. I still have the ‘Hamilton’ hip-hop stuck in there too. The combination is … unique. The inside of my head is weird.

@OldCatLady Geez Pitts always reminded me of the little brother on Good Times.

@OldCatLady

Once again, just my amateur hour soapbox and nobody listens to me.

The trick will be “the best ways to focus their energies”.

For some, they already have their platforms, causes, methods: they will continue. Some of these people are only really talking to their base, which may keep the faith, but won’t change much beyond that.

For others, and for people who want to see tangible results rather than rhetoric, it gets more tricky.

The Democratic Party is in disarray. They appear not to have had a plan for what to do if Clinton lost. WTF with that? They have few potential “stars” who are not baby boomers, and they really need fresh blood and energy. I have heard that the lack of many nationally known faces ages 40-50 or so is a deliberate consequence of how the party and the Congressional caucuses have been run since 2000. Dunno. Developing these faces should have been a party priority for the last 16 years.

The Democratic Party will not win without connecting to substantial #'s of voters in close red and purple states. They were careless and had bad data: how did they manage not to know they were losing the rust belt? If they are too good or too pure or to pc to talk to those voters, they won’t get those votes.

They need a saleable economic message, and that prob means discussing not just the various outrages, but finance and growth as a whole. Where growth comes from, where good employment options come from, how to pay for whatever programs they propose. How someone might be a Democrat and also be politically invested in lots of new businesses that aren’t just inspired by interest rate games. If old jobs can be kept, how to keep them. If old jobs are lost, what to do next. And they need to clarify an attitude toward Wall Street and toward international profit shifting. Ok for individuals to deviate to the left side or right of what they come up with, but they need to start with something.

Same for Trump’s other hot button items.

They need to clarify regarding trade. Right now if we do a trade war w China, we may well lose.

They need to make education and its financing a matter of economic and national security.
“Making education affordable again” has a nice ring and might be one realistic response to the loss of high-wage blue collar jobs.

And other stuff.

Oh well. Enuf poking around where I am only somewhat informed for the moment.

@OldCatLady In all fairness, all you can do is suck it up and get through it. The 51% have spokened. We survived Reagan, Colorado has approved assisted suicide.

@cranky1950

Colorado has such a good vibe.

@f00l

@cranky1950 The Trumpcare suicide vans are rolling.

@cranky1950 Damn good choreographer on this

@f00l Reality has no place in politics. It’s all about selling lies and soothing the populace. I’m reading James Carville’s ‘We’re Still Right, They’re Still Wrong’, published earlier this year, in which he details how facts have become irrelevant in politics. He details the two Americas, how information and money have been used, and gloomily forecasts what will happen if Trump wins. The book is a stirring, even eloquent presentation of politics and reality in America in 2016. It’s going to go down in history as the best example of the Cassandra Complex (q.v.) ever.

@OldCatLady
I partially agree re facts. Only partially. Fox News is twist city. And the other news networks haven’t helped much because they don’t directly address the issue of “what is a political ‘fact’”?

I have this prob illogical hope that at some point the public will be smarter than anyone expects. That the internet age “info”-deluge will breed a counter-sophistication that comes straight from the kids. From the “street” so to speak.

For validation or lack thereof, pls note my userid.

@Pavlov

There’ll be an Alexander Haig in there somewhere. I hope

@Pavlov A psychotherapist friend of mine says her professional diagnosis is that he’s a textbook example of a narcissist. She explained, at length. One ray of hope: no one believes he has had a real physical exam in a long time. Eat more KFC, Cheeto!

@OldCatLady I agree with the textbook narcissism, I wonder if he is possibly borderline also, as they share many of the same symptoms. Most borderlines usually settle down later in life (if they make it past 45), but with all of his sexual acting out and gross impulsiveness, it has me deeply worried. The whole borderline thing that leans towards the possibility of recurrent psychotic breaks is absolutely horrifying.

Eat more KFC, Cheeto!

is my new bumper-sticker.

@Pavlov - He exhibits narcissistic personality disorder (NPD).
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_psychopathology_of_donald_trump_20160731
If the linked article is too long, jump down to the ‘The diagnosis’ heading.
Hint: it will not ease your fear.

@KDemo

@Pavlov I’d rather he did have major psychotic breaks, publicly. I believe his addiction to Twitter is a good indicator of his thought process, and I find it reassuring that it can’t be hidden. The more public his megalomania or narcissism or BPD becomes, the more likely it is that his financial puppet masters will rein him in. He is volatile and easily manipulated. Sometime in the next six weeks would be a good time for a major break.

@cranky1950 Then again MacArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton had no problem killing war veterans when they attacked the bonus army.

@Pavlov
I foresee the military and national security people - and other cabinet people - choosing to “manage his information flow”.

I don’t think his prob is, strictly speaking, a disabling lack of sanity. Look how long a run he’s had on his brand of blowhard BS. He’s obviously good at something.

Speaking without any professional psychiatric knowledge, I would guess he has a combo - narcissistic personality disorder, plus perhaps a few other personality disorders, plus some variety of ADHD possibly. And sufficient organizational skills that he has been able to build and maintain a real-estate and financial organization that has protected him from himself, and given him credit for everyone else’s accomplishment.

He’s no ideologue. I expected him to trade policies and philosophies like stocks. Whatever might payoff. As long as he can keep his public rallies and his crowds and his slogans.

@f00l I agree that he’s good at something - it is that he is good at what he is good at and the fact that it doesn’t bother him, is what really bothers me.

@Pavlov There is no external world, to a narcissist. He has nothing to regret, not because he chooses not to, but because the machinery is not there. Unfettered, oblivious, living in his eternal ‘now’, he sleeps well. All manipulation is done because he can, and because it confuses everyone else. That’s enough for tonight, I didn’t get a Fuku and I’m out of Jameson’s. That bottle had lasted me almost three years and now it’s done. It’s gonna be a hard winter.

@OldCatLady
Don’t go thru the winter without. Not this winter.

January is coming.

@Pavlov
Yeah I’m scared too

This is the guy who had to have “mutually assured distruction” and “nuclear winter” explained to him repeatedly. Does he get it yet? Who knows?

I hope he keeps Jared Kushner close. I’ll forgive a bit of nepotism if we come out the other side with a nation we still recognize and value. Kushner is sane, and he’s not politically ambitious. And The D trusts him.

@Pavlov
I gave $ to the making of Atomic Cafe during.

And there are more stories. But whatever.

@f00l Kushner is just a different rung (circle) of the same Hell.

@Pavlov
He’s much saner than DT. Or so it appears to me.

@f00l Perhaps sane. But not dissimilar in most agenda.

@Pavlov
I just hope we make it thru this with a sort of working democracy. Jared Kushner won’t intentionally - or casually - destroy that. Dunno if he can stop other forces that might.

@OldCatLady You’re definitely gonna need another bottle.

@Pavlov I think we’ve demonstrated that he can easily be diagnosed from a distance. He’s somewhere in the Class B cluster of dramatic, emotional or erratic personality disorders. I’d say #1 narcissistic (wow, huh?), #2 antisocial (your typical criminal w/o a conscience), with maybe a hint of #3 histrionic (the consistent 3am tweets). I agree he is unfit for the office he will assume next month (GGGAHHH). I’ve read he’s not attending the daily briefings, but Pence is. My guess is that Pence, like Cheney, will run the country - domestic and foreign policy - while he runs his businesses and feeds his ego/narcissistic supply. I think even he is amazed and surprised at the goldmine the office represents for his business interests, and the conflict of interest might get him impeached cuz he doesn’t hear ‘No’ well. That would leave us with Pence at which point it will be officially over, so not a great alternative. I stand by what I said yesterday - we’re screwed in ways we can’t imagine. So what do we do? Anyone think the electoral college will revolt, pay the fines, and save us from ourselves? (Now I’m being magical, right?)

@suewalsh1 My own take on DT is that he doesn’t really want the very difficult job of being President. What he wants is to be the Queen - going on a Tour of the Realm, waving to his adoring subjects, doing state visits with foreign dignitaries - while leaving the grubby, difficult day-to-day running of the country in the hands of his PM VP Pence. I imagine the VP making (very short) periodic visits to the Oval Office to update the President and formally ask permission to do things that he (Pence) has already decided on.

@suewalsh1
@Rockblossom

That’s one scenario. Trump as figurehead. The cabinet as govt as in the early Cheney-Rumsfeld alliance.

But Trump is owned by no one of them and owes all the people next to nothing and has no fear of firing or humiliating all of them if that will serve him. And he loves the surprise and the reveal, and he wants to own the dramatic decisions.

Perhaps the cabinet etc will find a way to make feel like he made decisions that were pre-made. I doubt it, not across the the issue basket. Only in the areas where he’s bored. He loves bucking authority and tradition, including the authorities he hired. I expect to see major ongoing cabinet changes and firings and re-organizations, and quickly. Some of these people might not make it to Inauguration Day. I expect to see him routinely make sure that other would-be players - foreground or background people - periodically emphatically receive the message that he’s in charge. He wants none of these people to rest too easy around him.

He’s doing rallies now because he has no power. Once he gets power, I think he will want to spend a lot of time riding it himself.

And he will change course on many issues. Has before, will again. Used to be a Democrat. If he can make himself a hero to his fans by adopting Democrat positions against his own party structure, and he likes the ideas in question, and he thinks he can sell them, he’ll do it.

His positions may get better or worse. If he wants to undercut or sideline his cabinet, he will.

No one knows. I don’t think Trump knows.

@f00l I see your point, to a point. But, as Paul Ryan reminded him - he will be President, not the CEO. He can play “Apprentice” with his personal staff, but Cabinet positions must be approved by Congress. He can nominate people for the Supreme Court, but once confirmed, there are no take-backs. And once confirmed, they can overrule him with a “Not Constitutional” ruling. He can have all of the great ideas he wants about new laws - but laws are passed (or not) by Congress, no matter how many Twitter rants he goes on. The Democrats will be happy to use him for their own ends where they can, but they owe him no loyalty, either. He has no friends in Washington, in either party. As Harry Truman said: “If you want a friend in Washington, get a dog.” An even temper and a sense of humor (especially about himself) would be a great help, but he has neither. He is walking, smiling, into shark-infested waters, and he has no clue. I might be inclined to feel a bit sorry for him, but … um… nope.

@rockblossom One aspect that isn’t getting nearly as much attention as it should is the Presidential Executive Order. They’re scary things, and Roosevelt used one to intern Japanese-Americans. They do not go through the legislative process at all. Another, not-so-minor detail: as head of the Executive Branch, the President controls Federal lands. http://www.cnbc.com/2014/01/28/executive-orders-what-they-are-and-how-they-work.html

@rockblossom
@OldCatLady

Yet of course he’s bound to a degree by Congress, the Courts, and funding.

But this not-quite CEO has astonishing power. The executive order. Who he puts on the court. The deals he does w Congress - what he wants in trade for what they want.

Plus potential deals with Dems - will they back off other areas and trade w him in order to save Medicare, Social Securiry, and the VA in their current forms as opposed to privatization? Esp since he is not strongly committed to privatization, and it would be wildly unpopular, and he can use it to buy Dem acquiescence or assistance in other areas?

He will play his groups off each other. He doesn’t intend to “play fair” even by Beltway standards. If Paul Ryan goes after Trump early, unless Ryan had red-state voter backing, Trumo will win. Trump has bested Ryan every time.

He will sideline cabinet members if he wishes - they may still run their departments, but will lose their policy influence. They will prob play his game in order to keep his ear. He will get their resignations if he wishes for them. He will get new cabinet officers thru Congress. They don’t expect difficult hearings for most of the existing ones.

The only place he can’t spin or deal is the court; until he gets a few nominees approved. Are any justices waiting for a Republican President so they can retire? I don’t know.

Right now he believes he’s got a political engine that will allow him to remake much of the Republican Party and model if after his preferences. He may be right. The Republicans in Congress look ready to follow and deal, not stand on traditional principles.

If he does something that is perceived as utterly repulsive or politically hit-button terrible by purple voters who went red this time - all of them who put Obama into office - he’s in trouble. Right now the issues I see that could provoke that response are the VA, Social Security, and Medicare. Or if he took a catastrophic economic or trade position. Or some issue that makes the red state voters start to feel the republic is in peril.

And the Dem party in Congress hasn’t figured out what it’s doing yet.

Oh well. Just mental wandering when I’m too tired. Some centrists seem to think it won’t be that bad. Is that possible? And some cynics are entertained by the whole thing. I can’t go there.

@OldCatLady Thanks, that was interesting. You’re right, the concept/possibility of Executive Order from the circus peanut hadn’t even occurred to me, as I’m sure it hasn’t to many others. EOs are tailor made for this man, except with him they’ll be more like Executive Tantrums.

@f00l

But Trump is owned by no one

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/6/1578492/-Who-Owns-Donald-Trump

@f00l Didja see that he called the president of Taiwan today about potential business dealings? The US doesn’t deal w/Taiwan because it’s not the ‘official’ China, even though it is what’s left of the original China. He is completely off the leash. Just what we need - him pissing off Red China (as it used to be called) before he even takes office.

@suewalsh1 I’d hazard a bet that he doesn’t fully understand the “one China” doctrine / policy that has averted disaster since the late 70’s.

This guy is a fucking circus clown.

Unless of course his intent is to piss off China before he takes office so that he can have an excuse to buddy up closer with Russia. It’ll destroy us economically and eventually destabilize Asia into a de facto war.

If he’s doing this with forethought, he needs to not take office.

@Pavlov Well, isn’t that special. Holy shit, there are enough conflicts of interest here to radically affect foreign policy beyond my comprehension. So the $64k question continues to be how will we know in any given moment if he’s wearing his President Hat or CEO Hat? Cuz I forget who here said it but he cares about nothing and no one but himself, the country and everyone in it be damned.

@suewalsh1 China owns $1.157 trillion of U.S. debt. That’s a lot of leverage. And they could raise the interest rates.

@rockblossom So not the first entity Trump should be pissing off, is that what you’re suggesting? You can’t fix stupid, but he might get a great contract to sell his ties in Taiwan - and maybe Ivanka’s jewelry!

@Pavlov I see borderline (you’d have to be blind to miss the narcism) in him too. My kid is that. I don’t know how she behaved when she was basically under 10 (when I adopted her) but I can tell you for sure life is often hell with her, even 17 years later. A train wreck in slow motion interrupted by explosions, lack of empathy, lying about things that don’t even matter, stealing, no real sense of conscience, the world “made her do it” - she is never responsible for what happens, pisses off everyone around her eventually and then moves on without a backwards glance at the wreckage she left in her wake (nor does she think that is relevant)… The trouble is we are hooked to the Trump Train with no real way off and even if he bails, Pence is very scary in other ways.

@Pavlov

RE trump owned by whom?

Should have been more specific w language. I mean the “owns Trump” in the Beltway power traditions sense, not the financial sense. He doesn’t have the web of obligations that bind him to others in Washington. He’s perfectly willing to “reassign” someone loyal who’s gotten too hungry/ambitious or too fanatic or too incompetent. All these hires need him. He doesn’t need them. His power comes as much from his twitter account as it does from Beltway relationships, tho this will change.

Re being owned financially - worldwide real estate means massive bank and private debt and investor obligations. Just has too. But he’s perhaps got more unconventional power over his creditors than they have conventional power over him. Even in the old days. Because his contracts insulate him, personally, to protect his “name asset”, since the early bankruptcies - because creditors and investors need his name to be in decent standing - because he has proven he can walk and start over and do fine - because he doesn’t give a shit. Because he would trash anyone who went against him in the air, and Fox, CNN, and many local tv/radio stations would give him free airtime.

And that was before the presidency.
Now I expect the $ creditors to dance to his every whim.

@suewalsh1 Now he’s tweeting to cover his mistake.

Oh. My. God. We’re. All. Gonna. Die.

@Pavlov @f00l @suewalsh1 When someone freaks out thinking about bad things that haven’t actually happened, it’s ‘catastrophizing’. I don’t know what the inverse is. ‘You Ain’t Seen Nothin’ Yet’ seems a little mild.

@OldCatLady So if ‘catastrophising’ (or awfulizing as I’ve also heard it called) is thinking about bad stuff that hasn’t happened yet, the inverse, at least here, might be ‘normalizing’ as in “nothing to see here folks, the show will go on”. Did I get that right?

As a follow-up, I’d add that ‘one who doesn’t know history is doomed to repeat it’. Now, is that wisdom or catastrophising? Cuz this has all been done before, not by a circus peanut (remember those candies? They’d gag a maggot and I loved them) but by a strange little man who looked like he was wearing a Fuller Brush on his face.

Whatever the definition, I agree ‘we ain’t seen nothing yet.’

@OldCatLady
Don’t think I’m catastrophizing per se - it’s a mind game. I don’t “believe” in an emotional sense. I try to see if my thinking processes start to align somewhat with what happens.

Playing out scenarios in my head and tweaking them to pay “crystal ball”. And to have some kind of prep for my gut if things go bad. I did not foresee Trump’s election and that spun me around in shock for a few days. (Forgive self since all the talking heads didn’t see it either).

I’m trying to get a feel for how Trump will operate as President, since info from within about how the Trump organization operates - the biz entity, not the the campaign - is incredibly scarce. Interesting to me that for all the talk and news, there’s almost no one leaking about how the businesses have been run day-to-day for the last 30-40 years. How has Trump made decisions or handled power among his own executives?

I am somewhat curious why the people who live and breathe polling didn’t examine the LATimes/USC poll’s outlier results (which continued for months) more closely. Even on the fivethirtyeight podcast, those were just mentioned in passing. (“Oh yeah, the LA Times poll as usual”). The group who designed and ran the poll are serious heavyweights who published everything.

If everything turns out more or less “fine” then ok. And I have also in my wee brain a number of scenarios where it might. Trump is flexible - he will go where his opportunistic and survival instincts drive him - he will use all the tools available to him in unique ways - he will use media in unique ways - he will listen to those of whose loyalty he is convinced, esp the last person who talks to him. (That’s why I want to see Kushner and other people who have sane judgement hanging around, even if politically they make me cringe). His cabinet, if they play it right, might educate him to start thinking thru various consequences, and to start being careful what he says, at least regarding foreign policy.

The office itself will hit him like a truckload of bricks. His cabinet might be able to sideline Bannon - I hope they can. The Dems might get their act together, become an effective counterbalance, and try to reassert a meaningful political presence in the Red States. They might even effectively bargain with Trump. Their best chances in 2018 look to be governorships - perhaps they can bag some. Trumps instincts might lead him in non-destructive directions.

And so, if things are “fine”, we go on with our lives. And have other choices in 2020 or 2024.

Trump appears to have knowledge of, and less respect for or allegiance to, the more ethical political and legal traditions politicians have at least tried to honor by appearances. And - my belief - he will be the guy making the decisions, not Pence, not the cabinet in lieu of Trump.

Is Trump less dangerous and more reasoned than he often appears? Or more dangerous and less reasoned? Crystal ball does not speak on those questions to date.

@Pavlov

Perhaps the State Dept job hasn’t settled yet because the next Secretary of State will be Twitter.

@OldCatLady thanks for posting that article – interesting

@OldCatLady @f00l, @Pavlov Dammit, Where is my Soma? If I can’t find my pills, I’m gonna have to go through the drive thru SomaSpray. Damn pills, I need my pills…