I am picturing being on the beach and seeing someone lay this down on the blanket beside me and blasting shitty ass thump thump music. If you buy this don’t be that asshole on the beach that thinks everyone likes, “woman are bitches and let’s kill cops” music like you do.
Have this. Bought it for my outdoor wedding…Just to play ONE song. Was going to return it but it sounds so good.
It is heavy but solid. The battery lasts forever. The rubber flap at the top is just there to hold a device. You can just take it off if you choose. I use the AUX in to connect to my turntable. The sound kicks ass! This thing is a tank that can bring a tear to your eyes…while listening to Air Supply.
@cinoclav The two previous weddings? First was an Emerson dual cassette deck Ghetto Blaster. Second was a single speaker cd player rocking some sweet burned MP3s, Downloaded from Napster.
This thing reminds me of the boombox days in the 80’s! Truly an epic period in history where a piece of cardboard and some beats could turn teens into world class breakers.
Removable phone holder: A little flap of silicone sits at the top of the speaker with a raised edge. It forms a nice little perch for your phone or tablet while listening to music.
If you look at the overhead image of the speaker which was posted, you would see that the top is (mostly) flat.
I remember when that article from Android Police came out, as I remember laughing at the parts I read. But wow, it’s already been 2 years.
@kdemo@PlacidPenguin@RedOak they’ve changed HQ a few times I think now. They would have left them for the next victim of meh hq1. Also why do some people have a poop next to their names?
@kdemo@PlacidPenguin@sohmageek “forgotten” pallet could refer to anywhere… including in a dusty corner at JBL or a third party wholesaler. #WishfulThinking
Hmm… I already have an IP68 rated waterproof bluetooth speaker that lasts 12hrs on a charge and sounds pretty decent. So I don’t need to spend $150 on the IPX5 rated waterproof bluetooth speaker that lasts 14 hours and probably sounds a bit better. Also I don’t have $150.
Keep trying, meh. Someday you’ll convince me to spend more than $35 on something, but today is not the day.
I just recently bought the mini Btaven BRV-1 Waterproof speaker from wOOt for $37. The sound quality is pretty good. The nice thing is it’s built like a rock for outdoor use, which fit my need perfectly.
So…do these output in stereo? I realize that many of today’s Bluetooth speaker users don’t seem to care about stereo (otherwise it would be a published spec), as there are so many millions of Bluetooth mono speakers flooding the market. But some of us still like true stereo sound (two speakers does not a stereo make).
Also, i realize it can be a bit difficult for designers to implement stereo over bluetooth (yet, some headsets seem to do it), but at the very least, it shoyld be stereo over the line-in jack.
Conveniently, I’ve been looking to buy one of these larger speakers for the garage and miscellaneous outdoor adventures. I’ve been holding back since I didn’t want to spend $3-400 on one. So this works out for me well! I’ve tested the Braven XXL, the JBL Boombox, and the Monster Blaster. All sound good, the JBL was very directional, the Monster tweeters were too bright for me, and the braven seemed like it was a nice middle ground with solid low end and “warmer” highs. All subjective, YMMV.
This is certainly the least packaged, and probably the most quickly delivered item I have received from Meh. The actual speaker appears undamaged. It was in a plastic bag loose in a bigger box. There is no manual, or paper of any sort other than a wad (inadequate) of packing stuff. It came with a power supply and power cord. the power supply is rated 12V 5A, yet the speaker wants 18V 3.5A. The power cable has had the ground forcibly removed, but I have so many of these cords so NBD. I’m thinking I shouldn’t try to charge this thing…
That’s it. There’s no strap or bottle opener, but whatev. I will probably need to be able to plug it in at the very least.
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately we dont warranty refurbished
items purchased on deal sites, if you have any further questions
please let us know. Kind Regards,
Trini | Customer Support Supervisor
Incipio Group Support Incipio | Griffin | Incase | Tavik | Braven iGo
| ClamCase | Chicbuds
=========================================
May 17, 10:41 PM CDT
Trini,
It was purchased from Mediocre Corp, Meh.com parent company.
@therealjrn I can just hear the CS people- “Some idiot says they bought a speaker from someplace called Mediocre. Hahahaha!” Will they ever be surprised when they find out they were supposed to fix it.
@ice992 Meh doesn’t work on weekends- give them a few days. If they don’t help you then you can threaten them. The Braven CS person was probably under informed.
Just piling on from my other thread. My speaker won’t power on, either. CS responded pretty quickly to my first email last Friday, so we’ll see how quickly they get back to me now that I’ve asked for a refund. Otherwise, I’ll have to go the CC dispute route.
Meh told me to contact Braven, but I knew it wasn’t worth my time. I spent an additional $17 at Amazon for the correct charging cord. Speaker fully charged in just over 3 hours and works fine now. I’m curious to see if Meh steps up and refunds anyone one. Please post if they do.
This would be a good speaker for outdoor movie night. Too bad I already bought an (admittedly sonically superior) Aiwa for that purpose after I bought that projector last year here on Meh. ()
That projector + stand alone 120 inch screen + Aiwa Bluetooth speaker + Apple TV has been a pretty sweet setup for outdoor movie night . . .
@cinoclav I didn’t know you lived next door! hahahahaha. The key to outdoor movie night if you have neighbors . . . 1. Invite your neighbors. 2. Keep the movie non-offensive as possible. Since we have young kids, that part isn’t too hard luckily.
I seriously researched this for like ten minutes before I realized I don’t use many of my other Meh Bluetooth speakers that regularly. Why would I think a $150 one would be different, except it could be potentially much louder?
It’s almost pool time, though, so the qfx array will come back out for backyard duty soon. They are loud enough for 95% of what I need.
I got the same 12v@5A Charger and it had sticky tape all over it…Been trying to charge it for over 4 hours now…still no juice…will leave it over night…It might be DOA though…
@bigkiskewl Try using a spare 3-prong computer power cord if you have one lying around. We tested 6 units this morning – all are fully charging with the supplied 12V power supply, but we did come across one power cord that was defective. The adapter itself was fine.
Also, only came with 3 of the 4 rubber feet on the bottom.
Unit powers up, but only the downfiring sub plays. The mids/highs aren’t on at all. Turn the volume up, and the mids/highs will crackle once, but that’s all.
Officially the most disappointing purchase from Meh (and previously from woot) ever.
Same issues as already mentioned. Poorly packaged - no padding of any kind. My charger is only 12v@3A. It did come covered with sticky tape all over it as well.
@mccullal8 Try using a spare 3-prong computer power cord if you have one lying around. We tested 6 units this morning – all are fully charging with the supplied 12V power supply, but we did come across one power cord that was defective. The adapter itself was fine.
NO help from Meh Support Either…They told me to contact Braven…which I did…
This is what I got back from them…
Trini (Braven) May 17, 2:36 PM CDT
Hi,
Thank you for your email. We’re sorry to hear that your Braven product
has become damaged/defective. We would be happy to assist with your
request, however, we will need some additional information in order to
process your request properly. Please reply directly to this email
with the following information:
A picture of your damaged/defective product (front and back) 2) A
picture or copy of your proof of purchase. 3) A full shipping address
(including city, state, and zip) 4) A brief description of which
product you have and the color of the speaker
Once we receive your email, you can expect a response within 5
business days on the next steps. We look forward to hearing back from
you so we can further assist you!
Your RMA and Replacement/Warranty request is valid for 30 days.
Please feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns.
Kind Regards,
Trini | Customer Support Supervisor
Incipio Group Support Incipio | Griffin | Incase | Tavik | Braven iGo
| ClamCase | Chicbuds
@bigkiskewl Whoever is listed in the specs post under the Warranty heading should take care of it as your first line of support. In this case it’s Braven. Meh is weird that way, because they’re not a regular store and often don’t have more of whatever item was sold to replace it. It’s unlikely you’ll be left hanging.
These extras steps in the event something goes wrong are pretty much precisely what allow us to save 50% on that speaker, though, so think of Franklin and Grant while you email a photo and your receipt to the manufacturer.
Thank you for contacting Braven! After reviewing your request, you have been denied for a warranty replacement since your Braven speaker was not purchased at one of our authorized retailers. We kindly ask you to take a look at our warranty policy on our website for additional information.
@bigkiskewl now meh support should be able to help.
It’s happened before that first line manufacturer support is unaware of the deal that their bosses have made with meh buyers, but that can usually be straightened out.
@bigkiskewl see this post further down. A Mediocre Corporation is the very first entry on their list of authorized retailers. Maybe that will help Trini decide to help.
@bigkiskewl@djslack OR, maybe Trini just doesn’t want to help. Maybe they just wanted to unload some crap and wash their hands of it. Either way, I am glad I stayed away from this mess.
Mine came with a DOA 12V AC Adapter as well (not to mention the crappy packaging). The manual (which you can download from the Braven web site) says that it requires an 18V charger, not 12V. Meh is sending these refurbs out with chargers they know will not work, and it sounds like most of them are DOA as well. Not nice! They refuse to reimburse for the cost of an 18V adapter (around $13 to $17 on Amazon).
Ok…So we have no warranty right now, I have tried and tried again to get Braven to warranty the product…
Trini (Braven)
May 23, 2:03 PM CDT
Hello,
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately Meh.com is not an authorized
retailer, we dont warranty refurbished items purchased on deal sites,
if you have any further questions please let us know. Kind Regards,
Trini | Customer Support Supervisor
Incipio Group Support Incipio | Griffin | Incase | Tavik | Braven iGo
| ClamCase | Chicbuds
Kevin
May 22, 10:17 PM CDT
Trini,
Meh is part of " A Mediocre Corporation" which is an authorized
retailer per your list.
I am picturing being on the beach and seeing someone lay this down on the blanket beside me and blasting shitty ass thump thump music. If you buy this don’t be that asshole on the beach that thinks everyone likes, “woman are bitches and let’s kill cops” music like you do.
@dino2269 this —^
@dino2269 What about women empowerment songs?
In awe at the size of this lad. Absolute unit.
@cpierce
/giphy said she what that’s
Have this. Bought it for my outdoor wedding…Just to play ONE song. Was going to return it but it sounds so good.
It is heavy but solid. The battery lasts forever. The rubber flap at the top is just there to hold a device. You can just take it off if you choose. I use the AUX in to connect to my turntable. The sound kicks ass! This thing is a tank that can bring a tear to your eyes…while listening to Air Supply.
@Bumplepimp What kind did you buy for your indoor wedding?
@cinoclav The two previous weddings? First was an Emerson dual cassette deck Ghetto Blaster. Second was a single speaker cd player rocking some sweet burned MP3s, Downloaded from Napster.
/giphy Expensive-Brick
Where does the knife go?
I’d consider a Braven L. No way I’m buying an XXL. If only they had a Braven Extra-Medium.
@Club33NOS What about a Braven Schmeedium?
I need an intervention. I buy too much Blue-toothy things and stuff
@Brasssong Same here smh
This thing reminds me of the boombox days in the 80’s! Truly an epic period in history where a piece of cardboard and some beats could turn teens into world class breakers.
Makes me blue as it is too expensive for me…
SDF is back!!
@kdemo
Just looked for a speaker dock gif. The tenth gif was this:
I guess they agree.
@kdemo Um, it is not a dock.
@kdemo @PlacidPenguin
The JBL Mini sounds a fair bit nicer and has a rechargeable battery. It would be wonderful to see these magically reappear…
@kdemo @RedOak
Think @sohmageek gave up hope yet of seeing them again?
@hchavers @kdemo Is too a dock. Look at the pictures.
@hchavers - You sure?
@hchavers @kdemo
As per the article from Android Police:
If you look at the overhead image of the speaker which was posted, you would see that the top is (mostly) flat.
I remember when that article from Android Police came out, as I remember laughing at the parts I read. But wow, it’s already been 2 years.
@kdemo @PlacidPenguin @sohmageek
Never give up hope!
(Surely there’s a long ago forgotten pallet somewhere!)
@kdemo @PlacidPenguin @RedOak they’ve changed HQ a few times I think now. They would have left them for the next victim of meh hq1. Also why do some people have a poop next to their names?
@kdemo @RedOak @sohmageek
The powers that be thought that it would be hilarious to give ex-VMP’ers their own badge. Long discussion about it in this thread.
Though now we know that the Rutledges find poop to be hilarious.
@kdemo @PlacidPenguin @sohmageek “forgotten” pallet could refer to anywhere… including in a dusty corner at JBL or a third party wholesaler. #WishfulThinking
18 lbs. ??? I’ll bet you could get a nice wheel kit for it from Harbor Freight (check the generator accessories aisle).
@richferg the bottom third of every one is filled with the garbage other companies countries have been sending to China for the past 20 years.
arg, I detest autocorrect but also need it!
Meh replaced mine… All is good now
@bigkiskewl
Specs
What’s in the Box?
1x Speaker
1x Charger
Price Comparison & Reviews
$299.99 at Amazon
Review: Tom’s Guide
Review: Android Police
Video Review: Braven XXL vs JBL Xtreme
Video: Bass Test
Warranty
90 Days Braven
Estimated Delivery
Thursday, July 9th - Monday, July 13th
Why so ugleh?
Ew what no
Actually, you should really bring the speaker docks back, if only so you can say ($134.99 + $6.39 shipping at Amazon)
I’ve brave[n] enough to click Meh and move on.
Do you have any Furbished models?
Hmm… I already have an IP68 rated waterproof bluetooth speaker that lasts 12hrs on a charge and sounds pretty decent. So I don’t need to spend $150 on the IPX5 rated waterproof bluetooth speaker that lasts 14 hours and probably sounds a bit better. Also I don’t have $150.
Keep trying, meh. Someday you’ll convince me to spend more than $35 on something, but today is not the day.
/giphy not today
I just recently bought the mini Btaven BRV-1 Waterproof speaker from wOOt for $37. The sound quality is pretty good. The nice thing is it’s built like a rock for outdoor use, which fit my need perfectly.
@mfladd i bought this one too from morningsave and love it… but the $150 price is too much. This one is loud enough.
@mfladd How many watts, tho?
@medz I couldn’t find that information. Let me know if you do. I even did a quick search of the ownwers manual.
https://braven.com/braven-brv-1m-waterproof-bluetooth-speaker.html/?SID=japkbud9tjnaa6v56gq47ngqu2
@latamaram How much were they on Morningsave?
@mfladd
$29, though you’d get a discount.
https://morningsave.com/deals/braven-brv-1m-ultra-rugged-waterproof-bluetooth-speaker
@PlacidPenguin WTF! Can I return mine to wOOt?! It hasn’t been thirty days yet.
Fuck! probably not worth it if I am paying the return shipping. I paid sales tax too! Bastards!
@mfladd (scoffs) it doesn’t even have a single watt
@mfladd
Based on their new return policy, yes (and you don’t have to pay the 15% restocking fee).
https://www.woot.com/faq?ref=w_ft_wiw_faq#what-is-woots-return-policy
Although I dunno how much they’d charge you to return it, so you might not even end up saving much.
@mfladd @PlacidPenguin its worth it. I use mine with my tablet for my outside workout class…I don’t use it on max volume. And its not 18#
So…do these output in stereo? I realize that many of today’s Bluetooth speaker users don’t seem to care about stereo (otherwise it would be a published spec), as there are so many millions of Bluetooth mono speakers flooding the market. But some of us still like true stereo sound (two speakers does not a stereo make).
Also, i realize it can be a bit difficult for designers to implement stereo over bluetooth (yet, some headsets seem to do it), but at the very least, it shoyld be stereo over the line-in jack.
Rant over.
@mrdancer p.s. I luv your poo icon!
Conveniently, I’ve been looking to buy one of these larger speakers for the garage and miscellaneous outdoor adventures. I’ve been holding back since I didn’t want to spend $3-400 on one. So this works out for me well! I’ve tested the Braven XXL, the JBL Boombox, and the Monster Blaster. All sound good, the JBL was very directional, the Monster tweeters were too bright for me, and the braven seemed like it was a nice middle ground with solid low end and “warmer” highs. All subjective, YMMV.
/giphy wide-testy-view
Reviewed this for like 2hrs prior to purchase, CAN’T WAIT TO GET IT!!!
This is certainly the least packaged, and probably the most quickly delivered item I have received from Meh. The actual speaker appears undamaged. It was in a plastic bag loose in a bigger box. There is no manual, or paper of any sort other than a wad (inadequate) of packing stuff. It came with a power supply and power cord. the power supply is rated 12V 5A, yet the speaker wants 18V 3.5A. The power cable has had the ground forcibly removed, but I have so many of these cords so NBD. I’m thinking I shouldn’t try to charge this thing…
That’s it. There’s no strap or bottle opener, but whatev. I will probably need to be able to plug it in at the very least.
Next up: I NEED HELP WITH THIS!
@jmkiii
To be fair, they did say that the speaker would only come with a recharger. They didn’t say it would come with the strap.
But those other issues deserve an explanation.
@PlacidPenguin True dat!
@jmkiii Best to write into support about this:
https://meh.com/support
As for the power supply – the wattage may be fine, but at a lower voltage, I won’t count on it recharging well.
12v @ 5A = 60w
18v @ 3.5A = 63w
More from Braven…
@bigkiskewl rut row.
@therealjrn I can just hear the CS people- “Some idiot says they bought a speaker from someplace called Mediocre. Hahahaha!” Will they ever be surprised when they find out they were supposed to fix it.
@sammydog01 HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Meh CS - say talk to Braven
Braven CS - say fuck off, we don’t warranty refurbs through “deal sites”.
Sounds like it’s time for a CC dispute.
@ice992 Meh doesn’t work on weekends- give them a few days. If they don’t help you then you can threaten them. The Braven CS person was probably under informed.
Braven XXL… Mine is damaged and the cord has glue all over it. the speaker is dented. I cannot get it to power on.
Just piling on from my other thread. My speaker won’t power on, either. CS responded pretty quickly to my first email last Friday, so we’ll see how quickly they get back to me now that I’ve asked for a refund. Otherwise, I’ll have to go the CC dispute route.
Meh told me to contact Braven, but I knew it wasn’t worth my time. I spent an additional $17 at Amazon for the correct charging cord. Speaker fully charged in just over 3 hours and works fine now. I’m curious to see if Meh steps up and refunds anyone one. Please post if they do.
Nope
Is this dock as forgettable as the movie of the same name?
“NFC for quick pairing”
Now if only a certain fruit company would fully support new (if you consider 10 years old to be new) technologies.
This would be a good speaker for outdoor movie night. Too bad I already bought an (admittedly sonically superior) Aiwa for that purpose after I bought that projector last year here on Meh. ()
That projector + stand alone 120 inch screen + Aiwa Bluetooth speaker + Apple TV has been a pretty sweet setup for outdoor movie night . . .
@sammypedram That’s not what your neighbors said!
@cinoclav I didn’t know you lived next door! hahahahaha. The key to outdoor movie night if you have neighbors . . . 1. Invite your neighbors. 2. Keep the movie non-offensive as possible. Since we have young kids, that part isn’t too hard luckily.
@sammypedram Yup. And I know you go out there when the kids are asleep and watch adult movies on the big screen.
@cinoclav So you are the bastard that called the police!
@sammypedram Um, no. I was the pervert that was watching from the bushes.
@cinoclav
I seriously researched this for like ten minutes before I realized I don’t use many of my other Meh Bluetooth speakers that regularly. Why would I think a $150 one would be different, except it could be potentially much louder?
It’s almost pool time, though, so the qfx array will come back out for backyard duty soon. They are loud enough for 95% of what I need.
You guys didn’t factor in the 5% coupon amazon is running on this item right now.
$150 vs $275
@Lazarpandar looks like that coupon ended at midnight - it was showing for me but not anymore.
pathetic-psychedelic-gate
That’s about right.
49.99…has great reviews and STEREO! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H7P69LE/ref=psdc_7073956011_t1_B01CX4U7J4
@fastharry 20 watts vs 90 watts
@fastharry @troy That’s like less than half the watts, Harry. What are you trying to pull here?
@troy average backyard wont make a difference…and it’s stereo for more than half the price…
@fastharry Do you really think you’re going to get true stereo separation with speakers 6 inches apart from each other?
@fastharry @medz @troy I think he’s trying to pull a fast one.
I got the same 12v@5A Charger and it had sticky tape all over it…Been trying to charge it for over 4 hours now…still no juice…will leave it over night…It might be DOA though…
@bigkiskewl Try using a spare 3-prong computer power cord if you have one lying around. We tested 6 units this morning – all are fully charging with the supplied 12V power supply, but we did come across one power cord that was defective. The adapter itself was fine.
@troy I have tried that as I have tones of Cords…Power Supply lights up just fine…
I went ahead and put in a Support Ticket…Either the Charger is TOAST or the Box is TOAST…nothing is working
+1 on the issues @jmkiii reported.
Also, only came with 3 of the 4 rubber feet on the bottom.
Unit powers up, but only the downfiring sub plays. The mids/highs aren’t on at all. Turn the volume up, and the mids/highs will crackle once, but that’s all.
Officially the most disappointing purchase from Meh (and previously from woot) ever.
Guess it’s time to put in a ticket.
@ice992
Update- I tried hitting the reset button with a paperclip - no help.
Power cycled it, while holding the reset button in with a paper clip. This for some reason allowed the mids/highs to activate.
Plays music now. Still won’t charge past 1 dot.
Same issues as already mentioned. Poorly packaged - no padding of any kind. My charger is only 12v@3A. It did come covered with sticky tape all over it as well.
Mine came with a 12V@3A charger as well. Can’t get it to charge or turn on at all. Complete dud
@mccullal8 Try using a spare 3-prong computer power cord if you have one lying around. We tested 6 units this morning – all are fully charging with the supplied 12V power supply, but we did come across one power cord that was defective. The adapter itself was fine.
@mccullal8 @troy I have tried that as I have tones of Cords…Power Supply lights up just fine…
NO help from Meh Support Either…They told me to contact Braven…which I did…
This is what I got back from them…
@bigkiskewl
To be fair, the warranty IS from Braven.
From the looks of the email, there shouldn’t be any issues having the speaker checked out by Braven.
@PlacidPenguin Yes but DOA direct from seller? Seller should take care of it…IMHO
@bigkiskewl Whoever is listed in the specs post under the Warranty heading should take care of it as your first line of support. In this case it’s Braven. Meh is weird that way, because they’re not a regular store and often don’t have more of whatever item was sold to replace it. It’s unlikely you’ll be left hanging.
These extras steps in the event something goes wrong are pretty much precisely what allow us to save 50% on that speaker, though, so think of Franklin and Grant while you email a photo and your receipt to the manufacturer.
Braven just denied my warranty claim…
Trini (Braven)
May 17, 10:09 PM CDT
Hello Kevin,
Thank you for contacting Braven! After reviewing your request, you have been denied for a warranty replacement since your Braven speaker was not purchased at one of our authorized retailers. We kindly ask you to take a look at our warranty policy on our website for additional information.
http://www.braven.com/warranty
@bigkiskewl rut row.
@bigkiskewl now meh support should be able to help.
It’s happened before that first line manufacturer support is unaware of the deal that their bosses have made with meh buyers, but that can usually be straightened out.
@bigkiskewl see this post further down. A Mediocre Corporation is the very first entry on their list of authorized retailers. Maybe that will help Trini decide to help.
@bigkiskewl @djslack OR, maybe Trini just doesn’t want to help. Maybe they just wanted to unload some crap and wash their hands of it. Either way, I am glad I stayed away from this mess.
Mine came with a DOA 12V AC Adapter as well (not to mention the crappy packaging). The manual (which you can download from the Braven web site) says that it requires an 18V charger, not 12V. Meh is sending these refurbs out with chargers they know will not work, and it sounds like most of them are DOA as well. Not nice! They refuse to reimburse for the cost of an 18V adapter (around $13 to $17 on Amazon).
@BartCW Good thing you have the Braven warranty.
@therealjrn What warranty? There is no warranty.
@BartCW
There’s supposed to be a 90 day warranty from Braven, but apparently their customer service doesn’t know that.
@BartCW The Limited Warranty http://www.braven.com/warranty
@therealjrn
90 days in this case.
@BartCW and A Mediocre Corporation is the first company on their where to buy list here: https://braven.com/authorized-retailers
So you may need to mention Mediocre instead of Meh to make it easier.
@BartCW @Ignorant Ooh, under “A” instead of “M”. Maybe that’s what threw the Braven CS person.
@sammydog01 haha must have been. MorningSave is there too if that helps.
@BartCW @Ignorant I did mention it…and got no where…Meh sent me a FEDEX Label to return it to them…
Ok…So we have no warranty right now, I have tried and tried again to get Braven to warranty the product…
@bigkiskewl
Wow. This is not reflecting so well on Braven.
@bigkiskewl @PlacidPenguin Not a good look for Braven.
@bigkiskewl @therealjrn @dave
Really reflecting a not great look for Braven.