When used as a tool for communication with your dog, and not used punitively, this is a great tool that can strengthen the bond between you and your dog. Negative reinforcement is used to increase a behavior that you do want the dog to do. It is NOT punishment, which is used to decrease a behavior that you don’t want. (An example of negative reinforcement is your seat belt alarm that dings until you put it on. It increases you wearing your seat belt, and it stops the instant that you do. An example of punishment is getting a ticket for speeding. It is meant to decrease you speeding. You have to pay it even if you don’t speed again.)
I know that for me, using this to train my extremely intelligent and exceedingly stubborn 120lbs rescued Weimeraner meant the difference in me being able to keep her or being another person who gave up on her and gave her away. She is taller than me (I’m 5’9") when she stands up and loves to surprise hug people. It is a dangerous behavior that I can’t have in my house as we have people who are already unsteady on their feet. I am wholeheartedly a positive reinforcement person, but after months of daily training and her just not doing what we needed with any consistency, I was forced to find an alternative. I am fortunate that she responded immediately to the beeping function, and so we never had to use the shocking mechanism, but I would have if the beeping or vibrate functions hadn’t worked. This type of collar saved her life, in my opinion. In all the rescue work I have done, what I have seen is that a dog that jumps up on people, or that bites is not likely to live in very good conditions, and many are euthanized. Being trained using this tool is a far better alternative in my opinion. My dog doesn’t live with this on, but if we have a visitor who is older, very little or for whatever reason is unsteady on their feet, we put it on her. It is like her work collar. After less than one day of training with the collar, she knows that when the collar is on her, or even just out and on the table, that we expect a higher level of compliance. With this, she doesn’t have to spend the entire time that we have the visitor in our house in her kennel or outside. It’s like her work uniform, and she is suddenly the best behaved, and most well trained dog I have ever seen when she is wearing it. I am thankful to Jeff Gellman for his YouTube videos.
@ChompyGator Or maybe don’t adopt a special needs dog that you’re not prepared to have professionally trained? You know, instead of abusing them? You haven’t taught your dog how to behave. You’ve taught them how to be fearful. You get that, right? Your dog, who desperately wants to make you happy, is now deathly afraid of you every time that collar comes out. Great job.
@Tadlem43 Yet you use the word “threaten” to describe it. I’m sure it’s not actually as traumatic as including physical abuse (assuming you only plan to spray them with water, not hit them with the bottle), but isn’t threatened violence considered psychologically as real as actual violence?
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not a doctor (or vet or psychologist). I don’t even play one on TV. I just try to assimilate knowledge as I come across it.
To be clear, I have no dog in this fight.
I have no dog at all.
I’m just trying to understand where the line between “training” and “abuse” lies… if it can even be defined. (I presume it’s not simple or clearcut, else it would be a solved problem already.)
@ChompyGator very well written and excellently explained! Pay no attention to all the dweebs criticizing you on the thread! They are all No Doubt brain damaged sjw types who still live in their mother’s basement!
@doubltap I want you to know I forgive you because your life that brought you to this moment to take the time to reply call me a “dweeb” and “p****” for caring about dogs probably stems from having a really rough upbringing. I’m guessing you had a dad who taught you to that the way to “be a man” is to never show emotion except anger. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was physical abuse in your household. Maybe you asked for a dog and he said no, or maybe you had a dog, and your father was the kind of man who would hit it with a rolled up newspaper if they ever peed in the house.
You’ll never admit to this, of course, but that’s ok. If I’m hitting any truths here, I seriously want you to know that the pit of sadness and anger that you always feel is from that trauma, and that seeking therapy to find real happiness isn’t weakness but one of the bravest things a human can do.
You see, even though I’m upset at @ChompGator for using this thing, I can tell they’re doing what they think is best for the wellbeing of their dog and friends and family, particularly the elders in their life. That’s a noble goal. I encourage them to get professional help for their dog in the future instead of resorting to this this type of fear-based teaching, but I don’t think they ever wanted to actually hurt their dog, they just didn’t want their dog to break grandma’s hip.
And @doubltap, you could have just said you agreed with them and what they did, and that’s one thing, but you were compelled to also use insults specifically meant to imply a lack of “manliness,” because a “real man” doesn’t give a crap about a dog’s feelings — you gotta whack that dog with the newspaper to show them who’s in charge, right?
Am I getting warm?
Look, @doubltap, you could be anything from a 23-year-old guy actually living in his mom’s basement and projecting, to a fit dude in his late 30s with a well paying job and a nice house and a big new SUV and a beautiful wife and 2-1/2 kids. Or maybe your middle-aged and divorced and wonder why your kids don’t speak to you? It’s actually makes me the most sad to think that you have that successful suburban life because that means you’ve done all the things to be “successful” and to “be a man,” but that pit just doesn’t go away, does it? You voted for Trump but were still unhappy come 2020, and it’s so hard to admit your were hoodwinked by a conman so you blame people you’ve never seen in your life for your ongoing anger and depression.
Because you see, @doubltap, happy people — and I’m talking about people who have faced their inner fears and demons and learned to be empathetic and compassionate and kind — those folks just don’t feel the need to demean others to feel better about themselves. To throw out terms like “sjw,” which really just refers to a group of people who care about other people, shows that you think compassion and empathy and actual happiness are signs of weakness because you can’t find those things in yourself. But, I promise you, man, you can. It’s hard work. You gotta face those demons. You gotta risk being vulnerable and honest eith yourself. But if you do that, I’m telling you it’s so much better.
Here’s the thing, man, your insult meant nothing to me. You didn’t make me sad or angry or feel weak. I know who I am. I was jyst going to ignore it. But then I thought, maybe, just maybe, this man just needs one person to tell him that he is worthy of love and happiness. Maybe he just needs to have someone tell him that when you free yourself if that toxic, non-sustainable constant anger and resentment… you’ll find a world of genuine connection and care and support and love. You’ll laugh more, and it won’t be at the expense of others. You’ll have people who show up in the bad times and celebrate the good times. Maybe you’ll even be ready for a dog who will love you unconditionally instead of cowering in fear. Cause, man, it’s a tough world, but every morning my beautiful wife tells me she loves me and my two little weird amazing funny dogs kiss my face and cuddle up to me, and it’s just a lovely way to live. And I sincerely hope you can find that because it’s so much better than being miserable and feeling compelled to insult strangers to prove your manliness.Good luck.
@ChompyGator completely agree. I am not going to be popular after saying this but after spending THOUSANDS on professional training and even sending @Charliedoggo to day school (8 hrs a day/5 days a week) there were issues we could not work thru.
The trainers strongly suggested an e-collar and I resisted, until one point. I wore it. I let them use it on me, I used it on myself. Around my hand, wrist and neck because different skin thickness and sensitivity. Was not going to try it until I knew what it felt like.
Here is the deal. Vibrate, it gets their attention. The shock is like using a tens unit. Starting at zero and working my way up, I felt NOTHING until it hit about 25 or so. At that point, I was like, uh I THINK I feel a sensation. Was not sure that is what it was until over 30.
When we put it on Charlie (led by a professional trainer) we got as high as 4 or 5 before he would move his head like hey was that something? And that was as high as we would go. Has it gotten higher over time. Yes, but not really even to 20. He has never been hurt,l, but he would have hurt himself with the behaviors he WAS exhibiting had I not done something.
At some point it was not necessary to use that part. He still wears it and if he isnt paying attention when he needs to I buzz the vibrator, thats it.
He is a very happy doggo. He is not abused, and he lives a great life.
So I get the bad rep these things get, and if used incorrectly or irresponsibly they can hurt someone, but so can any tool. This is a tool and must be used properly with respect. That goes for a lot of things.
@xobzoo lol Good grief! They’re dogs. They have to be trained. You can’t sit there and explain to them why they are allowed to do something and why they aren’t. You have to teach them right from wrong.
I don’t believe in hitting my dogs, but I have trained them that if they start chasing the cats, for example, that is wrong. I don’t think they’ll suffer undue psychological damage because I hold up a spray bottle. lol That’s nothing like shocking their THROAT to get them to obey.
@Tadlem43 But didn’t you use the word “abuse” to describe the beeping function of the collar? I thought that’s all @ChompyGator was talking about.
As others have pointed out, accidental association might make beeps worse for some dogs, but it seems like most of the time it falls in the same general category of “alerting, but not harming” the dog.
@CharlieDoggo@ChompyGator@tinamarie1974 I want to note that you have given a very specialized case and after resisting (I think correctly), you did use a similar device with direct professional supervision. And to be clear I’m not overreacting or unreasonable, I will say your situation sounds like a measured appropriate use of this device for a very difficult case.
However this should absolutely not be a device available for $24.99 with a cavalier joke attached to it. Far more dogs will be traumatized next month from folks buying this than dogs who will lead happy lives as a result of its use.
@ChompyGator@xobzoo There are certain frequencies of sound that actually HURT a dog’s ears.
And this is a shock collar. Not something that massages them to sleep.
It’s clear to see that you are correct. You know nothing about dogs.
@CharlieDoggo@ChompyGator@Portmandia thank you and I would agree I would be concerned about the quality of the collar being offered. I can tell you Charlie has a Dogtra and it was around $300. Nothing inexpensive, nor should it be.
@ChompyGator In this instance there really isn’t a meaningful difference between positive punishment and negative reinforcement. Positive punishment = dog does a thing you don’t want them to (jumps on someone), a stimulus is applied to make them not want to do that thing. Negative reinforcement = dog doesn’t do thing (jumping on someone) so that they do not experience the stimulus. It’s both, and it’s ridiculous to say that you aren’t punishing the dog.
@ChompyGator Thank you for being a voice of reason and knowledge amongst the people who believe this kind of shock collar are ‘animal abuse’ and choose to insult and belittle others with their opinions.
@Portmandia To agree with, I don’t agree the use of these types of devices. But how I feel particularly with it being sold on Meh is majority of products sold by Meh, or at least most of the electronic products I’ve purchased, has malfunctioned. And my worry would be if this thing doesn’t malfunction by being inert is if it malfunctions by being dangerous. Such as a stuck signal to keep the shock continuous or the beep or vibrate causing the shock to go off.
I have had a fair few products from Meh that have had such incidents. Such as being zapped by headsets, lamps, and such. I know the shock collar shouldn’t be that strong. But I’m not sure how I feel about a collar that deliberately shocks sold where many items don’t work as anticipated.
@blaineg This would make a lot more sense if I was announcing my departure from this forum. But I wasn’t. I was announcing that I wasn’t giving meh monthly money anymore, my only real recourse for my opposition to this offering. My reasons and “diatribe” were in my cancellation note to meh. This was just to say, “Hey, I’m cancelling my subscription,” and it looks like that resonates with a handful of folks — and I hope they follow suit. I want this mistake to have a real bottom line impact on meh. As for the forums… I just don’t care. I don’t care about attention or drama. In this case, I just care about the welfare of dogs, and if my posts make even one person change their mind about buying this, I’ve had a good day.
Oh also, this “beeps never hurt anyone” BS isn’t cute. Or did the sociopaths at Meh who thought that this was a good idea forget that digs have incredibly sensitive hearing and can associate certain noises with trauma for the rest of their lives and have actually physical panic attacks that actually do cause real physical and mental harm.
Look, I’m not even a “positive reinforcement only” kind of person or a some kind of hippie animal rights activist. I’m just a normal guy who loves dogs, and I’ve taken an hour out of my life to read about dog behavior and training from well-respected professionals. And, you know, just hang out with dogs. And let me tell you, this torture device ain’t it.
Yes, most training should be positive to praise good behavior, but I think it’s perfectly appropriate to give your dog a firm “No” when they’re not behaving correctly. But this collar is literally abuse. And meh thought they’d be cute about it. “It beeps. Hee hee.” Go f*** yourselves.
Doubt me? If you’re even flirting with the idea if getting this, why don’t you call your local vet tomorrow morning and ask what they think of shock collars? Give your neighborhood Petco training center a quick ring and ask if they use shock collars in their classes. Spoiler, they’re going to say, “Absolutely not. That’s abuse.”
Damn, meh. Just do better. I hope this one really bites you in the ass and you lose so many customers that it will make you literally panic about staying afloat by Monday. I’ve been around since the beginning and a monthly member for 3 years. I’m a member of the Schrödinger’s Toothbrush club. I literally have a meh package on the way to me. And now you’ve lost me for life. Hope it was worth it!
@squishybrain Thanks for asking! And note, I’m not a professional or expert. I just have had dogs for over 20 years and I dogsit and foster often, and I love getting to know dogs. I can’t speak to the severity of the vibration, but I presume most dogs find it very unpleasant. As for the beep, dogs have incredibly sensitive hearing, so depending on the severity of the sound, it could cause them physical pain.
More importantly, they have no idea where it’s coming from or why it’s happening. So the “good behavior” that results isn’t good behavior at all. It’s the dog being afraid of being hurt when they see that collar or hear a similar beep down the road. My little dog can sleep through fireworks, but when she hears a vacuum seal jar pop, like opening a salsa jar or doing warm bath home canning, she physically starts shaking and her heart rate skyrockets and I have to hold her for 20+ minutes until she calms down again. Why? I don’t know. Maybe an associated trauma before we we adopted her? Maybe it’s just a sharp sound that hurts her little ears? But it is physical and mental torture to her, and you don’t want to literally create a similar scary sound that will traumatize your dog for life.
When you say a firm (but not screaming) “no!” when a dog shows an undesired behavior, they understand it’s coming from their human, and they want to make their humans happy. Ever accidentally step on a dog’s paw and make them yelp in pain? What does the dog do? Basically look to you as if they need to apologize because they’re worried you’re mad at them.
Some dogs, maybe the beep isn’t a big deal. But why risk literally giving your dog a lifetime of trauma over a beep, you know?
@Portmandia Thank you for the calm and reasoned answer. I’ve had no reason to research it, so I’ve never heard what’s wrong with the collars on whichever settings (though it stands to reason that inducing a negative experience might have long-term complications).
I would imagine that the particular reactions to each setting will depend on the dog (and their particular history), but the safest thing is probably to assume the worst. (Just like with humans.)
Do dogs have extremely good hearing? Yes. Are they traumatized by beeps? Absolutely not. When my tea kettle starts whistling my dog barely looks up if she’s lying in the kitchen - and that annoys me.
Of course this could be used to abuse a dog, so could a leash. Both are training tools and when used properly are simply a way for better communication between dog and person, especially at distance or in times of high distraction. I understand the actual shock portion being controversial but if you’re even arguing against the beep and vibration, that’s an argument against any dog training other than positive reinforcement which just is not realistic for most dogs.
@benjyhe There’s literally a post bellow of someone saying their dog was traumatized by a beeping collar. In another post I literally say “not all dogs.” The point isn’t that some dogs will be fine. The point is that some dogs will be traumatized, and it’s not worth it. There are better ways to train.
@benjyhe@Portmandia just ask for a clicker next time you’re at the pet store. Cheap/free, provides a clear distinct indicator as positive reinforcement, and the indicator comes directly from the trainer, paired with body language and treats, who can react quickly to signs of distress. It’s gonna take a lot more work to get a dog to learn to react to some random confusing unavoidable stimulus from its collar. Oh, and the clicker doesn’t come with a shock setting…
@Portmandia Why are you so irrationally angry and verbally abusive over this? We get it, you don’t approve of the item for sale. State your piece and leave. Continuing to berate the website and its users just makes you look like an ass.
@PooltoyWolf I’ll actually answer you seriously and try to make it as thoughtful as I can. The folks I’m really going after with verbal abuse are the guys who are throwing out these very toxic masculinity insults… “dweeb, p*****, you live in your mom’s basement, I have big muscles and guns, blah blah” These guys are bullies and they’re use to getting a rise out of compassionate people. I have one response to bullies — punch back, hard. You want to come after me, you’re going to get 100x back worse.
Otherwise, if you read through my replies, you’ll find that I’m conceding points, thanking people for their thoughtful replies, and answering good faith questions. As I am trying to do with now.
Now, am I angry. Oh you bet I am. Irrationally? Well, let me ask you this. I’m going to safely presume you’re either a parent or someone who cares about the general well being of children. There have been some jokes here about using these for unruly kids, but imagine if the product was actually for kids. I mean replace “dog” with kid on the main page. Is there any level of anger over that irrational? I don’t think so. And that’s how I feel about this product and dogs. And dogs can’t use the Internet, so for the day this is up, I’m going to actively discourage as many people as possible to not buy this and to show those who have used it they were wrong to do so (with the exception of the one poster who used one in a very special case as a last resort with professional supervision).
In about 3 hours, this will be gone, and so will I. But in the meantime - yeah, I’m mad as hell, and if I change one person’s mind, I’ve made the world better for one dog, and for that, I’ll argue my point until I’m blue in the face.
For all the naysayers, I have owned a variety of pets and livestock throughout my lifetime; and have shown some of them to a national level. I’m not a professional, but I do know a lot about training animals. I live in a very remote area, and my dog is allowed to roam freely, as we live on 20 acres and no neighbors.
Our dog is an Australian kelpie, whom we rescued at 4 years old, after she had been rescued and returned by at least 2 other adopters; due to her high energy and “destruction” of their properties. I felt a connection with this dog, and had a feeling that she was a great animal and likely just needed lots of exercise. I was right, but we had a very trying early few months. After running our cats up trees many times, and several successful attempts to break free from the leash on walks, we made the tough decision to try a shock collar.
For those not familiar with them, they will only allow the animal to receive a shock for a very quick interval before it is automatically stopped, and the user has full control over the intensity. After many training sessions with the collar, my kitties now safely roam the yard again, and my dog can be walked leash-free, and no longer runs away. She has complete freedom now, because of the collar training.
Anyone who uses a collar abusively should be prosecuted for animal cruelty, but there are pets who need a training aid such as this to help them focus and remember proper behavior.
@NovaE2016 Sir, if you’re elderly, lanky, weak, young, stressed, handicapped, mentally ill, or can’t afford to hire TLC’s Dog Whisperer, then you’re not allowed to own a dog.
This device is capable of sending 240V, and we can’t trust people using it to not electrocute the dog, so we must bar people from buying it! Meh selling this, is enabling people to torture their dogs. Isn’t that crazy?
Yes. Exactly. That is crazy. Everyone acts like some kind of hero on the internet, they don’t even understand how it works.
@NovaE2016@Vladiator exactly. if you can’t train a dog without this, you shouldn’t have a dog. and if you fucking “rescued” a dog and started shocking it, you didn’t rescue shit. you just put it in another bad situation.
@fosiacat@NovaE2016@Vladiator again, uninformed. Try using facts vs slander. I have a very happy and well adjusted doggo. Yiu in thr other hand should of had your mouth washed out with soap as a child.
@NovaE2016@Vladiator You might start by researching voltage vs. amperage. Static electricity shocks measure in the tens of thousands of volts - but with only a harmless bit of amperage.
It is amps, not volts, that you need to watch out for.
@NovaE2016@tinamarie1974@Vladiator no, you have a dog thats fucking terrified of you because you abuse it. why don’t you wear one and let people zap you every time you say something stupid, like your comments on here?
@fosiacat@NovaE2016@Vladiator my dog is NOT afraid of me. He sleeps belly up all the time (not a sign of a terrified pet) He is a VERY happy boi. And if you read my earlier comment you would know I put on the collar and experienced the shock at a rate HIGHER than what my dog has EVER experienced. So go crawl back in the hole you came from.
@fosiacat@NovaE2016@tinamarie1974 This thread has literally killled me. This is an automated ghost reply triggered only if I have passed away following any argumentative replies. It was nice knowing all of you, and I bid you all a happy life.
The atom bomb this product being sold set off truly blew my mind. So many misinformed, angry people…where is the comment downvote button? Some peoples’ true natures have really been shown today. Personally I’m not bothered enough to cancel my membership and bad-mouth everyone who disagrees with me.
@PooltoyWolf
This is certainly the most comments/longest comments I have seen in a long time.
And (thankfully) it didn’t (overall) devolve into a right vs left political shitshow to accomplish that.
@phendrick that’s entirely up to his parents and interpretation of local child abuse statutes pertaining to corporal punishment by law enforcement, child protective services and maybe a federal agency or two.
A lot for your family to think about. Hope there are good results forthcoming. No coincidence that this is the Lenten season, a time for renewal before Easter.
I’m pretty surprised to see something like this on here. It is inherently inviting controversy and not in a good way. I hope they got a really good deal on these because I can’t imagine they’re going to sell well (hope not) but also a lot of people are probably going to be pissed and think twice about patronizing meh.
Please for the love of god learn from this and never do this again.
@Vladiator I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying you’re a cruel person who doesn’t care about animal welfare, probably because of childhood trauma. You’re the one who had to mention all the other stuff that is really just code for “My dad never loved me and I’m insecure about my penis size.” And I’m really sorry, that has to suck. But talk therapy does wonders, most sexual partners don’t care as long as you’re attentive to their needs, and caring about other people and animals is such a happier way to live, my man. I hope you find some joy and laughter in your life sometime that doesn’t involve bragging about yourself or putting others down. I promise you it’s such a more fulfilling way to live.
@Portmandia@Vladiator I don’t know which side is right in this argument but this comment by Portmandia is the first time I’ve wished for a downvote button here. “Childhood trauma?” Seriously? Dude, go outside and get a life. This comment is worthy of a ban from the forum.
@evmc@Vladiator I mean, I said “probably.” Look, owning a firearm or a knife or muscular arms isn’t a big deal. Making an straw man argument (“I guess I should be on death row”) followed by announcing that you possess these things, line by line? It’s a classic right-wing toxic masculinity bullying move meant to demean and intimidate liberals, and I’m going to punch back. Look, I didn’t even mean it as an insult. I seriously meant, who hurt you to think that’s a proper way to make a point? Why are you so insecure? Needing to announce you have weapons and have big muscles in a discussion about dog cruelty? WTF is that? Is it a threat? A cry for help? I don’t know.
Listen, if I crossed a line, I’m sorry. Sincerely. But I can tell you this much — the guys who bring up that they own a knife and a gun in a forum about anything else? Well let’s just say I’ve never met anyone with a need to do that who’s dad said “I love you” or ever showed any physical affection growing up, ok? And Vlad, if that’s not you… don’t do this straw man ad hominem nonsense. Be better. If it is? Talk therapy is an amazing way to get past that crap, and you didn’t deserve it.
As for the ban, don’t worry. As soon as this item comes down, I won’t be back.
@snapster - do something you have never done before. REMOVE THIS ITEM FROM TODAY’S SALE AND SELL NOTHING. Don’t resell it on any other sides, don’t give it out in IRKS, don’t put it in your morningsave brick and mortar, don’t ship it, refund those who bought it. Just crush them (so the dumpster divers don’t get them and resell them) and put them in your dumpster. Read the other comments on this thread about these!!!
First time commenting on Meh.
Years ago, we received something like this as a gift, being told that it’s a safe “training device.” As first-time dog owners, we didn’t know any better and thought it’d be okay as long as we never used the shock. We only used the “beep” and “vibration” for barking on-and-off for about 6 months.
8 years later, our dog is now terrified of beeping noises. The ceiling fan remote, air purifier, anything that makes a beep gets him nervous. When there are multiple beeps, he goes under the couch. This has been especially problematic whenever he needed anesthesia (annual dental cleanings, x-rays, ultrasounds, PRP, MRI/CTs, surgeries etc).
The constant beeping during anesthesia (before full sedation and during the wakening) makes his heart rate very high, so the vet staff have to monitor him carefully. He is now an old dog with orthopedic issues, and he still trembles in fear during our weekly laser appointments (the machine makes a constant beeping sound). If we could go back in time, we would have NEVER used the collar.
That being said, the person that gifted us the collar was someone that used to be a trainer. Reading some other comments here, it seems like a few people had some success with this. If you really are at a dead-end and truly have no other solution, I would make sure to REALLY research and LEARN how to properly use something like this so you don’t end up with a traumatized pet. If you don’t know what you’re doing or you’re not actively monitoring the ENTIRE time when the collar is on, don’t even start.
Locally just a couple of days ago a dog went past his electric fence, had so many shocks with no idea how to make them stop he was trembling and freaking out by the time a passerby found him, caught him, and took the collar off to get the shocks to stop.
These things are dangerous and totally can traumatize your animal, not to mention if they are so focused on what is happening they aren’t paying attention to the street…
Were it not for DHS taking a dim view of this - super gluing them to a teenager who tends to sneak out at night… that would be a safe use since they know they aren’t supposed to sneak out and would know enough to go back in the window… and as a side benefit less damage to furniture than handcuffing them to their bed, and easier on you than making them drag their mattress into your room to sleep on your floor after they are caught…
@tinamarie1974 I agree. And that, in my opinion, is also the danger in these things - people misusing them. I believe the person who found the dog is not going to return it to it’s owner were the owner to come forward to try to reclaim their dog. The person who rescued the dog didn’t post a picture and apparently there is a shelter that is going to take the dog.
@Kidsandliz@tinamarie1974 Hmm, haven’t we already established that reinforcing good behavior is more effective and preferable to punishing unwanted behavior?
@tinamarie1974 I would agree with you on what the owners did not do. The problem I see is people buying these and then using them in abusive ways; failure to know how to use them properly (or not caring about that). That kind of behavior doesn’t need enabled by selling these things cheaply on sites like meh.
@Kidsandliz Your example describes an invisible fence, not a remotely controlled collar. The situation you describe could never occur with the collar being sold here today. This is considered spreading false information.
After reading the linked Amazon review, I am intrigued. Not interested in the shock or beep features, but the vibration could be useful. I have a deaf dog and we go on a lot of off-leash hikes in the woods. He is pretty good at responding to hand signals, but if he is out of sight or preoccupied exploring something, it can be frustrating trying to get his attention at a distance. And he is all about the treats, so some training as described in the Amazon review could be effective.
@macromeh And it sure would make sense (your potential use) if a collar would be sold that would only vibrate. That I wouldn’t complain about as hurting/traumatizing the dog would be far less likely as it would be much harder to misuse.
@macromeh when our lab went deaf having an E-collar was a huge help. Our dog was also well trained with hand signals but like you say, they didn’t work unless he was looking at us.
I feel like this is an important topic, but the discussion has become too emotionally charged to get anything useful out of it now. A bit like the feudin’ days of old.
I was willing to just ignore what’s being sold, like most days at Meh, but now I’m afraid to ever get a dog at all. I don’t think I’m a bad person, and I would never knowingly be mean to a pet, but now I’m worried that anything I do might be construed as abusive.
I think I’ll bow out now before I’m brow-beaten into swearing off all pets forever.
@xobzoo I sincerely hope you change your mind someday. Having animal companions has been the most rewarding experience in my life. But it’s serious business and hard work, and there’s a lot of conflicting information out there. But if you reconsider, pay a visit to your local humane society. Many have free classes to learn about dog ownership and training before you go all in. Ask questions about what breeds might be good for your lifestyle and how to properly train and discipline a pet. If you build a relationship with a dog that is based on love and not fear (and listen, this collar is about fear, which is why a lot of experienced dog owners are speaking out), you’ll find your dog teaches you more than you teach them.
@xobzoo And hey, I confess I’ve been the guy in this comic before. In this case, I don’t care about someone being wrong — I care about the welfare of the dogs. That’s it.
OK, so I guess I’ll weigh in. I unfortunately have experience with a similar collar. My dog was still young and still had some separation anxiety issues that had manifested themselves as a bout of barking when I left her alone, but that had mostly subsided. Until I had to move to another apartment. I spoke with the new neighbors about her barking until she settled in and they were very understanding when informing me that she barked, literally, all day while I was at work. After several days of this she was barking herself hoarse, the neighbors weren’t going to put up with it for long, and I still had to go to work.
I couldnt directly correct her behavior, because she didn’t have any issues except when she was alone. And I couldn’t use positive reinforcement until she wasn’t barking. Just showing her attention would reinforce that barking gets her what she wants, I would be reinforcing barking as a desirable behavior. I got a shock collar (activated by sensing a bark, no remote) and read a ton of training advice. I tried the collar out on myself to see how much it would hurt. The lowest 3 settings sucked, but I wouldn’t deem them cruel under supervision, and I had no intention of letting it get past the lowest setting anyway.
I took some time before work to work with her and the collar. (Listen, this fucking sucked, and I hated it, but I didn’t have time or space to use gentler techniques.) Without the collar I left the house and waited a few minutes listening to her bark, came back in, barking stops but I ignored her. Round 2 same thing; wait outside a bit longer. Ignore her for a bit longer. Then I gave her love and time to calm down. Then went for another set of leaves. No progress on her not barking at all. More loves and calming. Then I put the collar on her and repeated the process. She ignored the first level, and the whimper at the second level was heartbreaking, but she stopped barking and I counted to 10, rushed inside, took the collar off and gave her love and more time to relax. Had she persisted through the shocks, I would have discontinued using the collar right away, and not tried again. I repeated this one more time, she didn’t make it past the lowest level, no whimper, just a bark and then silence. Count to ten, rush inside, collar off, loves, treats, relaxation. Then I took the batteries out of the collar, and put it on her before leaving for work later. She didn’t bark at all according to the neighbors, but she did bark her excited greeting when I got home (phew, she wasn’t too stressed by the collar). I put the unpowered collar on her when I went to work the next day. No barking. Then I finally had a day off to work with her some more without the collar, but she had pretty much learned that barking wasn’t a variable in me leaving/coming home so we could focus more on reassuring her that I was always gonna come back and that she could be comfy in the new home.
It is a tool and there are times when it’s… justifiable, but I wouldn’t recommend a shock collar. It did work with my dog to expedite the training, which I felt was necessary at the time. However I’m confident I would have eventually been successful without it. I wouldn’t consider using one in the future.
Don’t buy this. Especially on a whim. It’s a very serious responsibility, won’t work the same for all dogs, and it’s a shitty experience all around.
Sorry, Meh, a deals website is not a place to responsibly sell these, if they can be responsibly sold to the general public at all.
@troy none of them should be selling them. If you really think you need one, you should be talking to your vet and/or a professional trainer. They can provide you with one and make sure you know how to use it properly. Deciding to use such extreme correction should not be done on impulse, and should not be convenient or cheap.
Edit to add… It’s really not a good look for an employee to be getting all defensive in the forums. Y’all gambled on a controversial products. Take the L and move on… It’s a shame, I thought I might regret canceling my VMP last month…
@Oneroundrobb@troy a) just because those companies sell them doesn’t make it right. b) Because meh sells ONE THING and depends on impulse buys, it puts a bad device in more people’s hands who might have ignored buying one otherwise, and c) meh can succeed without selling casual animal cruelty, but instead they’ve put this item front and center for cheap for 24 hours on a Sunday. It’s a very deliberate choice, and one that has turned myself (and I think many others) away as a customer or member.
The sheer volume of mental illness and absurd vitriol pouring out in response to this collar says more about the commenters than it does about the collar. If the collar works as advertised, this is a great deal. If you really have dogs and have dealt with dogs that respond to nothing else, then you already know this is a great tool for training and keeping a dog safe. Yes–SAFE. Not everyone lives in a human cage or on a postage stamp. Keeping dogs safe in natural settings often requires a collar like this, especially when training the pooch. Have any of you horrified snowflakes ever seen a dog that wouldn’t listen to commands or accept training be killed by a bobcat, coyote, bear, or poisonous snake? Didn’t think so. If you had, you’d know why these exist and why they are such a valuable tool.
@squishy459za YES! Most “city folks” just don’t get it. I got one because I have horses and a have a silly German Shepherd “puppy” who likes to chase them. Well the horses don’t like to be chased! I have seen him kicked in the head (just a glancing blow) and I have been terrified that he is going to be killed by one of my horses. The very first time I used the collar (2 days ago) seems to have corrected the problem. He has no interest in chasing horses anymore! So, tell me people, would it be better to let the horses kill my dog? Or for my dog to go through a couple of mild shocks?
@blaineg@canneddirt I think there is some merit to this. I might be enticed to start watching professional soccer again if they did this.
EXCEPT I don’t go at all for zapping an opposing player when they make a good play. But any player who gets away with a foul should be zapped immediately, at least with a 5. That includes pushing off when you are bringing up the ball. And at least a 4 to any player who flops. Any open kick that sails over the net should earn a zap, at least one number for each foot over the goal (or each 13 cm, in Europe). Maybe a 5 should go with a yellow card and a 6 with a red card?
Speaking of pushing off, they should also use these in the NBA (where the phrase “non-contact sport” has no meaning).
[OTOH, maybe those players already whine too much? But, whining could earn an additional zap.]
How about in the NFL, too, at least to reward the “adults” who do all the childish things after scoring a touchdown; the bigger the group, the higher the zap number! (Maybe an interactive audience vote on this via phone app or cable box remote?)
@blaineg@canneddirt@rpstrong or Very Small Feet, but mine aren’t.
You’re right:
I was confusing 1 yard = 39 cm with one foot as 39 cm. (Should’ve googled first…)
We tried a beeping collar. Ended up with a dog that was frightened every time anything in the house beeped more than twice. When we had power outages and our UPS would start beeping the dog would freak until it was over. Got a UPS I could turn off the beeper, then the click of the relay scared the dog.
@senor_sriracha Thank you for sharing this story. Some folks are posting “my dog wasn’t traumatized by beeps.” And of course, not all dog will be. But the risk of something like this happening is very serious, and by sharing your story, it’s clear you meant the best for your dog and continue to for all dogs, but at the time you were sold a false bill of goods just like meh is doing now saying beeps aren’t harmful.
A lot of people are calling myself and others posting against this “righteous.” I’m not. I’m someone who has made a lot of mistakes with dogs, especially with my first dog, who was an angel who taught me more than I ever taught her despite the fact that I made many mistakes. I’m just trying to share what I’ve learned. And this collar — this ain’t it.
@Portmandia “you were sold a false bill of goods just like meh is doing now saying beeps aren’t harmful.”
Did you notice the part where that same dog is now afraid of the UPS relay clicking? Click trainers make a much louder and sharper noise than a UPS relay click, plus a UPS clicks once as it goes over to battery (and once again as it goes back to utility supply). Is click-training an abusive training method because some dogs are afraid of clicks?
You also noted in an earlier comment that you aren’t a professional dog trainer, you’ve just owned a lot of dogs. It’s truly terrible that some people use shock collars improperly or even deliberately abusively, but as somebody else noted, even mild electric shocks are a tool, one that professional trainers do recommend using in particular ways in certain situations with some dogs. And the idea that a beep as a training tool is inherently abusive is frankly too extreme to countenance — some dogs are shy of anything. Some dogs can and do become traumatized by a firm command voice. Training by giving treats or withholding them can cause food-guarding behavior issues in some dogs. If no dog can ever be trained by any method that might cause trauma or problem behavior for any dog, there are no acceptable training methods at all. Of course if your dog is traumatized by beeps you don’t use a beep collar to train it, but that doesn’t make a beep itself inherently abusive. It means you have to adjust to what works or doesn’t with a specific dog.
You apparently just don’t like training collars at all of any type in any situation, which is fine, but it doesn’t make you a morally superior person to somebody who uses them as recommended by a professional trainer to resolve problem behaviors quickly for the sake of the dog.
And for those who say “Meh shouldn’t sell these so cheaply”, coming at it purely from a harm-reduction perspective, which would you rather — somebody buy a cheap training collar like this, that comes with some instructions on proper use and is something professionals use as a tool and can further advise on proper use of, or have people who can’t afford a $300 training collar keep whacking the dog in the nose with an even cheaper stick? Because somebody who would abuse a dog with a cheap shock collar isn’t going to be a model dog owner just for the lack of one.
@Kingmiwok It’s a good question. I am a meat eater. It’s something I’ve certainly wrestled with before. For instance, I stopped eating octopus because I think there’s strong evidence to suggest that they are sentient. But ultimately I have accepted that we have evolved to be omnivores. That doesn’t mean I’ve stopped trying to reduce animal cruelty when I can. For instance, I think there are few animals as tortured as an industrial egg-laying hen, and I raise chickens in my backyard and buy maybe a total of 2 dozen eggs a year during the deepest parts of winter. However, the reason I’m very concerned about dog welfare is that they are an animal whose evolution has been entirely guided by humans, and they are genetically programmed to love and trust humans, which is why a betrayal of that trust is so much more severe and damaging to a dog for their entire lives.
We live in a complicated world where it’s hard to always make choices that are devoid of suffering somewhere in the chain of ramifications. But that doesn’t mean that one is purely a hypocrite for being a meat eater and asking others to not electrocute their animal companions whose word for god is their owner. I do not claim to be perfect or holier than thou. I just think there are much better alternatives to electrocution and harsh beeps to train a dog, and I think using those techniques without the guidance of a professional who sees it as a training option of last resort will do far more harm than good in the world, and I hope folks consider that before buying this item. And I hope meh takes a meaningful hit to their memberships and sales because of this to send a message that their customers reject this sort of item soundly.
The answer is very simple
This should be a two for Tuesday and if you put it on your dog you have to put it on yourself and there is one controller
I would be fine with someone using it like that
I am a dog lover/owner who lives in a rural area so our family is the dumping ground of unwanted dogs. Generally we have gotten through to all the dogs with love and verbal instruction but the instinctual reactions some breeds have can be tough to manage.
Ex a black lab jumping through a closed window to fetch a Frisbee at a cookout or the scent response of a beagle/blue tick hound mix (only dog of ours to have a dog run). Not sure this kind of collar would help
I have not read all the comments on a Meh offering in quite a while, this was enlightening. @Portmandia, I appreciate your intensity of belief and purpose on this product. I do, however, feel like you lost a lot of folks with your psychoanalysis of the root cause of commentary. You obviously have a lot of experience with dogs, but you also appear to have an overinflated sense of your ability to know what others are thinking or have experienced. Your points could have been easily made without your acting like your recommendations for talk therapy were well grounded in your understanding of the individuals you were responding to.
It’s pretty simple:
Put a long leash on your dog and use small flags to mark the perimeter. Don’t feed your dog that morning and take them outside. When they get too close to the flags, set the beeper or vibration to go off, give the dog a small pull on the leash, and reward it with a few giblets of food.
and some pets. Repeat that several times, then see if you can do it without the leash. That’s step-by-step instructions we learned from a professional service dog trainer. Pavlov would have never gotten anywhere trying to punish a dog for not salivating.
Product: PetSpy Dog Training Shock Collar for Medium to Large Dogs
Model: B079P16NMG
Condition: New
Helps correct barking, wandering off, aggressive leash pulling, and more from up to 1100 yards away
Bright orange collar is highly visible for added safety
3 training modes: Sound, vibration, and static shock
8 adjustable levels for dogs with different sensitivities
Contact points are covered with conductive silicone caps to avoid skin irritation
Rechargeable receiver with remote activation, includes power-saving movement sensor
100% waterproof
Suitable for all dog breeds from 10-140 pounds
For adult dogs and puppies over 6 months old
Notes:
Proper fit of the collar is important: a collar worn for a too long time or placed too tight or loose on a pet’s neck may cause skin irritation or damage
Avoid leaving the collar on dogs for more than 4 hours a day
Adjustable Collar: 8"-26" L
Material: Durable nylon TPU
Collar Range: 1100 Yards
What’s Included?
1x PetSpy Dog Training Shock Collar (Medium/Large)
The laundry mat was empty except for a sketchy guy wearing a shock collar that also beeps. He was wearing high heels and had a strange expression on his face. I tried to ignore him and focus on my laundry, but he kept staring at me. Suddenly, the collar beeped and he flinched. I couldn’t help but wonder what kind of punishment awaited him. I quickly finished my laundry and left, feeling uneasy. As I walked away, I heard the sound of high heels clicking behind me. I turned around and saw the sketchy guy following me. I quickened my pace and hurried away, hoping to never see him again.
I am truly leaving meh, the forums, everything (yes, I promise, @evmc, and I’m sorry if I’ve been tiresome). But this item is still for sale, and @kensey brought up some points that I think are very worthy of clarification, as this is a complexed, nuanced issue, where the nuance has been spread throughout my posts and straight-up missed at times. So I’m doing a summary post here.
I have a flair for the dramatic in my writing (I know, shock). I did get get nasty with a couple of posts that I saw as straight up right-wing shtposts, and if it appears to be a real human behind those, I don’t play with that (there were two posters – one with straight-up insults, another bragging about owning weapons). With anyone else actually wanting to discuss this, I have truly endeavored to give thoughtful replies, although there was one poster in particular I was snarky to (@ChompyGator), and I apologize if I stepped over the line. To anyone I offended or upset (other than the two shtposters I referred to), I sincerely apologize. To any snarky comments I made to meh, I do not apologize (see reasoning below).
I’m not trying to be morally superior. I’m just trying to keep dogs from being needlessly traumatized. Dogs, however, are as varied and complex as humans – if not more. Nothing is 100%.
One quick note to @kensey who replied to a post regarding a UPS beeping and clicking – regarding the UPS clicking triggers. I took that to be a case where the dog in question was traumatized by beeps. The UPS made a beep that was traumatizing and then the dog associated the traumatizing beeps with the clicks which became their own trigger. I’m actually not a big fan of clicker training in general, but with many dogs (particularly active sporting/occupational dogs), they can clearly be a fantastic tool, and I think it is a sound that is less likely to physically hurt a dog’s ears (as beeping can depending on volume and pitch). As long as the dog clearly doesn’t flinch or show discomfort when the click happens, it can be a fine training tool.
To summarize my full view:
I am generally against training collars because I am nearly universally against causing any degree of pain or discomfort for a dog as part of their training, even relatively minor pain. Dogs can associate all sorts of things with pain and trauma, and every dog is different. There is not one way to train all dogs. However, I am in favor of positive reinforcement training as much as possible. There are three reasons I am particularly upset that meh is selling this device, and collectively this is why I (and I think a few others) are ending their relationship with meh over this:
As a daily deal site, one item gets a big focus for 24 hours. Yes, other stores sell this item, and while I wish they didn’t, it’s one of thousands. On meh, it’s just one. Meh sells items at a discount.
Taken with (1), this means that meh relies on a lot of impulse purchases. Impulse purchases of this item could also lead to impulsive use of this item. Meh advertised “beeping never hurt anyone.” This is incredibly misleading. Yes, many dogs aren’t traumatized over beeps. Some are, and many more can become traumatized over beeps. It was a flippant way to advertise something that they shouldn’t have sold in the first place, and saying it was harmless was false advertising. In short, dogs react to sounds differently than humans do, and we shouldn’t generalize in this way.
And to answer the question should these ever be used? I will concede that in a small percentage of cases where there is extremely difficult to break undesired behaviors and it is regarded as a training method of last resort and it is done with professional supervision/advice, then yes. But if you are asking me should this device be available for an impulse purchase for $25 where many of those qualifiers will not apply? No, it most definitely should not be.
Finally, to reply to @kensey on the question which would I rather have, somebody using a cheap training collar like this with some instruction, or someone who continues to “train” their dog with a cheap stick. I consider this question to be a false dichotomy. Such a person shouldn’t own a dog period – that’s the only answer I can give.
Again, I am sorry if I upset anyone who has a sincere concern about dog safety with my more passionate replies. But if I discouraged anyone from buying this who might have used it without extensive research, consideration, and/or professional help, I am happy I helped prevent even one dog from experiencing a traumatizing event.
When used as a tool for communication with your dog, and not used punitively, this is a great tool that can strengthen the bond between you and your dog. Negative reinforcement is used to increase a behavior that you do want the dog to do. It is NOT punishment, which is used to decrease a behavior that you don’t want. (An example of negative reinforcement is your seat belt alarm that dings until you put it on. It increases you wearing your seat belt, and it stops the instant that you do. An example of punishment is getting a ticket for speeding. It is meant to decrease you speeding. You have to pay it even if you don’t speed again.)
I know that for me, using this to train my extremely intelligent and exceedingly stubborn 120lbs rescued Weimeraner meant the difference in me being able to keep her or being another person who gave up on her and gave her away. She is taller than me (I’m 5’9") when she stands up and loves to surprise hug people. It is a dangerous behavior that I can’t have in my house as we have people who are already unsteady on their feet. I am wholeheartedly a positive reinforcement person, but after months of daily training and her just not doing what we needed with any consistency, I was forced to find an alternative. I am fortunate that she responded immediately to the beeping function, and so we never had to use the shocking mechanism, but I would have if the beeping or vibrate functions hadn’t worked. This type of collar saved her life, in my opinion. In all the rescue work I have done, what I have seen is that a dog that jumps up on people, or that bites is not likely to live in very good conditions, and many are euthanized. Being trained using this tool is a far better alternative in my opinion. My dog doesn’t live with this on, but if we have a visitor who is older, very little or for whatever reason is unsteady on their feet, we put it on her. It is like her work collar. After less than one day of training with the collar, she knows that when the collar is on her, or even just out and on the table, that we expect a higher level of compliance. With this, she doesn’t have to spend the entire time that we have the visitor in our house in her kennel or outside. It’s like her work uniform, and she is suddenly the best behaved, and most well trained dog I have ever seen when she is wearing it. I am thankful to Jeff Gellman for his YouTube videos.
@ChompyGator Or maybe don’t adopt a special needs dog that you’re not prepared to have professionally trained? You know, instead of abusing them? You haven’t taught your dog how to behave. You’ve taught them how to be fearful. You get that, right? Your dog, who desperately wants to make you happy, is now deathly afraid of you every time that collar comes out. Great job.
@ChompyGator I’m guessing you believe spanking little children is perfectly okay too?
@ChompyGator Abusing your dog is no excuse for you not training it.
The worst I do to my dogs is threaten them with a water bottle.
@Tadlem43 Yet you use the word “threaten” to describe it. I’m sure it’s not actually as traumatic as including physical abuse (assuming you only plan to spray them with water, not hit them with the bottle), but isn’t threatened violence considered psychologically as real as actual violence?
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not a doctor (or vet or psychologist). I don’t even play one on TV. I just try to assimilate knowledge as I come across it.
To be clear, I have no dog in this fight.
I have no dog at all.
I’m just trying to understand where the line between “training” and “abuse” lies… if it can even be defined. (I presume it’s not simple or clearcut, else it would be a solved problem already.)
@ChompyGator very well written and excellently explained! Pay no attention to all the dweebs criticizing you on the thread! They are all No Doubt brain damaged sjw types who still live in their mother’s basement!
@doubltap I want you to know I forgive you because your life that brought you to this moment to take the time to reply call me a “dweeb” and “p****” for caring about dogs probably stems from having a really rough upbringing. I’m guessing you had a dad who taught you to that the way to “be a man” is to never show emotion except anger. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was physical abuse in your household. Maybe you asked for a dog and he said no, or maybe you had a dog, and your father was the kind of man who would hit it with a rolled up newspaper if they ever peed in the house.
You’ll never admit to this, of course, but that’s ok. If I’m hitting any truths here, I seriously want you to know that the pit of sadness and anger that you always feel is from that trauma, and that seeking therapy to find real happiness isn’t weakness but one of the bravest things a human can do.
You see, even though I’m upset at @ChompGator for using this thing, I can tell they’re doing what they think is best for the wellbeing of their dog and friends and family, particularly the elders in their life. That’s a noble goal. I encourage them to get professional help for their dog in the future instead of resorting to this this type of fear-based teaching, but I don’t think they ever wanted to actually hurt their dog, they just didn’t want their dog to break grandma’s hip.
And @doubltap, you could have just said you agreed with them and what they did, and that’s one thing, but you were compelled to also use insults specifically meant to imply a lack of “manliness,” because a “real man” doesn’t give a crap about a dog’s feelings — you gotta whack that dog with the newspaper to show them who’s in charge, right?
Am I getting warm?
Look, @doubltap, you could be anything from a 23-year-old guy actually living in his mom’s basement and projecting, to a fit dude in his late 30s with a well paying job and a nice house and a big new SUV and a beautiful wife and 2-1/2 kids. Or maybe your middle-aged and divorced and wonder why your kids don’t speak to you? It’s actually makes me the most sad to think that you have that successful suburban life because that means you’ve done all the things to be “successful” and to “be a man,” but that pit just doesn’t go away, does it? You voted for Trump but were still unhappy come 2020, and it’s so hard to admit your were hoodwinked by a conman so you blame people you’ve never seen in your life for your ongoing anger and depression.
Because you see, @doubltap, happy people — and I’m talking about people who have faced their inner fears and demons and learned to be empathetic and compassionate and kind — those folks just don’t feel the need to demean others to feel better about themselves. To throw out terms like “sjw,” which really just refers to a group of people who care about other people, shows that you think compassion and empathy and actual happiness are signs of weakness because you can’t find those things in yourself. But, I promise you, man, you can. It’s hard work. You gotta face those demons. You gotta risk being vulnerable and honest eith yourself. But if you do that, I’m telling you it’s so much better.
Here’s the thing, man, your insult meant nothing to me. You didn’t make me sad or angry or feel weak. I know who I am. I was jyst going to ignore it. But then I thought, maybe, just maybe, this man just needs one person to tell him that he is worthy of love and happiness. Maybe he just needs to have someone tell him that when you free yourself if that toxic, non-sustainable constant anger and resentment… you’ll find a world of genuine connection and care and support and love. You’ll laugh more, and it won’t be at the expense of others. You’ll have people who show up in the bad times and celebrate the good times. Maybe you’ll even be ready for a dog who will love you unconditionally instead of cowering in fear. Cause, man, it’s a tough world, but every morning my beautiful wife tells me she loves me and my two little weird amazing funny dogs kiss my face and cuddle up to me, and it’s just a lovely way to live. And I sincerely hope you can find that because it’s so much better than being miserable and feeling compelled to insult strangers to prove your manliness.Good luck.
@ChompyGator completely agree. I am not going to be popular after saying this but after spending THOUSANDS on professional training and even sending @Charliedoggo to day school (8 hrs a day/5 days a week) there were issues we could not work thru.
The trainers strongly suggested an e-collar and I resisted, until one point. I wore it. I let them use it on me, I used it on myself. Around my hand, wrist and neck because different skin thickness and sensitivity. Was not going to try it until I knew what it felt like.
Here is the deal. Vibrate, it gets their attention. The shock is like using a tens unit. Starting at zero and working my way up, I felt NOTHING until it hit about 25 or so. At that point, I was like, uh I THINK I feel a sensation. Was not sure that is what it was until over 30.
When we put it on Charlie (led by a professional trainer) we got as high as 4 or 5 before he would move his head like hey was that something? And that was as high as we would go. Has it gotten higher over time. Yes, but not really even to 20. He has never been hurt,l, but he would have hurt himself with the behaviors he WAS exhibiting had I not done something.
At some point it was not necessary to use that part. He still wears it and if he isnt paying attention when he needs to I buzz the vibrator, thats it.
He is a very happy doggo. He is not abused, and he lives a great life.
So I get the bad rep these things get, and if used incorrectly or irresponsibly they can hurt someone, but so can any tool. This is a tool and must be used properly with respect. That goes for a lot of things.
@ChompyGator @Portmandia Deathly afraid of a beeping collar? Is that somehow worse than a dog who is deathly afraid of a verbal scolding?
So many words for “I don’t know how to train a dog”
@xobzoo lol Good grief! They’re dogs. They have to be trained. You can’t sit there and explain to them why they are allowed to do something and why they aren’t. You have to teach them right from wrong.
I don’t believe in hitting my dogs, but I have trained them that if they start chasing the cats, for example, that is wrong. I don’t think they’ll suffer undue psychological damage because I hold up a spray bottle. lol That’s nothing like shocking their THROAT to get them to obey.
@Tadlem43 But didn’t you use the word “abuse” to describe the beeping function of the collar? I thought that’s all @ChompyGator was talking about.
As others have pointed out, accidental association might make beeps worse for some dogs, but it seems like most of the time it falls in the same general category of “alerting, but not harming” the dog.
@CharlieDoggo @ChompyGator @tinamarie1974 I want to note that you have given a very specialized case and after resisting (I think correctly), you did use a similar device with direct professional supervision. And to be clear I’m not overreacting or unreasonable, I will say your situation sounds like a measured appropriate use of this device for a very difficult case.
However this should absolutely not be a device available for $24.99 with a cavalier joke attached to it. Far more dogs will be traumatized next month from folks buying this than dogs who will lead happy lives as a result of its use.
@ChompyGator @xobzoo There are certain frequencies of sound that actually HURT a dog’s ears.
And this is a shock collar. Not something that massages them to sleep.
It’s clear to see that you are correct. You know nothing about dogs.
@CharlieDoggo @ChompyGator @Portmandia thank you and I would agree I would be concerned about the quality of the collar being offered. I can tell you Charlie has a Dogtra and it was around $300. Nothing inexpensive, nor should it be.
@ChompyGator In this instance there really isn’t a meaningful difference between positive punishment and negative reinforcement. Positive punishment = dog does a thing you don’t want them to (jumps on someone), a stimulus is applied to make them not want to do that thing. Negative reinforcement = dog doesn’t do thing (jumping on someone) so that they do not experience the stimulus. It’s both, and it’s ridiculous to say that you aren’t punishing the dog.
@ChompyGator @Portmandia I’m now convinced you know nohing about the subject.
@ChompyGator Thank you for being a voice of reason and knowledge amongst the people who believe this kind of shock collar are ‘animal abuse’ and choose to insult and belittle others with their opinions.
@Portmandia To agree with, I don’t agree the use of these types of devices. But how I feel particularly with it being sold on Meh is majority of products sold by Meh, or at least most of the electronic products I’ve purchased, has malfunctioned. And my worry would be if this thing doesn’t malfunction by being inert is if it malfunctions by being dangerous. Such as a stuck signal to keep the shock continuous or the beep or vibrate causing the shock to go off.
I have had a fair few products from Meh that have had such incidents. Such as being zapped by headsets, lamps, and such. I know the shock collar shouldn’t be that strong. But I’m not sure how I feel about a collar that deliberately shocks sold where many items don’t work as anticipated.
Another day, another shit project – this time with casual normalized animal abuse!
Yeah, I’ve owned dogs my entire life (most rescues), and view this as cruel and abusive. Disappointed in Meh for offering this.
@thechinglish yeah no shit – this is enough to make me stop buying shit from meh. what the fuck kind of asshole company would sell this shit.
@fosiacat @thechinglish That’s a bit much, dont you think?
Selling an animal abuse collar, wow.
I’m cancelling my membership over this. Absolutely shameful.
@Portmandia IAw go hump yourself you big p****!
@Portmandia
@blaineg This would make a lot more sense if I was announcing my departure from this forum. But I wasn’t. I was announcing that I wasn’t giving meh monthly money anymore, my only real recourse for my opposition to this offering. My reasons and “diatribe” were in my cancellation note to meh. This was just to say, “Hey, I’m cancelling my subscription,” and it looks like that resonates with a handful of folks — and I hope they follow suit. I want this mistake to have a real bottom line impact on meh. As for the forums… I just don’t care. I don’t care about attention or drama. In this case, I just care about the welfare of dogs, and if my posts make even one person change their mind about buying this, I’ve had a good day.
@Portmandia I hope this is satire.
@blaineg @Portmandia There was no ‘mistake’. Shock collars of this type are not animal abuse and equating them to actual animal abuse is disingenuous.
Oh also, this “beeps never hurt anyone” BS isn’t cute. Or did the sociopaths at Meh who thought that this was a good idea forget that digs have incredibly sensitive hearing and can associate certain noises with trauma for the rest of their lives and have actually physical panic attacks that actually do cause real physical and mental harm.
Look, I’m not even a “positive reinforcement only” kind of person or a some kind of hippie animal rights activist. I’m just a normal guy who loves dogs, and I’ve taken an hour out of my life to read about dog behavior and training from well-respected professionals. And, you know, just hang out with dogs. And let me tell you, this torture device ain’t it.
Yes, most training should be positive to praise good behavior, but I think it’s perfectly appropriate to give your dog a firm “No” when they’re not behaving correctly. But this collar is literally abuse. And meh thought they’d be cute about it. “It beeps. Hee hee.” Go f*** yourselves.
Doubt me? If you’re even flirting with the idea if getting this, why don’t you call your local vet tomorrow morning and ask what they think of shock collars? Give your neighborhood Petco training center a quick ring and ask if they use shock collars in their classes. Spoiler, they’re going to say, “Absolutely not. That’s abuse.”
Damn, meh. Just do better. I hope this one really bites you in the ass and you lose so many customers that it will make you literally panic about staying afloat by Monday. I’ve been around since the beginning and a monthly member for 3 years. I’m a member of the Schrödinger’s Toothbrush club. I literally have a meh package on the way to me. And now you’ve lost me for life. Hope it was worth it!
@Portmandia Honest question. What is wrong with using the beep or vibration function on this collar?
@squishybrain Thanks for asking! And note, I’m not a professional or expert. I just have had dogs for over 20 years and I dogsit and foster often, and I love getting to know dogs. I can’t speak to the severity of the vibration, but I presume most dogs find it very unpleasant. As for the beep, dogs have incredibly sensitive hearing, so depending on the severity of the sound, it could cause them physical pain.
More importantly, they have no idea where it’s coming from or why it’s happening. So the “good behavior” that results isn’t good behavior at all. It’s the dog being afraid of being hurt when they see that collar or hear a similar beep down the road. My little dog can sleep through fireworks, but when she hears a vacuum seal jar pop, like opening a salsa jar or doing warm bath home canning, she physically starts shaking and her heart rate skyrockets and I have to hold her for 20+ minutes until she calms down again. Why? I don’t know. Maybe an associated trauma before we we adopted her? Maybe it’s just a sharp sound that hurts her little ears? But it is physical and mental torture to her, and you don’t want to literally create a similar scary sound that will traumatize your dog for life.
When you say a firm (but not screaming) “no!” when a dog shows an undesired behavior, they understand it’s coming from their human, and they want to make their humans happy. Ever accidentally step on a dog’s paw and make them yelp in pain? What does the dog do? Basically look to you as if they need to apologize because they’re worried you’re mad at them.
Some dogs, maybe the beep isn’t a big deal. But why risk literally giving your dog a lifetime of trauma over a beep, you know?
@Portmandia Thank you for the calm and reasoned answer. I’ve had no reason to research it, so I’ve never heard what’s wrong with the collars on whichever settings (though it stands to reason that inducing a negative experience might have long-term complications).
I would imagine that the particular reactions to each setting will depend on the dog (and their particular history), but the safest thing is probably to assume the worst. (Just like with humans.)
@Portmandia
Do dogs have extremely good hearing? Yes. Are they traumatized by beeps? Absolutely not. When my tea kettle starts whistling my dog barely looks up if she’s lying in the kitchen - and that annoys me.
Of course this could be used to abuse a dog, so could a leash. Both are training tools and when used properly are simply a way for better communication between dog and person, especially at distance or in times of high distraction. I understand the actual shock portion being controversial but if you’re even arguing against the beep and vibration, that’s an argument against any dog training other than positive reinforcement which just is not realistic for most dogs.
@benjyhe There’s literally a post bellow of someone saying their dog was traumatized by a beeping collar. In another post I literally say “not all dogs.” The point isn’t that some dogs will be fine. The point is that some dogs will be traumatized, and it’s not worth it. There are better ways to train.
@benjyhe @Portmandia just ask for a clicker next time you’re at the pet store. Cheap/free, provides a clear distinct indicator as positive reinforcement, and the indicator comes directly from the trainer, paired with body language and treats, who can react quickly to signs of distress. It’s gonna take a lot more work to get a dog to learn to react to some random confusing unavoidable stimulus from its collar. Oh, and the clicker doesn’t come with a shock setting…
@Portmandia Why are you so irrationally angry and verbally abusive over this? We get it, you don’t approve of the item for sale. State your piece and leave. Continuing to berate the website and its users just makes you look like an ass.
@PooltoyWolf I’ll actually answer you seriously and try to make it as thoughtful as I can. The folks I’m really going after with verbal abuse are the guys who are throwing out these very toxic masculinity insults… “dweeb, p*****, you live in your mom’s basement, I have big muscles and guns, blah blah” These guys are bullies and they’re use to getting a rise out of compassionate people. I have one response to bullies — punch back, hard. You want to come after me, you’re going to get 100x back worse.
Otherwise, if you read through my replies, you’ll find that I’m conceding points, thanking people for their thoughtful replies, and answering good faith questions. As I am trying to do with now.
Now, am I angry. Oh you bet I am. Irrationally? Well, let me ask you this. I’m going to safely presume you’re either a parent or someone who cares about the general well being of children. There have been some jokes here about using these for unruly kids, but imagine if the product was actually for kids. I mean replace “dog” with kid on the main page. Is there any level of anger over that irrational? I don’t think so. And that’s how I feel about this product and dogs. And dogs can’t use the Internet, so for the day this is up, I’m going to actively discourage as many people as possible to not buy this and to show those who have used it they were wrong to do so (with the exception of the one poster who used one in a very special case as a last resort with professional supervision).
In about 3 hours, this will be gone, and so will I. But in the meantime - yeah, I’m mad as hell, and if I change one person’s mind, I’ve made the world better for one dog, and for that, I’ll argue my point until I’m blue in the face.
For all the naysayers, I have owned a variety of pets and livestock throughout my lifetime; and have shown some of them to a national level. I’m not a professional, but I do know a lot about training animals. I live in a very remote area, and my dog is allowed to roam freely, as we live on 20 acres and no neighbors.
Our dog is an Australian kelpie, whom we rescued at 4 years old, after she had been rescued and returned by at least 2 other adopters; due to her high energy and “destruction” of their properties. I felt a connection with this dog, and had a feeling that she was a great animal and likely just needed lots of exercise. I was right, but we had a very trying early few months. After running our cats up trees many times, and several successful attempts to break free from the leash on walks, we made the tough decision to try a shock collar.
For those not familiar with them, they will only allow the animal to receive a shock for a very quick interval before it is automatically stopped, and the user has full control over the intensity. After many training sessions with the collar, my kitties now safely roam the yard again, and my dog can be walked leash-free, and no longer runs away. She has complete freedom now, because of the collar training.
Anyone who uses a collar abusively should be prosecuted for animal cruelty, but there are pets who need a training aid such as this to help them focus and remember proper behavior.
@NovaE2016 Sir, if you’re elderly, lanky, weak, young, stressed, handicapped, mentally ill, or can’t afford to hire TLC’s Dog Whisperer, then you’re not allowed to own a dog.
This device is capable of sending 240V, and we can’t trust people using it to not electrocute the dog, so we must bar people from buying it! Meh selling this, is enabling people to torture their dogs. Isn’t that crazy?
Yes. Exactly. That is crazy. Everyone acts like some kind of hero on the internet, they don’t even understand how it works.
@NovaE2016 @Vladiator
Nope, you clearly have never researched, been trained to use one or used one properly. Thanks for pointing that out!
@NovaE2016 @Vladiator exactly. if you can’t train a dog without this, you shouldn’t have a dog. and if you fucking “rescued” a dog and started shocking it, you didn’t rescue shit. you just put it in another bad situation.
@NovaE2016 @tinamarie1974 @Vladiator how do you “properly” electrocute a dog you idiot
@fosiacat @NovaE2016 @Vladiator again, uninformed. Try using facts vs slander. I have a very happy and well adjusted doggo. Yiu in thr other hand should of had your mouth washed out with soap as a child.
@NovaE2016 @Vladiator You might start by researching voltage vs. amperage. Static electricity shocks measure in the tens of thousands of volts - but with only a harmless bit of amperage.
It is amps, not volts, that you need to watch out for.
@NovaE2016 @tinamarie1974 @Vladiator no, you have a dog thats fucking terrified of you because you abuse it. why don’t you wear one and let people zap you every time you say something stupid, like your comments on here?
@fosiacat @NovaE2016 @Vladiator my dog is NOT afraid of me. He sleeps belly up all the time (not a sign of a terrified pet) He is a VERY happy boi. And if you read my earlier comment you would know I put on the collar and experienced the shock at a rate HIGHER than what my dog has EVER experienced. So go crawl back in the hole you came from.
@fosiacat @NovaE2016 @tinamarie1974 This thread has literally killled me. This is an automated ghost reply triggered only if I have passed away following any argumentative replies. It was nice knowing all of you, and I bid you all a happy life.
@NovaE2016 @rpstrong @Vladiator Thank you for beating me to the punch with this. So many uninformed people on the Internet.
The atom bomb this product being sold set off truly blew my mind. So many misinformed, angry people…where is the comment downvote button? Some peoples’ true natures have really been shown today. Personally I’m not bothered enough to cancel my membership and bad-mouth everyone who disagrees with me.
Some people need to grow up.
@PooltoyWolf
This is certainly the most comments/longest comments I have seen in a long time.
And (thankfully) it didn’t (overall) devolve into a right vs left political shitshow to accomplish that.
@chienfou Don’t jinx it!!
this will be perfect for my 12 year old nephew.
on sooooooo many levels.
@alacrity
“for” or “on”?
@phendrick that’s entirely up to his parents and interpretation of local child abuse statutes pertaining to corporal punishment by law enforcement, child protective services and maybe a federal agency or two.
@alacrity
Must be a real problem child. I hope they find a good approach soon.
I was going to recommend trying one of the “scared straight” methods, but decided I better check a little closer first, and found this
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wyoming-christian-troubled-teen-ranches-abuse-rcna46112
They talk about issues in programs in quite a few places.
A lot for your family to think about. Hope there are good results forthcoming. No coincidence that this is the Lenten season, a time for renewal before Easter.
Remminds me of
@squishybrain 12 Quatloos to anyone that gets this reference.
@squishybrain Wasn’t there three squishy brains?
@squishybrain I see people either like green hair or Star Trek more. I’m going with the green hair.
@rpstrong @squishybrain Yep.
I’m pretty surprised to see something like this on here. It is inherently inviting controversy and not in a good way. I hope they got a really good deal on these because I can’t imagine they’re going to sell well (hope not) but also a lot of people are probably going to be pissed and think twice about patronizing meh.
Please for the love of god learn from this and never do this again.
@ReusableBox It’s called “engagement”.
Companies seem to love it for some reason.
Goodbye meh. I needed a reason to cancel and this will do it.
@jamielynn
@jamielynn Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
@jamielynn I’ve been thinking about it all day. I think I’ll join you. I’ve been an VMP for a long time. I guess it’s time to move on.
@jamielynn @Tadlem43 cept jamielynn is still a member
@jamielynn @tinamarie1974 I’m not.
@Tadlem43 @tinamarie1974 ah got distracted earlier, thanks for the reminder.
So if I own this, I’m automatically a an inmate on death row convicted of torturing animals.
Wait until people hear I own a firearm.
And a pocket knife.
And a much worse, jacked arms.
The internet’s passion for self-righteousness never ceases to amaze me.
@Vladiator duh.
@Vladiator You’re exaggerating. It would be unconstitutional for anyone to be on death row for keeping and bearing jacked arms.
@Vladiator I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying you’re a cruel person who doesn’t care about animal welfare, probably because of childhood trauma. You’re the one who had to mention all the other stuff that is really just code for “My dad never loved me and I’m insecure about my penis size.” And I’m really sorry, that has to suck. But talk therapy does wonders, most sexual partners don’t care as long as you’re attentive to their needs, and caring about other people and animals is such a happier way to live, my man. I hope you find some joy and laughter in your life sometime that doesn’t involve bragging about yourself or putting others down. I promise you it’s such a more fulfilling way to live.
@Portmandia Half funny, half s’ worst community I’ve ever seen in my life lol
@Portmandia @Vladiator I don’t know which side is right in this argument but this comment by Portmandia is the first time I’ve wished for a downvote button here. “Childhood trauma?” Seriously? Dude, go outside and get a life. This comment is worthy of a ban from the forum.
@evmc @Vladiator I mean, I said “probably.” Look, owning a firearm or a knife or muscular arms isn’t a big deal. Making an straw man argument (“I guess I should be on death row”) followed by announcing that you possess these things, line by line? It’s a classic right-wing toxic masculinity bullying move meant to demean and intimidate liberals, and I’m going to punch back. Look, I didn’t even mean it as an insult. I seriously meant, who hurt you to think that’s a proper way to make a point? Why are you so insecure? Needing to announce you have weapons and have big muscles in a discussion about dog cruelty? WTF is that? Is it a threat? A cry for help? I don’t know.
Listen, if I crossed a line, I’m sorry. Sincerely. But I can tell you this much — the guys who bring up that they own a knife and a gun in a forum about anything else? Well let’s just say I’ve never met anyone with a need to do that who’s dad said “I love you” or ever showed any physical affection growing up, ok? And Vlad, if that’s not you… don’t do this straw man ad hominem nonsense. Be better. If it is? Talk therapy is an amazing way to get past that crap, and you didn’t deserve it.
As for the ban, don’t worry. As soon as this item comes down, I won’t be back.
@evmc @Portmandia @Vladiator Promise?
You’re quite tiresome.
Did… me clicking meh cause a bunch of emojis fly up?
@mikesmells just like yesterday
@craigthom @mikesmells I hate it.
@craigthom @mikesmells And the day before.
@ardycake @craigthom @mikesmells No matter - just click on ‘Buy’ instead.
@snapster - do something you have never done before. REMOVE THIS ITEM FROM TODAY’S SALE AND SELL NOTHING. Don’t resell it on any other sides, don’t give it out in IRKS, don’t put it in your morningsave brick and mortar, don’t ship it, refund those who bought it. Just crush them (so the dumpster divers don’t get them and resell them) and put them in your dumpster. Read the other comments on this thread about these!!!
First time commenting on Meh.
Years ago, we received something like this as a gift, being told that it’s a safe “training device.” As first-time dog owners, we didn’t know any better and thought it’d be okay as long as we never used the shock. We only used the “beep” and “vibration” for barking on-and-off for about 6 months.
8 years later, our dog is now terrified of beeping noises. The ceiling fan remote, air purifier, anything that makes a beep gets him nervous. When there are multiple beeps, he goes under the couch. This has been especially problematic whenever he needed anesthesia (annual dental cleanings, x-rays, ultrasounds, PRP, MRI/CTs, surgeries etc).
The constant beeping during anesthesia (before full sedation and during the wakening) makes his heart rate very high, so the vet staff have to monitor him carefully. He is now an old dog with orthopedic issues, and he still trembles in fear during our weekly laser appointments (the machine makes a constant beeping sound). If we could go back in time, we would have NEVER used the collar.
That being said, the person that gifted us the collar was someone that used to be a trainer. Reading some other comments here, it seems like a few people had some success with this. If you really are at a dead-end and truly have no other solution, I would make sure to REALLY research and LEARN how to properly use something like this so you don’t end up with a traumatized pet. If you don’t know what you’re doing or you’re not actively monitoring the ENTIRE time when the collar is on, don’t even start.
DO NOT BUY
Locally just a couple of days ago a dog went past his electric fence, had so many shocks with no idea how to make them stop he was trembling and freaking out by the time a passerby found him, caught him, and took the collar off to get the shocks to stop.
These things are dangerous and totally can traumatize your animal, not to mention if they are so focused on what is happening they aren’t paying attention to the street…
Were it not for DHS taking a dim view of this - super gluing them to a teenager who tends to sneak out at night… that would be a safe use since they know they aren’t supposed to sneak out and would know enough to go back in the window… and as a side benefit less damage to furniture than handcuffing them to their bed, and easier on you than making them drag their mattress into your room to sleep on your floor after they are caught…
@Kidsandliz so the dog was not properly trained with the collar. Shame on its owners. They deserve to be punished
@tinamarie1974 I agree. And that, in my opinion, is also the danger in these things - people misusing them. I believe the person who found the dog is not going to return it to it’s owner were the owner to come forward to try to reclaim their dog. The person who rescued the dog didn’t post a picture and apparently there is a shelter that is going to take the dog.
@Kidsandliz @tinamarie1974 Hmm, haven’t we already established that reinforcing good behavior is more effective and preferable to punishing unwanted behavior?
@tinamarie1974 I would agree with you on what the owners did not do. The problem I see is people buying these and then using them in abusive ways; failure to know how to use them properly (or not caring about that). That kind of behavior doesn’t need enabled by selling these things cheaply on sites like meh.
@Kidsandliz Your example describes an invisible fence, not a remotely controlled collar. The situation you describe could never occur with the collar being sold here today. This is considered spreading false information.
@PooltoyWolf Thank you for correcting me. I thought they could be used for both.
@Kidsandliz No worries! I just try to set things straight when I can.
This is not something I want to see on this site. Please be better.
After reading the linked Amazon review, I am intrigued. Not interested in the shock or beep features, but the vibration could be useful. I have a deaf dog and we go on a lot of off-leash hikes in the woods. He is pretty good at responding to hand signals, but if he is out of sight or preoccupied exploring something, it can be frustrating trying to get his attention at a distance. And he is all about the treats, so some training as described in the Amazon review could be effective.
@macromeh And it sure would make sense (your potential use) if a collar would be sold that would only vibrate. That I wouldn’t complain about as hurting/traumatizing the dog would be far less likely as it would be much harder to misuse.
@macromeh when our lab went deaf having an E-collar was a huge help. Our dog was also well trained with hand signals but like you say, they didn’t work unless he was looking at us.
I feel like this is an important topic, but the discussion has become too emotionally charged to get anything useful out of it now. A bit like the feudin’ days of old.
I was willing to just ignore what’s being sold, like most days at Meh, but now I’m afraid to ever get a dog at all. I don’t think I’m a bad person, and I would never knowingly be mean to a pet, but now I’m worried that anything I do might be construed as abusive.
I think I’ll bow out now before I’m brow-beaten into swearing off all pets forever.
@xobzoo I sincerely hope you change your mind someday. Having animal companions has been the most rewarding experience in my life. But it’s serious business and hard work, and there’s a lot of conflicting information out there. But if you reconsider, pay a visit to your local humane society. Many have free classes to learn about dog ownership and training before you go all in. Ask questions about what breeds might be good for your lifestyle and how to properly train and discipline a pet. If you build a relationship with a dog that is based on love and not fear (and listen, this collar is about fear, which is why a lot of experienced dog owners are speaking out), you’ll find your dog teaches you more than you teach them.
@xobzoo And hey, I confess I’ve been the guy in this comic before. In this case, I don’t care about someone being wrong — I care about the welfare of the dogs. That’s it.
OK, so I guess I’ll weigh in. I unfortunately have experience with a similar collar. My dog was still young and still had some separation anxiety issues that had manifested themselves as a bout of barking when I left her alone, but that had mostly subsided. Until I had to move to another apartment. I spoke with the new neighbors about her barking until she settled in and they were very understanding when informing me that she barked, literally, all day while I was at work. After several days of this she was barking herself hoarse, the neighbors weren’t going to put up with it for long, and I still had to go to work.
I couldnt directly correct her behavior, because she didn’t have any issues except when she was alone. And I couldn’t use positive reinforcement until she wasn’t barking. Just showing her attention would reinforce that barking gets her what she wants, I would be reinforcing barking as a desirable behavior. I got a shock collar (activated by sensing a bark, no remote) and read a ton of training advice. I tried the collar out on myself to see how much it would hurt. The lowest 3 settings sucked, but I wouldn’t deem them cruel under supervision, and I had no intention of letting it get past the lowest setting anyway.
I took some time before work to work with her and the collar. (Listen, this fucking sucked, and I hated it, but I didn’t have time or space to use gentler techniques.) Without the collar I left the house and waited a few minutes listening to her bark, came back in, barking stops but I ignored her. Round 2 same thing; wait outside a bit longer. Ignore her for a bit longer. Then I gave her love and time to calm down. Then went for another set of leaves. No progress on her not barking at all. More loves and calming. Then I put the collar on her and repeated the process. She ignored the first level, and the whimper at the second level was heartbreaking, but she stopped barking and I counted to 10, rushed inside, took the collar off and gave her love and more time to relax. Had she persisted through the shocks, I would have discontinued using the collar right away, and not tried again. I repeated this one more time, she didn’t make it past the lowest level, no whimper, just a bark and then silence. Count to ten, rush inside, collar off, loves, treats, relaxation. Then I took the batteries out of the collar, and put it on her before leaving for work later. She didn’t bark at all according to the neighbors, but she did bark her excited greeting when I got home (phew, she wasn’t too stressed by the collar). I put the unpowered collar on her when I went to work the next day. No barking. Then I finally had a day off to work with her some more without the collar, but she had pretty much learned that barking wasn’t a variable in me leaving/coming home so we could focus more on reassuring her that I was always gonna come back and that she could be comfy in the new home.
It is a tool and there are times when it’s… justifiable, but I wouldn’t recommend a shock collar. It did work with my dog to expedite the training, which I felt was necessary at the time. However I’m confident I would have eventually been successful without it. I wouldn’t consider using one in the future.
Don’t buy this. Especially on a whim. It’s a very serious responsibility, won’t work the same for all dogs, and it’s a shitty experience all around.
Sorry, Meh, a deals website is not a place to responsibly sell these, if they can be responsibly sold to the general public at all.
@Oneroundrobb Amazon, Walmart & Target sell them… heck, even Chewy sells them. Why not a daily deal site?
@troy none of them should be selling them. If you really think you need one, you should be talking to your vet and/or a professional trainer. They can provide you with one and make sure you know how to use it properly. Deciding to use such extreme correction should not be done on impulse, and should not be convenient or cheap.
Edit to add… It’s really not a good look for an employee to be getting all defensive in the forums. Y’all gambled on a controversial products. Take the L and move on… It’s a shame, I thought I might regret canceling my VMP last month…
@Oneroundrobb @troy a) just because those companies sell them doesn’t make it right. b) Because meh sells ONE THING and depends on impulse buys, it puts a bad device in more people’s hands who might have ignored buying one otherwise, and c) meh can succeed without selling casual animal cruelty, but instead they’ve put this item front and center for cheap for 24 hours on a Sunday. It’s a very deliberate choice, and one that has turned myself (and I think many others) away as a customer or member.
The sheer volume of mental illness and absurd vitriol pouring out in response to this collar says more about the commenters than it does about the collar. If the collar works as advertised, this is a great deal. If you really have dogs and have dealt with dogs that respond to nothing else, then you already know this is a great tool for training and keeping a dog safe. Yes–SAFE. Not everyone lives in a human cage or on a postage stamp. Keeping dogs safe in natural settings often requires a collar like this, especially when training the pooch. Have any of you horrified snowflakes ever seen a dog that wouldn’t listen to commands or accept training be killed by a bobcat, coyote, bear, or poisonous snake? Didn’t think so. If you had, you’d know why these exist and why they are such a valuable tool.
@squishy459za YES! Most “city folks” just don’t get it. I got one because I have horses and a have a silly German Shepherd “puppy” who likes to chase them. Well the horses don’t like to be chased! I have seen him kicked in the head (just a glancing blow) and I have been terrified that he is going to be killed by one of my horses. The very first time I used the collar (2 days ago) seems to have corrected the problem. He has no interest in chasing horses anymore! So, tell me people, would it be better to let the horses kill my dog? Or for my dog to go through a couple of mild shocks?
Shockingly good deal today.
@yakkoTDI You got “shockingly” right.
So hypothetically, can this be used to train people too?
@canneddirt Absolutely.
@blaineg @canneddirt I think there is some merit to this. I might be enticed to start watching professional soccer again if they did this.
EXCEPT I don’t go at all for zapping an opposing player when they make a good play. But any player who gets away with a foul should be zapped immediately, at least with a 5. That includes pushing off when you are bringing up the ball. And at least a 4 to any player who flops. Any open kick that sails over the net should earn a zap, at least one number for each foot over the goal (or each 13 cm, in Europe). Maybe a 5 should go with a yellow card and a 6 with a red card?
Speaking of pushing off, they should also use these in the NBA (where the phrase “non-contact sport” has no meaning).
[OTOH, maybe those players already whine too much? But, whining could earn an additional zap.]
How about in the NFL, too, at least to reward the “adults” who do all the childish things after scoring a touchdown; the bigger the group, the higher the zap number! (Maybe an interactive audience vote on this via phone app or cable box remote?)
@blaineg @canneddirt @phendrick Sounds like you’re using Very Large centimeters.
@blaineg @canneddirt @rpstrong or Very Small Feet, but mine aren’t.
You’re right:
I was confusing 1 yard = 39 cm with one foot as 39 cm. (Should’ve googled first…)
We tried a beeping collar. Ended up with a dog that was frightened every time anything in the house beeped more than twice. When we had power outages and our UPS would start beeping the dog would freak until it was over. Got a UPS I could turn off the beeper, then the click of the relay scared the dog.
@senor_sriracha Thank you for sharing this story. Some folks are posting “my dog wasn’t traumatized by beeps.” And of course, not all dog will be. But the risk of something like this happening is very serious, and by sharing your story, it’s clear you meant the best for your dog and continue to for all dogs, but at the time you were sold a false bill of goods just like meh is doing now saying beeps aren’t harmful.
A lot of people are calling myself and others posting against this “righteous.” I’m not. I’m someone who has made a lot of mistakes with dogs, especially with my first dog, who was an angel who taught me more than I ever taught her despite the fact that I made many mistakes. I’m just trying to share what I’ve learned. And this collar — this ain’t it.
@Portmandia “you were sold a false bill of goods just like meh is doing now saying beeps aren’t harmful.”
Did you notice the part where that same dog is now afraid of the UPS relay clicking? Click trainers make a much louder and sharper noise than a UPS relay click, plus a UPS clicks once as it goes over to battery (and once again as it goes back to utility supply). Is click-training an abusive training method because some dogs are afraid of clicks?
You also noted in an earlier comment that you aren’t a professional dog trainer, you’ve just owned a lot of dogs. It’s truly terrible that some people use shock collars improperly or even deliberately abusively, but as somebody else noted, even mild electric shocks are a tool, one that professional trainers do recommend using in particular ways in certain situations with some dogs. And the idea that a beep as a training tool is inherently abusive is frankly too extreme to countenance — some dogs are shy of anything. Some dogs can and do become traumatized by a firm command voice. Training by giving treats or withholding them can cause food-guarding behavior issues in some dogs. If no dog can ever be trained by any method that might cause trauma or problem behavior for any dog, there are no acceptable training methods at all. Of course if your dog is traumatized by beeps you don’t use a beep collar to train it, but that doesn’t make a beep itself inherently abusive. It means you have to adjust to what works or doesn’t with a specific dog.
You apparently just don’t like training collars at all of any type in any situation, which is fine, but it doesn’t make you a morally superior person to somebody who uses them as recommended by a professional trainer to resolve problem behaviors quickly for the sake of the dog.
And for those who say “Meh shouldn’t sell these so cheaply”, coming at it purely from a harm-reduction perspective, which would you rather — somebody buy a cheap training collar like this, that comes with some instructions on proper use and is something professionals use as a tool and can further advise on proper use of, or have people who can’t afford a $300 training collar keep whacking the dog in the nose with an even cheaper stick? Because somebody who would abuse a dog with a cheap shock collar isn’t going to be a model dog owner just for the lack of one.
How many of you who are against this device are vegans? (No judgement here. Really just curious. Trying to understand it.)
@Kingmiwok It’s a good question. I am a meat eater. It’s something I’ve certainly wrestled with before. For instance, I stopped eating octopus because I think there’s strong evidence to suggest that they are sentient. But ultimately I have accepted that we have evolved to be omnivores. That doesn’t mean I’ve stopped trying to reduce animal cruelty when I can. For instance, I think there are few animals as tortured as an industrial egg-laying hen, and I raise chickens in my backyard and buy maybe a total of 2 dozen eggs a year during the deepest parts of winter. However, the reason I’m very concerned about dog welfare is that they are an animal whose evolution has been entirely guided by humans, and they are genetically programmed to love and trust humans, which is why a betrayal of that trust is so much more severe and damaging to a dog for their entire lives.
We live in a complicated world where it’s hard to always make choices that are devoid of suffering somewhere in the chain of ramifications. But that doesn’t mean that one is purely a hypocrite for being a meat eater and asking others to not electrocute their animal companions whose word for god is their owner. I do not claim to be perfect or holier than thou. I just think there are much better alternatives to electrocution and harsh beeps to train a dog, and I think using those techniques without the guidance of a professional who sees it as a training option of last resort will do far more harm than good in the world, and I hope folks consider that before buying this item. And I hope meh takes a meaningful hit to their memberships and sales because of this to send a message that their customers reject this sort of item soundly.
@Portmandia Thanks for the reply.
Don’t sell any of these to @yakkoTDI; we know wh
ato he’d use them on and where./showme A cute dachshund with a green hat
@mediocrebot That’s almost right, but that looks like three front feet.
/showme a bunch of morally outraged banana headed people in Portland.
@mediocrebot that’s more banana hands than head
@qazxto
Image checks out
The answer is very simple
This should be a two for Tuesday and if you put it on your dog you have to put it on yourself and there is one controller
I would be fine with someone using it like that
I am a dog lover/owner who lives in a rural area so our family is the dumping ground of unwanted dogs. Generally we have gotten through to all the dogs with love and verbal instruction but the instinctual reactions some breeds have can be tough to manage.
Ex a black lab jumping through a closed window to fetch a Frisbee at a cookout or the scent response of a beagle/blue tick hound mix (only dog of ours to have a dog run). Not sure this kind of collar would help
How well will this work on a middle-aged man wandering off their jogging path into a Dunkin’?
bad look meh. bad look.
I have not read all the comments on a Meh offering in quite a while, this was enlightening. @Portmandia, I appreciate your intensity of belief and purpose on this product. I do, however, feel like you lost a lot of folks with your psychoanalysis of the root cause of commentary. You obviously have a lot of experience with dogs, but you also appear to have an overinflated sense of your ability to know what others are thinking or have experienced. Your points could have been easily made without your acting like your recommendations for talk therapy were well grounded in your understanding of the individuals you were responding to.
We’re going to take a breather on this topic for now.
@Thumperchick
good call
I have seen this somewhere before.
“This is dumb and I’m not going to buy it” – 99.99% of things on meh.
@blaineg Of course someone beat me to it, but the point stands.
Internet people are dumb people
…says a person on the internet…
Brilliant.
“If you hate X does that mean you hate yourself.”
Man, I haven’t heard a rebuttal like that since first grade.
@Vladiator The answer is usually “yes”.
Does this have a use case in the bedroom?
Is this where the fighting is?
@amynedd I think it’s the abortion/gun control/politics/religion thread.
/showme morally outrage hypocrites complaining about something a dog wears
/showme electrified dog barking at the mailman
@medz Meh forum has AI image generation now?!
/showme cute dachshund with green hat
/showme cute dachshund with green hat
@GLaDOS has to be a comment and not a reply for showme to work.
Yay the Meh button is back at it again!
/showme man enjoying shock collar
/showme banana wearing shock collar
@mediocrebot Not what I expected. I guess it’s a banana colored shock collar of sorts? Maybe a banana colored shock harness?
It’s pretty simple:
Put a long leash on your dog and use small flags to mark the perimeter. Don’t feed your dog that morning and take them outside. When they get too close to the flags, set the beeper or vibration to go off, give the dog a small pull on the leash, and reward it with a few giblets of food.
and some pets. Repeat that several times, then see if you can do it without the leash. That’s step-by-step instructions we learned from a professional service dog trainer. Pavlov would have never gotten anywhere trying to punish a dog for not salivating.
Miss @Pavlov. Hope he’s well.
You’ve convinced me, I’m in for 2.
Specs
Product: PetSpy Dog Training Shock Collar for Medium to Large Dogs
Model: B079P16NMG
Condition: New
What’s Included?
Price Comparison
$49.99 at Amazon
Warranty
90 days
Estimated Delivery
Monday, Mar 6 - Wednesday, Mar 8
/showme a sketchy guy wearing a shock collar that also beeps, he’s also wearing high heels, at the laundry mat
Sketchy Guy at Laundry Mat (by ChatGPT)
The laundry mat was empty except for a sketchy guy wearing a shock collar that also beeps. He was wearing high heels and had a strange expression on his face. I tried to ignore him and focus on my laundry, but he kept staring at me. Suddenly, the collar beeped and he flinched. I couldn’t help but wonder what kind of punishment awaited him. I quickly finished my laundry and left, feeling uneasy. As I walked away, I heard the sound of high heels clicking behind me. I turned around and saw the sketchy guy following me. I quickened my pace and hurried away, hoping to never see him again.
@mediocrebot I wonder where he’s wearing it…
@awk Why is his dog wearing pants and shoes?
@heartny Only @mediocrebot knows. Maybe bot can also explain the cord going from the guy’s crotch to the dog.
This is a dubious offering
Yup, this product is going over as well as I expected.
https://topdogtips.com/dog-shock-collars-controversy/
/showme lightning puppies bondage
The /showme command is a member feature. Join membership to try it out.
@mediocrebot just reminded me from a distance to fall in line. Set on “beep” I 'spose. The tingle I felt was a slight disappointment only.
![][lightning puppies dali1]
/showme bad dog getting shocked at the dog park
Mom! I traumatized!
Why didn’t you use the beeping collar!??
I am truly leaving meh, the forums, everything (yes, I promise, @evmc, and I’m sorry if I’ve been tiresome). But this item is still for sale, and @kensey brought up some points that I think are very worthy of clarification, as this is a complexed, nuanced issue, where the nuance has been spread throughout my posts and straight-up missed at times. So I’m doing a summary post here.
I have a flair for the dramatic in my writing (I know, shock). I did get get nasty with a couple of posts that I saw as straight up right-wing shtposts, and if it appears to be a real human behind those, I don’t play with that (there were two posters – one with straight-up insults, another bragging about owning weapons). With anyone else actually wanting to discuss this, I have truly endeavored to give thoughtful replies, although there was one poster in particular I was snarky to (@ChompyGator), and I apologize if I stepped over the line. To anyone I offended or upset (other than the two shtposters I referred to), I sincerely apologize. To any snarky comments I made to meh, I do not apologize (see reasoning below).
I’m not trying to be morally superior. I’m just trying to keep dogs from being needlessly traumatized. Dogs, however, are as varied and complex as humans – if not more. Nothing is 100%.
One quick note to @kensey who replied to a post regarding a UPS beeping and clicking – regarding the UPS clicking triggers. I took that to be a case where the dog in question was traumatized by beeps. The UPS made a beep that was traumatizing and then the dog associated the traumatizing beeps with the clicks which became their own trigger. I’m actually not a big fan of clicker training in general, but with many dogs (particularly active sporting/occupational dogs), they can clearly be a fantastic tool, and I think it is a sound that is less likely to physically hurt a dog’s ears (as beeping can depending on volume and pitch). As long as the dog clearly doesn’t flinch or show discomfort when the click happens, it can be a fine training tool.
To summarize my full view:
I am generally against training collars because I am nearly universally against causing any degree of pain or discomfort for a dog as part of their training, even relatively minor pain. Dogs can associate all sorts of things with pain and trauma, and every dog is different. There is not one way to train all dogs. However, I am in favor of positive reinforcement training as much as possible. There are three reasons I am particularly upset that meh is selling this device, and collectively this is why I (and I think a few others) are ending their relationship with meh over this:
Finally, to reply to @kensey on the question which would I rather have, somebody using a cheap training collar like this with some instruction, or someone who continues to “train” their dog with a cheap stick. I consider this question to be a false dichotomy. Such a person shouldn’t own a dog period – that’s the only answer I can give.
Again, I am sorry if I upset anyone who has a sincere concern about dog safety with my more passionate replies. But if I discouraged anyone from buying this who might have used it without extensive research, consideration, and/or professional help, I am happy I helped prevent even one dog from experiencing a traumatizing event.