Contests/Events?
11So I know I’ve been a little absent of late (mostly new job/traveling and such) but even when lurking it seems there hasn’t been much in the way of contests or interactive threads (i.e. the draw a line, then build on the picture thing) lately.
That kind of thing always seems good for forum engagement, so just wondering, is it just me or has that stuff slowed down? If so, I’d like to see more of that.
- 5 comments, 47 replies
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Is this the place to complain that I never got my fantasy football prize from last year? No? Never mind then.
@sammydog01 I didn’t get anything for Irk answering my question either.
@RiotDemon
You got Rashomon’d.
That’s a huge prize.
/image Rashomon
@RiotDemon I got abused for Irk answering my question.
@sammydog01 I wasn’t abused, just called a psychopath
@RiotDemon
Irk ever met you in person?
I think some of the staff who ran them have moved on. Plus, there has been a few that haven’t been followed up on/no winners announced etc, like this one, which is kind of frustrating.
If they are done in the future, I hope there is more planning, and more rules and stuff laid out up front. A few of the giveaways have technically been ran in a not so legal way.
They are quite fun to participate in though, even if the winner just gets bragging rights.
@lichme
Cough @JonT Cough
@PlacidPenguin Well, it’s not just lack of stuff being followed through on. For example, this product contained an event which was an illegal lottery because it involved a prize, consideration (in this case a purchase), and chance (guessing the last number of the # of sold units). Prize increased based off of how much was purchased. Yes, it was a cool thing to do, but it was illegal.
@lichme
May as well throw this in.
@lichme we actually explored this back at Woot and had a legal thesis developed to support our ability to double anyone’s order we pleased. Whether we did this randomly or as a matter of undefined preferential treatment was irrelevant. The people ordering need to be satisfied with what they are ordering without receiving double. i.e. a key difference is a raffle ticket has no inherent value at all.
edit: scanning over the Quora link provided reminds me of what a mess it is and I’d probably have to refresh my legal opinion to defend this properly. It comes down to defensibility in a gray area and most businesses seek to avoid that by following a clearest path.
@snapster Is that why catshirtswoot decided to double my last order?
@snapster From what I understand, and I will admit I’m no expert, the issue is with the chance aspect of it.
If you were to double the order of everybody who made a purchase, without requiring them to happen to vote for the correct number, it would be okay.
If you allowed people to win with no purchase necessary, it would be okay.
If you chose winners based on some sort of criteria or skill with a panel of judges, that would be okay too.
I’d be interested in seeing the thesis or an explanation of how it doesn’t fall into the classification of an illegal lottery, when it meets all the criteria.
I believe even holding a contest where the prize is just announced as “a prize”, and not declared ahead of time is also not allowed. A value has to be assigned to it and clearly disclosed. Not an issue with the above one I referenced, but others it is applicable.
I am in no way mad about it (okay, maybe a little about unannounced winners), this stuff just interests me.
@lichme aha that may be we crossed a line there then when we had to solve for not having order numbers here like we did at Woot (woot concept was your order number ending integer matching the Dow ending)
@snapster I recall reading about that (way after the fact), but the same issue (winning by chance) would apply in that scenario.
Basically, if you require consideration (purchase, or anything that involves more than filling out a basic form really), then the winner(s) cannot be determined by chance, there has to be some sort of determining criteria.
For instance, if a contest is held on the forum for a photoshop/haiku/caption contest or whatever, since it takes effort for a user to create an image, write a haiku, or think of a caption, the user has to be chosen by a factor such as most votes, or determined by an expert judge etc. A name cannot simply be picked out of a hat.
On the other hand, if you do want to just pick a name out of a hat, you can have a “no purchase necessary” type entry, where a user can just copy and paste an a premade submission to enter.
Here is a good example of the correct way to do it from woot.
It’s complicating, but not complicating, and tons and tons of people don’t know all of the rules, so it’s easy to overlook.
@lichme agree that following that framework is the clearest path to avoid risk of illegal lottery but it may not be the only path. Our thesis contemplated these matters but it was never tested as a defense. Someday I’ll have a fresh review done.
As a “for instance” example of another path: if the buyer doesn’t know he is entering a lottery, all the illegal lottery stipulations can apply and yet there is no illegal lottery. The suggested framework is oversimplified.
@snapster Indeed, there are some loopholes in which having all of the three elements for an illegal lottery don’t count as an illegal lottery. In the above case, since it wouldn’t be announced, then the company running the sweepstakes wouldn’t have had an opportunity to profit off of it. That is the reason why we see sweepstakes that have rules such as “Purchase must have been made prior to the start of the sweepstakes”.
However, if a sweepstakes/contest is announced, there should be clearly laid out rules as to the eligibility requirements, how the winner will be determined, a specific end date, what the prize is (especially if consideration is in play), how and when a winner will be determined, how a list of winners can be obtained etc. Smart companies also have disclaimers such as “<Company> reserves the right to modify these rules…”
Things like “Ask Irk” and “Goat Prizes” get into that foggy area as well. Is that considered a contest, or an instance of “we felt like sending somebody something so we did”? There isn’t specifically a guarantee laid out in the original thread, but it is implied that there may be some kind of prize for having your question asked.
Is the history of people being awarded prizes for these things in the past enough to establish that this is a contest? Is meh obligated to send people stuff to goats/Irk askers until they formally announce they are no longer doing it? Right now, there is an assumption that if you are goat, or if your question gets asked, that you get a prize, however it’s not laid out. The more information a company gives up front, the better protection they have against lawsuits.
Again, not wanting to discourage meh from doing these types of things as they really are fun and enjoyed by all, but I am curious.
@lichme given that the marketer benefiting might be a hidden stipulation, one could categorize that this is a consumer protection law. Pursuit of a company would generally then be on the basis of a harmed consumer, even if the consumer willingly agreed to be harmed. The major dismissal point to win in defense of an action is that no consumer was harmed. An interesting expansion of your observation on technically risky sweepstakes is that the BOC and the Fuko/Fuku each technically are the same thing as the stock market matching scenario. Just amplify the chaos and introduce snarky play-it-down language that you shouldn’t be buying it at all. In this case, pointing to Amazon as smarter on sweepstakes and yet still selling BOCs is folly.
@snapster
What about non-random, non-arbitrary criteria that must be judged?
Such as: these are the top three purchasers whom the staff would most like to hit in the head with an ax.
(I’m in a GOT mood at the moment)
Would that work, legally?
Also, suppose a mehmber is chosen as Dec 2016 Goat? (Non-random). (Like me).
Then suppose this person, having been Goat, wants a Goat prize and won’t shut up about it? (Non-random).
(I’m getting there, gimme time).
Then it’s not really a lottery, no?
Also gimme my Goat prize already.
@snapster I’ve always viewed BOC/Fuku/Fukos as sort of a lottery, and they are a great example of another one of the foggy areas that I’m not qualified to elaborate on. Say I spend $100 on a mystery box (they exist), and say the value of the contents I get are only $30. The company has a policy that I can’t return mystery items? Do I now have damages?
On top of just the BOC type situation, one can take a look at services like loot crate, where everybody gets the same items typically, but somebody is usually chosen at random to win a larger item/bonus item (similar to getting a BOC letter). Just now, while looking it up, I see that loot crate has a no purchase necessary option to be eligible to win the “Mega Crate”, which is probably to avoid being classified as a lottery situation. Even if BOCs alone fall into a loop hole, does sending out letters to randomly selected people for additional, higher value items constitute a lottery? Technically, should people who don’t buy a BOC be entitled to enter to win one of these “other item” letters? Should woot be allowed to draw names for the letters, see that somebody has already been chosen, then pick somebody else instead to spread the love? These are all questions I have had, but I wouldn’t even know where to start to try and get answers to. “Maybe it bugs me more than it should”.
@f00l As long as there was listed criteria of why the judges would want to hit somebody in the head with an axe, and participants had the opportunity to meet that criteria before making their submissions, that would be acceptable, assuming that the company did in fact guarantee that there would be a prize for the winning participant(s).
@lichme
What if the entire contest was secret and unannounced until the winners had been chosen?
No leaked knowledge of the contest or the criteria?
The staff at Meh might or might not wish to encourage more “make me want to hit you in the head with an ax” conduct among their purchasers; esp if such conduct were being deliberately gamed and punched up with knowledge of the competition.
@f00l It wouldn’t qualify as an illegal lottery on the basis that winners weren’t chosen by random. It probably wouldn’t be considered a contest at all, it would be meh giving people stuff because they felt like it (for whatever reason), which is perfectly legal.
Now, if the contest was announced, and meh intentionally provoked a user into doing something that would favor a win, that would probably be an issue, but proving it would probably be difficult.
(Above is my opinion, and shouldn’t be taken as fact or legal advice)
@lichme - you could vote on that thread without having made a purchase
@Kidsandliz In this case it’s irrelevant, since the value of the prize is directly correlated to how much you spend (not allowed). It’s possible to have had a winning guess, but still no prize if you didn’t make a purchase.
@lichme No there was a post in that thread that if you bought nothing you still could play and win
@Kidsandliz Where are you seeing that? I see the following:
By my math, 76+12+1 = 91. If non buyers won, at least 328 people would have won.
@lichme there was something about sending 2 not double your order but sending 2
@Kidsandliz Totals were confirmed and there was no mention in them. You may be thinking of some other event? People who bought 1 would be mad if they purchased and only got one, when somebody who didnt purchase got two.
I think the big wigs realized efforts are better placed elsewhere when profit is the goal. They know people will buy crap even if there is no fun stuff on the forums.
They just did fun things just long enough to build a big enough fan base who would argue that this is a cool place and you should totally buy stuff from them. Since that loyal following is established, now they can move on to making real money by cutting out the fun.
@medz
I thought @snapster still had his original hair (attached to his head, not laying around).
But in all seriousness, yeah, you pretty much summed up what any company does when they make it interactive. They’re ultimately in it for the money (obviously), and are interactive in order to ensure people keep coming back.
@PlacidPenguin You’re probably thinking of Dave. Now that dude has a nice head of hair on him! He’s so youthful and virile!
You’re right, though. The dusting of synthetic fibers atop snapster’s head wouldn’t really classify as a “big” wig.
Am I spozed to get something for enduring a month as Goat?
@f00l
Didn’t you deny being goat?
@PlacidPenguin
I don’t remember denying anything.
Therefore I deny that I ever denied.
/giphy "de Nile"
@PlacidPenguin That was you! @ignorant spent the whole month on paws too in spite of his name spelling out what he is. iGnOrAnT.
Pending for me is being source material for an “ask Irk” and two Glen segments.
@narfcake
How do I get my awesome reward-thing?
@f00l The same way anyone else gets their stuff – by pestering the staffers! Start from the innocent, like @hollboll and @galmaegi, and work your way up to the Chief Executive Octopus @snapster.
Obviously that’s been working, as you can see the over abundance of speaker docks and catshirts sold here at meh in the past year.
/s
@narfcake
A bit interesting that you make a reference to catshirts…
@shawn - Any chance we could have a counter which says how many minutes it’s been since @narfcake mentioned catshirts? Because OBVIOUSLY it won’t be hours.
@PlacidPenguin
/giphy cat timer
@narfcake
We both know that 33 seconds would be too much if we timed you thinking about them.
@narfcake
You forgot to count all the irrational pico-seconds.
@f00l NO. And I served longer than you did, so me first anyway.
@OldCatLady
I will defer to the person who pointed me to Florence King.
Dibs on getting one before @ignorant tho.
PS I also nobly kept on be the Goat until the icon changed over.
You are not the only Goat with True Honor.
@PlacidPenguin Only 293 results searching for “catshirts site:meh.com”. That’s higher than my actual count, though lower than I expected.
Well if you want an interactive thread start one.
@CaptAmehrican Lots of folks just don’t trust unofficial contest/events.
@CaptAmehrican @medz That and I just think it would be more likely a success when sponsored by our local celebrities (mods). That said, this thread got much more interactive than I expected.
@CaptAmehrican I did run a contest to give away Irk. @mikibell won, and I don’t think she’s forgiven me yet.
@OldCatLady Contest? It was just your own private fuko (getting rid of unwanted stuff on unsuspecting participants)
@compunaut Your point?
/giphy your point
@OldCatLady
It’s on the top of your head.
(ducks fast)